Saturday, December 20, 2008

Campaign for a Special Audit

To ALL Calvarites who seek after truth,

It does not matter if you are pro-SP or pro-TTG. Or if you are sitting on the fence or do not want to be involved. You still need to know the truth. All of us want the truth. Truth and righteousness are the hallmarks of Christians. The only way for the truth to be established is for a special audit to be done on the specific events and/or transactions mentioned by Dr Lum and others in the blog.

Below is my letter to our two auditors requesting for a special audit. If you seek after truth, if you are not afraid of the truth, if the truth will set you free then please join me in this request to our auditors. The greater the support from the people of Calvary Church the greater shall be the encouragement and motivation for the auditors to act. Please get all your friends in the Church to support this demand for truth and transparency. If they cannot email, please do it for them.

Please email the following short message to:
Bro Tam Kok Meng at tamkm@adventconsulting.com.my and
Bro Chow Sang Hoe at sanghoechow@gmail.com with
cc to Calvary Today at calvarytoday@gmail.com
(cc to Calvary Today is merely to facilitate the counting of the support as the Campaign progresses)

"Subject: Special audit of specific events and/or transactions in Calvary Church

I endorse and fully support the request of Bro Wong Hong Meng for a special audit on the specific events and/or transactions listed in his letter to you of 20th December 2008.

(Your Name)
(Voting member/associate member/regular worshipper)

Calvary Church”

Calvary Today would keep your name confidential. It would not be posted on the blog. Please do this for the sake of truth and righteousness.

Please identify with truth and righteousness by wearing a white top this Sunday.

With His love and blessings,
Hong Meng

_____________________________________________________________

To: Bro Chow Sang Hoe, Calvary Church auditor
Bro Tam Kok Meng, Calvary Church auditor
cc: Rev Ong Sek Leang, General Superintendent, AOG Malaysia
From: Wong Hong Meng
Date: 20th December 2008
Re: Special audit of specific events and/or transactions

I take comfort that both of you are members of MIA and hold audit licences from the Minister of Finance. You were elected by the members as auditors for Calvary Church at the last AGM in March 2008. You are therefore, jointly and severally, responsible and accountable to the members at general meetings for the audit on the entire church and all its activities including but not limited to the Missions Department, the extended ministries, the auxiliary ministries and the outreaches. I have confirmed with the technical partner of a firm of public accountants that it is right and proper for me, as a member of the Church, to request that certain specific events and/or transactions be subject to a special audit including those that happened or purported to have happened in past years. This is particularly so when there are speculations among members of the Church that these events and/or transactions may not have been properly authorized and/or could be in violation of Church policies or generally accepted accounting principles. I humbly request that you undertake this special audit expeditiously and report your findings to the members in writing by way of a special audit report. You do not need approval from Senior Pastor or the Board of Deacons to do this audit. You are independent, elected by the members and responsible to the members.

Some of these events and/or transactions were alluded to by Dr Lum Siew Heng, the deacon who recently resigned from the Board, in his interview with Calvary Today. Attached are the two parts of the interview posted on Calvary Today for your reference. The revelations by Dr Lum must be given very serious consideration as they came from a Board member directly involved in the discussion on the events and/or transactions. Other events and/or transactions had been alluded to in the comments to the blog postings. I am in no way asserting that the allegations are true. The purpose of my request is for the truth to be established on these purported events and/or transactions so that speculation can stop. As duly elected auditors you have the authority and responsibility to establish the truth through a special audit on behalf of the members of the Church. No restriction or limitation can be placed upon you by Senior Pastor or the Board in the fulfillment of your role as duly elected auditors. If the Board or the Senior Pastor places any restriction on you or if they refuse to answer your questions, you must report the same to the members accordingly.

The following are the events and/or transactions which must be subject to the special audit:

1. That a love gift of USD10,000 was given by Senior Pastor to Pastor Delmer Guynes when he came to chair the EGM on 15 August 2008. This love gift was only informed to the Board and post-fact approval sought two months after the event.

  • Please report back to the members if this is true. I am not questioning the quantum but the payment and approval process.
  • If true, how was the payment made to Pastor Guynes at the time of disbursement? Was the payment in cash and in what currency?
  • Does the Senior Pastor have the authority to approve such a large love gift?
  • Was the post-fact approval minuted by the Board?
  • Was Dr Lum’s objection minuted?
  • Did Pastor Guynes acknowledge receipt?
  • Who financed the payment if it was not paid from the Church petty cash?
  • If a cheque was issued and then encashed, who signed the cheque? A cheque of more than RM5,000 requires one of the signatories to be the Church Secretary or Treasurer or another deacon.
  • If one of them had signed the cheque before Board approval, would this be a violation of the By-Laws of the Church as well as their cheque signing mandate?
  • Would you as auditors deem such a practice as acceptable?
  • Would post-fact approvals be the norm for the Board of Deacons of Calvary Church?
  • What would be your recommendation to the Board on this practice?

2. That the Missions Department paid for the overseas airfares for one of Senior Pastor’s grandchildren as well as the son of a deacon.

  • Please report back to the members if this is true.
  • Although the payments may have been approved by the Board, would you consider these payments, if true, to be proper and in compliance to Church policies?
  • Would the payment of airfare for Senior Pastor’s grandchild fall within the terms of employment of Senior Pastor or those of the child’s parents?
  • Would the children of other pastors or church workers be entitled to such benefits?
  • If yes, please let the members know which other children have benefited from this.
  • If no, then what was the justification from the Missions Director for the payment?
  • Was this payment declared as a taxable benefit in kind in the EA form of the child’s parents?
  • Would the payment for the deacon’s son fall within any scheme of service for the deacons of the Church?
  • Was this payment, if true, approved and minuted by the Board and/or the Missions Committee?
  • If not approved by the Board or the Missions Committee who approved it?
  • Does the person have the authority to approve such payments?
  • If yes, which other deacon had benefited from this provision?
  • If no, then what was the justification from the Missions Director for the payment for the deacon’s son?
  • Was this payment declared as a taxable benefit in kind in the EA form of the deacon?
  • If no EA form had been issued for the deacon would you deem this to be an incident of possible tax evasion?

3. That Pam Guneratnam and Jim Guneratnam were given scholarships to study in the United States by the Church.

(When the scholarship was given to Pam Guneratnam, I personally checked with Dr Paul Nah, a deacon at that time. His answer to me was that if the Church did not give the scholarship, Senior Pastor would have to borrow money to finance her education. I was very surprised.)

  • Please verify and report back to the members if one or both of Senior Pastor’s children were given scholarships by the Church.
  • How much money was expended on the scholarships, if any, and over what period?
  • Would the scholarship cover Pam Guneratnam’s post-graduate studies?
  • Were these scholarships, if true, approved and minuted by the Board?
  • Does the Church have a scholarship scheme for the children of pastors and church workers?
  • If yes, which other pastors’ children had received the scholarship?
  • If no, then what was the justification for the scholarships given to Senior Pastors’ two children?
  • Would the scholarships for Senior Pastor’s two children fall within the terms of employment for Senior Pastor?
  • If the scholarships were not part of the general scheme of service of the Church, were the payments declared as a taxable benefit in kind in the EA form for Senior Pastor?

4. That medical expenses amounting to approximately RM40,000 was paid from Church funds for Senior Pastor’s grandchild soon after birth.

  • Please verify and report back to the members if this is true. I am not questioning the provision of financial assistance in the face of an unusual medical condition. I seek to understand Church policy on such payments and the approval process.
  • Was it within the terms of employment for the child’s parents?
  • Was this payment approved and minuted by the Board?
  • Was the payment within the general scheme of service for pastors and church workers?
  • If yes, which other pastors’ children had received this medical benefit?
  • Was the benefit made available to Pastor David Seah?
  • If no, then what was the Board justification for this differential in treatment?

5. That the Church reimbursed Senior Pastor RM15,000 for his membership fees at the Jackie Chan’s California Fitness gym in Mid-Valley.

  • Please verify and report back to the members if this is true.
  • Was the payment within the terms of employment for Senior Pastor?
  • How long after Senior Pastor joined the Fitness club as a member was the reimbursement requested?
  • Is the membership in the name of the Church or in the personal name of Senior Pastor?
  • Any other pastor or church worker given this benefit?

6. That in the eleven years that Dr Lum was on the Board Senior Pastor had never declared the monies he received from his local and overseas ministries to the Board of Deacons.

  • Please check the Board minutes to determine if this is true.
  • Is it also true for Senior Associate Pastor?
  • Are all other pastors and church staff required to declare to the Board or a superior authority all monies received in their ministries?
  • If all others are required to declare and if Senior Pastor and Senior Associate Pastor are not, what is the Board’s justification for this departure from policy?
  • If the policy also applies to Senior Pastor and Senior Associate Pastor, please obtain from them a declaration as to the total amount of all such monies received from both local and overseas ministries for the last twelve years.
  • Please also obtain from them a declaration whether the monies were brought back into Malaysia or deposited off-shore.

7. That our Ampang outreach Pastor, Sister Adeline Koh, was paid a salary of RM250 a month over the past 7-8 months.

  • Please verify and report to the members if this is true.
  • Please also verify if she was living in the store room of the Church.
  • Is the RM250 per month within the salary range of the Church for this category of staff?
  • Are there others earning a similar salary?
  • Is there any staff of similar qualification and with similar ministry responsibilities earning a significantly different salary?
  • Who determined the salary for Sister Adeline Koh?
  • Does the person have the authority to determine the salary?
  • Is this treatment of Sister Adeline Koh, if true, in violation of Malaysian labour laws?

8. That the love offering collected at a youth meeting for Rev. Phil Stevenson from the Perth International City Church was never given to him.

  • Please check with the youth leaders to verify and report back to the members if this is true.
  • Apparently the collection was announced and made in his presence. Was Pastor Phil aware of the collection?
  • What was the amount collected?
  • If not given to Pastor Phil, where did the money end up? Into which fund or account?
  • Who made this decision?
  • Does he/she have the authority to make this decision?
  • What was the justification for the decision not to give the collection to Pastor Phil?
  • What was the amount given to Pastor Phil as a love gift?
  • Please seek written confirmation if there are other similar instances where offerings were collected for a specific invited speaker and then not given to the speaker?

9. That the salaries (stipend) of Senior Pastor's children and their spouses are not made known to the Board. Their annual appraisals are done by Senior Pastor and he decides with the deacon for human resource on their salary increments, unknown to the other deacons.

  • Please verify and report back to the members if this is true.
  • If true, what is the Board justification of their acceptance of this practice?
  • Please also verify if the annual increments over the last few years given to Senior Pastor’s children and spouses were reasonable when compared to other pastors and staff of the Church.
  • Are there any other pastor or staff whose annual appraisal and/or salary and annual increment are not made known to the entire Board of Deacons?
  • Do you as auditors find this practice acceptable?
  • What recommendation would you give to the Board?

The people in Calvary Church need to know the truth. We deserve the truth. You have the ability and the power to give us the truth. Please do not disappoint us. Let the truth set us free.

Thanking you.

Yours in Christ,
Signed:

Wong Hong Meng

p.s. This memo would be released to the people of Calvary Church.


274 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   1 – 200 of 274   Newer›   Newest»
Anonymous said...

I fully endorse HM's call for a special audit on the events/transactions listed by sending the message to both auditors. Let the truth surface for in God's Light nothing can be hidden from Him. TTG will prevail in CC. God bless.

Anonymous said...

Thanks Bro Hong Meng for taking the trouble to write to our two auditors. I fully support the call for the special audit to seek the truth and transparency. I've personally emailed the auditors my endorsement/support for Bro Hong Meng's request.

God bless.

Anonymous said...

I support this call for special audit also. It is long overdue.

Let the truth surface.

JESUS is the way , the truth and the life.

Anonymous said...

Let me introduce ourselves, I am Kenny Lim (currently pastoring a church in Melaka). My wife is Valerie Chin( one of the 70 who moved from Jalan Sayor to DH). We have just got to know the happenings in CC and having read them it grieved our hearts as it would have also grieved the Lord. Due to this we are setting apart the next 7 days to fast and pray for all of you to be healed and restored. When we left CC we were also hurting but God in His love and faithfulness has restored us. I believe God in His mighty grace would bring about restoration to CC. Praying that the will of God be done.

Anonymous said...

Dear Bro Hong Meng,

I am very sorry to deviate from the subject content when I posted the comment. I just want to encourage you guys as I know deep inside you must be hurting too.

Anonymous said...

I'm also in full support of HM's move and I've already emailed my message to the 2 auditors. My wife and I will also be in white top tomorrow. God bless.

Anonymous said...

I am in full agreement with HM's notion. I believe that our auditors have the abilities and wisdom to investigate and report back to concerned members with regard to the alleged wrong doings reported by Dr. Lum's(just resigned deacon)interview.The alleged wrong doings are disturbings because of the lack of transparancy regarding how Calvary Ministries spend monies collected from members. I believe that we as church members/contributors have a need and a right to know what is going on. Not only that we have a right to know the facts from all relevant sources but we also plead that the auditors will be able to provide correct information about the accusations that had been made.
If the allegations here are found to be the truth ie. monies that are being diverted from exempted charitable purposes to the personal benefit of any individuals is tatamount to a tax fraud.
In the secular world they are closely monitor by the IRB to ensure that they do not violate the law and as such we as a church should not expect a free ride. If the church have violated the law the penalities can be severed, not only could church lose this tax-exempted status but they could also be fine or their leaders held liable.
Finally, dear all Calvarites please email to the auditors for Truth and Transparency. God Bless.

Anonymous said...

I am supportive to Bro.Hong Meng's call for a special audit on the specific events and/or transactions listed in his letter to the auditors.

I pray for our auditors that they will carry out the task entrusted to them without fear or favor.

God bless

Anonymous said...

Surely God can not be shaken, whatever pg, pg's wife, bod and the pastors, have done, |God's eyes is watching from the heavenly throne,

SUPPORT the auditors to check through every request in details, let TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY review...... members & worshippers need the true pictures.

GB

Anonymous said...

I have sent my emails to our church auditors requesting them to conduct a special audit on the specific events and/or transactions listed in Bro. Hong Meng's letter to the auditors of 20th December 2008 so as to restore confidence in our church.

I will be wearing white shirt for church services until the Truth, Transparency and Good Governance in our church is restored.

MH said...

I have also sent an email to the auditors to endorse and support Uncle Hong Meng's request for a special audit.

Will also be wearing white to church tomorrow.

Anonymous said...

wasta control freak 1nna say hi

Like that also need approval meh for football


No wonder many single (or married) calvarites are unhappily unmarried (or married with problems) because didn't get PG/PGFF approval (or got fixed/approved). Wasta called this type of leaders....

Personally i know a few people like that.

OK..OK..
I wanna copy of memo at the entrance gate besok. Let me know when to wave (u know like wave at stadium) it during service.

Anonymous said...

wasta control freak

Let me know when to wave (u know like wave at stadium) it during service. I wanna bring TTG memo to 1. the Lord in prayer & 2. the Auditors.

Anonymous said...

All Concerned Calvarites,

I have been AMAZED & GREATLY TROUBLED over the revelations of PG's misdeeds over the last 10 months, such as - according others his "Legs On The Table" (LOTT) treatment, paying trainee pastor below the poverty line (such that she had to live in a store room), practising double standards, telling half-truths, supporting HJK in his "up the figure" episode, etc., etc.

To think that such things can happen in our beloved church, a so-called Fountain Head church. Perhaps, God wants CC to be the Fountain Head church for Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) so that all churches within & beyond Malaysia can look to & learn from CC what NOT to do in their church & how to go about to establish TTG in their church.

To God Be The Glory !!!

Oh Yes, I have sent my email to the 2 auditors & I shall be wearing a WHITE shirt for Sunday services, until the Truth is restored at CC, with effect from tomorrow.

The TRUTH is still out there.

May God reveal it to the 2 auditors as He had revealed the improper transfer(s) of the RM1.9 millions, from Missions Dept. to CIM, to Lisa Low, KC Lim, Teng LF & myself on 21st June 2008.

Anonymous said...

This needs to be verified.

I was told by a church staff some years ago, that when PG's new-born grandson had a heart-ailment & needed an operation, the church paid for the operation, which most people know, BUT what many do NOT know is that, the Singapore church of PG's good friend, RL, made a collection of S$60,000/- for PG, purportedly to help out with the costs of his grandson's operation. Was this amount of S$#60,000/- returned to the church to cover the amount already paid by CC for the operation?

I think the auditors need to check this out!

Anonymous said...

We emailed the church auditors for special audit per Bro. Hong Meng.

We will wear white in church.

Tuck Yun and Karen Choy

Anonymous said...

Wearing white top means little challenge to me, cause white top is too general to view real CT & TTG supporters. What I mean is that on normal Sunday, you will see 60% of people wearing white, oat white or beige on public. Most musicians & usher will be wearing white shirt & black tie. Does that means CT & TTG had all the supports from musicians & ushers? Of course not. Then it is too general for us to claim that we have so much supporters.

Why not we all wear red or blue, with color that is more distinguish, so we can see our true supporters in church?

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous at 10.10pm,

Don't try to confuse the Concerned Calvarites for you sound like a PG supporter.

Don't you know that WHITE is the colour for Truth. Even our Lord Jesus is often portrayed in WHITE in films & books.

WHITE it shall be until the Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) is restored in CC.

Anonymous said...

I think we shud do this one step at a time...start with this wearing of white tops. The TTG group has more supporters than they are aware of, and I'm sure if they were to organize a meeting or even a protest outside PG's office, ppl would come and support. I know I would.

Anonymous said...

Ah Beng,

Be open abitlah. Abit of suggesttion here then I'm PG's supporters. Don't lah over sensitive.

I know my point is valid. If we all claim massive victory seeing many wearing white top tomorrow, PG's supporters will tease us by saying we are exaggerating our number by wearing a white top that is too general. Most musicians will be wearing formal white top & tie, usher too. Even when Pastor took off their jacket, you will see white top & tie. I will wear white too, but this is the thing & teasing I foresee to get from PG's supporters.

Anonymous said...

It is crucial that Truth & Righteousness be established in Calvary Church again. Since 1 March 2008 we have been disturbed by the stand taken by SP, APs and BOD.

We have tried through many means to communicate and persuade our leaders that matters to be honestly and truthfully handled by the Church leadership but sadly it was just simply brushed aside and till todate more and more disturbing and shocking revelations have been unravelled.

The truth must be establised and it is necessary to do so otherwise as a Church we can't move forward. Furthermore, the whole Body is hurting and suffering.

I fully agree with Bro Hong Meng's request for a special audit on the pertinent transactions so the truth can be made known to members and regular worshippers. If it is right why should SP, APs and BOD be so resistent to let us know?

Both my husband and I have written to the auditors to support Bro Hong Meng's request. We would encourage all in support of standing up for the truth, to also give your full support to this cause.

As members of the Body we have every right to know the truth. In fact, we do not have to ask or beg for it, our leaders must let us know. If not, we are living in a false and deceptive church environment and this is absolutely displeasing to the Lord.

It will make a mockery of our belief if we condone and close our eyes when matters are not honestly and truthfully dealt with in our church.

Outsiders are also watching and observing how our leaders are going to handle the situation.

We are all in support that the matters be fully investigated and the truth be given to us, no more cover-ups or half or non disclosures anymore.

Now is the time for resolving the matters openly and in a honest and truthful manner. It has been delayed far too long.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 10.10pm & at 10.54pm,

WHITE it shall be & we will not be so naive as to claim victory if there are more people wearing WHITE than coloured. God's victory will be when PG & BOD step down & repent for their past misdeeds & inaction. Then we will know that our action in love has succeeded as our desire is to have them with us in heaven.

Btw, how long have you been blogging here? Are you "baru lai" ah? We have all agreed that all bloggers MUST have their unique moniker & NOT use Anonymous; but you are still persisting - either you are new to CT or you are stubborn. Hope that it is the former.

Anonymous said...

Ah Beng No. 2,

I will be in white tomorrow, how about you?

I have sent my email to the auditors, have you?

Anonymous said...

dear ah beng, think anonymous has a point, but think that it is too late to change colour coz it might confuse ppl, so we better just stick to white la.

dear anonymous, we just wear white la and if u see other ppl wearing white tomorrow and they see u wearing white and if both of u exchange knowing glances at each other,then u will know that both of u are on the side of truth lo. hope that helps. don't bother what the TTG opposers or pastors will say abt this la. we know they will forever be in denial.

Anonymous said...

Hi Ah Beng,

My wife & I will definitely be in white. Just bought myself a Christmas present - white T-shirt of course. See you in church. Kudos to TTG for we'll overcome with our Lord's help.

Anonymous said...

LEAVE NO STONE UNTURNED

In the absence of a Truth Commission which BOD has not shown any interest to set-up, this call for the auditors to get the truth out is really an excellent alternative.

I would like to suggest that the transactions which took place during the ENTIRE tenure of PG as Sr. Pastor in Office to be investigated. 'EX-Calvarite's' revelation "BUT what many do NOT know is that, the Singapore church of PG's good friend, RL, made a collection of S$60,000/- for PG, purportedly to help out with the costs of his grandson's operation.." is yet another shocker! (Indeed, I for one didn't know of this collection)

Leave No stone unturned--so truth will prevail.
Calvary Church need a clean slate.

Anonymous said...

Three things we all can do to bring back Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) to CC:-

1. Support the "Campaign for a Special Audit" by sending your email to the 2 auditors,
2. Wear white tops at Sunday services until TTG is restored at CC, and
3. Turn Off The Tap (TOTT) at Sunday services until PG & BOD acknowledge that they do need our hard earned cash.

I have been TOTTing for the past few weeks. I have sent my email of support to the auditors. I will be wearing white at Sunday services until TTG is restored at CC.

May God's Will be done that the Truth will be restored in His House at CC. Amen!

Anonymous said...

Hey Ah Beng No. 2,

It GREAT to hear that you & your wife will be in white.

I hope that Ah Lian will be in white as well for tomorrow's church service. Not sure whether she is logged in or not.

Anonymous said...

if the musician are wearing white, we implied consent that they too agree with us.. otherwise, let them change color, TTG are truthful people, when they said white means white, black means black, no twisting ....

so let it be white tomorrow...

Anonymous said...

Board of Deacons failed miserably all these years under the autocratic leadership of Prince guneratnam.

It's time auditors must do their jobs to ensure justice. So, auditors, please don't fail the Lord. Expose all the nonsense of SP. He is a BIG STUMBLING BLOCK to many. Calvary Church will be much better off without him.

Fear no man; Fear God only

Anonymous said...

Just an observation.

For SP grandchild, since it is a life threatening situation, we would have donated the sum even if he didnit ask for it.

I am sure it will be the same if your loved ones lives are also threatened, more if we loved the Lord.

In a corporate world, in such a life threatening situation, a hat will be passed around or the company will foot the medical bills first, then the employee have to apply to waive the medical biils for compassionate reason.

More likely, the company will pay a certain part of the medical bills net from the insurance claim
and the rest , by way of monthly deduction.

What SP failed to do is to ractify
the payment to the members although it has been approved by the Board.

In this instance, the members would have agreed, then.

Anonymous said...

UN Observer is correct.

Many Calvarites would have risen to the occasion as we have done for many disastors, so even more so for one of us who is suffering.

Unfortunately as is PG's style - everything must be confidential. I wonder how many knew of his grandson's medical problem in the early days.

It is a pity PG regards CC as his own company and he has a right to do what he likes with it and his family as his total possession. CC is mine, my children and grandchildren - they are mine, mine to do what and how I like. What a deception he is leading.

Anonymous said...

It will be great if the ex-Calvarites return to CC and also wearing white!

Anonymous said...

PG and BOD has put up a Bulletin on the church board to accuse Dr.Lum of making erroneous statements and/or misrepresentations.

Dr.Lum, you should sue them for defaming you!

Anonymous said...

I think both commentaries of UN Observer etc have missed an important point. The issue is not about assistance assistance mercy and compassion.

Let's not distract from the key issue. The key issue is secrecy (not transparent) and second helping.

You don't go to a Singapore church to beg for assistance and then help yourself to further assistance from Calvary church.

That's unacceptable practice....
Is the sum donated by Singapore church not sufficient?

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr. Lum,

Don't be discouraqed by the latest tactice of the enemy (I mean, satan), & his henchmen, to discredit you through that church bulletin. The Bible comforts us that PG's sin WILL find him out!

To me, this is a declaration of 'open war' (spiritual), a fight to the FINISH between the powers of darkness (behind PG & his supporters) & those on the side of TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY & ACCOUNTABILITY!

pshn said...

1,2,3 Combination knockout blows of Muhaamed Ali

VC and I are delghted to support this 1st of a 3-part knock out punch i.e. the seeking for a illegality to floor him for a full 10-count!

Anonymous said...

Pastors, never privatise the gains and publicise the losses lah!

When Pastor grandchildren have problem church helps when church worker lives in store room how? Who help poor Adeline?

She can come to stay in my house OK?

Call me 0176615739

Anonymous said...

Can we consider writing to AG to investigate on these instead of using legal means?

Anonymous said...

No knowing how much they are being paid, members will help out with his grandson's medical bill. But with that kind of pay they can easily just take out from their FD and the bill will be settled. Do they need to ask for assistance???? Many are in need and do not know where they can ask for help.

Anonymous said...

some ppl hv already written in to AG Council on this.Awaiting for their response.

Anonymous said...

My brother died when he was 3 years old because my parents could not afford to sent him to see a doctor. He was having a very bad case of food poisoning.

Who did we asked for help?

GOD. but he did not answer lah.

40,000 where got?

Park Lah

Anonymous said...

Think providing financial assistance to help PG's grandson is not the real issue. Like some ppl mention, we would be most willing to give offering to help out his grandson if we knew abt it. The real issue is, if RL's church also provided financial assistance to pay for PG's grandson's surgery etc. and our church ALSO provided them money to pay for this surgery, where did the balance of the money go to?? Surely PG should hv either returned the money to RL's church or returned the money back to CC since it was already sufficiently covered by either one of the offerings. Pls check on this,auditors. We want to know whether the balance of the money went into their own pockets.

Anonymous said...

Sad to say, sad to see, sad to hear. God be with all the members. Though I am not a member nor an attender, I had gone through it all. I am an observer and I know what all of you are going through. Going to the AG Council will ends to naught, but only a waste of time. I believe even when the truth do comes out, what can be done? What will the outcome be? May God's counsell and comfort be upon you all.

Anonymous said...

I have sent my support and 'plea' to our auditors as well.

Let God begin to work!

Anonymous said...

It will seriously piss me off if the claim that the love offering made for Ps Phil Stevenson is never made to him is true.

What on earth man?

Anonymous said...

Just returned from baptismal service in CC. Was I shockingly surprised! PG assisted by DS baptised the candidates. I thought to myself, well maybe PG has changed somewhat, maybe the shepherd's heart is still intact.

Before my train of thought could go further, I saw the 2nd candidate entering the pool and she was none other than his own granddaughter, a fact he announced to the congregation. So I understood, and I'm at peace with myself again.

Anonymous said...

It looks like the lobby for the audit is about clearing the issue of Dr. Lum's credibility and to nail PG and deacons misconduct throught the years.

Between Dr. Lum and PG.... I believe Dr. Lum anytime. No doubts about it.

Between PG and the decons... I think they are "hand in glove"

Comelah Christians brothers and sisters in CC, when are we going to wake up?

If we can discern these issues, I am afraid when more wolves are in sheep's clothings, we are going to be devoured.

Do not be confused with grace, mercy, and kindness with wisdom and discernment. God did not want us to be just doves, serpent thinking required sometimes.

Don't bring shame to the body of Christ by being ignorant and simply being foolish.

Do the right thing and not doing thing right. Many wants to continue doing the thing right by being dignified without bringing inconvenience and hurt to PG and the Deacons.

This is wrong. Because the shepherd is drunk with fame,name, pride, money.. don't let the sheeps be devoured by the lions and wolves.

Anonymous said...

The bulletin put up this morning mentioned only 5 points which they claimed are misrepresentations/erronous statements by Dr Lum. Out of these 5, their explanations on why Dr Lum's answers are wrong do not seem to hold any water.
As for the rest of Dr Lum's interviews, ie. PG being given RM15k for gym membership, PG flying business class, PG's granddaughter's ticket being sponsored by missions fund, DS claiming we have 10,000 members and the list goes on, BOD has not even mentioned or given any answers for these. So does it mean they are agreeing that all these are then true and that they, the BOD have no justifications for all this?

Anonymous said...

Was in my thots for a whole week and feel that it is time to speak out ..
PG when I first came to CC I have such high respect for you and hv been blessed by your ministry. but now I am so saddened to see all that is happening ....
I remembered very clearly one time Ps SK said ...some thing that he does may not be wrong BUT if it causes someone to stumble then he will choose not to do it...that shud be the way ...others first !!!

Now in yr situation, you may think you are right But becoz of you many are discouraged , stumbled and even back slided to the extent of not going to church anymore...then may I ask " Are you willing to step down so that no more of yr sheep will fall or be lost ?" Do u still care enough for the sheep in CC to the extent you will retire graciously so that the work of the Lord be continued and the people will once again be united and serve The Lord together in love and harmony ?

Before u may have brought many to come to know the Lord but now you are causing many to stray and fall away from the Lord....is that your intention ? You may have started well but will you end well ?

It saddens me so much to see people that I know , stop going to church or just go for the sake of going ( as they cant accept yr preaching anymore !! ) so that they can maintain their membership ....becoz if not yr dear follower FL will spy around and claim never see them and strike off their names :(

This is all wrong so PG and family and BOD , please search yr hearts and repent and do that which is right !

I was reading Exodus 11 today and what the Daily bread said in its july 7 issue .." when pharaoh refused to let the people of Israel leave Egypt, thousands of innocent Egyptians died becoz of his stubborn will. "

So will it be your pride and stubborn will that will cause many Calvarites to 'die' spiritually ? If so , may God have mercy on you and the BOD !!

Anonymous said...

I am also interested in the results of this audit.

Anonymous said...

Hopefully, the special audit if ever carried out by our auditors without fear or favour, will not take too long.

Anonymous said...

Don't be too sure we can get the audit started. PG will try every means to block this, cancel this or drag this.

Watch and see - you know how he works. Documents may now go missing or new ones appearing.

Why can't we move? Because the BOD with absolute power provided by the constitution.

Wow! what power PG and the BOD has. Looks as if it will have to be God who will get them to do something. God are you there?

Anonymous said...

Dear Why So Long,

I trust you emailed your endorsement to the auditors.

Hong Meng

Anonymous said...

Dear Bro.Hong Meng,

I salute you for doing a noble things by writing to our two auditors. I'm surprise to see Bro.Alan in church yesterday after not seeing him for a very time, i think he still care for CC and I fully support the call for the special audit to seek the truth. I've emailed the auditors my endorsement/support.

God bless all of you and have a blessed day.

James C.M.Wong

Anonymous said...

sorry, miss a word
not seeing him for a very long time

Anonymous said...

Hi Hong Meng,

Yes, I have. As I have always said, I am interested in the truth.

Your call for an audit only serves to affirm my position on the interview in that opinions, speculation and rumors are no substitute for facts.

Anonymous said...

I wonder how many wore white on 1st & 2nd service last Sunday in DH? I went for 3rd service sadly only a handful wore white :-(

Anonymous said...

To Why So Long,

Don't give us your usual BULLSH--.

You DID NOT state that you have emailed the auditors to seek the Truth; by that I take it that you are NOT interested in the Truth, you are merely blogging here to distract others.

Have you fixed up the appointment to see KC Lim who is back today? If not, then as I have said earlier, you lost all credibilty & right to comment on the mess at CC.

Bye, bye WSL.

Anonymous said...

Hi "all 4 white",

God will be pleased with all those who wore white at yesterday's church services, I trust that you were in white too.

If you have seen shows on avalanche, you will realise that it always start slow & small before it gathers momentum & hit with a BIG BANG.

Likewise, the Move for Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) at CC started slowly with Bro. Hong Meng's 2 questions at last year's AGM & then to the "Teh Tarik" meetings in March 2008 at YMCA & KBU before it arrived at today's level when most Concerned Calvarites are shocked & aghast with the low standard of TTG conducted by PG & his cohorts (the BOD & APs).

To All Concerned Calvarites - the Truth is Still Out There so keep wearing WHITE tops at all church services & talk to those not wearing WHITE to disseminate & encourage them to support the call for TTG & to stand up for God.

Also let's counter PG's "Legs On The Table" (LOTT) treatment with our "Turn Off The Tap" (TOTT). PG may have 2 crosses in his LOTT, we have 3 crosses in our TOTT.

Do you realised the significance? Our 3 crosses include Jesus, PG's 2 crosses are only the 2 thieves; thus, PG's personal ministry (CIM) is actually "Christ Is Missing" just like his LOTT.

May God bless all of you & your loved ones. Have a Blessed Christmas & New Year.

Anonymous said...

"Do you realised the significance? Our 3 crosses include Jesus, PG's 2 crosses are only the 2 thieves; thus, PG's personal ministry (CIM) is actually "Christ Is Missing" just like his LOTT."

Huh?

Anonymous said...

Did anyone see the notice board in DH yesterday? Unbelievable! The things they said bout Dr Lum and the interview...not true!What is the church trying to do? Lie lie lie and think that they can fool people. Hope it backfires! Can Dr Lum sue them for defamation???

Anonymous said...

Dear notice board,

There are two sides (and many times more than that) to every story. The BoD is giving theirs. I know how it looks. I was a little taken aback myself but I understand why they would feel that there is a need to explain themselves amidst everything that is being said here.

Admittedly, I am more inclined to give more credence to their perspective but I think Hong Meng's call for an audit will reveal the facts of the matter.

Anonymous said...

Why So Long, what BOD put on the bulletin has too many holes in them and do not add up. Furthermore, the BOD do not realize that when they lie outrightly like so and put such nonsense on the board, they are just shooting themselves in the leg as there are other witnesses that can attest to Dr Lum’s facts. For instance, the lies put up by BOD on how PG does not hv the final say on the nomination of deacons can be easily refuted as I know several ppl who were previously in the nomination committee and who can testify that when they gave nominations on ppl whom PG does not like or whom PG views are too strong minded, PG will tell lies on how they are busy, they do not want to be a deacon etc. But when these ppl were lated approached on why they do not want to be a deacon, it turns that these ppl were not even aware of it..so PG is telling outright lies. Bottom line is, PG may have a nomination committee but he has the final say to whom he wants to see nominated as a deacon.

It sickens me to know that not only is PG telling lies, but the BOD are also telling lies on his behalf.

Anonymous said...

Dear BOD is lying,

I also checked this out with someone who was also on the nomination committee who told me that this was not his experience. Apparently, the nomination committee has a lot of independence at least according to this person.

I know there are opposing views. I wouldn't go so far as to call the senior pastor or the BoD liars.I just hold that there is room for debate and no one should claim to hold the truth without hard evidence.

Anonymous said...

I can personally vouch for DL's allegation that he was excluded from some of the BOD meetings recently.

On Thu 17th July 2008 when I phoned BF to make an appointment to see her at home, I was told to meet her at DP at 7pm as she would be there for a meeting. At 7pm when I handed her the Petition, I noted that PO & PT were walking into the DP office & they had taken extra care to walk behind me (as if they didn't want to be seen by me).

As I was driving off, I called DL to ask whether there was a BOD meeting that night. DL answered that there was supposed to be a BOD meeting but PW had called up the previous night to say that it was cancelled. I then told DL what I had witnessed at DP & I casually remarked that it looked like they are having a meeting behind his back.

I have personally lost all faith, trust & confidence in PG & the 6 deacons as they have NOT just failed me BUT they have failed the church (Jesus's bride) & thus, in doing so, they have failed Him.

May God have mercy on them.

Anonymous said...

Bear in mind that the BOD did not deny the following:-

1. PG and SAP earns more than RM35k p.m. combined
2. PG flies business class wherever he travels
3. PG’s granddaughter’s airfare to US was sponsored by the church
4. In reality, our church has way less than 10k members, ie. we only have 2-3k church goers.
5. PG does not declare his love offerings.
6. The love offering collected for Ps Phil Stevenson was never given to him.
7. Sis Adeline Koh is only paid RM250 p.m.
8. The payment of USD10k to Ps Guynes was done without the approval of the BOD. This was only rectified after payment was done.
9. PG has been preaching out of context in an attempt to condemn and rebuke church members.


This means that the BOD is agreeing that all of the above are facts. Thank you BOD.

Anonymous said...

To Why So Long,

Don't give us your usual BULLSH--.

You talked so much about seeking the Truth but yet you DID NOT state that you have emailed the auditors to seek the Truth; by that I take it that you are NOT interested in the Truth, you are merely blogging here to distract others.

To All Concerned Calvarites, do NOT be taken in by WSL's crap; he could be PG or BOD or AP in "disguise" as he is worried that the Truth will come out.

Btw WSL, have you fixed up the appointment to see KC Lim who is back today to hear the Truth from him? If not, then as I have said earlier, you have lost all credibilty & right to comment on the mess at CC.

Bye, Bye WSL.

Anonymous said...

The part on how the BOD explained the reason why PG does not need to be reappointed by BOD and two thirds of the members humours me. BOD failed to address the fact that why PG needs reappointment is because he is past his retirement age as per the staff handbook and for staff who are past retirement age, they need to be reappointed, otherwise they should not be allowed to continue working in church. PG and SAP are way past their retirement age and their reappointment has not been done by BOD and two thirds of the members, so they have breached our constitution.

Anonymous said...

Why so long,

I agree with you. No one should claim to hold the truth without hard evidence.

I know that you are open towards finding out the truth & I respect your view. But do you really think that HM's idea for special audit will work? I have second reservation to HM's or Teh Tarik Group's suggestion. I mean it is just me. Nothings the BOD do seems to be able to satisfy HM & Teh Tarik. That was just too many scenarios that TTG hit down everything church did unless PG steps down.

Anonymous said...

Hi The Truth,

I've spoken to a few members in the BoD since yesterday. The feeling I get is that they will communicate their position on this soon.

Either way, I feel someone needs to explain these claims from the interview.

Hong Meng's request for a special audit will also clear most of this up. Lets see how this pans out.

pshn said...

BOD’S POWERS OVER CONSTITUTION HAS LIMITS !!

RULE XIV (1) STATES: “The BODs shall be the sole authority for the interpretation of the Rules and Bye-Laws made hereunder or for the time being in force and as to the decision on any question of fact arising there from. The decision of the BODs shall be final and binding on all Church members.”

Unlike what some people would like to have us believe, this clause does not give draconian powers to the BODs to interprete the Rules and Bye-Laws of the Constitution whimsically in anyway and anyhow they like such that the interpretation is expedient and biased to only one particular party. Conscience should dictate that the following are achieved in the process of their interpretation of the constitution:

1. The BODs were elected by congregation to represent their views in a fair and reasonable way concerning all aspects of church management including the interpretation of the all Rules and Bye-Laws of the CC constitution.

2. The BOD is bounded by the Law of Natural Justice to be fair, honest and just to all concerned in the interpretation of the Rules and Bye-Laws of the Constitution

3. Most importantly, the BOD bounded by God to be fair, honest and just to all parties concerned in the interpretation of the all Rules and Bye-Laws of the Constitution.

I have listed a number of verses from the bible that testifies to this:

Psa 37:30 The words of good people are wise, and they are always fair.

Deu 16:20 Always be fair and just, so that you will occupy the land that the LORD your God is giving you.....

Psa 119:138 The rules that you have given are completely fair and right.

Pro 1:2,3 Here are proverbs that.....can teach you how to live intelligently and how to be honest, just, and fair.

Pro 2:9 If you listen to Me, you will know what is right, just, and fair. You will know what you should do.

Pro 20:28 A king will remain in power as long as his rule is honest, just, and fair.

Pro 21:3 Do what is right and fair; that pleases the LORD more than bringing him sacrifices.

THE CONSTITUTION CANNOT AND MUST NOT be position above the bible but it must lie humbly beneath it!

The BODs, in making their interpretations, should first kneel before the scriptures before they bow to the constitution.

For we are primarily a congregation of bible-believing God-fearing Christians before we are a secular organisation of people.

Let us refrain from giving amateurish opinions on this matter and hope just to get by. Do we have experts among ourselves or not? If not, let us launch out into seeking expert advice, go for the best and be committed fork out financially if we must.

Anonymous said...

Hi Anonymous @ 12:42pm,

You have a point. It seems that the only acceptable outcome for the TTG is for SP/PG to step down.

The only reason I am in support of this audit is because the issues raised from the interview in Pt. 2 are especially delicate and only BoD members will know what transpired. For this reason, I refrained from posting in Pt. 2 as I didn't have any information to contribute. I do feel that now that is has been brought to the forefront - and in such a negative light - the issues must be urgently addressed.

I would like to see it addressed mostly for the benefit of members like you and me who desire for the truth.

I think the TTG have already made up their minds that the only solution is to remove the SP of the church. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

Anonymous said...

If you know that your senior pastor is misusing church funds,ie. earning high salaries for himself and his family ONLY, using missions funds to fund his granddaughter’s airfare, using church funds lavishly for GYM membership, flying business class, fixing his Volvo etc. while the rest of the church staff are suffering having been paid low meager salary, would you still want a senior pastor like this to lead the church? I vote no.

Anonymous said...

Why So Long, pls ask the BOD what is their purpose then to only post 'answers' to 5 queries (I put 'answers' as I feel those aren't good answers given by BOD) while leaving the rest of the points given by Dr Lum out? Is it because they do not hv any good answers to those and so,need to craft up some justifications to them? Why not post ALL the answers to Dr Lum's interview at 1 go instead of leaving some dangling?

Anonymous said...

Dear The Truth,

I don't know the answers for this but as I said earlier, the sense I get from speaking to them is that they are thinking of the best way to communicate the responses to these issues.

Please bear in mind that I am an ordinary church member and have no special access to any information. Everybody here can ask any board member personally.

Anonymous said...

Well, I feel very strongly to say something here. From what has been revealed especially through the interviews with Dr. Lum, either parties (Dr. Lum & PG/BOD) could sue each other for defamation if what were mentioned by either parties are not true.

From what has been revealed thus far in this blog, any member of CC could just file a report with the authorities. I believe many more evidence would surfaced (Praise the Lord!). PG & BOD, DON'T PUSH YOUR LUCK!!!

Personally, it's very clear that PG has been running CC like he's running his very own company. No one has said anything except now. Or maybe some God-fearing souls may have voiced out to him, but to no avail. Thank God now we have a group of members who dare to stand up for truth, transparency and good governance.

What has been put up by the BOD on all the notice boards of the churches yesterday did not mean much to me. I always believe, if you want to do a job, do it well. Why only attempted to answer some of the questions raised and not all? I'm very concern with the points not answered by the BOD i.e.
1. minutes of meetings being tampered with.
2. the structure of CCC designed by a Freemasonry despite PG being warned or reminded.
3. payment to Dr. Guynes.
4. mission funds to pay for grandchild's and a deacon son's airfare.
5. outreach Pastor Sis. Adeline receiving only RM250 allowance.
6. payment of RM15K for membership in a fitness centre.
7. love offering for Rev. Phil Stevenson never given etc.

If you read the interview in the blog and Bro Hong Meng's letter to the two church auditors, you would get the whole list.

Some people claimed that the TTG members are only out to get PG to resign and they would be happy after that. I would like to differ in my opinion. I believe even after PG resigned, there are many things to rectify, especially with the church constitution. So, if PG is the current main stumbling block to revive the church, then sorry to say, he has to go, he has to go. But, if PG is willing to humble himself, apologise and have an honest discussion with the members, I'm sure with God's grace and mercy, the members would forgive him. CC would then truly be an example for the rest of the churches.

PG & BOD, the patience of some members are really really being tested and I for one do not know how long I could hold on before going to the authorities. The fact that PG and BOD has caused many members to be discouraged and stumbled spiritually and emotionally, in itself has disqualified them to continue to serve the church.

PG & BOD of Calvary Church, DON'T PUSH YOUR LUCK!!!

Anonymous said...

let's let the auditors do their job and audit the church books to find out the truth. PG and BOD better not restrict their checkings like how they did for KK Wong the lawyer.

Anonymous said...

"PG and BOD better not restrict their checkings like how they did for KK Wong the lawyer."

Assuming that this is actually what happened. We don't know this for a fact.

Anonymous said...

Why So Long, they did, rest assured they did. During the EGM, KK Wong was also careful to state that his opinions are only based on the docs that he was given to check.

And PG and BOD, Do not push yr luck is right. The memo put up by BOD on the board do not mean much. It however proofs that BOD will do whatever it takes to protect their 'god', ie. PG.

Anonymous said...

Just say a man stole something from my neighbour. But this man didn’t steal from me. Does that make the man a thief to me? Yes, he is still a thief.

Just say a man lied to my neighbour but told me the truth, does that still make the man a liar to me? Yes, he is still a liar.

So WSL, even if your friend who is in the nominating committee said that PG does not do that, there are others from the nominating committee who have attested that PG DOES do that. Does that make PG a liar? Yes it does.

Anonymous said...

To Why So Long,

My apologies that I had missed out your very, very short "3-worded" statement ("yes, I have") at 10.19am to Hong Meng, presumably to state that you have emailed to the auditors.

If you are sincere about your statement that you are "interested in the truth" then you needn't have to respond to various bloggers at:-

a. 11.45am,
b. 12.28pn,
c. 12.47pm,
d. 12.58pm,
e. 1.23pm,
f. 1.48pm.

besides your 2 other comments at 2.31am & at 10.19am; Why So Free?

Perhaps WSL is an AP or BOD (who is unemployed) or, worse still, PG; hmmm ........ I wonder.

May I suggest that since you have emailed to the auditors for the Truth behind DL's allegation, you should just keep quiet & pray for the Truth to be revealed instead of "shooting off from your hips" countless times.

Btw WSL, have you fixed up the appointment to see KC Lim who is back today to hear the Truth from him? If not, then as I have said earlier, you have lost all credibilty & right to comment on the mess at CC since you ONLY hear from one side (BOD) but choose NOT to hear from the side of Truth (KC & TTG).

Bye, Bye WSL.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Bro. Hong Meng, fully agreed with you. I am all for the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Don't delay any longer. Let's get over this and move forward.

Anonymous said...

Hi Storytime,

Thats an interesting way to put it. But don't you think that this scenario is different in that in our situation we both have friends who have served on the nominating committee.

-

The story should go that you have two people staying in the same house. One day the TV is stolen. One person says he saw the neighbor do it. The other says he was with the neighbor the whole time so he couldn't have done it.

They have given different testimonies. So, who is lying?

-

In our situation we have two differing accounts of how the nominating process is handled. I wouldn't be so quick to say that one is a lie but rather that we need to acknowledge that there are different opinions on the process and that there needs to be a dialogue to understand why there is a discrepancy in the testimony of both sources.

Anonymous said...

Why so long?

Don't waste your time here. You will get nowhere. Do you know why? Go do something else. Perhaps you will get better revelation.

Examine your motives!

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Anonymous said...

WSL, think my analogy is more suitable. Why I chose it: PG told a lie to Person A. PG told the truth to Person B. To Person B, PG is telling the truth but to Person A, PG is a liar. To other ppl like u and me who are not involved in it, we believe both Person A and Person B, but ultimately, PG is a liar because although he told the truth to Person B, he has lied to Person A. We are not doubting either Person A or Person B’s testimonies as both are telling what they know abt PG, but at the end of the day, PG is still a liar because he has told lies to Person A. The fact that he has told the truth to Person B does not nullify his lie to Person B.

Anonymous said...

Our Heavenly Father,

We ascribe greatness to your Mighty Name, for all glory and honour belong to You and You only.

We bring before You Almighty God our two church auditors, Bro Tam Kok Meng and Bro Chow Sang Hoe, whom You have given the awesome privilege and yet highly responsible role as church auditors. And we acknowledge that You have indeed called them for such a time as this.

O Lord we pray You will grant them boldness and wisdom to exercise their authority and responsibility to establish the truth through a special audit on behalf of the members of Your beloved Church.

We pray that both Bro Tam Kok Meng and Bro Chow Sang Hoe will discharge their God-given responsibility without favour nor favour.

We pray that no restriction or limitation will be placed upon them by Prince Guneratnam nor any member of our Board of Deacons as they fulfil their role as duly elected auditors.

We pray that if anyone places any restriction on them or if they refuse to answer their questions, Bro Tam Kok Meng and Bro Chow Sang Hoe will be bold to report the same to the members accordingly. And most importantly Bro Tam Kok Meng and Bro Chow Sang Hoe will recognise the privilege that they have to carry everything to God in prayer, and that You will always listen to them.

We know that Bro Tam Kok Meng and Bro Chow Sang Hoe will stand on the side of Truth, for they have acknowledged You as the Saviour and Lord.

We pray Your Sweet Holy Spirit will constantly guide them and grant them wisdom in discharging their God-given responsibility.

Bless them and their families and loved ones during this Christmas season, and may each one of us members of Calvary Church, including all our pastors and deacons and deaconess, continue to uphold them in prayer.

In Jesus' name. Amen and amen.

In Him,
Winslow

Anonymous said...

Hi Storytime,

Now I understand where you are going with this. I can't say I agree with the conclusion.

Isn't the nominating process done by committee? - Person A and B are in the same room with the other committee members and all of them interact with SP together.

Are you saying that SP has private discussions with all on the nominating committee wherein he 'lies' to some but not to others? That doesn't make sense nor does it jive with the account given by my friend about this.

Anonymous said...

WSL, you are right. PG meets with the nominating committee one on one, ie. privately. As opposed to what you have mentioned, all the committee do not meet together at the same time. Pls verify your facts.

Anonymous said...

Hi Storytime,

I was told it was done by committee. If it is such that he meets with each member of the nominating committee individually then your story is quite plausible.

I will check this out.

Anonymous said...

what I meant is that, WSL, you are right to say that is what I am saying. PG does it via private discussions.

Anonymous said...

Ok, WSL..yes, pls check it out. It is done by committee but he never said the committee needs to all meet together to have meetings. In reality, it is done one on one with PG.

Anonymous said...

I truly support the call by HM. Both my wife and me wore white top yesterday at Cheras. As I am one of the leader which had been blinded once but thank to our Almighty Lord Jesus for he has makes me see into the truth. The truth of PG, SAP and BOD being involve in selfish and material gain. As I had said before to some CC member, I would like to call the TTG & DL as the " Christian Knight " as they had sacrified merely for their beloved bro & sis. I urge all CC members especially the leaders to unite by endorsing HM's latest call. May our Lord Jesus Christ continue to interfere and bring about revival in CC. And for those had left CC bacause of the gross negligence contributed by PG & BOD, please please come back. For the house of the Lord ( CC ) belong to you and me. I plea with you to consider to come back for the sake of CC revival. Lets us do it and witness together the " TRUTH REVIVAL " on our beloved CC that once speak of " LOVE ".

God Bless,
Richard Tan

Anonymous said...

To a young person...

I notice that only one incident such as the Ps. Phil Stevenson not properly given his love offering has "pissed you off" I can empathise with you.

Now think of the many, I should use countless, cases of very bad and unhealthy church practices and lifestyle issues disclosed and revealed inside the two parts of the interview with former deacon Dr. Lum plus the events which took place before Dr. Lum "threw in the towel"

What if the shredder has been working overtime during the past several months after the EGM? Be discerning; be careful as the leadership has a credibility issue which is positively the root cause of the problem inside Calvary church.

Anonymous said...

PG...
Please vacate your senior pastor position asap!

A day will come when you become a pastor of 1... yourself!

Anonymous said...

Having "learned" a bitter lesson from the shocking and shameful relevation that Ps. Phil Stevenson was not given his love offering DESPITE it being collected at a youth meeting, the recently-concluded Youth Camp saw something unprecedented. The love offering was collected from the campers and the entire amount (RM2,850 - youth correct me if I'm wrong) was immediately given to the speaker Jeremy Seaward on the spot.

Opening a can of worms can certainly do wonders. Praise God for His Light that dispels darkness.

Anonymous said...

Why So Long & Storytime,

I can confirm that the nominating committee meets with PG ONE-ON-ONE, for private discussions on their nominees. During these SP & C meetings, with NO WITNESSES allowed, PG then eliminates those he thinks are NOT SUITABLE to be nominated, according to his opinion. The members of the nominating committee also were not allowed to discuss with one another on who their nominees are - no one will know if PG adds in his own nominees under the pretext that he/she were nominated by the committee!

I have been in the nominating committee before. Now, on hindsight, I realise why two of my nominees were eliminated by PG - they were both not "YES-MEN"!

I have already revealed this on CT a couple of months ago.

Anonymous said...

SUGGESTION - Feel feel to shoot me down, but perhaps we can take things a step further by designing a tshirt that supporters can show their support for 'Truth, Transparency & Good Governance'. A white tshirt with simple design/logo with a powerful tag line/ scripture. This will also be a good opportunity for TTG supporters to participate in our quest for truth.

Any thoughts?

Anonymous said...

A simple but yet powerful tagline could be:

" TOTT for TTG "

which means Turn Off The Tap for Truth, Transparency & good Governance.

Anonymous said...

In my opinion, the BOD are just as guilty as PG, PG2 and the AP's. Most (if not all) of the BOD hold top positions in their field of work. I am sure if the same situation were to arise at their work place, they wouldn't hesistate to respond or take action.

Such a disgrace to their profession! They really should know better.

SHAME ON YOU BOD's!

Anonymous said...

I support the idea of having a tshirt but perhaps not "TOTT for TTG".That might be a bit too strong. How abt "On the side of truth"?

Anonymous said...

Here we go again.

Why So Long?, I understand that you feel all parties should be given a say in this matter. However, there has to be a limit to our tolerance. The fact is that the TTG has conclusively proven that there is something very wrong with the church under SP's leadership.

The way I see it, there are 4 major phases to this 'war' we are fighting.
1: Prove that there were discrepancies in the accounts.
2: Take SP and the BOD to task for their errors.
3: Heal the division and strife in the church and set the church back on the straight and narrow path.
4: Eventually, welcome back SP as part of the family, once he has learned his lesson.

Phase 1 is over. We are in the midst of Phase 2. So when you, WSL?, insist on wanting to give the SP (yet) another chance to defend himself, you are flogging a very dead horse. It will take too long to list all the proofs TTG has shown us (check the blog archives), but the TTG have already proven conclusively that SP and the BOD has sinned and continue to sin.

Why So Long, Don't Bullsh**, hHaving said that, I think Why So Long, Don't Bullsh** is being very antagonistic (perhaps even downright rude) to WSL?. WSLDB, please treat your brother Christian nicely.

GMF Index Finger

Anonymous said...

To "Suggestion",

"On the side of Truth" doesn't tell much & they (PG & BOD) will hold that they are telling the Truth so which side are you on then "Suggestion"?

I think we need to have a STRONG & APT statement &, unless someone has something better, I will stick to "TOTT for TTG".

Only Concerned Calvarites will know the meaning of TOTT & TTG so in a way we are keeping it in-house.

The only way to bring PG & BOD to their senses is to "hit" them where they feel the pain most & that's holding back the CASH (or TOTT in short) - No Money, No Talk from them. Now you can do anything & they (PG & BOD) can still be up there talking & talking & talking as they still have the CASH.

Turn Off The Tap (TOTT) & let's see what they can talk about.


To "BLACK SHEEP",

I agree with you that "I am sure if the same situation were to arise at their work place, they wouldn't hesistate to respond or take action."

Likewise, if PG & BOD were to commit the same misdeeds in the secular world, they would have been put under Domestic Inquiry & if found guilty sacked by now.

Anonymous said...

Sometimes I wonder...

Is it CAVALRY or CALVARY (meaning PG and his troops, or God's church)?

Anonymous said...

GMF Index Finger,

Thanks for the post. I do feel that there is more than one side to every story. Hong Meng's call for an audit is in admission of this in that Dr. Lum's claims in the interview need to be verified.

I am curious if your 4 phase plan is shared by the TTG as a whole.

I still believe that we are at phase 1. Yes, the TTG has raised numerous issues but I don't see how they have proven discrepancies in the accounts. If you read into Hong Meng's call for an audit, he doesn't question the quantum given for various needs (i.e. SP's salary, children's scholarships etc). He is questioning the process.

I am curious about phase 4. What does it mean exactly when you say, "welcome back SP as part of the family, once he has learned his lesson."

Actually, I am also curious about the TTG agenda as a whole. I know the short term goal is to remove the current administration but what happens after that?

Anyway, I have not seen 'proofs' of misconduct. I have seen many opinions, accusations and insinuations but no facts. Dr. Lum's interview is not evidence. It is just his testimony. That is why I support this audit (or anything similar that proves to be independent, thorough and conclusive). Hong Meng's audit will serve to prove the validity of the interview and other claims on this blog.

Anonymous said...

Wah! GMF Index Finger,

Looks like you have finally "chin seng" ah? After finally seeing the Light & Truth eh!

Welcome to the side of Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG) lor!

Why So Long, why so long still cannot see the Light & the Truth ah?

Just go & talk with GMF Index Finger lor & he can enlighten you leh.

Anonymous said...

sigh, Why So Long seems to be a lost cause la people. Let him stay in his own little world of "I have yet to see any evidence of misconduct".He is in fact blinded if till now after reading so many true life encounters abt PG's misconducts, he still chooses to believe that PG is innocent.

Anonymous said...

some ideas for the t-shirt

1. Pro-TTG
2. Say No to LOTT
3. Save Our Church
4. CalvaryToday.blogspot.com
5. Jesus our King is bigger than a 'prince'

:)

Anonymous said...

To Dr Lum,

Do not be discouraged by the response from the BOD that made an announcment pertsining to some points raised in your resignation letter.

If I am not mistaken, you had raised 22 points but only 5 points were picked in this so-called announcement. If I have made a mistake in the numbers quoted, please correct me. It is evident once again that the BOD is selective and does not address the other 17 points. Why? Is it because the BOD knows that this is the truth and they cannot find a crack in these 17 points!

It is clear that the BOD is trying to create doubts in people who read the blog but who do not know this saga from the beginning or the many actions by the BOD or PG that are blatantly outrageous.

Since the BOD has now openly create an issue on Dr. Lum's resignation letter, I think it is now the right and proper time for Dr. Lum to post on the blog the entire text of his letter so that all who read the blog will have a clear perspective.

DR. Lum, I will hold you in high esteem even though others are trying to discredit you in all sort of manner.

THE TRUTH WILL ALWAYS PREVAIL.

Anonymous said...

WSL says "I have not seen 'proofs' of misconduct. I have seen many opinions, accusations and insinuations but no facts. Dr. Lum's interview is not evidence. It is just his testimony. That is why I support this audit"

HM in his memo says "I am in no way asserting that the allegations are true. The purpose of my request is for the truth to be established on these purported events and/or transactions so that speculation can stop."

WSL and HM are on the same page.

Anonymous said...

I'm on the side of the truth... (front of tshirt)

Which side are you on? (back of shirt)

Anonymous said...

The T -Shirt:

On the front: "We Love Our Church"

On the back: "Truth, Transparency and Good Governance"

Anonymous said...

PCK: I have always been on the side of the TTG, mostly because I know that their hearts are right with God. However, my personal doctrine of grace, mercy and forgiveness is at odds with the opinions of many TTG Supporters here (particularly some who appear Chinese-educated), who would like nothing better than to tar, feather, ride SP on a rail and run him out of town. I spoke up against the name-cursing and personal attacks and also the many rumours demonising SP being tossed around here (and which Dr. Lum himself debunked eventually).

The upshot of it is that I got labelled as a PG Supp, insulted, derided, accused, 'prayed for' in a sarcastic manner, etc. A group of people who appear Chinese-educated were particularly vehement in my denunciation. There's nothing I can do about it. Let people have their opinions, no?

WSL?, I urge you once again to look back at the EGM, look back at the AGM, re-read the blog archives. The TTG and TTG Supps know for sure that there is something seriously wrong, and there is concrete proof. The TTG may even have more concrete proof which they don't want to show us yet. So, you are always entitled to your own opinions, but don't expect us to pander to them.

Incidentally, the 4 phases is not the TTG's plan. I'm a nobody who is not affiliated with the TTG, PG, or anyone. I speak for myself and no-one else. The phases are just a means of explaining the situation to WSL?.

GMF Index Finger

Anonymous said...

P.S. WSL?, Bro. HM has detailed his findings of many discrepancies in the accounts over the course of several 'TTG Updates' circulated by blog and email. Some of the TTG are professional accountants who know their job. They have already shown proof of the discrepancies. These are facts shown by the TTG themselves. Don't confuse them with the rumours and personal testimonies spread by TTG Supps.

P.P.S. By 'welcoming PG back to the family', I was referring to the Christian body. I treat PG as just another wayward sheep who needs to be set back on the straight and narrow, another soul who needs rededication. That's all.

Anonymous said...

GMF Index Finger,

Your stand has been noted and respected. But please refrain from labeling others purportedly "TTG Supporters here (particularly some who appear Chinese-educated)"... "A group of people who appear Chinese-educated were particularly vehement in my denunciation" as such. Lest you are no different from those who was unkind to you.

The TRUTH shall soon prevail with the commitment from our beloved brothers (auditors) and the fear of God will be heavy upon those who are against TRUTH.

May the peace of God be with you.

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Anonymous said...

WSL? is indeed in his little world of denial, asking for proof of misconduct of PG.

I state here just one issue.

Fact 1. RM1.9m was transferred to CIM and CARED without knowledge of the members
Fact 2. after much pressure by TTG supporters and pushed to a corner, PG returned the balance of RM1.1 in CIM and RM0.4m in CARED back to the church.
Fact 3. The evidence of fund transfers are in the accounts and confirmed by Bro Edward at the EGM.
Fact 4. Bro Edward said at the EGM that each year, the money was transferred from Missions to CIM and then only subsequently ratified by the BOD.
Fact 5. Ratification is simply admitting that money was transferred without approval but subequently approved by BOD.
Fact 6. the unauthorised money transfer before BOD approval is CBT and a blatant disregard of rules and ethics or abuse of power.

If this had happened in the secular world, PG would have been handed over to the police or sacked.

The above are facts which are undisputed. There is no two sides to this story. This is misconduct, no matter how you looked at it.

Anonymous said...

Dear all. Peace and blessings and from UK. I am also going to email the auditors. One can only hope I am still an associate member of the church! As some other person wisely noted, my dad is initiating the audit so as to have a formal enquiry involving people who are trained to look into those areas of concern that we would like to either verify or annul. In essence… I’d like to think we aren’t concentrating on finding more ‘evidence’ (although that may be a necessary by-product of the investigation), we are earnestly searching for the TRUTH of the matter at hand. Again, the concentration is on ‘procedures and protocols’ as the basis for these alleged and other possible future problems stem from a flawed constitution which, if evident, needs correction.

Please concentrate on ‘Truth Transparency and Good Governance’, which is what ‘TTG’ stands for. Someone sometime ago coined the moniker ‘Teh Tarik Group’, which sometimes detracts from the true purpose and aim of the people involved. I hesistate to refer to my dad and the others as a ‘Group’, as it sounds exclusive. I assure you there is no such exclusivity. Anyone who feels the burden and a need for ‘Truth, Transparency and Good GODLY Governance’ can consider themselves in support of such.

I am far from home, and I can *only* hold you in my prayers. I grew up in Calvary, and I have served in my own way there too. I attended CW, had Tony Phang and Ps Susan as teachers, progressed to CAs and completed my STAR in Missionettes. I have assisted in stage management in various Calvary productions and, if I ever return home at an opportune moment, continue to do so when I return on my holidays. Like all of you at home, I am hurting as more and more information come to light. And because I’m not at home, like many of you, I get my information without ‘evidence’. With all the ‘information’ flying around, I pray for all of us to keep a cool head and that God will give us the discernment needed to piece together the relevant and truthful bits. I cannot speak to the pastors (SP, APs or otherwise) or the BOD personally as I am here and not at home, and thus cannot presume to know what they think OR their points of view. However, I can pray for the same discernment and a burden of truth-seeking and a true desire to see the church restored through the right means. The audit will be a way of continuing that ‘truth-seeking’ attitude.

Christmas wishes to my friends and all the aunties and uncles. I pray for peace upon you all during these troubled times. I may not be home with you all physically, but I assure you I am standing by you. (And in a change to my normal all-black stagework ensemble…. imagine me in white!!!)

Peace, Joy and Strength to you all.

Anonymous said...

Even though I have left CC for years, I support the cause for Truth & Transparency, Accountability & good church governance for CC (or any church for that matter), in particular for CC as I had spent a major part of my Christian life in this church & have come to know & love (& served the Lord together with) so many Calvarites, pastors, BOD as well as the ordinary member & those who have been denied their membership for years. If necessary, TTG can approach me to be a 'material witness' with regards to PG's sly & underhand tactics of nominating the deacons... I am willing to speak up for the truth (& would even wear a T-shirt to publicise the TTG cause!). It amazes me that the BOD would fear PG so much that they would even lie about this (& so many other things!)!

With so much evidence presented on CT, I feel sad for WSL who keeps saying that he still sees no evidence of PG's misconduct! I can only come to the conclusion that WSL is in cahoots with PG! At least Index Finger has 'come around' & even now sounds sensible & wise! But WSL? He's a lost cause!

Anonymous said...

'WSL could be right',

Thanks for quoting this statement by Hong Meng in his memo:

"I am in no way asserting that the allegations are true. The purpose of my request is for the truth to be established on these purported events and/or transactions so that speculation can stop."

This is exactly my point.

There's no need to request an audit if the evidence exists.

Through the request of this audit, Hong Meng and many here have acknowledged that there is still a need for proof.

GMF Index Finger, this is still 'Phase 1'.

Anonymous said...

GMF Index Finger said at 11.23pm yesterday that:-

"The way I see it, there are 4 major phases to this 'war' we are fighting.
1: Prove that there were discrepancies in the accounts.
2: Take SP and the BOD to task for their errors.
3: Heal the division and strife in the church and set the church back on the straight and narrow path.
4: Eventually, welcome back SP as part of the family, once he has learned his lesson."

Then at 1.34am GMF Index Finger stated that:-

"Incidentally, the 4 phases is not the TTG's plan. I'm a nobody who is not affiliated with the TTG, PG, or anyone. I speak for myself and no-one else. The phases are just a means of explaining the situation to WSL?."

GMF Index Finger, welcome to the side of Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG). Once you were lost but now you have found TTG; remember God is always on the side of Truth.

I thank God for giving you the wisdom to come out with your "4 phases". I am glad that you are now in phase 2 like most of us have been here for sometime already (anyway, better late than never).

We need to pray for Why So Long who is still in phase 1; WSL why so long still in phase 1 eh? Move on lah, you cannot be drinking milk all the time.

Phase 3 can only happen in the absence of "interference" by PG, BOD & APs. We need to change the flawed Constitution so that there will never be another such episode in CC - the SP has too much power & is now a dictator.

Thus we need PG & BOD to "retire" so that we can move into phase 3 by establishing the Truth & then we can have Healing & Reconciliation; for the Truth will set us free from this mess at CC.

If PG & BOD still love God (as they should) then they should be able to see the hurting sheep. If so, PG & BOD should just "retire" & allow the Truth to be established so that we can move into phase 3 BUT alas ...........

PG by keeping quiet & using the BOD (& even GFF) to "defend" himself has shown that he loves mammon (& power) more than he loves God. Jesus said that you cannot have 2 masters.

As soon as PG, BOD & APs realise their mistakes & repent to God, we can then have phase 4 which is to welcome them back to the Christian family.

We need more people like WSL (not to mention PG, BOD & APs) to wake up from their slumber & move on to phase 2 else we can't move on to phase 3 & it is not good for this spiritual "war" to prolong any longer than it should.

May God have mercy on CC, PG, BOD & APs for the continuing mess at CC.

Anonymous said...

WSL, hv u checked with yr friend who is in the nominating committee yet abt whether he/she meets up with PG alone or does the committee meet up all together to discuss the nominations?
True Story has confirmed what I heard from other ppl abt this as he/she was from the nominating committee too.

Anonymous said...

Dear Why So Long?,

You said “If you read into Hong Meng's call for an audit, he doesn't question the quantum given for various needs (i.e. SP's salary, children's scholarships etc). He is questioning the process.”

You are really crafty; putting words into my mouth. I did not question the quantum of Guyne’s love gift simply because it would be difficult for the auditors to verify as to its reasonableness. I personally feel USD10,000 is way too generous. But to verify its reasonableness the auditors would have to examine all previous love gifts to all invited speakers. Even that may not be adequate because Guyne’s job this time was to chair an EGM, not preach. I did not want the auditors to be distracted. Let them concentrate on what is verifiable so that the truth can be established.

More importantly, my not questioning the quantum is only on Guyne’s love gift. You cleverly extrapolated it to all other payments. That is not ethical. You must not take such liberties. I do not know what those quantums are. Just let the auditors focus on the facts and the verifiable.

"I am in no way asserting that the allegations are true" because I do not wish for the auditors to be unduly influenced by my opinion. They must come into the audit with a blank sheet. No assumption of the truth.

Hong Meng

Anonymous said...

hmmm...Why So Long doesn't seem to want us to question on PG and his family's salary or the benefits his family derives from church funds. I suspect Why So Long could be related to PG one way or another, which is why he/she is finding ways to distract us from PG and his family's extravagant use of church funds for their personal benefit.

Anonymous said...

I prepared long response to WSL? this morning but on second thought. it is futile talking to person like this. I rest my case. Yes hmmm, you are near there. Don't you see the arrogance in him?

Don't ask me Why I Know?

Ha! Ha! Ha!

Anonymous said...

Good Afternoon to all. Looks like WSL? is back and still trying his/her best to look for "evidence". Have been away for 11 days and now I have to spend the next 3 days trying to catch up with all that has happened here.

Anyway to WSL? and the rest reading, please join us in prayer tonight, wherever you are, to pray for our beloved church and for God's Divine guidance and wisdom to be upon us, as we press on for Him daily.

We want to make sure we are right with God as we celebrate this Christmas, by praying and seeking Him. "Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us." Romans 5:1 (NLT)

We meet tonight at 8.30pm.

Pray for:

1. God's guidance and wisdom in our pursuit for Truth, Transparency and Good Godly Governance in our church.

2. God's continual conviction in our hearts individually to do the right thing for Him. In line with Bro. HM's call for the Special Audit to be conducted - pray for the two church auditors and other church members to rise to the occassion and make a difference in seeking for TTG in God's Kingdom.

3. God's protection upon each one, especially our two auditors, as our real enemy is not "flesh and blood".

4. God's wisdom for the different Christian Organisations, especially our local AG Council and Council Members, to act according to what God would lead them to do.

5. God will grant us a joyful spirit as we prepare to celebrate Christmas.

6. God will give us a fresh start with renewed minds and spirits as we move into the New Year.

Have a Blessed Christmas Everyone!

Anonymous said...

Dear Bro. Hong Meng,

Praise the Lord for a clear statement. I am all for your firm stand on Truth and in partiality. Let no man interfere with the investigations and attempt to influence the findings.

To God be the Glory.

Anonymous said...

Suggestion for t-shirt : Know the truth...and the truth shall set you free

Mission OTM said...

Dear sis. Karen, fellow bros. and sis.,

Let's pray in unison starting 8:30pm tonight. Let us wait upon the Lord. For His Love and His Mercy, they comfort us!

Blessed Christmas!

Anonymous said...

i don't know if this will help or hurt the situation - but word is that local media/press outlets are already sniffing around the issue...

Anonymous said...

Wow this is good news for Tan Sri SP. He finally get all the publicity he has yearned for and for free too. Then his wife can get to parade in her designer clothes for every one to see. I notice, she has not worn her designer clothes lately.

Anonymous said...

PW LIED saying that the meeting has been cancelled just to exclude Dr. Lum?! Oh, my, goodness! The deacons just sink lower and lower...

Anonymous said...

Dear Sis Karen, this is our third days of praying and fasting. will be praying at the same time with you guys in Melaka on the six item. by the way my daughter Lillian Lim say hi, you were one of her missionette teacher

Anonymous said...

I stopped giving when the CIM plot was uncovered.

I wore a white top this past Sunday, and I will again.

I emailed the two auditors.

I pray for the TTG group (I mention K C Lim, Hong Meng, Liza, Siew Chyuan, Ting by name), Dr. Lum and each and every concerned Calvarite day and night. I also ask for God's forgiveness upon the Guneratnams, deacons and guilty pastors. I pray to God to call them to repentance and to step down.

Dear Lord, sometimes I want to ask You to hurry a bit. But deep in my heart, I know Your timing is perfect. I have seen Your miracles one after another in the affairs of our church. You, Lord, give perfect peace to those who place their trust in You and whose thoughts are focused on You (Isaiah 26:3) Hallelujah!

Anonymous said...

PW, I command you in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, to tell the truth, nothing else but the whole truth pertaining to the BOD meeting on 17 July 2008 which you purportedly informed Dr Lum that it was cancelled so that the BOD could exclude him from the BOD deliberations.

In Jesus' name.

Anonymous said...

Hello Bro. Kenny,

I remember you all. Thanks for praying and fasting on our behalf. I am really encouarged by your concern for us. We shall discuss tonight to call for a time of fasting and praying after Christmas, by the group too. Thanks for leading the way, which we will surely follow along in fasting and praying for our church.

Blessed Christmas.

Anonymous said...

Let us all pray during this Christmas season for God to move in His own timing as to how and when He wants CC to be restored to His glory.

Anonymous said...

GMF Index Finger and Why So Long are the puppets of the Institution.
Don't be deceived by their cleverly disguised explanations, continual crying out for proof and diverse attempts to cause confusion and to shaken our determination. Singing the same tune again and again.

BUT thank God we know the Truth is slowly but surely unfolding.

God is seated on the throne and in full control! Yes we shall fast and pray until Justice, Truth & Righteousness is restored in Calvary Church.

Hallelujah! Jesus Christ Emmanuel... GOD WITH US.

Anonymous said...

I'm still waiting for you to reply, WSL.

Anonymous said...

so where can we buy our TTG t-shirt, folks?

I wanna buy one..if possible, can u guys make it in different sizes, ie. baby tee for ladies etc? thanks..

Anonymous said...

Love God Love People says

For Lack of Transparent Truth (LOTT)

We have to resort to TOTT

For LACK of Church Ethics - Integrity and Accountability

We have to resort and campaign for TTG

To cleanse the church of SINS, Wrongdoings and Corruption (CIM funds for one) by most of our Church leaders (SP and his LACKeys) we are campaigning for a special audit.

We will campaign in WHITE.

Shall we have a White Ribbon with the Logo

" In search of Truth, Transparency and Governance...www.calvarytoday.blogspot.com"


White Ribbon denotes different causes in different countries. For us calvarites it signifies our ....

Anonymous said...

that's quite a good idea..to have a white ribbon as a symbol...might be easier to distribute also.

Anonymous said...

white ribbon quotes

"The title Reverend is accorded to a full time minister and is the HIGHEST credential...
An ORDAINED minister is one who is a person commited to Christ, sound in doctrine, apt to lead, preach, teach and witness; Diligent and Faithful in Exercise of the ministry, and WHOSE LIFE and CONDUCT are EXEMPLARY."

Can we say that of our illegal pastor/s?

It stands to reason why God has led us to 'question' our various so called pastors (with other titles which they deemed more highly than that of a REVEREND).

Anonymous said...

PONZI concurs

-with LL regarding leaving no stone unturned.

-that the prosperity message that PG preaches is "the more you give the more WE receive". Hence TOTT

we here equates Guneratnams and his lackeys

- the message that he is marketing reminds us of a Ponzi scheme. Its understand that PG and his lackeys (at the top of the pyramid chain) are reluctant to part with the ill gotten gains and prosperity.

Anonymous said...

Why So Long,

This is my simple observation-

When you asked for evidence, you are scolded by TT members.

When WHM asked for evidence via special audit, he was praised by TT Group. May be TT members have found a semi god!?

Obviously, WHM does not have any evidence at this moment, otherwise why bother to ask for special audits. Therefore, TT members' allegations and insinuations are definitely baseless and biased at this moment.

Genuine truth seeker will not make any allegation and insinuation loosely, unless supported by evidence.

Remember:

TRUTH = EVIDENCE

EVIDENCE = TRUTH

As simply as that, otherwise what you say is character assassination.

WSL, be strong, and be a good truth seeker and God will bless you abundantly. Merry Christmas!

Anonymous said...

The Star - A famous Tan Sri Reverend Datuk was detained at his home last night by the police for having committed CBT. His wife was also brought in for investigations. The senior pastor of a self proclaimed 10,000 strong church in Damansara Heights, the Tan Sri was found guilty of tax evasion and misusing church funds for his personal use. The Missions Pastor and Treasurer of the church have also been detained the night before for being accomplices to the Tan Sri's crimes. Trial is expected to begin next month.

- This might appear in the papers soon if PG and BOD don't repent and admit they are wrong.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 10.35pm, the 'god' or idol that you, WSL and BOD have been worshipping is Prince G. himself. Don't get confused, anonymous. Your blind allegiance has made you drunk with confusion. Don't drink and drive! Merry Christmas!

Anonymous said...

Dear True Story, Why So Long & Storytime,

I don't read this blog as much as you do but it just so happened I decided to go in tonight and chanced upon some issues about the nominating committee.

I know the issues surrounding PG is controversial and I'm not taking sides on this. I'd only like to state my side of the coin...

I was in the most recent nomination committee. Before I say more, I'd like to express that I would like to remain anonymous. This is to be fair to the rest of the committee. I'm not going to explain who we were or give details of what we said or did. Revealing these details is not my duty or jurisdiction. When I was given this opportunity to be on the committee, I did it to fulfill my responsibility as a good steward of God and of the church. Here was a chance for me to elect the leaders I wanted and that's why I accepted. It is for this same reason that I choose to keep details confidential.

Also I find difficult to find a response to all that PG has allegedly done, but I do respect his request that we (the committee) keep confidential the details of what we do as a committee.

I can testify that PG did not with me personally. The committee only met twice with PG, once to brief us and the second was to nominate together as a committee. We were told that we were not allowed to discuss potential candidates with each other. I don't know if he met with the rest personally but that wasn't the case with me and all the names I nominated were in the initial pool for selection (we have to select 8 names plus 3 backup to put up for nomination).

Between the 1st and 2nd meetings is a period of about 6-7 weeks. Our task was to come up with up to 8 names each. There were 6 of us in the committee that means up to 48 different individuals up for selection, out of which we pick 8+3 in the 2nd meeting.

Of all the names that are put up for our selection, PG will give his comments and view on the person being a deacon. Each of us was also given a chance to give our comments and views about the person. There was no force to accept his view. In fact I can remember 2 occasions during the 2nd meeting that we as a committee disagreed with his view and suggested that 2 particular candidates be nominated because of their good standing in church and in the corporate world, and they were in. We, or more accurately I, did not meet with PG or with any other committee member personally, before, during or after the nominating/selection period.

I'd also like to add that the current treasurer, Edward, was definitely in our nomination list. In fact his name was nominated by more than one of us, together with others like Han JK and Dr Lum, they appeared in more than one of our lists.

TJ.

Anonymous said...

Hi Storytime,

Sorry for keeping you waiting. I've been away from my computer all day and so as you can see I was unable to follow the posts today.

Okay ... I checked with my friend who was on the nomination committee and then called another person who I also know has been on the committee.

Their account is that there are two meetings. The first is a briefing which is conducted by SP where he gives guidelines for those on the committee to follow. The committee is then given some time (if I recall correctly its 2 weeks but I could be wrong) to pray, ponder and speak to different individuals who they feel will be possible candidates. Members are told to come up with 8 candidates. They then meet for a second and final meeting to discuss the suggested candidates and round them down to 8. Four primary ones and four secondary ones.

Their account is clear that they do it by committee and they are not engaged by SP individually.

Anonymous said...

Hi TJ,

Thanks for your post. As you were on the committee, I trust that you can attest to this more accurately.

But it is clear by your account that SP did not meet with any of you in private to vet your choices, right?

Anonymous said...

TJ,

When CC is in a mess, we appreciate and expect more Calvarities like you, to tell the truth and to save Calvary Church.

Not to take sides. Just stick to the truth.

Anonymous said...

Dear Hong Meng,

Thank you for your message. My apologies for seeming to take liberties in my observation of your call for audit. But I hope you understand how it looks from my position.

Dr. Lum does an expose style interview. Some of us question the validity of the claims in the interview. The BoD then issues a statement on Sunday saying the claims there are erroneous. And then I read of your call to audit. For me this only serves to affirm what I was saying in my posts - that Dr. Lum's claims are not facts and should not be assumed as the truth.

Your memo to request an audit in many ways proves (to me and to some others at least) that there is a lack of evidence in the allegations against the SP of the church from certain quarters in the TTG to demand a verdict.

As for the values in question for the other items. My apologies for assuming that you were applying the same for the other payments. I felt that it was implied. You did request for policy justifications for each individual item in your memo so I felt that that spoke for itself.

Anonymous said...

Heh. It appears that people still insist on thinking that I'm either a puppet, the same blogger as WSL?, or a 'reformed' PG Supp, or perhaps all three. What a joke. Never mind, keep speculating. That's all you people are good for anyway. The TTG at least find proof before stating their accusations. For you it's a case of guilty until proven innocent over and over and over.

I predict that after this, many people will write in condemning TJ for 'supporting' PG's side of the story. All I can say is that I myself concur with Anon 11:09PM; stick to the truth, no matter what it sounds like.

As for Anon 10:35, Evidence does not necessarily equal Truth. Evidence can be erased or fabricated. I agree that many comments on this blog is mere gossip, unfounded speculation and plain character assassination. However, the TTG members (not the supporters) have solid evidence of PG's wrongdoing, and I urge you to reread the archives and updates.

GMF Index Finger

Anonymous said...

seriously ppl, it doesn't really matter what u or I think or whether u believe me or I believe u, bottom line is that PG has committed too many wrongdoings and is still doing whatever it takes to cover up these wrongs, and he needs to reap what he has sown.Mercy has ended and justice needs to be served.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous @ 11:09,

Again, I feel it is my duty to be a good steward of the church body that is why I'm posting up what I know as truth so that all Calvarites will not be misled. Thanks for understanding.

Dear Why so long,

That's correct, I did not have any private meeting with PG or any other committee member. This is my account of it. I do not know if it happened in past nomination committees.

TJ

Anonymous said...

WSL,thanks for replying. I am not doubting your friend and I believe that both him as well as the ppl I heard from as well as TJ and True Story are telling the truth as they are merely telling us what they have experienced with PG.Perhaps PG has had a variety of meetings with his nominating committees over the years as the people whom I know have indeed met PG personally, ie. one on one, to discuss on their nominations.

The constant in all these experiences is PG himself. Stories differ because different ppl have heard PG tell them different things. Again, my analogy will be used. PG may have told the truth to Person B but he has lied to Person A and as such, PG is still a liar to me.

Anonymous said...

Dear Newspaper Article?,

For a moment I thought it was real.

For all you know, it might just happen. And sooner than you thought.

Anonymous said...

Dear TJ

"That's correct, I did not have any private meeting with PG or any other committee member. This is my account of it. I do not know if it happened in past nomination committees."

Your experience as one of the nominating committee members - it is good that you said "I do not know if it happened in past nomination committees."

Looks as if the revelation in the blog has some effect on PG. He has changed his ways.

TJ do tell us when you were selected to be in the nominating committee - for the year 2009 deacons?

Anonymous said...

Dear Oldie,

I doubt I will be selected again anytime soon.

Anyway, the nomination for the 2009 deacons would have already taken place. If I remember correctly, the 1st meeting was around October and 2nd one in December.

TJ

Anonymous said...

Hi Tj,

You mentioned that you were on the most recent nominating committee. Does this mean that you were on the one to nominate to 2008 deacons? i.e. prior to the AGM this year?

If thats the case then you were on the committee before the emergence of the TTG. True?

Anonymous said...

To Why so long and all the debates about the process/prodecures within the nominating committee...

The ding dong over this matter gives the impression that this is the only issue and the remaining issue....

Let's be calm as this is Christmas eve.

Let's celebrate in peace and joyful spirit.

Blessed Christmas to all

Anonymous said...

Dear TJ

Please give an honest and straightforward reply. It does not matter whether you would be in the nominating committee again or whether the meetings had already taken place. We just need an answer to this question.

Were you in the committtee for the 2008 deacons list - Yes or No

or 2009 decons list? = Yes or No

With your honest answer the matter rests with me.

Anonymous said...

Dear Why so long?

Yes, we met first in October '07 and the 2nd meeting was towards the first week of December '07... if I remember correctly.

As for whether that is before or after the emergence of the TTG, I can't say. I'm only stating my facts, I'd rather not give my opinion. I'm only trying to inform so that everyone will be aware.

TJ.

Anonymous said...

To Bro WHM,

In your open letter “Campaign for a Special Audit”, you have stated that “The only way for the truth to be established is for a special audit to be done on the specific events and/or transactions mentioned by Dr Lum and others in the blog.”

While you and us, Calvarites, are waiting for the special audit to take place and for the truth to be established, you could and you should protect the image of CC and all Calvarites by advising some of your TTG members to refrain from creating a bigger mess immediately, by name calling and mud slinging, so that the special audits could be conducted impartially.

Until such time the truth is revealed, in what manner can all these name calling and mud slinging help in searching the truth and in cleaning up the mess? People from other faiths are watching and it is not fair for CC, Calvarites and regular worshippers to pay the “price”.

As a leader of TTG, you owe a great duty and responsibility to advise some TTG members to act responsibly. More importantly, as a Calvarite and a follower of Jesus, you owe a greater duty and responsibility to protect the image and interest of CC, all Calvarites and the Christian community in Malaysia.

All that Calvarites and regular worshippers long for is a prayer-ful sanctuary to meet Jesus. Let’s make it happen.

Let's Jesus takes away the hatred and pain in the spirit of Christmas.

Let’s pray and put Jesus first.

God bless and Merry Christmas to you.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 10.46am, I hope you have also advised PG and BOD to do the same. We do not feel any love from any of them,so what prayer-ful sanctuary are you talking abt? So I hope you are not just doing a one-sided 'lecture'. We the sheep feel rejected and betrayed by our CC leadership, what do you have to say abt that?
Blessed Christmas.

Anonymous said...

Dear Oldie,

Sorry, I think your first question to me was meant to ask if I was in the nominating committee for the 2008 deacons list... your question asked whether i was in the committee for the 2009 list.

Anyway, as I just replied to "Why so long", and as I've been saying in all my posts, yes, I was in the nominating committee in 2007 that nominated the 2008 deacons list that was put up for voting in March 2008, is that clear?

To all readers,

As I said before, because I was in the committee, it qualifies me to share what I witnessed... so that everyone will know what happened, but this is just one of the years, I can't say that it may have been for prior years, I don't know.

And have a Blessed Christmas everyone.

TJ.

Anonymous said...

TJ, u mentioned the treasure ER was in the nomination list in yr 2007 nomination committee for the 2008 deacons. Existing deacons' names will definitely BE in the next nomination list, I mean..who wouldn't want to re-nominate the current deacons?
I think what Dr Lum meant was how ER's name was INITIALLY included as part of the deacon nominees several years back.

Anonymous said...

Hi Anonymous 10.46am,

I feel that you're being pretty unfair to Bro Hong Meng by insinuating that he has coz the reputation of cc to go down the drain with his request for the special audit report. I agree with 2 hands needed to clap, that you should also lecture the same to especially PG, BOD and some of the cc pastors.

In fact, I hold PG highly responsible for the whole saga that sadly have come to this present stage. His EGO is TOO ENORMOUS until he can't be bothered with the sheep around him and the whole church.

Anonymous said...

Thank you TJ for your simple factual comments. It will help many to discern what is mere opinion and hearsay and what the real situation is. If nothing more, it shows that we cannot assume anything. I remember the tagline for CSI ... "Assume Nothing", i.e. until the facts are known.

In the meantime, Have a Blessed Christmas everyone and God Bless! Warm Regards.

Anonymous said...

Discernmt Needed, bear in mind that True Story WAS also in the nomination committee before and his/her account is different. How come you didn't mention abt that??? not very discerning are you...

Anonymous said...

Who is the actual culprit,you're right. PG has enough yes men fighting and standing in the front line for him, so much so that he has NO time to bother abt God's sheep. He is too busy enjoying the prosperity of his wealth and too busy trying to network across Europe and USA to build up his reputation to care about what is happening in the church. He is the real culprit, so anonymous, pls go talk to him and spare us the lecture. Thank you.

Anonymous said...

If you compare what TJ wrote and True Story wrote, you will clearly see the difference of simply stating the facts (TJ) versus facts but stating more opinion along the way which cannot be substantiated. Go back and read True Story's comments to know what I mean.

Anonymous said...

Or rather, you are agreeing to ONLY what you want to hear and know. Selective knowledge is what I will call it..what you have is not discernment.Pls be wise.

Anonymous said...

God is everywhere> He knows everything...

Who has/have brought about and started this mess?

Who have permitted this mess to reach this dimension?

Who have contributed more and more to this mess with more and more lies and twisted stories?

Who has/have the means to stop this mess from inception before reaching this uncontrollable "epidemic"?

In His time, in His time, He will raise and lift up the faithful ones to clean this mess?

Come all ye faithful; let's us be still, be calm for this season of mercy peace and joy in truthful christain spirit

God bless all of you

Anonymous said...

Ah, TJ,

i am glad you wrote in - you were on the committee in 2007, last year. PG must have decided to 'go straight' this time as he probably suspects 'trouble brewing' on the horizon!

I was in the nominating committee about 10 years ago.

I reiterate...only ONE meeting together with the rest of the committee, with PG where he gave us instructions on how to nominate, i.e. choose godly leaders, to fast & pray as we nominate. After each of us had submitted our lists to him privately, through his private secretary, an appointment was later made by his secretary with me, to meet up with PG PRIVATELY, NO WITNESSES AT ALL! It was a one-on-one meeting - I can even remember the room where we met. At least two of my nominees were eliminated by PG on the grounds that they were not suitable to be nominated.

Anonymous said...

Thank you True Story for being bold enough to share your factual experience in the nominating committee. A Blessed Christmas to you!

Anonymous said...

Thankyou True Story for putting things in perspective vis-a-vis your experience in the nomination process/committee.

Anonymous said...

Discernment Needed,

What are you insinuating?

I can even remember other leaders in the same committee as me & I am sure they can verify what I said!

But then again, I am not surprised by your remarks, as you are definitely a PG supporter, trying to discredit those who speak up for truth & transparency, exactly in the same style as PG & BOD who have put up that church bulletin to discredit Dr. Lum! Like I said before, I am willing to be 'material witness' should there be a need for it, perhaps in the near future.

2007 was just last year - what about the many years before? After all, PG has been SP of CC for the past 35 or 36 years! Just because the style of nomination has changed LAST YEAR does not mean it had been practised similarly throughout!

Anonymous said...

Don't worry, True Story. We believe you and we believe that there are other people out there who can also testify to the same thing as you did, so rest assured you are not alone.

Justice will prevail at the end of the day, and all the lies and sins that PG has committed will be revealed to the public if he still chooses not to repent.

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous at 10.46 a.m.,

Please look at the sequence of events. Neither I nor the TTG started the “mess”. I met with 3 deacons, 2 pastors and the secretary of the Missions Dept in April 2007. I wrote to the BOD on 27 Dec 2007. I told my three friends of my letter in Jan 2008. I kept it quiet for almost a year. On 1 March 2008 the leaders were told by SP that the extended ministries were not accountable to the members. The first teh tarik was on 9 March 2008 with about 80 Calvarites. The second was on 15 March with 150. Calvarites began to find their voices. Soon after the March AGM and when the CIM issues surfaced I asked for a Truth Committee and a Constitution Review Committee (please see my memo to the Board and Pastors titled "Healing and Reconciliation"). This would have kept the problem in-house. My proposals were ignored completely. My meetings with SP and the BOD together with my friends were polite but unproductive, a waste of time. As usual all we got was the pleasure of meeting them. They had no intention of entertaining our requests. For the EGM some TTG members put in 7 resolutions in full compliance to the Constitution. All were rejected by the BOD using their supreme power under the Constitution. The EGM was orchestrated to fulfill the BOD’s objectives. We were essentially gagged. So some TTG members felt the only way for our views to be known would be through a blog. All the core TTG members are committed to maintaining proper decorum on the blog. Whilst the webmasters may be able to moderate the comments somewhat without hindering discussion, you must realize that there are many Calvarites just pouring forth their years of pent-up frustration, hurt and indignation through the blog.

Also please remember that the Bible did not hide the misdeeds of the great men of God. All of us do wrong but our response determines our destiny. David’s misdeeds were far greater than Saul. But David’s great repentance before God brought about great restoration from God. Saul ended up decapitated. (Please read Susan Tang’s “The Anointed Priest Who Sins” available at Salvation Book Store)

The TTG did not create or build the mess. It was the obstinate refusal to even acknowledge the possibility of wrong doings by SP and the BOD that has brought us to this stage. Come clean, set up an independent Truth Committee and an independent Constitution Review Committee. My request to the auditors is but a watered down proxy of what really needs to be done.

You probably missed my comment on the blog on 23 November.
“Dear TTG supporters,
I thank you for your support and for standing alongside us as we continue to bear the burden for truth and righteousness. I empathize with your feelings of indignation, frustration, hurt and perhaps even hopelessness reflected sometimes in not-so-appropriate comments on the blog. However, as we sense the crescendo arising we must be more and more conscious of the need to remain Christlike. We must not allow our values, motivation and behaviour to cease reflecting the love and character of Jesus. We must preserve our dignity, our self respect as well as respect for others and continue to look at others through the eyes of Jesus. Hate the sin not the sinner. Yet we must be bold and courageous to persevere in what we know the Lord has asked us to do; to bring back truth and righteousness to Calvary Church. The core members of the TTG have reminded Calvary Today of the need to cull comments which are deemed unacceptable or inappropriate including name calling and personal attacks as well as "scolding-prayers". References to the children and in-laws are completely unacceptable. We too have children. In so doing we shall enhance the discussion on the real issues. The current discussion on the post PG era is controversial but stimulating.

Today is the Lord ’s Day. Let’s be circumspect and reflect on our own walk with Jesus. Let even our blogging and comments be as worship unto Him. Let Jesus find them pleasing and acceptable. Let us be blameless even as we seek for truth and righteousness.
With His love and blessings,
Hong Meng
November 23, 2008 8:30 AM

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous 10.46am

Think not fair to put responsibility on WHM to advise TTG members how to behave. He has no control over so called TTG members/supporters coz there is no official list of TTG members/supporters, there is no organisation called TTG.

The core TTG 'members' with him all blog under their actual names. None of them has done any mud-slinging.

It is some of the ppl who blog under Anonymous and monikers who have done such name-calling and mud-slinging. If you study their style and words, you'll see several of them are the same person and possibly PG supporters pretending to be TTG members. Don't be surprised some of them are our dear pastors and deacons themselves. I've known these pastors and deacons for many years and their 'fingerprints' are there.

I hope this Christmas, they will repent of all their lies and stop commenting under hidden names and be transparent like WHM's friends.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Bro HM for the clarification. I hope this will settle the debates going on in here.

be fair la: Please be less antagonistic towards Discernment Needed. Your comments are very snippish and sarcastic. Be wise yourself.

True Story, Discernment Needed: Peace, brothers. The discord sown here is the work of the evil one. Can't you see what the devil is doing? Everybody blogging here has their backs to the wall, constantly afraid of being backstabbed by 'PG supporters' lurking in every nook and cranny, always suspicious of one another who could be another 'PG supporter' in disguise. This is the work of the devil.

Anon 10:46, Bro HM is not the blog administrator, so he has less say over what goes on in here than you think.

2 Hands to Clap: When I was a kid, my parents told me to 'give way' to my younger sister when she were being childishly demanding. This was my responsibility as an elder sibling. I remember the Cantonese term for this (roughly, zhau har ge sai, give way to the young) but not the Malay equivalent (mengalah or something like that). Apply the same principle here. If PG insists on throwing mud (which he has done before), then we have an option to do the same (and sink to his level) or to be the wiser elder brother and let the screaming infant be *wink*.

BTW, I don't believe in being 'extra holy' because it's Christmas season, or Easter, or Sunday. I'd rather behave exactly the same as I do to everybody the whole year round, and try to improve my overall behaviour rather than at selected times only.

GMF Index Finger

Anonymous said...

Hi GMF, I know what you're trying to say..be the bigger person / don't pay evil with evil etc. But in this instance, I am just the sheep, PG and BOD are the "shepherd" and the leaders.We're not the cause of all this, so I do not agree with that anonymous for putting the blame on us instead of on PG and BOD.That's all I'm saying.

Anonymous said...

ya, i heard too that the press is looking into the rumblings at cc. wonder how long before it is all splashed on the papers? not good, going to be embarrassing for all lor. :-(

Anonymous said...

Thanks TJ for the clarification that end 2007 you were in the norminating committee for the 2008 deacson.

Already the rumblings were already felt by PG early 2007 and as he had already enough yes-men in his board he would not care very much who else would be elected. His yes-men would swing the vote. We are very aware of his style.

Anonymous said...

Yes, Christmas is "ordinary" as it is just another day, no "holier/special" than any other days and yet it is "special" as we specifically focus and meditate on our Saviour's birth which was God's love in action.

A Blessed Christmas to All! And may God richly shower His Love, Peace, Joy and Presence to each and everyone! God Bless!

Anonymous said...

You know, I logged on here with the expectancy of more mudslinging... but for the first time, I didn't see that. That's probably one of the happiest things I've seen this Christmas.

Merry Christmas, everybody. God's blessings on you all. =D

GMF Index Finger

Anonymous said...

With all the strong feelings being bandied about, I append a Letter from Heaven below as a "Wake up Call" . Might I also suggest a 3 day pause to allow all Calvarites (pro PG or pro TTG) to concentrate on the real meaning of Christmas. The true meaning of Christmas is Love. John 3:16-17 says, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the World, but to save the World through him." The true meaning of Christmas is the celebration of this incredible act of love to save our souls from eternal separation from God (Hell).

The real Christmas story is the story of God's becoming a human being in the person of Jesus Christ. Why did God do such a thing? Because He loves us! Why was Christmas necessary? Because we needed a Saviour! Why does God love us so much? Because He is love itself (1 John 4:8). Why do we celebrate Christmas each year? Out of gratitude for what God did for us, we remember His birth by giving each other gifts, worshipping Him, and being especially conscious of the poor and less fortunate.

The true meaning of Christmas is love. God loved His own and provided a way—the only Way—for us to spend eternity with Him. He gave His only Son to take our punishment for our sins. He paid the price in full, and we are free from condemnation when we accept that free gift of love. "But God demonstrated His own love for us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

Let us remember and consider the poor, cold and hungry survivors of the terrible Wenchuan earthquake in Sichuan this cold Winter , the poor farmers in Myanmar and Sudan whose plates are empty and as we eat a wonderful Christmas dinner, pray for them, their situation and their souls. For that is the true spirit of Christmas that we, as committed Christians, are called to serve. Find people who are lonely and poor in Kuala Lumpur and love them! Give them a free meal or even tell them about Jesus for their hearts are empty just as you heart was empty /several months ago. This is the REAL meaning of Christmas!
-----------------------------------
LETTER FROM HEAVEN (WAKE UP CALL)

As you well know, we are getting closer to my birthday. Every year there is a celebration in my honor and I think that this year the celebration will be repeated..

During this time there are many people shopping for gifts, there are many radio announcements, TV commercials, and in every part of the world everyone is talking that my birthday is getting closer and closer.

It is really very nice to know, that at least once a year, some people think of me.

As you know, the celebration of my birthday began many years ago.

At first people seemed to understand and be thankful of all that I did for them, but in these times, no one seems to know the reason for the celebration.

Family and friends get together and have a lot of fun, but they don't know the meaning of the celebration.. I remember that last
year there was a great feast in my honor. The dinner table was full of delicious foods, pastries, fruits, assorted nuts and
chocolates. The decorations were exquisite and there were many, many beautifully wrapped gifts.

But, do you want to know something? I wasn't invited.

I was the guest of honor and they didn't remember to send me an invitation.

The party was for me, but when that great day came, I was left outside, they closed the door in my face .. and I wanted to be
with them and share their table.

In truth, that didn't surprise me because in the last few years all close their doors to me. Since I wasn't invited, I decided to
enter the party without making any noise. I went in and stood in a corner.

They were all drinking; there were some who were drunk and telling jokes and laughing at everything. They were having a grand time.

To top it all, this big fat man all dressed in red wearing a long white beard entered the room yelling Ho-Ho-Ho! He seemed drunk. He sat on the sofa and all the children ran to him, saying: "Santa Claus, Santa Claus" as if the party were in his honor!

At midnight all the people began to hug each other; I extended my arms waiting for someone to hug me and do you know no-one hugged me.

Suddenly they all began to share gifts. They opened them one by one with great expectation. When all had been opened, I looked to see if, maybe, there was one for me. What would you feel if on your birthday everybody shared gifts and you did not get one?

I then understood that I was unwanted at that party and quietly left.

Every year it gets worse. People only remember the gifts, the parties, to eat and drink, and nobody remembers me.

I would like this Christmas that you allow me to enter into your life.

I would like that you recognize the fact that almost two thousand years ago I came to this world to give my life for you, on the
cross, to save you.

Today, I only want that you believe this with all your heart.

I want to share something with you. As many didn't invite me to their party, I will have my own celebration, a grandiose party
that no one has ever imagined, a spectacular party. I'm still making the final arrangements. .

Today I am sending out many invitations and there is an invitation for you. I want to know if you wish to attend and I will make a reservation for you and write your name with golden letters in my great guest book.

Only those on the guest list will be invited to the party.

Those who don't answer the invite, will be left outside. Be prepared because when all is ready you will be part of my great
party.

See you soon.

I Love you!
Jesus Christ

Anonymous said...

I was a Calvarite for many years and left about eight years ago as I could not stand the arrogance of SP and his preaching. When I first joined, the wife was very humble, dressed simply but as the years went by, I saw the changes - designer clothes, thick jewelery etc. Anyway, I was told of this site and decided to visit the Ampang church last Sunday. To my surprise, SP was there, accompanied by Pastor TO. In spite of what is happening, SP seemed as arrogant as ever and told the congregation not to believe what has been written recently. Towards the end of the service, Pastor TO showed us, on screen, the progress of the gigantic building that CC is building. Was there any reason for them to show the progress then? I didn't stay to find out but I was a bit disappointed to see that only a couple wore white. Though I am no longer in your church, I feel as much pain with all of you and wish that this matter would be resolved soon. God bless all of you.

Anonymous said...

Blessed Christmas, everyone!I just came back from Christmas carolling, gave out 30-0ver tracts to unbelievers, & God is good!

And my goodness, it's already CHRISTMAS! And in a blink of the eye, it'll be the NEW YEAR!

May 2009 bring breakthroughs & transformation in the Body of Christ!

pshn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bamboo Conspiracy said...

BLESSED CHRISTMAS & NEW YEAR

A Blessed Christmas & New Year to my beloved brothers and sisters in Calvary Church. I still stand and am FULLY COMMITTED to TTG! I support their course and IDENTIFY with them as they fight for TTG. I am still in contact with them behind the curtain!.

My prayer is that 2009 WILL be the year of reconciliation and the healing of wounds between the leaders and the congregations. There must be a way back for ALL - in spite of differences and a full closure and unity in Christ. There is no victor in the present crisis - only victims! I know members are hurting and some have left or planning to leave the church. The present CRISIS must end! The only way I see this happening is for the congregation to know the TRUTH.

No matter what the church structure is in 2009, i.e. whether it is governed by
1. the same Senior Pastor and BOD,
2. temporary committee (if the SP and BOD resign) or
3. a new Senior Pastor and BOD,
the congregation must know the TRUTH. Otherwise, the present issue is like peat fire, still festering beneath the surface and likely to erupt again.

Members must know the REAL story so that there can be closure and reconciliation - a final end to this ‘dark night of the soul’ episode within Calvary Church. The only way I can see this happening is that there must be an independent report that clearly explains to the congregation what had transpired (with solid proof) and what the action plan is to prevent a repeat.

Call it want you want: Truth Commission, Internal Audit, etc, but the point is this 'commission' must be made up of people that the congregation respects and have high regards so that they are willing to accept the findings and recommendation. To strengthen the credibility of this 'commission' it would be advisable the members also invite one or two Christians of good standing from outside Calvary church to participate in the commission.

I also beg that the present crisis is resolved within the church or if neccesary by seeking advice from members of the larger Christian community. I fear taking the matter outside the Christian community can lead to unforeseen problems for all churches in general in the future. It can even lead to further retrictions if authorities outside the Christian community were to step in and impose new regulations. Legal or other non biblical means must only be sort after all else has failed and on the advice of respected Christian legal advisors. I also call on the various Christain Organisations to actively honour their spiritual and moral obligations. I regret that the Christian Organisations and leaders of other Churches have to only blame themselves if the authorities were one day to step in and impose new regulations (which may not be to the benefit of the Christian community) because they have observed that the so called guardians of the Christian faith have faith in their duties. This has already happened in the USA and in Singapore!

Furthermore, it would be advisable that once the present crisis has been resolved, the Calvary Blog is restructured to prevent a few RED HERRINGS taking control of it. I totally agree with Dr. Lum when he said he will only respond to those who are willing to identify themselves. The term red herring comes from the time when criminals would use fish to lead sniffer dogs off the trail. A red herring is an argument or reply that does not address the original issue or indent of the blog. It is a deliberate attempt to change the subject or divert the argument. Such red herrings are a waste of our time and energy.

I fear, if the blog is not controlled, the future leadership of Calvary church will have a tough time as unidentified bloggers would use the blog to throw red herrings and discredit them - even when they are doing a good job! It will be an emotional drain on the leadership. Hence, NO LEADER WITHIN THE CHURCH is safe as all kinds of innuendoes will flood the blog and it would be difficult for the readers to know what is truth! They will end up chasing red herrings! The original intent of the blog is defeated.


Blessed Christmas and New Year.
Vijay
I am, henceforth, only contactable via e-mail: vijay.newdawn@gmail.com

Malaysian Bagpiper said...

I totally agree with bamboo conspiracy. The administrator of this blog should have some form of control, at least for those who wants to post comments should register themselves to prevent "red-herring" problems. If we fight for transparency, let's see this happening on this blog first.

I am not supporting any sides now, but am just someone who wants to seek the truth.

pshn said...

CC - FOUNTAINTAIL CHURCH

One of the items in the Campaign for a Special Audit reads as follows:
9. That the salaries (stipend) of Senior Pastor's children and their spouses are not made known to the Board. Their annual appraisals are done by Senior Pastor and he decides with the deacon for human resource on their salary increments, unknown to the other deacons.

Whenever a conflict of interest occurs in the secular world the matter is dealt with the utmost of seriousness. There was an occasion when one of my children was studying in a course in the University of Malaya that I was involved with. It was required of me to openly declare publically my child’s name to the Department, the Faculty and the Senate. I was also not allowed to mark any of her papers in any of the examinations for that year. However, to ensure that there would be absolutely no questions, I took it upon myself to opt for a sabbatical.

At the end of the year she passed with distinction. No one queried the result.

What a tremendous contrast this is from the way things are handled in CC. PG is permitted by the BOD to evaluate the work performance of his own children and their spouses and decides on their salary increment with ONLY one Deacon. The quantum of their salaries are also kept hidden from the rest of the BOD and all the 10,000 members that PG claims CC has.

THERE WAS A BLATANT CONFLICT OF INTEREST IN WHAT PG DID!
It was xonerated by the silence of CC leadership -
Elders, BOD, PG2, PO, SK, TO, DS, RY
It is simply laughable! This is rubbished morality !

Luk 8:17, says, “Whatever is hidden away will be brought out into the open, and whatever is covered up will be found and brought to light.

In the secular, we choose openness to promote trust.
In CC, leaders hide and promote suspicion.
In the secular we would have felt ashamed.
In CC, there is JUST shamelessness.
The Law of the land says, “Ignorance is no plea!”
In CC, they ask, “What is conflict of interest?”

Integrity??.....in CC??
The secular is more honest lah !!
Prince??
More like Ali Baba !!
Fountainhead church???
Naaaw !
Fountaintail ..is more apprpriate!

Mat 5:13 "You are salt for the earth. But if salt loses its taste, how will it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything .......

Ps RY! Why are you, of all people, still in CC ?

Anonymous said...

1. In Calvary church, there are more form over substance.
2. Look at Calvaryland - huge structure but few people
3. Look at CCC - huge structure but few involved
4. Look at the name, "fountainhead" - no flowing water but blockage all over
5. Look at Prince's preaching - lots of showmanship but no living by example. In his Christmas message, he talked of forgiveness, fellowship and generosity, for which he has none of these.

Anonymous said...

I must agree with "form over substance". CC leadership a lot of show but no good results.

I was puzzled at the Christmas message. What makes him think that CC members got no joy? Maybe he himself got no joy so he has to remind himself that he is forgiven by God.

I know I am forgiven by God 30 years ago when I first accepted Christ into my life. We have plenty of fellowship with our bros & sis in life groups and church.

But this one about God is generously so He gave us His Son - I must take my hats off for SP - 1st time I hear GENEROUS being associated with Love, Compassion, Mercy and Grace of God in a Christmas sermon. I must be money minded now a days. To me generous is about money.

Anonymous said...

SP kept using the word "generous" in his Christmas message because the tap is now trickling instead of flowing or gushing.

Anonymous said...

Dear Calvarites

As believers, we can give to God through a person or persons or church or Christian organisations for God's work.

Since Calvary Church is not practising truth, transparency and governance, stop giving to CC for the time being until change of leadership and TTG fully restored.

In the meantime, give to all other God's work where there are urgent needs and where good governance is established.

Anonymous said...

Give where God leads you and where the needs are. It can be to Calvary Church or some other areas outside the church ... God is at work within and without.

A Happy and Meaningful New Year to All!

Anonymous said...

There is still plenty of pretence and showmanship in CC. The preaching and praying is shallow and merely following a rountine, a kind of formality but there is no compassion or real concern. But the show must go on!

The signs are already there ...the anointing is gone! Just a form but not the real substance.

There is no genuine love and compassion for members and worshippers.

Sad state of affairs. We pray that God will intervene soon to restore truth and righteousness in Calvary Church again.

Anonymous said...

To Great Show,

You hit the bull eye. I remember at the beginning of the year SP touched on fruitlessness of ministry and wagged the plant to showman his point. In another sermon where he touched on one lost sheep, he ran from one end of the pulpit to another to showman his point. True, it was a great show one after another.

Please stop this hypocrisy, showmanship and sly act. Please stop fooling with God's people. God gives His people discernment.

There was just no favorable response to SP's preaching. Each time, he had to beg no less than three time in order to get a slightly louder amen.

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