In the report of our Church Auditors contained in our 2008 Calvary Church Annual Report, our auditors have highlighted their concern over the CCC under “Emphasis of Matter”. Their report states:-
“Without qualifying our opinion, we draw attention to the Note 1(a) to the financial statements. The Church has contracted capital expenditures of RM80,955,054 in respect of Calvary Convention Centre as at 31 December 2008, and as at that date, the balance of the Church’s fixed deposits is RM19,596,603. The ability of the Church to meet its liabilities is dependent on the availability of external funds and continue contribution from the members to provide adequate funds for the Church to meet its liabilities when they fall due.”
No one can really fault the auditors for voicing their concern. This statement is very much in line with accounting standards and the code of corporate governance and transparency. Nevertheless, it is also a timely warning for the members to take heed of.
The CCC has been fraught with controversies right from the beginning. If the members recall, the project was supposed to cost only RM50 million excluding land cost. From the initial project budget of RM50 million, it has quickly ballooned to RM150 million.
When it was first announced that the church was spending RM35 million to purchase the 4.9 acre land in Bukit Jalil, it had caused a flurry of, albeit, relatively silent protests from the members. It was a hefty price to pay for a small piece of land especially when it was during a time of economic slowdown when property prices were going a-begging.
The subsequent appointment of Ken Yeang, a freemason to design the CCC was another controversy. Despite being informed of this fact by a few members and also Dr Lum, SP and the Deacons continued with the award to Ken Yeang.
The approval for the initial construction budget of RM50 million was again controversial. During that unforgettable AGM, members were asked to stand to give praise to God after a presentation of the CCC. As soon as the members stood to their feet and began praising God, SP quickly announced that he took it that their standing up was indicative of their support and approval for the project. That ‘sleight of hand’ maneuver did not go well with the members.
At the last year’s AGM, the members were told that construction cost and material costs had escalated greatly and to keep within the RM100 million construction budget, they will only build the sanctuary fully and leave the rest of the building as “shell and core” (bare cement rendered without finishes or electrical installations) which will be un-useable for the time being. In essence, it meant that the eventual cost after full completion of the whole project will be higher than RM150 million. The budget for furnishing the sanctuary and AV equipment remain at RM50 million. Subsequently, the Board of Deacons granted a RM80 million construction contract to Nam Fatt Bhd, a listed construction company with a poor balance sheet which is a risk to begin with.
The concern now highlighted by the auditors is real. The church does not have enough money to pay for the construction. Even with the RM35 million loan provided by Alliance Bank, there remains a big shortfall. Of course, the church leaders will ask, where is our faith? But apart from faith, God has also given us wisdom to plan and to make wise decisions.
One reader commented that there has been no work done at the CCC site in the last 4 weeks that he has driven by. Could it be that the contractor has abandoned the project? Is CCC on the verge of failing?
With the controversies and concerns the CCC has caused, there arise one question that begs a serious answer. Is CCC a vision from God or is it the vision and ambition of a man?
If CCC is God’s vision, why would God want a freemason, Ken Yeang to design His house? The Deacons may argue that actually it was Ken Yeang’s assistants who did much of the designing work and that the assistants are not freemasons. This is childish argument because it will still be recognized as a Ken Yeang design. Ken Yeang, at the onset, had told the members that he plans to put CCC on the world map with its iconic design. He made no effort to hide his ambition to gain international fame through this project. Naturally, if that happens, it will also bring great fame to SP. How can such ambitions for self-glory be in line with God’s will?
If CCC is God's vision, why does He want a design for His Temple, which resembles a cobra head and an outline that resembles a pharaoh’s coffin? See photos below.
If CCC is God’s vision, why was there a need to apply for approval under the guise of building a convention centre and not a church, for fear of not getting approval from the authorities? If indeed it is the will of God, nothing can stop the project even if the church came out upfront and tell the authorities that CCC is a church. This fact was highlighted by a ruling political party member in his blog where he alleged (mistakenly, of course) that our church banner at the CCC site displaying the words "Adanya Harapan....There is Hope" is linked to the Opposition Leader, who has used the tagline "Harapan" in his political propaganda.
If CCC is God's vision, why was there a need to keep feeding members with half-truths about the actual costing and be evasive when questioned during AGMs and EGMs? Surely God will want the leaders to be truthful and transparent in everything.
If CCC is God’s vision, why does the pastors and deacons need to think of all kinds of ways to get the members to give? Why do they need to encourage the members to sell paper bricks to non-members and non-Christian friends? Everything on earth belongs to Him. Our God is a rich God; He does not need to beg. He can open the windows of heaven and pour His blessings on the CCC that we have to tell the members to stop giving because we have more than enough. Why is this not happening? SP and his Pastors and Deacons can point their fingers at the TTG group but the TTG group certainly cannot thwart the will of God.
So is CCC God’s vision or man’s vision? God’s vision will always materialize, man’s vision will always fail.
Take Calvaryland, for example. This project costs the church RM10 million for the land and buildings and today it houses only 6 residents. For the same amount, the church could have bought at least 30 houses and cater to hundreds of orphans and homeless. The wanton waste of money for the Calvaryland cannot possibly be the will of God. So is Calvaryland God’s vision or man’s vision?
The 2nd example is the vision for a 5,000 seating church in Sri Hartamas many years ago. After much time and effort spent, even with visiting pastors having poured oil onto the land to anoint and make claim on it, yet nothing materialized. So was that God’s vision or man’s vision?
The 3rd example is the vision for a 3,000 seating sanctuary at our present DH site, with provisions to increase to 5,000 seating. Because of that vision, the church embarked on buying up many of the neighboring houses. Now, the church is trying to sell those houses to pay for CCC and in this time of economic downturn, it will likely be at a loss. So was that God’s vision or man’s vision?
With so much controversy concerning the CCC and with hind knowledge of SP’s misadventures with his visions, how then can the members be certain that CCC is indeed God’s vision. Because if it is not so, it will spell financial disaster for the church. Not only can the church lose the CCC land but the bank (if the church defaults in repayment) will also auction off the DH properties which are charged to the bank in respect of the CCC loan.
The current saga will not destroy Calvary Church but the CCC will, if it is not God’s will and God's vision.
[click picture to enlarge]
61 comments:
And the auditors are finally speaking.... I hope they will continue to speak with neither fear not favour during AGM. May the fear of God be with all during the AGM. May He allow all associates members and proxies to attend the AGM.
Calvarites, check it out. I have a client in Bukit Jalil and I drove past the CCC site four times the last four weeks for my meetings, the last trip was only last Tues 9 June. And each time I drove past I didnt see one single worker on site. More interesting was that the tower crane closer to the main road was at the same position each time I drove past. You may say that they were having their breaks. But at every time I drove past? Not possible. Anyway you dont have to believe what I say. I would encourage you to take a drive the next few days and see it for yourself.
all i can say is that I am sick and tired of what the leadership has done to the church. due to them trying to cover up for their wrongdoings, they have caused church members to fight amongst each other, attacking one another and using terrible words on one another. God is going to hold Prince Guneratnam and the BOD accountable for all the hurts and strife this has caused the church IF they don't repent.
The extravagance of CCC project has always been of much concern to many members but we dare not raise our concerns openly for fear of being branded as men of little faith.
It is good that now Calvary Today has brought all matters into the open. If it is not God's vision it will fail. But if it is God's will and plan it will become a reality.
No amount of human manipulation will make the man's vision come true. If it is man's vision it only brings sorrow and strife and God will not be pleased.
BUT if it is God's Vision His Name alone will be glorified!
Brother Han
While all of us who read the blog may or may not believe what CT says, can u truthfully tell us what is happening? U are in deacon in charge of CCC from the very start, we count on you to come online and verify this matter.
If u do not reply, then we will take it to mean, it is true.
IN PURSUIT OF TRUTH
Hey CCC progress
You sudah blind lah! I live just a stone throw away from opposite CCC, and I see workers there ALL THE TIME! I see them buying food from those traders on motorbikes at night! I drove past day time and I saw architects and engineers walking in and out the site. What is this man? You are making such a false assumption here.
This is a plain lie by CCC progress. Next time, check your facts before coming up with erroneous statements.
While we agree that the CCC cost is exhorbitantly high, what if this is indeed God's project? Our human reasoning CANNOT comprehend God's method of working after all.
To whoever CCC progress is, I dare you to drive past that place again and walk into the site!!
This is indeed very enlightening but frightening. How can we then go to worship on Sundays services in CCC with the thought of the Pharaoh coffin?
As a new voting member, I could see and sense that from the very beginning itself there were many signals and signs of reproofs from God towards the CCC project i.e 1) how PG manipulated the actions of members' standing after the presentation on CCC as an "approval" by members for the construction budget of RM50 million, 2) Ken Yeang as a freemason, 3) lying to the authorities about the building (not a church) etc.
Yes, we calvarites MUST ask ourselves and seek the Lord's wisdom and discernment as to whether CCC is actually God's will or PG's will.
I remember there were a few occasions when I attended the Friday prayer meetings, during the corporate prayers where we gathered at the front to pray, I had this vision of many "angels" (not of God but satan) flying around the people and smiling. This experience did not happen once or twice but quite a number of times. I tried my best to "get rid" of this vision if you know what I mean. Of course I was scared and I kept on asking the Lord, what do these visions mean.
I've never told anyone about this until now. When I think back, each Friday prayer meetings the people present would pray for CCC. Now, is this 'coincidence' or what? I never believe in coincidence because everything is "God-incidence". He knows and He allows things to happen for His reasons which we may never understand.
I seek you bros and sisters, to enlighten me as to what could the visions above mean. Is CCC God's vision or PG's vision?
As CC members we should be at freedom to bring all our concerns before the leadership but we are unable to do so because the leadership refuses to listen to any differing opinions.
In fact PG and BOD just force their way through. I remember when I was at CC AGM or EGM Ken Yeang announced so proudly that he wanted CCC to be known by people as a Ken Yeang building. I felt very uneasy and thought why should a person be so adamant about his design when it is a church which is intended for worship and meant to show forth God's glory not man's glory?
Shouldn't CC pastors and BOD be humble and wait upon God for His design and divine leading and why so insistent to spend so lavishly on just the building, AV equipment and fittings when we could have spent more for saving souls? Didn't the Lord emphasised that the Church is the Body of Christ not the physical building?
Too many questions are brought up and too many blunders by PG about God's vision so far. Where is the Lord's anointing we wonder? Why so many distractions and diversions?
Things are just not right. The waiting has been too long.
CC members have been too forgiving and outrightly too naive and conniving!But no longer now...we have been awakened by the truth.
Thank God that our eyes have been opened and the truth been revealed to members and worshippers... otherwise more moneys will be wrongly channelled to CCC project.
Cool it bro. God is my witness, I did not lie. As I have said, I drove past the site four times. I did not stop or go into the site. So each time when I drove past, I just looked at the building above the hoarding. I couldnt see what was on the ground as it was covered by the hoarding. So each time I looked up during the short duration while driving, I DID NOT SEE any workers in the building. AND the tower crane closer to the main road was pointing at the same position each time. I just described what I saw. Simple as that. And I did not see any workers neither did I see the crane moving at all during each time.
So dont jump to conclusion and call people liar.
By the way, how could you tell by looking at the people on site that they are architects and engineers? Maybe you should teach us Calvarites that. By just looking at the people on site, you could tell that they are architects and engineers? Unless you know them yourself.
Moreover you said that you saw the architects and engineers walked in and out of the site. You must have been helping the church to supervise the works on site to be able to see them walking in and out.
Yes, I will definitely go to site within the next few days, and walk to the site to have a closer look. If they allow me to go in, that is.
Thank you brother.
i heard from close friends from another church that they have been praying about moving into a 3000 sitting church and the project was only kicked off this march.
Now i heard news that they will be moving in to the new church LATEST by December 2009!
Some of the things that amazed me was :
1) It seemed that God had truly prepared the building for this church because it had so much space and it was merely used as a gym-equipment sales room.
2) There was a huge banner across the main lobby that said "FAITH" and when the pastor asked the owner of the warehouse "Why do you have that banner there?" , the owner literally said "I don't know".
3) God had spoken to a number of different businessman and one businessman came to their pastor and said "Pastor, i feel God saying in myu heart to give a good offering toward the building fund.. and i feel God may very well be speaking to me about purchasing the entire building for you!"
When i hear this, it hit me that when you are really doing God's will, God will make the paths straight, and cause everything to just fall into place.
Look at the result of the CCC - funds have stopped flowing; architect has questionable background; prime contractor is on the verge of bankruptcy; nobody knows how the tender was awarded to Nam Fatt; the best part = a truly incredible DIVISION in the church.
So many problems. I'm sure the church administration will try to shrug away these problems as merely 'obstacles' that the enemy has put in place.
We christians sometimes keep asking for God's will and when God DOES reveal to us (through 'signs' like these), we ignore the signs and instead give justification for it.
Calvary Church memang habis la.
Can the church leadership tell us the actual progress of the CCC on site? Dont just show us video of the works on site.
1. What is the percentage of work done on site?
2. When is the CCC expected to be completed.
It is mentioned in the church Annual Report that we just received for the coming AGM on 19 June that the building contract with Nam Fatt ends in Oct 2009.
I know this is only wishing thinking for me to expect the church leadership to respond
That is the problem with CC. No way we can communicate and get some answers.
Of course, they will always say that we dont have to wait for AGM to bring up issues. They will say, "Come and see us anytime. We can talk in my office."
Bottomless pit of $$$
We are staring a financial catastrophe... it is a case of Ambition, SELF -Confidence & Arrogance of PG.
In his 'calculation' he is well connected in the world stage, besides the generous and sacrificial giving of the congregation running into $ millions Surplus, year after year, and so he thought.. it will keep coming in, and US100 Million is 'nothing' to him.
And the troubling sign is even the "leap in Faith' has been renamed "The Miracle Card"
The CCC will bankrupt the church of the FD it has accumulated ( is this hoarding?) and all the properties it now owns, and still not enough to fill the bottomless pit of the multi-millions required.
A wise man once told me in any financial ventures to protect what you have; you can afford not to have extras but you can't afford what you already have.
We have 2 fully paid up church properties in Damansara Heights and Damansara Perdana.
We can afford to drop CCC even though it will be very painful, but we definitely cannot lose the above mentioned properties.....
However, if the church leadership continue to borrow another RM45m
to fund CCC, then this maybe their next step. Must remember they in the past go ahead with buying many things (like Jim's audi equipment) without coming to the members for rectification. This is very dangerous from a financial point of view.
During the leap of faith, PG indicated if we give by faith we can expect miracles. Since it is his vision to see CCC to completion, will he show leadership by example by pledging his private 4 properties to give towards CCC, then believe that the Lord will bless him back.
This is submitted to both CT & CU ...
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I would like to make some observation on CalvaryLand ... the writer of the Article (posted in CT) said:
"Take Calvaryland, for example. This project costs the church RM10 million for the land and buildings and today it houses only 6 residents. For the same amount, the church could have bought at least 30 houses and cater to hundreds of orphans and homeless. The wanton waste of money for the Calvaryland cannot possibly be the will of God. So is Calvaryland God’s vision or man’s vision?"
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The vision & work of CalvaryLand is to touch lives and bring comfort and change to the poor, oppressed, neglected, outcasts ... those who are hurting and have nowhere to go ... this is surely the heartbeat of God our Father. And when this project was mooted, did not ALL of us (and I would like to think this includes the writer as well) whole-heartedly supported it because we KNEW that this IS God's vision without a shadow of doubt.
So, why the question and doubt now?
As we are all aware, for God's vision to become a reality, His children must willingly become partners and give themselves to the vision. Perhaps somewhere along the way, we took our eyes off this vision. There was no news or encouragement from the church leaderhsip to give and support this vision/project. Suddenly there was silence. I am sure that the church continued to support CalvaryLand financially but this vision/project somehow was "taken off the radar screen" and in due time, hardly anything was heard of it anymore.
But we must surely thank and praise God that through the commitment of some members and through His grace, CalvaryLand was completed and opened its doors in December 2006. If this is not God's hand and providence, then what is? If this is not God’s ensuring His vision marches forward, then what is?
Yes, I agree that CalvaryLand has since continue to "struggle" along and has not really "taken off" as it was meant to be. It is far from reaching its full potential, of what God intends. This I feel is due to the lack of support and focus the church gives to it. But thank God for people like Pastor Shereen, Teck Chin and others who remain faithful to their calling to serve in this area! And thank God for the lives it has touched and is touching – even it is not many at the moment.
Is CalvaryLand God's vision? Of course! Can it bloom to become what God wants it to be? Of course! But this needs your prayer, your financial support and your time and effort. If for some reason the church leadership does not rise to the call, then let each of us who are concern and feel strongly for the poor, outcasts, hurting, neglected in society, etc... ask ourselves, ask CalvaryLand what we can do to fulfil God's vision for CalvaryLand.
Is CalvaryLand God's vision? You bet! .... And God is waiting for you and me to fulfil it ....
And to all those who are serving in CalvaryLAnd ... May God continue to bless you and your family as you give yourself in obedience to Him.
God Bless!
CCC - IT IS ALL ABOUT ARROGANCE
It is the arrogance of the one man who insisted on making unilateral decisions and ignoring the cries of his church members. And it is secondarily the arrogance of the BOD & PG2 who chose to listen to PG1 rather than give a little consideration of the voices of the people. It is all arrogance of the human flesh.
You must live by the principle you hold dear. iF you believe in making unilateral decisions, then seek for the finance unilaterally.
Dear CCC Progress,
You said, "I drove past the site four times."
I am saying, "I drive past the site four times in a day!". I live just around the corner!
You said, " I did not stop or go into the site."
So I am asking, just because you saw from outside the old rugged zinc and the position of the crane has not moved, what makes you think they have stopped working? You are jumping into conclusion here man!
You said, "I couldnt see what was on the ground as it was covered by the hoarding."
I am saying, isn't that jumping into conclusion, then coming online and simply make everyone press the panic button??? UNNECESSARILY???? Wahlau man...
You said, "So each time I looked up during the short duration while driving, I DID NOT SEE any workers in the building."
I am saying, I can not see your brain cells, does that mean you have no brain???
You said, "So dont jump to conclusion and call people liar."
I am now saying, people who have no facts simply sound the cymbal for no apparent reasons are liars. So don't go pass such comments unnecessarily until you have confirmed your facts are proven true. Its people like you who birthforth new rumour mongers all the time. And because of what you've written, some church people are spreading these to non-Christians all over the place. Don't you think you have caused some division yourself by not checking your statements properly? I am very angered by people like you who seems to like troubles in the church! Aisay...
You asked, "By the way, how could you tell by looking at the people on site that they are architects and engineers?"
I am saying, draw man must draw intestine and liver and lung and heart??? Oooppsss.. I forgot, I can't see your braincells at work!
You said, "Maybe you should teach us Calvarites that. By just looking at the people on site, you could tell that they are architects and engineers?"
I now wanna say, maybe I could teach YOU NOT to spread rumours unnecessarily brother!!
You said, "Unless you know them yourself."
I am saying, hey I wanna know the truth. I live just a few minutes drive away. Can't I just stop by and chat with the workers there to see waht is the progress like? Do I need to depend on people like you to pass falsified statements and ballooned up assumptions that continues to widen the divide further? I say, I say...
You said, "Moreover you said that you saw the architects and engineers walked in and out of the site. You must have been helping the church to supervise the works on site to be able to see them walking in and out."
I am now saying again, I say man, what I do near the site, whether to run the park opposite CCC, or to stop by the Chee cheong Fun motorbike trader outside the site sometimes, is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. Once again, do what you do best, come up with an assumption and say I supervise workers. Now, i'm going to supervise YOU passing false comments here!! I am dedicating my time at this site to WATCH YOU!
You said, "Yes, I will definitely go to site within the next few days, and walk to the site to have a closer look."
I am now saying, CONGRATULATIONS BROTHER!! That's it! Go there and check it out for yourself! Finally, your braincells is revived! And after you have check it out, I will apologise for my stupid statements above. I promise you that!! Mark my words!
You said, "If they allow me to go in, that is."
I am now saying, if they don't allow you to go in (I am quite sure they won't), go to the park opposite CCC, exercise a bit, go to the highest peak and look down. Its a beautiful sight. Then you will see workers working. Come by at night. Go to the club next to it, then come take a walk around the area at night when it was cooling. See the Indon workers coming out and taking some fresh air outside. That is the bestest time for evangelism since they are building the CCC.
I promise you brother, I will apologise to you after you have visited the site personally.
Thank you brother.
To Discernment Needed
If indeed Calvaryland was God's vision, don't you agree that whoever was given this vision in the first place, either SP and or his wife, should be fervently following up and working hard to accomplish what God desires for Calvaryland?
Just because members supported the project financially in the beginning, that does not mean SP and or his wife can wash their hands off and passed the buck to the members. Remember God did not give the vision to members first.
If it is truly God's vision, then SP has failed God and wasted the members' money because he has now abandoned God's vision and pursuing his latest CCC vision. This means that CCC is not God's vision because God will never give SP a second vision to distract him from the first vision.
If God can't trust SP with little (Calvaryland), can He trust SP with much (CCC)? Think about it.
Dear CCC Progress is a Liar
You have said so many harsh insulting words (You're probably not a Christian but we forgive you for your crude words)but you did not confirm that you actually saw the workers working on the project.
You only saw them walking in and out, buying food and taking fresh air out in the evening. That doesn't mean they are working. Even if the project is temporary stopped, the workers still need to walk in and out to buy food because they live on the site.
Whether you drive by 4 times a month or 4 times a day is irrelevant. I'm also very puzzled why you are so free to hang around there to watch out for "CCC Progress".
I think many members will drive by to check out, so if you see them, please be kind to them and give them a tour of the site.
ENOUGH OF VAIN TALK!
Discernment Needed
It’s precisely the kind of ‘defense’ & ‘justification’ you put-up that deflect the truth--and those responsible never get to be held accountable, and they happily continue with pay Lip Service to all they promote in the name of Evangelism!
All the leaflets/pamplets CC produced are full of Superlatives, Nobel intentions, littered with bombastic expressions— of advertising genre!
Here are some examples in the leaflet ‘Calvary land’ May 09:
‘ “ to Impact Society “One Life at a time” ‘ ( this sounds deeply touching, ironically, it is literally what is happening—Calvary Land has 6 Residents,
over 31/2 years in operation.
Can you bear they are so pleased to report “members of the poor and unreached segment of the local Sg. Pelek community were also employed as non-executive staff. This AFFORDED opportunity for evangelism”
Gosh, it doesn’t need a RM10 Million beautifully built Complex to do this! Who are PG& PG2 & BOD & Mission Director kidding? But sadly, people like
‘Discernment’ get fooled—worst still, though well meaning, praising their efforts when it fact they failed miserably because they never did genuinely have their heart in it. ( as it has been alleged, but certainly highly probable, it was for the objective of getting Datukship).
Please consider the FACTs:
- It was completed in 2001, yet it was only open
for ‘operations’ in 2006.
( a good five years in between—what took place?)
- The accounts showed 07 &08 incurred approx.
RM610 in expenditure, notably RM124,776 on
Salaries & Rm53,281 on Security ’08 (exclude
depreciation) How can any one justify this
sought of monies on this sort of ‘harvest’?
- As with all other Extended Ministries,
Calvaryland has Lofty Missions Statement,
Grand Purpose & Ample Activities.
(Look great on paper and for raising funds.)
It’s a lot words, and a lot of talk BUT where is
the Action Plan with specific Resources
identified and timeline set, for each of purpose
—and its goals met accordingly?
- Apparently, in the last 2years PG2, who had
claimed ownership for mooting this project, had
visited it no more than 4 times.
PG, PG2, BOD & Missions Director & Assoc Pas certainly have created CC’s definition of “Evangelism” to meet the needs of the poor & disadvantaged etc-- They think of ‘Quality life’ not ‘Spirit life’ in what they do, hence all the wrong priority & emphasis on External factors: Nice Facilities, feel good elements, and the mega Buck$ waste.
Please, in the name of God, discern carefully & use Jesus’ ways as the bench mark to stay on the course.
Dear Calvary Today,
Thank you for your further thoughts on CalvaryLand. I would like to add the following:
I have no doubt that CalvaryLand is God's vision and heartbeat. Whether SP and the church leadership were faithful or has abandon this calling or not, I am not the final judge although I did mention that there has been a lack of focus and support by the church/church leadership towards it. However even if the church leadership has "moved on to other things", this does not invalidate God's vision and desire. And by the way, I am sure you would agree that God can give more than one vision (project) at any given time. And by the way, the church still supports CalvaryLand financially as reported under Faith Promise.
And I don't think the money has been wasted - the buildings have been completed and work begun. Perhaps like I mentioned, the work has yet to but can become what intends it to be.
So my appeal is to look forward instead of backward and let us, individually and corporately work towards fulfilling God's vision for CalvaryLand.
Thank you and God Bless!
The day we see Petrina G fold up her sleeves and feed the elderly folks in Calvaryland, we will believe that the have fulfilled God's vision. We believe that God has given them a vision back then to start community work as part of the church ministry to reach out to the marginalized. There is no doubt about that but now we see that SP & family has used this noble high calling of God as a platform for their own selfish gain to build their own G dynasty. And because we al know the heart beat of God is people especially the poor, no one and especially to people like Discernment Needed to jump to their defence. SP has used Godly ministry to get personal gains because he knows that no one can fault God's work.
Brothers and sisters, it is what they are doing and continue to be doing with their hands literally that matters, not using our hard earned money from Missions to fund it now and claim that SP is still very much supporting Calvaryland financially. Who cannot do.
Try asking SP to get his wife who is also earning big salary to take control and personally be in charge of Calvaryland. I remember her standing at the pulpit and sharing about seeing such a project for community service and how God spoke to her to start one in Malaysia. So full of talk. What has she done personally - hands on please, not take missions and give and then consider that her service and contribution to Calvaryland now. Why should Shereen and Teck Chin be running it? Did God give them the vision? A hired hand will not carry out the vision well as compared to the receipient of that vision and here with Calvaryland is PG1 & PG2.
I would like to further clarify what I meant by "... God can give more than one vision (project) at any given time ..."
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If I have only rm2/- to give [CL = CalvaryLand | CCC = Calvary Convention Centre] ...
* Is it wrong to give rm2/- to CL and none to CCC?
* Is it wrong to give rm2/- to CCC and none to CL?
* Is it wrong to give rm1/- to CL and rm1/- to CCC?
In my perspective and conviction, the answer to all the above 3 questions is ... obviously it is definitely NOT wrong if we do it in obedience and to please God.
I sincerely hope that the church leadership do not frown upon someone who may choose to give all to CL and none to CCC. If the church leadership feels this way, then it simply evidence that they do not think that CL is God's vision and work - otherwise why should anyone discourage someone from givng and supporting the work of God. Surely God's resources is so vast and deep that He can meet both the needs of CL and CCC!
At the same time, should anyone decides to give all to CCC as the Lord leads, why should there be any unhappiness or discouragement as well since the giving is in obdedience to God and for His work.
Once again, let's look forward instead of backward ... and for those who have always feel strongly to touch the lives of the poor, oppressed and neglect of society, people who do not have voices of their own, the hurting and down-trodden, etc... let us hear the call of our Father's heart and support the work of CalvaryLand - God's vision.
And yes, I am disappointed by the current lack of support given to CalvaryLand by the church/church leadership. But I will say it again - if the church/church leadership would give their support to it, CalvaryLand can blossom into the beautiful work that God intends it to be!
God Bless!
hey, how come extended ministries like CLM show a total salaries and related expenses of RM187k in 2008? u mean to say Pam's salary is from this CLM and not from our main church salaries? I hope there's no double counting and she ends up with 2 salaries from both extended ministries and her main salary from church!!! outrageous
Sad state of Calvary Land
Whether Calvary Land is a vision received from God – will we ever know. However it is a sad state that no efforts were made to develop Calvary Land into something of value to CC and to the community
Sunshine Home was PG2’s vision. She made it happened. When Calvary Land was started she must have a vision to cater for the community. Unfortunately it looks as if her vision stopped there.
For a vision to materialize into a bigger vision, one needs to start from small. CC had not even attempted to rent a house and start an orphanage. If this had been done, and when Calvary Land was ready for occupancy we would now have an orphanage moving in.
Another problem with CC – the “management” wants to save money – instead of paying qualified people to start Calvary Land, they would rather have one willing to work with very little pay, if possible “living sacrifice” status. Also you must get people with a passion for that type of work.
Earlier the people running the street ministry really had a hard time – they had to raise money themselves to buy food to feed the people that came into the centre. Hopefully things have changed now. I always could not understand why CC could not allocate sufficient funds for those people instead of making them work and yet have to raise the money. All are volunteers.
So whether it is a vision from God or not, if you have started something – make it happen
Dear SM
You said, "You have said so many harsh insulting words (You're probably not a Christian but we forgive you for your crude words)"
I am saying, didn't you read properly what I wrote?? I use words like "evangelizing to the construction workers". Duhhh!! And plus, I didn't ask for your forgiveness. But anyway, it's alright. I forgive you too.
You said, "but you did not confirm that you actually saw the workers working on the project."
I am now saying, and hear me well, YES I SAW with my OWN EYES, wearing specs, or contact lenses or with my own naked eyes, or perhaps with a shade that cost about RM500, I SAW construction workers working at the site! They climbed the planks, the concrete slabs and worked under the hot blazing sun! Happy?? Duhhh!!
You said, "Whether you drive by 4 times a month or 4 times a day is irrelevant."
I am saying, irrelevant your HEAD! Someone who claimed to drove past the site 4 times in a month for that few split seconds vs me who drove past that site for more than 4 times in a day, of course I get a better picture!! Duhhh!!! Another non-thinker here... its ok, I still forgive you for not using your brain before you reply me.
You said, "I'm also very puzzled why you are so free to hang around there to watch out for "CCC Progress"."
I am now saying, I am watchful of those who spread false news. Especially in the light of the what is happening now. People can't wait for something bad to happen. Juicy news draw crowds! If he is a liar, I am going to watch him and make it my personal goal to correct his statements. What the church needs is healing. We do not need anyone to pass anymore passing statements that continue to hurt and divide the church further. Do you agree??? Oh please don't reply me. You're going to reply with your own pea-brain understanding and I have no tolerance for that! No apologies for that!
You said, "I think many members will drive by to check out, so if you see them, please be kind to them and give them a tour of the site."
I am saying, sure, I will get them to go down on their knees to pray!!! And that includes YOU!!
My next reply is only for CCC Progress after he has visited the site. I wanna extend a fast apology to him. To SM who is probably boiling with low grade anger towards me now, please don't bother. I tolerate your pea-sized brain not.
Adios!
CCC Progress is a Liar sounds like a childish, disrespectful, proud young person who obviously has anger issues and inner angst..gosh, the way he or she wrote a reply to SM was really the kind of things that would warrant a statement in chinese we call 'Mou Kar kao' (or parents didn't teach her/him properly). so does it make you feel better to call other ppl 'pea sized brain'? Coz if it does, I am so so sorry for you.
Dear All
Please do not argue about the progress of CCC. Just go ask the project manager. I am sure he will be able to tell you the progress. Or I have a better idea, go ask Brother Han Joke Kwang. He is the deacon in charge of CCC.
Hey you who call another liar.
Why so angry? You got share in CCC? You are willing to trade your manners to prove others wrong.
We would have believed you and even maybe agreed with you if you just state your stand. A gentle correction like this, "Bro/Sis you did not see the real thing. Work is in progress and I can verify it becoz I live there......" or something like that.
By saying others have no brain cells and calling another pea brain only shows that there is a great possibility that work has stopped. Personally, I have heard many members saying that work seems to have stopped at CCC site although I have not been there at all. So what CCC Progress is not something new that we have heard.
If construction work has not stopped then it is certainly moving at snail pace - very slowly. This is a fact confirmed by very insider source. Don't forget many of us are in the construction industry and we have friends in the market place. So don't come and scold people and think that by being harsh, you can push your point across.
How can we believe someone who can't even tell what is on his/her own face, "YES I SAW with my OWN EYES, wearing specs, or contact lenses or with my own naked eyes, or perhaps with a shade that cost about RM500".
when I passed the site today...didn't seem to see any workers there either. maybe all of them went for calvary service since it is a sunday?
Hi All
I remember very clearly in an AGM, where brother Han told everybody that CC got a 35 million loan from Alliance Bank. He also said we got the loan on a clean basis.
Now I have discovered that Brother Han was lying to us. The Alliance Bank 35 million loan was not on a clean basis.
Why would Brother Han lie to us about the loan? I have never seen any bank give a 35 million loan to any company or any person on a clean basis. Have any of you heard of that before??????
Dear All,
PG is very sly and cunning. He must have planned all this from the very start.
If you look through the accounts of the Extended Ministries, plse pay special attention to Calvary Communications Ministry. The Communications Ministry is headed by Jim Guneratnam. Calvary Communications has Fixed Deposit totalling 800K. Calvary Communications is still receiving missions support from Faith Promise every month. Why ????
The other ministry is Calvary Life Ministries. Calvary Life Ministries is headed by Pam Guneratnam. Fixed Deposits totalling 500K is in Calvary Life Ministries Accounts. Why????
Why are there such huge amounts of money in Fixed Deposits??????
Why are these ministries still supported by Faith Promise when they have huge amounts of money in Fixed Deposits????
Why????
I do not see any other extended ministry having so much money in Fixed Deposits.
Is it because they are headed by the Guneratnam Family???
good point on the FDs in CLM and communication ministry. if there's so much money in FD, just use those la..why must Missions keep giving them money. and also, notice the salaries given out in these 2 ministries. this guneratnam family is really so sly and cunning.they've been planning this for years.
yeah, not sure why this 'CCC progress is a liar' person is soooooo angry and defensive. if he saw whatever he saw, then so be it lor..no need to start belittling ppl and using those kinda harsh words. even if what u r saying is the 'truth', we are very turned off by your kinda bad and childish attitude..if u're an adult, the more turn off it is. at least if u're a young person, we can still give excuse for u and say u r having teenage problems.so whatever u say or try to say,all ppl can read is your degrading remarks on otheer church members and think to ourselves 'tsk tsk..this is a christian talking ar??'
Dear "see with my own eyes too, not wearing shades", I forgive you for not recognizing the construction workers needed an off day.
Dear Joy, whether or not I have teaching from my family is none of your business. You have not shown me any Christian-like behaviour yourself by saying I am "mou kah kou". Isn't that passing judgmental remark yourself? Come on Joy, where is your other cheek for me to slap?? Since it seems to me I have just slapped you on one cheek? Come on, turn your other cheek to me!
Dear QS, I must say at least your comments made more sense than the rest.
But still, I hope this short childishness from me did make 2 points clearly:-
1. People are impacted by irresponsible blogging
2. Work at the construction site has not stopped.
Anyway, I am not going to waste my time here talking about this. It's Monday morning. The AGM is this Friday. I'm going to go pray now. Same goes to all of you.
Nevertheless, because we are still in one family, may you all have a great week in Jesus.
Done commenting!
Please volunteer to serve in CalvaryLand. There are not enough volunteers.
Yen (Please don't assume this person to be Pastor Kit Yen)
When members see our church leaders especially the SP & his wife personally involved in the Calvaryland, you will have no problem with volunteers. You will also have no problems with donation in kind and finance. Most Christians are generous and compassionate. We would rally behind our church for a cause which contributes to society but the pastors must lead the way.
Sorry to sound rude, but who are you Yen that we should respond to? Why should you a lay leader I believe, shoulder this heavy responsibility? That's the problem with CC in the last few years. Individuals like you, most probably is already serving in Calvaryland faithfully, therefore you see the great need there But no help from main church, and are crying out to God to send help and now making an appeal to members for help. Yen, we all feel for you really and that is why we need to change our church leaders.
We need pastors and deacons who will truly care for people and work towards building up and supporting existing ministries. What's the point of having 20 ineffective outreaches because they are not willing to support 20 pastors to run them properly? Dare Pas SK give the church the real attendance figure of each of these 20 outreaches?
Yesterday Pas SK really “burst my balloon” in my opinion of him as a more intellectual, theological and down to earth pastor. When he took over as Missions Director, we thought we had seen the last of circus antics in FP reminders but alas, we will be continuing to see balloon acts the next few weeks. Who do the pastors see sitting in the congregation each week from up there? Children? They really think that some balloon acts will cause members to give? Are our pastors that naïve? I don’t want to say childish but seriously….????
Or is it the church system? It cannot be so coincidental that both Pas PO and Pas SK have the same mentality. Or are they governed by the same system and that’s why they cannot serve God in our church with their own self-expression, God given talents and abilities. This is indeed a very sad situation for all those working in Calvary Church today.
So Yen, we need to pray that God will bring about CHANGE IN THE SYSTEM soon and faithful workers like you will not need to say, “Please volunteer to serve in CalvaryLand. There are not enough volunteers.” Volunteers and finance will come knocking on Calvaryland’s door when the right Godly system is enforced and practiced.
Looks like all the church members including all the pastors, church workers, leaders and staff should complete a form to confirm your status: morally and financially.
Dear Calvary Today and fellow readers,
I have noticed that the resolution that Celine De Lima (my grandmother) and I submitted for the coming AGM has generated much interest. Today, I have noticed especially that the comments have begun to get personal and I would like to express that I am disappointed that fellow believers would engage in such behavior. Sadly, such comments reveal more about the character of the authors of such comments than of me personally.
I am more than willing to discuss the merits of the resolution(s) that I have sponsored for the coming AGM with anyone on this blog. Please feel free to contact me at aaron.sarma@gmail.com.
I believe all members have a right under our Church's Constitution to submit any resolution that he/she feels strong about. It is then up to the BOD to table these resolutions and its up to the members to decide whether or not they want to support it. A debate on the merits of each resolution is healthy as long as it is done with maturity and responsibility.
Aaron Sarma
2.CCC OUTCOME MAY BE DECIDED BY WHO IS THE CHAIRMAN OF THE AGM
It has been thoroughly proven that PG1 makes an absolutely atrocious chairman. But then none of the Associate Pastors will fit into the role either. They are too sold out for their senior pastor that it is impossible for them to hold a neutral position stance. Furthermore I am certain that all the APs without exception will abstain from taking that position in case it offends their boss. Then what? Back to PG1? We are running ourselves in circles here.
I am sure that someone must have considered the Superintendent of the AOG Council. If not, we ought to!
TYPICAL OF CALVARY MACHINERY
Members love Calvary that is why they are in TTG. Their disappointment is solely with regards to how the higher echelon of leadership is running the church – with much suspicion and absolute lack of trust. I am amazed by the fact that the leadership is just unable to reassure these people in TTG who make up at least 50% of the church members. I know many of them at a personal basis and I have served with them for many years in Calvary Church. I tell you, they lovely people in Christ only that they are the no nonsence type.
So there has been a suggestion that if members are not actively involved in ministry they should be delisted from the membership role? Firstly, PG1 removes these people from their positions of service and leadership and then you are trying to impose this rule. I will probably be not allowed to say this by CT but it is sheer childishness and stupidity.
In any case, as far as I am concern, the TTG people are very actively serving Calvary Church in trying to right all the wrongs that have been going on for much too long. Its just that the people in leadership are unable to understand and accept little bit opposite viewpoints. I think it has something to do with Christian maturity.
To :YEN
"Please volunteer to serve in CalvaryLand. There are not enough volunteers."
You meant well, I'm sure, but this 'call for volunteers'
would suggest as if there are lots of work going on in Calvaryland-- it can't be further from the truth, for the place is like an abandoned resort.
It's NOT a volunteer issue. Volunteer for what?-- clean the vacant rooms? look after the pond, fruti trees, cut the grass? repair the rotting pews (passed down by CC), prepare food for half a dozen of residents?
Let's see the real state of affairs for what it is:
There is NO Action plan to roll out the programmes which were so beautifully worded in the Missions Statement, Purpose & Activities!
Without an actionable plan, it is absolutely AIMLESS,
and without cause/purpose--it's merely, passing time, wasting resources and make those who brought together some volunteers feel good (typically) and then heap praises on one another!
Enough of all the "Rah-rah" & " A flash in the pan" shows.
God's ministry is HARD work with A HEART,
reaching out to 'MULTITUDES' not arm chair directives and token events good for PR pictures in Calvary news & News Release in overseas church media to impress!
I am a young person and I have not read this blog until today. I just have one thing to say. You all laugh at the pastors and deacons and the presenters who have these meetings to clarify all issues that the TTG have brought up. Personally, I have not gone to any of this meetings but I have heard some of the proof or evidence that has been presented.
If the TTG think that the evidence provided by the church is not satisfactory, why don't you hold meetings to show the evidence that you have? Show us what proof you have that SP did all those things that he has been accused of doing.
There is also one question that is still on my mind and I have not been given an answer. Dr Lum was a deacon for 11 years if I am not mistaken. If all the wrongdoings have been going on for a while, please explain to me why did he not do anything? Did he not know anybody in the TTG group then? He did. So why only take action now and not earlier?
I hope that this comment will not be deleted and that my questions will be answered.
Correction:
In the earlier comments re Calvaryland, the following paragraph should be " RM610 in expenditure, notably *RM249,432 on Salaries & *RM123,232 on Security for 07 &’08 (exclude depreciation) How can any one justify this sought of monies on this sort of ‘harvest’?
Apologies for error in the *addition.
Dear Do Tell,
The best person to give you answers to your questions is your parents. Since you have not read this blog before, there must be a good reason why your parents have not discussed church issues with you. It is not right for us here to try to feed you with info that your parents may not want you to know.
Don't ask TTG for evidence here. Go speak to them personally and they will show you and tell you what you want to know since you do not have time to read the entire blog. I heard that some authorities are investigating SP and you do not want them to have it easy with all the evidence published here do you?
As for Dr Lum's timing, go read Ecclesiastes 3 - A Time for Everything. There is a time for everything and timing is important. When you see a beautiful flower and you pluck it off the branches, you will never get to eat the fruit of that flower. Only when given time, that the flower will turn into a beautiful fruit to be eaten. Waiting and timing is an important lesson you must learn.
Dear Brothers and Sister from Calvary Church,
We have received some complaints and therefore have deleted some comments which are racist in nature. Please do not put any more comments of such nature as we will not publish them anymore from now on.
We are also saddened by some pro-SP supporters who have expressed their comments which contained four letter foul language, scolding and condemning the TTG and CT articles. We have not published these comments.
We hope that those responsible for these comments with such foul language to stop doing so. It only shows the kind of people SP's supporters are.
Onto another matter, please be reminded that tomorrow we start the 3 day Fast & Pray for the Friday night AGM. Let us draw near to God and bring in the presence of God into the sanctuary on Friday. May God's will prevail over all that man have planned and may His plans and purposes for Calvary Church be carried out through His children at the AGM.
We hope that all the church members will be there at the AGM this Friday, 19 June at 7 pm.
Our God is Good.
Dear CT,
I am glad you deleted the racist comments. I happened to read them today and was very disappointed and disturbed that they should have even appeared. Please exercise greater care in future. Whatever the language others use or behavior they display cannot be the yardstick that determines our own actions. Keep in prayer for Friday!
CT,
Thank you for deleting the comments that were racist in nature.Infact, i do think that if you know of the people behind the commments you should help tell them that it was inappropriate..
As a Christian, I was disappointed but thankfull at ur actions..
God Bless..
To the comment in Calvary Unity to discredit WHM
What a laugh! Everyone is pointing fingers at this one and that one. Now who is the real culprit who allowed all the split in the church, quarrels, etc. etc.
SP as our Shepherd - he kept on saying he is not guilty of any wrong doing. The most serious wrong doing is - he as the shepherd of CC had not stepped out, talked with the group that he thinks is causing problem, sort out things, put things right. He is answerable to God for allowing the church that God has put under his wings to go astray, quarrel and let the whole world see and he is sitting back, smiling to himself - "I have done nothing wrong - I can see you eye ball to eye ball" None is so blind as one that does not one to see.
I am sure you will not want to post this
cc to Calvary Today
Talking of PG "sitting back, smiling to himself", this is ABSOLUTELY true.
Heard that there was a brother from East Malaysia who was at CC for the 1st time - at the 5pm Service on Sun 17th Aug 08 when Ps Dag Heyward-Mills was "preaching"; more like he was cursing the concerned sheep in CC.
This brother was shocked by Ps Dag's cursing from the pulpit BUT what shocked him more was when the camera moved over to show PG smiling at Ps Dag's antics.
I was told that a letter of complaint was sent to the AG Council by that brother BUT was any action taken by the AG Council? I wonder .......
Thank you "older than do tel" for your kind clarification. Being a young person, would it be wrong for me to ask that the evidences be shown directly from the source itself? plus as for dr lum's timing, wouldn it have been better to bring out something if it was bad earlier rather than later?
My parents have discussed the church issues with me. Maybe I do not find their answers satisfactory enough. That is why I have come to this blog. Isn't it better to hear the truth from the source and not from anybody else? In that way, nobody can be accused of putting words in anybody's mouth.
I am not asking the TTG to lay out all the evidence on this blog. You rented the hall at KBU before to have a meeting. Why don't you do it again? I am sure that I am not the only one who is curious to see what evidence the TTG have.
I do agree that timing is important. All of this have been going on for more than a year and it is only now that I have come to this blog. Let me ask, if you see a person you know living a life full of sin, such as doing drugs or drinking, would you wait 11 years before you step in and do what is right? How if it was too late?
Dear Bro Hong Meng, forget about the alternate blog's nonsense. We support you in what you are doing and we know you are not the one causing disunity. It is PG and his family that are the ones causing disunity and strife in the church. Also, it is not rocket science to know who are the ones behind CU, just look at who are the ones who proposed the resolution to remove members!
On CCC progress at site, Ask Bro Han for the Master Programme for Construction Works and an Actual Progress Report/Consultant's certification of works of the site to establish CCC's current progress. I wonder whether there have granted an Extension of Time to the Contractor?
Has anybody noticed in the church accounts there is an advance of RM8,000,0000 ie 8 million given to the contractor? You know 8 million loan given in advance.
Who gave the approval for the loan to be given???
Can PG or BOD approve the loan??
Does our church constitution allow the church to give loan to any person?
How come the church members do not know anything about it??
How come BOD never ask for church members approval???
This loan has been given without the church members knowledge. How can???
If BOD can lend money to contractor, then BOD can also lend money to any other person who wants to borrow from church, right???
Despite our brave TTG members exposing, in mid 2008, that RM 1.9m was "moved" to PG's personal CIM from 2002 to 2007 (without the CC members' knowledge), our BOD has done it again - by advancing RM 4.0m to the contractor in Jul 08 (see Note 3 on Page 27 of the Annual Report) without the CC members' knowledge.
Then after the 15th Aug 08 EGM, our BOD again baltantly advanced another RM 4.0m to the contractor - RM 2.0m in Sep 08 & RM 2.0m in Oct 08.
Isn't this outrageous of them? Have they forgotten that it is us, CC members, who voted them in & that they are answerable to us & to God?
It is normal for a human being to perceive an image or a vision when he/she looks at a building or structure.
However, some times bare truth is not what we expect. Take the following examples related to Freemasonry:
1. On the reverse side of the US $1 bill, is the "Eye of Providence" or the "All-seeing Eye" on top of an uncompleted pyramid which is traced back to Egyptian mythology and the Eye of Horus. Today the Eye of Providence is usually associated with Freemasonry.
2. Visitors to New York look at the Statute of Liberty with awe. Most people or the world at large do not know that the Statute of Liberty was presented to the masons of America by the French masons. The torch on the statute is the "Torch of Enlightenment" which also can be traced back to Egyptian mythology and the Goddess of Isis.
3. The serpent is universally esteemed a legitimate symbol of freemasonry.
4. It has been documented that Washington D.C.'s layout out is based on a masonic design. In 1791, the architect Pierre Charles L'Enfante who was a freemason laid out the Governmental Center of Washinton D.C. He planned to use the layout of the Governmental Center to hide certain occultic magical symbols.
An occultic magical symbol is defined as ".... an image which hides an inner meaning" and occultists always depend upon natural human tendency to want to disbelieve unpleasant or frightening truth.
Given the stand AOG and other Christian denominations on freemasonry, one has to tread carefully as masonic symbols are very difficult and costly to rectify or almost impossible to do so.
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