This is a SPECIAL UPDATE by HM (29.09.08)
"Met an oldie from Glad Tiding PJ recently. He laughed when he heard that we are celebrating our 40th anniversary. He said GTPJ is celebrating its 45th anniversary and GTPJ was birthed from Calvary Church. How then can Calvary be celebrating only its 40th anniversary? He showed me the GTPJ constitution which was first adopted in 1963. Apparently two years after the founding of Calvary Church in 1961, the Bible Institute was started along Jalan Gasing in PJ. Rev Osgood, its principal, encouraged some members of Calvary Church to use that location to start GTPJ. My oldie friend was one of those who went over.
He was very excited and agreed to my suggestion that in 2011 GTPJ join with Calvary to celebrate our 50th anniversary together."
" The AOG 50th anniversary book given out last year, 2007, has on page 42 this quote from Dr Guynes, "When we left in 1964, Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur was developing into a strong congregation; Glad Tidings in Petaling Jaya was gaining strength..."
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I was a little puzzled when it was announced that Cavalry Church would be celebrating its 40th anniversary in October. I remembered reading from the AOG Malaysia website the following:
“January 1961 saw the birth of Calvary Church, the English language division of the Assembly of God Church in Jalan Sayor, Kuala Lumpur. Rev. D.R. Guynes was its first Pastor. Calvary Church is now the largest Assemblies of God Church in Malaysia and has mothered several assemblies in its outreached efforts under the able leadership of Rev Dr Prince Guneratnam (our former General Superintendent) who is faithfully serving as the Senior Pastor since 1972.”
That would make us more than 47 years old, not 40. Then I checked the Calvary website and discovered the following:
“Calvary Church was dedicated to the glory of God on 11th February 1968 through the efforts of dedicated missionaries. Rev. Tan Sri Prince and Puan Sri Petrina Guneratnam was the first Malaysian couple to pastor the Church. From a congregation of 120 in 1968, the church has grown, pioneered and established 27 daughter churches. Today, Calvary Church and her outreaches minister to more than 8,400 people.”
Neither statement is untrue. Just that the emphasis and the impression created in the minds of the readers would be very different. So I decided to talk to a couple of “oldies” from those years to know a little more of our history before we moved in 1968 to the present location in Damansara Heights. How did it all start?
For starters and to help me follow the story, I was given a list of the missionaries who pastored Calvary Assembly of God in the early years.
Delmer R Guynes 1956 – 1959
Cyril G Francis 1959 – 1961
David H Baker 1961 – 1963
Delmer R Guynes 1963 – 1964
James W Jones 1964 – 1968
Victor Trimmer 1968 – 1969
James W Jones 1969 – 1972
They were assisted by the following local pastors (including Singaporeans):
Allan and Rosie Leong 1963 – 1964 as assistant pastors to Ps Guynes
Anthony Chong 1965 as special assistant to Ps Jones for Light for the Lost follow up
Fred and Rita Abeysekera 1966 – 1969 as assistant pastors to Ps Jones and Ps Trimmer
Johnny Yeoh` 1969 to 1970 as youth minister under Ps Jones
The story goes like this. Ps Guynes came in 1956 as pastor for First Assembly of God, our mother church in Jalan Sayor. He noticed that the children of the Chinese speaking believers in the Church were growing up and was making up a greater and greater proportion of the congregation. There was a need for an English service to cater to the needs of the younger generation who were educated in English. Therefore in 1957 he started an English service on Sunday evenings. The Christ Ambassadors (CA) programme was started at about the same time. This went on for a few years until in 1961 it was decided that a separate English speaking church be established under the name of Calvary Assembly of God. Although the idea of an English speaking church was mooted by Ps Guynes, it was Ps Baker who had the honour of actually officiating in its establishment. In January 1961 Calvary AOG was birthed. Robert Ng remembered that day most fondly, “It was a Sunday night service, about 50 or so of us marched proudly up to the pulpit and signed on a beautiful document - The Chartered Members Roll of Calvary Church”. Sadly it is believed that the roll is now missing although Ps Jones said he had left it in good condition in the church when he left.
It had been said that it was only a youth group. Although younger, they were by no means just youth. The oldest charter member was 28 and Robert Ng was 18. Tony Lee was 22. They had a simple charter (or constitution if you like). Robert remembered that because 70% to 80% were young adults there was even a provision in the constitution that the President of the CAs would automatically be a member of the Board of Calvary AOG. He should know as he was then the president of the CAs.
Robert remembered that during the pastorate of Guynes and Jones there were three major door to door tracting campaigns. In April of 1965 in the first campaign, 25 “Invasion Teams” saturated almost all of the residential areas of Kuala Lumpur with 50,000 pieces of Light for the Lost salvation literature. In those days there were no restrictions. Tracts were given to all households regardless of race or religion. The campaigns were the result of the massive revival in both the Chinese and English speaking congregations brought about through a series of evangelistic meetings in 1963 by a famous Hong Kong actress with the stage name of Mui Yee. The harvest would soon follow; some sow, some water and some reap but all to the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
It was Ps Jones who felt the deep burden that the English speaking congregation must have its own church building. Together with the leadership in this young church they embarked on a building project. They bought 25,000 s.f. of land in Damansara Heights, then an undeveloped ex-rubber estate. The purchase price was $67,500.00 or $2,70 p.s.f. (In those days it was called the Straits dollar and not the Ringgit.) As Robert puts it, “The young congregation through God’s divine motivation and much sweat and sacrifices managed to raise sufficient funds to purchase the piece of church land in Damansara Heights.” I was privileged to sight the official receipts issued by Selangor Properties to the Church. There was one for $5,000.00 being the first payment for the purchase of the land dated 7 December 1965. The second payment of $25,000.00 was dated 4 February 1966.
The church building with a seating capacity of 300 would cost around $147,000.00. From the start the church was blessed. The Kathryn Khulman Foundation through Evangelist Rev Gene Martin pledged to match dollar for dollar of funding raised by the church members. And the members raised the money needed. Robert related a story when he went to sell bricks in the rich Lower Ampang area of KL. The man who came to the gate told him that he would buy some if Robert would wash his cars. Robert agreed not knowing that the man had six cars. Although it took him almost the whole day to wash the six cars he was hopeful that the man would buy at least a few bricks. The Lord was good. That man bought all the bricks Robert had. He reported back to Ps Jones the wonderful blessing of God. And as all good pastors would do, the next weekend Robert was given a double allocation of bricks to sell. Others volunteered to do overtime at work to earn overtime pay which could then be contributed to the building fund. That was how the money was raised to pay for the building of Calvary Church.
Ps Jones himself made personal sacrifices for the Church. He offered to contribute the housing allowance he was receiving from America to support the church. Instead he and his family would make do by staying in the small extension at the back of the Church. Finally the church building was dedicated in early 1968. In those days Damansara Heights was very inaccessible. The Church had to hire two buses to ferry worshippers from the Bangkok Bank bus-stop to the Church.
So are we 40 years old or 47? Both answers can be correct. It depends on whether you take it from the date the present church building was dedicated or the date when a group of young believers came together and committed themselves with their pastor that they would be a congregation of believers under the name of Calvary Assembly of God. It depends on what you value more, the building or the people making up the body of Christ. It depends on your understanding of what the Bible says is the “church”.
Without the sacrifices of the early missionary pastors and the dedication and commitment of the young believers we would not have the building or be able to celebrate our “40th” anniversary. Let’s not forget those who went before us.
Wong Hong Meng
5th September 2008
52 comments:
Thank you for this thorough research on the historical background of Calvary Church.
Hmmm..who are our deacons and SP trying to kid? Calvary is obviously 47 years old. No one in the right mind celebrates a building's age. Imagine if our cabinet tells us that we will celebrate the 150th anniversary of Abdul Samad building or the 10th anniversary of the KL Tower, we'd think they have gone cuckoo. Hmm...
Interesting possibility that we could be a new born babe when we move to CCC?
The sad part is that very few members of the church actually know about this issue.
It's unbelievable that even a detail like this needs to be manipulated for selfish reasons.
Very sad - isn't it. However you remembered SP said the members are not the Church. So no recognition to those who had labored before. Never mind God knows and knows very well SP's motive in everything.
As hm said "we would be l years old when we move to CCC". That is if CCC ever materialise. Remember we will still be Calvary Church worshipping in CCC!!
Lot of issues in our church will be resolved if SP is no longer around. Let's pray that he resigns soon. Jesus, our great Shepherd died for His sheep. For all the troubles SP has caused his sheep, the least he can do is resign.
agreed, i think tat if SP really loves the church and God's people, he should do the right thing by resigning and becoming a full time evangelist.Otherwise,if he stays on and keeps on fighting to maintain his position, it only shows that he is looking after his own interests and not the church's interests. Look at what is happening with our govt...so many similarities.
Yeah, couldn't agree more. Say, is it alright or a sin to pray that God will have mercy on us and take SP home?
hi RK.
thank you for your concern although you are far away . what more to those who has being in this church for many years. this is done with a heavy heart.the church has not given the members any platform to air their concerns. august EGM was a joke . The BOD decided to do what their like. they adopted resolution accepting they own finding to be correct without making any references to the voting members and ignore resolutions that was submitted to be table.. the EGM has no voting the BOD invited everyone to attend and then only certain class of people are allow to talk.and was only allow to ask 2 question.They can call for an EGM and don't follow the constitution but when question was ask the they bring the constitution out to slash at the members.
in future they could just sent a copy of what the board had done and no need to call for any AGM.why waste the voting members time. even the coporate world don't do that.
the BOD actually thought the august 15 briefing had solve the problem which is far from it. this is why this blog is created . it is because the church do not belong to SP but to us who has grown up in it.we know no other church. we don't compare with other church. we compare what used to be and now. our children grow up in this church. many of us( used to) hold significant position in the church till lately ( because they speak up)
if your are still concern why dont you call SP or write to him to convince him to save the church.
to what I know, usually those who are dictators, self-serving individuals, would re-write history. So Why should anyone be surprised by this 'celebration' of 40 th. year anniversary? ( had it it been in PRINCE Hotel, that would be too blatant, maybe that was a compromise to have the CCC fund raising dinner there instead? Maybe not, perhaps PRINCE hotel is more appropriate for "fine-dinning & world class entertainment" with CEOs of the corporate world who can afford RM in K's ( RM10K, 20K, 30K, 40K...small change.) Besides tax exempt & look really generous too. Watch-out: it will be billed the most Extravagance of Church Fund raising ever.( next target is to be conferred TUN)
Dear Hong Meng,
Thank you for sharing the history of Calvary Church. However, I believe the motivation that caused you to write this article is actually in connection with the announcement of the Thanksgiving Dinner to be held on October 2008 at the Sunway Convention Centre for the Calvary Family.
My comment is this:
I think that whether Calvary Church is 40 years or more, is not the fundamental issue that should be focused on.
In the light of the current state of affairs in the church, concentrating on this issue could be a distraction from the main issues that are still not addressed.
Besides history is always written from a person's perspective and many times, historians find out that history can be faulty in certain points due to the writer's point of view. Documentaries that we watch in ASTRO, do at times speak about how the truth of a matter is far from the history that we popularly know.
Even in the Bible, the Synoptic Gospels stands as good examples (at least that is what I think I caught from my pastors at BCM.) Each book was written to specific audience and what values that they held dear to their hearts and minds. It also took in their culture which really is not much different in how we deal with the world today.
What the apostles did was to enter the world of the audience and explain GOD's truths and principles as they would understand. Let me explain that the authors did not bend God's fundamental truths but used illustrations, object lessons and explanations that their audiences could understand.
I am sorry, Hong Meng, but I fail to grasp what point you are trying to bring across to us in detailing the history.
What I fear, glancing from the comments that have been posted in response to your article, is that people have now been left with an even poorer image of Sr Pastor. I am not supporting him but if we were to walk in another's shoes, do we want people to do this to us?
In my heart, I hope that this was never your intention and from what I know of you, I don't believe it ever was.
The real issue that I think should be questioned is this: Why is Calvary Church holding a Thanksgiving Dinner when the church has not settled many outstanding issues and conflicts that are present today.
Can anyone tell me if the steps that the BOD mentioned at the EGM are already in motion? I believe that it has been almost what a month or so since the EGM?
Yes, we are to constantly give thanksgiving to God - because thanksgiving is a form of worship. But then, is the Church forgetting the attitude and spiritual criterias that comes with corporate worship?
When we give thanks personally, we come before God and acknowledge that all things have come from Him, that He is working all things in our lives. Generally, but not a must, a visible and acceptable expression that follows from a heart that gives thanks - is to lift our hands, sing our songs of praise and worship and also to give of our belongings. I believe that many will agree that these elements are present in both personal and Corporate Worship.
Yet,are we forgetting something else? That love for our brother and making peace is a very important part of the Corporate Worship of which Thanksgiving to God is part and parcel of. Do read the articles from bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PERSONAL/k/803/Offerings-of-Leviticus-Meal-Offering.htm
and cgg.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Library.sr/CT/PERSONAL/k/809/The-Offerings-of-Leviticus-Part-Four-Peace-Offering.h...
So, right now, my question is this: Why are we having a Thanksgiving Dinner when there are so many issues outstanding at the moment? Does one throw a party if there exist conflict in that house?
Sure, there will those who say don't look to the circumstances but look to God. Yeah, but are being overly theological (and perhaps overly spiritual?) in saying this.
Theology is given to us so that we may internalize the truths of God and put into practice in our daily lives?
So, with questions unanswered and parties not yet answering them satisfactorily; when there are shadows of doubts lurking in the corridors of Calvary Church and in the hearts and minds of the people - will someone please explain why we are having this Thanksgiving Dinner?
To be frank, the issue at hand is about the proper handling of money - in terms of accountability, transparency and integrity. And "giving to God" is one of the outward expressions of worship to God in thanksgiving - how can the members be expected to reconcile this? Someone please help me understand this?
Next, when there is such a crisis in church, shouldn't we be putting on our "spirit of mourning" and appealing to God to intervene and end the crisis? When Israel went through "civil war" after Solomon's death - was there a celebration party of thanksgiving?
I know that some people will talk about Jericho and so - hey, but I have also been taught by my pastors, that singular events cannot be considered "normative" events.
Again, this is my 2sens worth - I apologise again if I have sounded harsh and this writing offends anyone. I do not write to spite but to ask questions that float in my mind - than let them fester in my heart and to gossip with others.
God bless everyone!
Diana
Diana, I think that's a fair opinion. I also wonder why is it that the church is having not just one, but 2 big celebrations as if all is well and nothing is wrong when in reality, so many issues have not been solved yet...it looks to me like denial and a 'ignorance is bliss' mentality.
they just in hurry to raise fund.last canival they raise 700 k after expenses. now they raise 450 k gross before expenses.they dont see what damage is being done thus far. lets watch the dinner now. it is indication of disatify members and their protest in silent. i say this not to spite but to let all know results indicate the level of trust in the BOD n the pastor of the church.
Diana's questions make alot of sense, and the best people to answer would be the CEO & the BOD.
Let's hope they will learn to answer questions, for once, directly to the questions posed and not ignore totally or equally worse beat around the bush.
Until then, my guess is they have become PR experts, good spin -- painting a rosy picture to all, and let those who attend 'feel' good at and think all is well. ( when in fact it is sweeping things under the carpet--it's all very sad)
it could be just because they want to "enlighten" the tension among church members by creating "fun activities".
or
they don't want members that are "not involved" to feel "left out", resulting in zero church growth just because the tension is still on.
or
they want to show other churches that CC still stands strong as a family even during an ordeal.
Diana's comment has been copied and published onto the main post, titled, QUESTIONS FROM A MATURED HEART.
Pls go there to leave your comment concerning what she has written.
Pls continue to post your comment here on Hong Meng's Article.
Thanks.
Yes I do think it is wrong for us to pray for the demise of anyone!! If you people can actually pray this about ANYBODY regardless of whether you like the person or not, how would you like it if someone was praying for YOUR demise? This is what I think the bible calls "persecution".
In all that you choose to do be VERY CAREFUL because it is God's place to judge, not ours. There are many things we may feel we know or we may think we are right, but there are also so many things we don't know, but God knows. So we should leave these things to God and not to create havoc and upheavel in your so-called beloved church. If you really have faith in God who can do all things, why do you choose to take matters into your own hands and persecute an individual? ANY Individual for that matter.
Do not aliken church or spiritual affairs with what goes on in politics. There should be no comparison, for the things of this world is seperate from the spiritual work that God is trying to accomplish.
I beseek anyone who reads this, whether you are a neutral party like me, or on either side, to just submit these issues to God. Those who take things into their own hands by choosing to defame a person's reputation, create so-called "awareness" which is actually just creating havoc, signing petitions, writing in blogs, indirectly or directly insinuating that the church belongs to us and not to one person etc etc...to me all this "talk" is very very unnecessary.
A neutral person reading all this feels that the emotions behind all this is NOT Love for your church, instead it is your HATE for one man, and this feeling has caused you to lose sight of GOD. Do you really think God is not in control in this situation? Do you really think if any individual person was misusing or abusing resources for personal gain, that God will not deal with this person in His own time and in His own way? Are we to assume Godly positions and try to take another human being down because of what we think we know? Is this what God would want us to do? Then we are no better than the people who wanted to stone the Mary Magdelane.
We are called to have faith and to pray. So many things happen around us which we don't understand, we need to prayer and just leave it to God to deal with the situation.
I really feel that you need to ask yourselves that all you are doing to attack one person, to "get rid" of him, to "expose" him and what not, is this real Christian testimony? When another church or individual looks at you, would they see the love of Christ in you? Or would they see something else? You hope that you will invoke thought so enough people will be on your side, or to see what you see, but neutral parties who look at you and how you behaved during EGM, the hostility, the aggressive attitudes displayed, even if you had valid points, they were invalidated by the very wrong attitudes shown by your representatives. It is a shame to see Christians behave in such a hateful manner with a vandetta to get rid of one person. It seems obvious you are using whatever you can to bring this one person down, and frankly speaking it scares others to death and instead of buying in to what you are saying, the conclusion is that we do not want to be part of your 'plan'. We do not feel coming against a single individual is going to resolve issues. We do not think that good Christian attitudes and behaviours are being displayed here. Just read some of the things you have written..to the extent of wishing someone dead or remove him from office in order to accomplish your task.
May God have mercy on you.
Dear neutral. I think you are getting presumptous. Where in the blog has anyone wished anyone dead? Someone asks a question if it is a sin to pray that God will show mercy and take SP home and you jump to conclusion that the people want SP dead. You may think this is terrible but actually, in the Bible,there are many verses where Job, David etc openly ask God to destroy the wicked and destroy their enemies. Did they sin or were they judgmental? Up to you to form your own conclusions.
You must learn to distinguish between hating the sins and the sinner. I believe no-one hates SP but rather they hate the wrongs he has done. When he transfers funds from Missions to his personal ministry, that is morally wrong even if the deacons say it is legal to do so without members' approval. When he take the funds and fly business class for conferences when the funds are meant for missions work, it is morally wrong. When he keeps the money collected from members for Indonesian earthquake victims instead of giving it to them, it is morally wrong. Are we being judgmental? No, black is black, white is white and God has given us wisdom and discernment to know the difference between right and wrong. This is not being judgmental. In fact, the Bible teaches us to confront our fellow brother when he sins. I believe the TT team has done this many times with SP and the deacons without success.
Throughout history, God has used men and women to carry out His purposes. We cannot just pray and do nothing. We must be willing to let Him use our hands and feet and be His mouth-piece. When you say, we should have faith that God will deal with the situation, are you expecting God to appear in physical form in Calvary Church to clean up our church? He has and will continue to use people to do His tasks, that's how God works.
Of course, in all debates, emotions do sometimes take over and our words can be harsh. You cannot blame the members for this outburst. The members can only speak in frustration, they cannot change things. Only SP and the deacons can put things right, only they can put a stop to all this blogs and public debates and comments.
You asked if we are a real Christian testimony. This question should be directed at SP and the deacons, not us. We are but a product of SP who is our earthly shepherd. As our shepherd and the church CEO (yes, he calls himself this although like you say, we shouldn't be like the world) he must take full responsibility for the mess we are in and for what we have become.
Your last sentence "May God have mercy on you" just shows how judgmental you are and you dare call us judgmental.
You said, "When he transfers funds from Missions to his personal ministry, that is morally wrong even if the deacons say it is legal to do so without members' approval. When he take the funds and fly business class for conferences when the funds are meant for missions work, it is morally wrong. When he keeps the money collected from members for Indonesian earthquake victims instead of giving it to them, it is morally wrong."
Wasn't this the BOD or the MIssions Department's decision and not SP? He does not sit on the Misions Committee nor does he sit on the BOD. Why are you saying that 'he' is the one?
I don't know but all this just appears like there are people who don't like him and are trying to find any means and ways possible to find fault. White and white and black is black as you say, but then why are decisions made by the BOD or the Missions Department being said as actions taken by SP himself? Do we have proof thatb it is he and he alone who did these things without consulting anybody and anyone who sits on the proper committee and board?
There are so many assigned to have the church run, do you mean to say that only ONE man is responsible for all these things? I highly doubt that, hence I view all this as a personal attack on one person solely bcos a group of people do not like him for whatever reason.
Yes I said may God have Mercy because the bible clearly states that we should not touch God's annointed ones. I am personally extremely afraid of God's wrath should I or anyone else makes a mistake and falsely accused someone without having ALL the facts. Suspicion is not fact. Things may seem one way and be another. Many things may look as though they lead up to one conclusion, but unless they are irrefutable, we should not take it upon ourselves and draw conclusions of our own.
Had a look at the foundation stone.
Calvary church
foundation stone laid by james jones on 11 feb 1968.
to god be the glory
"christ is the answer"
I also listened to Pastor David's announcement in church on Sunday & I quote,"... as we celebrate 40 years in damansara heights..." So where's the beef?
We are celebrating 40 years in DH. Raining on the party helps no one.
The problem with witch hunts is you will find evil when you want to see it.
On top of that, I don't think this is a tit for tat situation. If you feel the BOD, SP and other leaders should be asked whether they are a good Christian testimony, how about what some of the people here are saying and how they behave themselves. Look at Jesus. Is anyone here really behaving like Him? During the EGM, only the opposition displayed attitudes unChristian like, hence I asked this question.
To neutral,
Your are indeed the very neutral one here & you indeed side no one here to speak your mind. I admire & agree with you.
But, get ready to be bashed by TT supportors for your comments. They will tell you that your comments should be directed to SP. TT members are just truthful people who want to expose lies & to be good steward. Nevermind if people find them bias & ungracious. They will justify their way around. They will tell you that they are not getting personal with SP, they don't hate him persnally but hate "what he has done". Nevermind if their deeds is obviously unloving towards a single individual. Nevermind the Bible taught us to love our enemies. Nevermind the Bible taught us to find 2 or 3 persons to correct a brother in Christ who sins with love & if the person refuse to repent, leave him to God to dicipline. Forget about all these, they just want to make it public to expose a single person accordings to their evidents & emotions.
To: weng
would you please go tell your non-christian friend, your SP had a personal ministry, a separate entity (according to kk wong),no one had any right to check the account but he can go to the BOD, and he can preached at the service to ask worshipper to pledge for faith promise( am sure faith promise is itself a designated fund), then from faith promise, RM200k go to his personal entity, dun need to pay income tax, dun need to answer to anyone.. is this appropriate? is this corporate governance?dun blamed the BOD, our BOD very weak, all seemed to be under the powerful control of our SP.. he is truly powerful, i saw the way he conduct the meeting during AGM and also during many events and also the way he preached, scolding people ...
To : anonymous
Hello, talking about the foundation stone in the church, i am now being reminded that there was something "half true" again, there was a plaque at the entrance of Calvary Land --CalvaryLand founded by Tan Sri Prince Guneratnam. Anyone interested to quickly go drive yourself to Sepang and check it out ? otherwise years down the road, history would have to rewrite lor.......Is CalvaryLand founded by SP or who?
I'm sorry, your statement does not negate what is written above. it is typical for deceived people to avoid the truth when it does not suit them. It is a coping mechanism. Please note I am not getting down on you personally. it is a matter of fact that we are sinners and are easily deceived creatures. MANY cults worship and read scripture too. Yet we would agree they are in error. Without humility we can all end up deceived.
That said, Pre 68 we were Calvary Assembly. We moved into DH, the foundation stone put down and the name changed to Calvary Church. But what's in a name.
My family is currently reaching out to three families that are desperately lost. Their situations would make you weep if you were more in tune with Gods heart. I feel more and more compelled to never bring them into First Assembly/Calvary Assembly/Church founded when "who-cares-when" as they are going to be polluted by immature bitter Christians more concerned at whipping each other into submission than growing in maturity.
Jesus left us with a great commission. He also said they will know us by our love for one another.
The question is...where is the love?
Meditate on this: Love covers a multitude of sins. IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, then your motives should be the RESTORATION OF YOUR PASTOR NOT HIS REMOVAL. This is a clear sign that the TTs are moving in the flesh and under the control of a spirit not from God.
It does not matter how much you worship or pray, if the fruit of your pursuit is counter the Bible you need to stop and rethink.
Dear Weng and Neutral. The church constitution states that SP is the Chief Executive and head of all ministries. The Missions manual reaffirms that SP is the Head of Missions. He is also the chairman of the board of deacons. SP is also the owner, founder and permanent President of CIM. When funds are transferred from Missions to CIM, it is obviously a conflict of interest. If SP retires today, all the money in CIM is his to spend as he likes. And you guys say it is ok?
If I transfer my employer's money into my personal account, I will get thrown in jail. I will be charged with theft or CBT. What is the difference between the 2 scenarios? There is no difference.
Even the uneducated kacang puteh man will tell you it is wrong. And you are all supposed to be spirit filled, discerning, educated people of the wisest God!
To SM,
I calm myself down to make this reply to you. Honestly, I respected you that you took the time to reply me & explained to me on the complicated CC account. In fact, I find you make the complicated CC account matters so easy to understand for me.
To assure you that I understand your view. I'll re-paraphrase you view. You are saying that CC constitution back SP up & granted him absolute power to control in legal terms. And the Mission manual also re-affirm his power to be the Head of Mission to control the mission fund. Since he is also the chairman of BOD so he can propose/suggest BOD to take some money out from mission fund & transfer to his personal CIM ministry. Therefore fund in CIM is absolutely his and the CC members has no right on how his is going to spend the fund on himself(TT members said he has already done that; or in future, SP can actually use the money for himself). I'm not confidence to say I reparaphrasing 100% accurate, but I believe almost 70% is similar to your view.
I believe you tell me all these details so that, first, I'm aware of this small hole that allow sin to creep into church. Second, What I'm going to respond to this. Third, what am I going t act upon this. I'll answer you 1 by 1.
Yes, I give my tithes 10% to church, because tithes is absolutely belong to God. If I really find that I prone to doubt SP character. I would opted not to offer Faith Promise or any Mission Love Gives to CC. I'll give these 2funds directly to peoples who needs it or to those you trust would spent it according to God will. But the same question that still remain is this, if I doubt whether my offering given to CC would be channelled to the right destination, how would I know if my offering given to the outside party would be properly distributed to it's rightful destination? Then I'll use the same energy to check & demand absolute proof just like TT members spent, to check with the outside party where my money goes to. Is that a cheerful giver? Is that a confident giver that trust God would distribute resources abundantly like the 5 loaves & 2 fishes. Just an example, even if SP is really capable of taking the money for himself, isn't our God is the Ultimate Provider that He still can multiply the fund that has been steal from or wrongfully used? In the Bible, when Judas(as the treasurer among Jesus diciples) steals from the fund the diciples entrusted him, did Jesus publicly rebuke Judas & say the name the person who is going to betray him for 30 pieces of silver infront of the diciples? No, Jesus did the best He could to help & save Judas by whispering in Judas ear, saying, "I know what you are going to do, go do it". What Jesus say to Judas really touch my heart. I translated it this way. Jesus was saying to Judas, "I know all this while you has been steal the fund, I know you are going to betray me for 30 pieces of silver. If you really find 30 pieces of silver is worth betraying Me, go do it, I won't stop you by tell the rest of the other disciples. And we all know the ending. Judas betrayed Jesus & hang himself up by the guilt he bore. Judas will face judgement before God. And God would reminded Judas that His act of whispering to his ear & heart is the best loving act Jesus could show to Judas. No public rebuking & correcting would be the better solution to save Judas. How this relate to CC, mission fund, CIM & SP? If SP has done it(TT suppoters claim), or going to steal the fund in future(TT members claim that is what they trying to prevent). My opinion, I leave it to God. I continue to give the best I could, and I leave it to God. If anyone steal from offering or money belongs to God, I leave it to God. Because I know God would continue to speak to the person who steal from Him to repent. If the person refuse to repent, it s really up to GOD to judge. I won't be surprised many readers who read my view would call me a coward or blind loyal to SP. I'm not. I can change church anytime if I want to. But it is my conviction to leave it to God & trusting He is in control.
Now, I settled assuring you that I understand & appreciate your view. I also explained my conviction & action in this matters. I'm going to write my view that I disagree TT leaders & members actions.
I don't want to accusation to share my view. I'll use different approach.
I believe TT members has the burden to see the fund is properly managed & strife to prevent misuse of authority & fund. In fact, TT members gain alot of support in the beginning from the CC members to get them to sign petition to demand explaination on CC & extended minisrty account. When the TT members were silently working hard without being elaborate, actually it gain more peoples supports knowing there is a group of people call TT are bold enough to question CC acount in details. That's wonderful. Honestly, that was how I felt about the TT members.
Later, when I found out this blog & its articles & what is worst is the readers comments, I could not belive my eyes on the feedback I read here. To my horror, I could not believe this is the TT group I supported & the un-Christlike this blog brings. Let me repeat myself to be clear, I don't against what TT members are trying to prevent the misused of fund, but the attitute that show unloving act towards a single person is against my faith. I'm tempted to say I that I find TT to the extend of hating SP, but many justification claim that the TT do not hate SP but they are just seeking the truth. The Bible say we ought to love one & another & even our enemies but what I see the action of the TT is that they see SP is beyond the enemies. I believe TT member can tune down & control what they want to write & publish in this blog, but I find the readers malicious feedback & comments has went over broad & it's beyond control. The creator of this blog, I believe it is obvious that some(may not all) comments is indeed mallicious & I believe is not glorifying to God. I'm not trying to be prejudice to TT. What I see is if this slandering continues, TT members will lose it's supports cause neutral peoples also can see there is something wrong here. If TT members lay low to pray or work hard behind the scene, I would actually still respect & support whenever nessacery. I'm not judging the TT members, I'm just sharing my view on the Pros & Cons of being too vocal in this blog.
Lastly, my view towards SP remain unchanged. I'm just following what the Bible taught me. That is, we shall not touch on God's annointed. TT member may have different view on this topic. Let me remind evryone on the story of Saul & King David. When King David has a chances to kill Saul, David knows that it was not God's will for him to do so. Even the Spirit & the favor of God has already left Saul, David understood that God would not be please if he do God a favor by sending Saul home(Heaven). David know God desires & God was please with David. Until today, this passage of scripture still being preached & teached among congregations. Even the TT hinted vastly that our SP is the "anointed priest who sin", we still have no right to publicly pronouncing his suspicious sinful living or killing his reputation even though TT member claim they have the proofs & evidence.
I wonder TT members & supporters are able to accept my view using Saul & David in our church scenario, but atleast do not expect me or persuade others to abandont their convictions on the passage of scripture. Unless, you come & tell me that this passage of scripture has no direct indications to our situation, and there is other message in the Bible to overite what I've just shared. I'm happy to shut up & listen. If not, I beg everyone to be attentive to God's teaching.
Weng,
I think you're missing the POINT. Concerned CC members do NOT hate SP, we hate the THINGS HE HAS DONE AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO IF WE FAIL TO TELL HIM SO. SP may think he does no wrong, and, if we say we love him, we are COMPELLED BY LOVE to point out to him that he's wrong. By so doing, it DOES NOT MEAN WE LOVE HIM LESS. Please do not misunderstand the intentions of concerned Calvarites
Similarly, we still love you Weng, although we may have differing views. And there's the beauty of God's love in us. Let our Almighty God work IN and THROUGH us, His vessels to bless others.
Good thinking, Thinking Calvarite!
The TT crew has been raised up by God to expose the lies of S.P. & the BOD...someone has to do the dirty work!I see the TT crew as our heroes! Truth, man!
God is certainly not pleased that His money has been misused & abused by His leaders...so who is gonna speak up, man?
Those who dare to speak up come 'under fire,' are persecuted, & cut-off by the establishment.
FIRST THEY CAME
First they came for the socialists,
and I did not speak out
because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me,
and there was no one left
to speak for me.
- Pastor Martin Niemöller
(victim of the Nazis)
i do not doubt that no one man is perfect. and i encourage you all to keep our pastor in prayer. THere is only so much that we can do or say. but if there really is something wrong in his heart that has to be addressed. it is ONLY the Spirit of God Himself that can bring about conviction. Humanly it is not possible. Only Jesus can touch Sp's heart and make him what He wants him to be.
My opinion is that it's not right to try and convince other people about his weaknesses because that's not going to change him. In fact the Bible says that we have to be very careful not to allow talk that does not edify proceed from ourselves.
And when we have done everything that is humanly possible, it does not justify talking like this about Him. I myself notice many weaknesses in the leader's above me but it is never in my position to talk about it to other people. It would cause a loss of respect. Who are we to decide whether or not He should resign...
but i think it's fully in our power to decide to pray PERSISTENTLY that God would do the work that ONLY HE CAN ACCOMPLISH IN OUR PASTOR'S LIFE...
when it seems like doing everything right isn't working.. let's not resort to the wrong.
blessings and love,
karl
Hi Karl, thanks for yr comments. Just to let u know that we ARE praying, and praying hard we are. But who's to say whether what is being done by the TT Group is right or wrong? Supporters of SP will of course say it's wrong but non supporters will say it is the right thing for the TT Group to hv done what they did. Both sides can throw scriptures from the bible at each other too for that matter, so who is right and who is wrong? Let's pray abt it.
i totally agree
but no... i'm not a "supporter".. of anything..
Karl,
You should have a stand, otherwise you are like the grass in the field, swaying wherever the wind blows. I stand for the truth, and I'm not ashamed of it. I want the truth to prevail, not that I have anything against SP or BOD. Sweeping issues under the carpet will NOT solve matters. Face them squarely.
A friendly reminder to all who wish to participate in this blog. If you have any tendency to get carried away by your emotions and start throwing Scripture at others, sometimes out of context, please spend more time in prayer... at least, it soothes your soul.
This blog is for matured believers to share their opinions for the betterment of our beloved Church.
In Christ alone, truth will always prevail.
Dear Calvarites,
Having been away from the church a number of years I feel saddened by the present situation. I do share the view that it is a great need for the SP to be transparent and opened with everything. If nothing else, that will be a protection for him as we all are in a spiritual battle. It is no secret that leaders are the prime target of our spiritual enemy and we therefore need to surround and support them in every possible way. This also requires the SP to be humble and to express his need from others than just the BOD. Leadership can never distance itself from the ordinary members.
However, as this situation is a part of a battle that could cause great damage to the People of God, I do not find this blog beneficial. I am afraid that this will bring more destruction than it actually builds up. I therefore propose that this blog would be either limited or closed down.
It is just so many various opinions that are not screened or filtered in a proper way.
Hi Cindy Ling
Any true christian churches and any true christian leaders and any true christians must and should be able to stand public scrutiny--emphasis again-- public scrutiny. Our lives,words,actions is our living testimonies, no one can dispute that..if any one were to said: oh, i done something wrong and sincerely repent, that is fine, but anyone deliberately do that even after knowing and still no repentance.. what do you think?
Hence, just to let you know, there were hundreds of blogs, facebooks and etc in the cyber arena by many differenct christians, some from our church ,some elsewhere, i knew of many pastors who had their own blogs too; i too knew of a "sex worker" who blog as a christian too..and mind you, she was the "Top blogger Award Winner" because her blog most read according to survey..the calvarytoday is a good blog,i support its existence..anyone agree?Thankyou for this blog..i love it.
Hi Cindy
This blog did not come overnight.
This came about because the TT Group had made several attempts with BOD regarding the Millions Ringgit that had been transfered to SP personal account.And sad to say that BOD did not give the TT group a proper answer or rather SP still did not return the money.
Not a word of apology or repenting spirit, instead using the pulpit to hit at TT group. He told his sheep to:
1. Jump into the lake
2. Go to another church
This blog is set up for calvarites to air their views and fustration.
ALL of us are being betrayed by our shepherd and the youth are very hurt inside. A father told me last Sunday that his 2 daughters not going for youth services. Many are disillusioned
Cindy,
If you think this blog exposes too much of the weaknesses of S.P. & BOD, can you imagine what will happen on Judgment Day? "For there is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed," we are told.
So it's better to try to get it solved now before THAT Day!
And God appointed you to judge a man with a life long history of preaching the gospel and being used to bring many into the kingdom?
Some things do not add up here. I do know that the TT people have already prejudged and condemned a man known world wide for a powerful and effective ministry, even though independent inquiry showed he has broken no laws.
I know many of you, and I know some of your own sins. Be careful as there are logs poking out of some of the eyes here. And they have made you blind. I was told sinful speculation by one of the TT leaders to cast doubt on Sister petrina's character. That is shameful.
What I am saying is, be careful if you decide to set yourself up as a judge. You are a sinner too remember?
hello anonymous
The EGM was itself a good judge by itself.. our SP already answered for himself what he had done, dont need anyone to judge him, his answer for money from WAGRA, money to still remain in CIM.. can you judge for yourself?
To Anonymous, I hope you're not trying to threaten the TT Group..or are you? True enough, no one is perfect and everyone is a sinner saved by grace, but does that mean that hypothetically, if I see someone commiting a murder, I am not allowed to report that person because I myself am a sinner too?
SP is known famously in the US because he has chosen to distribute a big portion of CC's missions offerings to churches across US, instead of to the needier and poorer countries across Asia and Africa and even to our local churches in Malaysia itself. I hv heard that some local small churches have tried approaching CC for monetary help but was turned down. The monetary help requested by these small churches are small and insignificant to CC as compared to the huge USD monetary help we avail to the US churches on a regular basis. Why? Is it because the churches in US need the money so much more desperately than 3rd world countries’ churches? Or is it because he wants to bring up his good name amongst the US churches? You tell me.
And are you saying that the church funds being transferred to a personal ministry as well as the movement of CARED into CIM is all justifiable? Is it wrong to say that this is a breach of trust on the part of the church leadership?
Dear Anonymous,
Contrary to your self-righteous accusation, we are NOT prejudging da man! His own works have exposed him to be what he really is! All that lying behind the pulpit, that "sacred desk"!
"By their fruits you shall know them," our Lord says.
Sis. Petrina is also NOT that innocent. Are you telling me that she didn't know about the misappropiation of funds? She, too, is a Director of CIM & CARED!
It's their works of unrighteousness that shall judge them.
I'm totally agree with you. Who say God's anointed can't be touched. Especially those who disobey God. Those who say that are really old fashion/thinking Christian. Let us act on God's behalf. Let's bring out more juicy story of the bad deeds of SP & deacons. The more bad things I hear what they have done wrongly. The more I feel the urge to expose them under the sun.
I support the TT member's view to find out the truth. Lets make some noises that scares SP & deacons of our existence. We uphold the truth by acting on behalf of God. I love this blog. In this blog I could let out all my discontentment with our church leadership.
I love all the bad story of SP, Deacons, & etc. I believe it is 100% true. To be honest, let skip the process of confronting SP & deacons of their sins. Let us jump straight to be God's tool to bring judgment & condemnation. The Bible say that God's judgment is hardest to bear, let give them some taste of hell.
To:Act on behalf of god
I’m wondering if you are actually KL Boy since you sound like him. Anyway, let’s not be sarcastic abt all that is happening. If you want to be sarcastic, I hope you will first reveal yr identity to the readers first before going on with what you are doing. Those who are really genuinely supporting the TT Group DO NOT want SP or deacons to taste hell, so my suspicions are that you are just trying to make the TT Group look bad with your comments. Let’s be mature about this as I’m sure you are an adult.
Act on behalf of god,
Stop being so childish! Your immaturity is showing!
"Met an oldie from Glad Tiding PJ recently. He laughed when he heard that we are celebrating our 40th anniversary. He said GTPJ is celebrating its 45th anniversary and GTPJ was birthed from Calvary Church. How then can Calvary be celebrating only its 40th anniversary?
He showed me the GTPJ constitution which was first adopted in 1963. Apparently two years after the founding of Calvary Church in 1961, the Bible Institute was started along Jalan Gasing in PJ. Rev Osgood, its principal, encouraged some members of Calvary Church to use that location to start GTPJ. My oldie friend was one of those who went over.
He was very excited and agreed to my suggestion that in 2011 GTPJ join with Calvary to celebrate our 50th anniversary together."
HM
What an irony..."younger brother" Glad Tidings PJ celebrating 45th anniversary and "elder brother" Calvary Church just celebrating 40th anniversary?
Somehow this episode remains us of the changing of "birthrights" between Jacob and Esau.
It's indeed unthinkable!!! My mother will skin me alive if I tell her that I will be celebrating my 40th birthday while my younger brother who is 2 years younger celebrates his 45th. Hope I did not get all you confused (I'm 47 while my younger brother is 45).
How amusing and sad at the same time.
Mystery's afoot! How come the Charter Members' Roll is MISSING?
...
"Although the idea of an English speaking church was mooted by Ps Guynes, it was Ps Baker who had the honour of actually officiating in its establishment. In January 1961 Calvary AOG was birthed. Robert Ng remembered that day most fondly, “It was a Sunday night service, about 50 or so of us marched proudly up to the pulpit and signed on a beautiful document - The Chartered Members Roll of Calvary Church”. Sadly it is believed that the roll is now missing although Ps Jones said he had left it in good condition in the church when he left."
For many years, too, bro. Robert Ng was even denied his church membership! It's a gross injustice!
One just wonder whether each time the things that church say or announces in the pulpit are true or not.
We have to ask for the discerning spirit each time we go to CC.
Hey, in the media release by Calvary Church when SP was awarded the Tan Sri title, it says that SP has been in the ministry for the past 42 years and he only got his title this year.
Did he graduate from BIM in 1966?
hello brader,
what's this about mother church, father church or even grandfather church? why do u people identify these buildings as church when church really means ekklesia... "those who have been called out", not church a building or an organisation.
also did you know denominations is a sin as spoken in the bible. sectarianism is a sin... paul says it twice. do not say u are of peter, of paul or of apollos. some plant, other water, but it is the lord who gives the increase.
by the way, i would like to check on something... is it true that the senior pastor of calvary church malaysia has been suspended due to embezzling funds? please clarify.
there is also one other thing.. whilst your church is busy with activities to raise funds for a certain building... do u really think this will honour the lord.
beware of ravenous wolves who come in sheep's clothing :))))
Dear Anonymous (at 11.26pm on 15 Oct),
From your query of "is it true that the senior pastor of calvary church malaysia has been suspended due to embezzling funds? please clarify", it is obvious that you are not a Calvarite & you are probably not in Malaysia. If so, much as I, in the flesh, would like to enlighten you so that the Truth will be revealed but, in spirit, I need to remind you that this blog is set up by Concerned Calvarites for Concerned Calvarites so that they can keep abreast & informed of developments at CC, plus they can share their views & suggestions of how best to resolve the problems brought onto CC by an apparent "fallen" man of God.
However, I (& many other Concerned Calvarites) would agree wholeheartedly with your comment that "whilst your church is busy with activities to raise funds for a certain building... do u really think this will honour the Lord".
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