Calvary Today: CIM RETURNS CHURCH MONEY

Thursday, December 4, 2008

CIM RETURNS CHURCH MONEY

In a “surprising” turn of events, Calvary International Ministries, the personal ministry of Pastor Prince Guneratnam, announced last Saturday that it is returning all the balance money in its bank account amounting to RM1.05 million back to the Missions Dept of Calvary Church. The amount was the balance remaining from the RM1.3 million that was transferred from the Missions Dept to CIM between 2002 and 2007 without the knowledge or approval of the church members. This “change of heart” is a complete turnaround of the adamant attitude that we saw in Pastor Prince during the recent EGM.

The members were informed for the first time during the recent EGM in August 2008 that the Board of Deacons had previously ratified and endorsed the monetary gift to CIM. Members were riled by the total lack of transparency and proper governance in the whole saga which had led to a split in the church. Our God is a faithful God and once again, He has answered our prayers. He has heard the cries of all those who have stood up for truth and transparency.

The deacons have also at last Saturday’s closed door meetings for church leaders, announced the following:-

1. CARED, which is a subsidiary of CIM has been transferred to our Church as an extended ministry. All the balance money in CARED’s bank account amounting to about RM400,000 has been transferred to a new CARED bank account under the Church. This money is the balance remaining from the RM576,961 that was transferred from the Missions Dept to CIM/CARED without members’ approval or knowledge in 2006 and 2007.

2. A Constitutional Review committee comprising of Bro Philip Tan, Sis Bernadette, Sis Helen Gan, Bro Dennis Xavier, and Bro Ong Keng Hock has been formed to undertake the review of the sections of our Church Constitution relating to financial provisions and nomination process for nomination committee, deacons and auditors. This committee does not have any representation from the TTG Group. The limited scope of the review has conveniently left out the main concern of all the Church members which relates to the office and authority of the Senior Pastor. This exclusion of one of the real issues confronting the church has already gotten a stamp of failure on the whole exercise from the start. It is certainly not what the members want.

3. The formation of the Financial Governance Committee is also another joke. The committee comprises Deacon Edward Rajasingam, Deacon Han, Bro Lee Tuck Heng (ex-church auditor), Bro Tam Kok Meng (present church auditor), Bro Au Weng Sang and Bro Ding Lai Hong. With the inclusion of 2 deacons and the previous church auditor, all of whom had been ignorant or overlooked the many accounting issues as well as the unauthorized transfer of funds from missions Dept to CIM, we wonder how effective this committee can be?

Both Senior Pastor and Sis Petrina shared at Saturday’s meeting. Here are some NOTE WORTHY STATEMENTS made by them during the meeting.

He said:

#1.… the church celebrated my 30 years celebration and in that celebration, we launched CIM and that is how CIM came to be … The church gave a gift of RM30,000-00 and everybody was glad and happy. …

#2.…Before that was known as Sr Pastor’s Overseas Travel and 30 years in celebration then gave it a name called CIM – it was a personal ministry. Personal in a sense it wasn’t Pas. Steven doing it, it wasn’t Pas. Peter doing it. It was me that was doing it so that’s where it was said that it was to be a personal ministry of Pas. Prince Guneratnam.

#3.…And also when it (CIM) was formed, it was also expressed that it will come a time…when the church gets big enough, …The Lord wants to move me into full-time to evangelistic … Then I will move into evangelistic … I will be changing my job, changing my role, changing my position, no more pastoring, now as an evangelist. You don’t call that retirement. You don’t retire. Just change of job. It’s changing your responsibility so CIM gave my overseas missionary ministry a structure, a structure to what I was doing.

#4.… CIM will release to Calvary Church all existing funds in CIM books, at this stage, a total sum of RM1,055,550-68, which means CIM now has a zero balance. So we’re going to return all that sum of money.

#5.… Money has never been our issue.

She said:

#6.… As Sr Pastor has said, “to give structure to a ministry that has been well accepted internationally and after 30 years. …. giving it a structure will help in the funding from people like Dr Cho and Pastors and many friends, from Japan …and people gave at the launch. This was in September 2002.

#7.… In 2003, we bought land for the CCC, … CCC then became our top priority. We must put CIM aside and not talk about CIM and people supporting this ministry, because we want everyone, including our friends, our contacts, to support CCC and we want to raise funds for CIM will be after CCC has been built…our desire was to channel all funds for CCC… and as some of you know, our good friend Dr. Cho gave two million and it could come to CIM…Pas. Robert and church also gave two million and some others…

#8.…So you say, “How did Missions get involved in giving to the seed fund?” Missions has always supported SP overseas ministry and God in the meantime, blessed our Missions and Faith Promise abundantly and since the Church has EXCESS fund, more money. After meeting all the commitment, there was still MORE money left from (for?) missions and since CIM is a missionary endeavor to missionary in nature, evangelistic crusade, a certain amount was appointed to CIM seed fund. Missions money can only be used for Missions.

#9.… Missions money has never been brought back to the church to be said whether it can be appointed or not. …So certain amount of money was given to CIM approved by the Missions Board as well as the Deacons. It was not something that we transfer. It was never like this. So that’s why Sr Pastor and I were very comfortable to receive this amount of money given to CIM because it was for ministry. …It was for crusades and fall in line with the criteria of money given to missions. ... And since we give hundreds to thousands….you heard, four million and we don’t come back to church for approval to give money for …Dr. Guynes ministry or for Peter Wagner who built the Prayer Tower….the Indian Pastor, David Mohan….

#10.… it never dawn on us and at the same time, you must know, Sr Pastor and I, all we know is ministry. We have not come from the secular world. I know nothing about CBT and I know nothing about this transfer of funds. Our thinking has always been spiritual. … so we accept it very gratefully and happily, as we put CCC first and not put the ministry that was personal, …and God in turn gave back to CIM …

#11.… When this perception was created, this misinterpretation, we immediately thought of giving back the money.

#12.... the Board Of Deacons never thought about having to come back to the church for approval, whether the amount can be given to the SP’s ministry/CIM. Maybe we took for granted that everybody would be so happy that we can support the SP’s ministry so and since we never have to come back to the church at large to say whether this money can be given or not. It was already designated for missions, so you know, that was it.

#13.…First of all, we needed to clear the allegations that it was CBT and pastor has said how the Board was brought in and it, that has been cleared. Now after the EGM, now we will return the money and it has been given back … because of certain allegations, it has become ugly and since God is always our source and if it will bring about peace and settlement, we are very happy.

#14.…Why call it Calvary International Ministry and since this is a personal ministry, why don’t call it Prince Guneratnam Ministry?... For all of you who know pastor, even a little, you know that Sr Pastor is a very reserved, shy person. He doesn’t talk about himself, neither does he talk about our family…. By nature he is always reserve…and so giving it Prince Guneratnam Ministry will bring a lot of attention to himself and he doesn’t want that. So that is the reason.

#15… Another reason why we call it Calvary International Ministry - our love and our recognition of Calvary Church. We are so much a part of Calvary Church. We have given the best of our years…35 years…Calvary Church will always be apart of us even when we go to heaven, I believe, when we die lah ah and we will, I hope, be apart of some of you. It was recognition affection that we call it Calvary International Ministry.

#16.… It was never meant to deceive people to give money to us using Calvary’s name. By the way, people give money to individuals they can trust. They don’t give to church name and say ……

#17.… Every sen has been accounted for by the Certified independent audit, accountant. All money has been returned. There is zero balance. The matter is considered closed, I hope.

Well, now that all the balance money in CIM has been transferred back to the Church Missions Dept (whether voluntarily or involuntarily, we leave it to you to decide), we sincerely hope that Pastor Prince and his dear wife will do the next right thing and that is, accept full responsibility for the crisis that the church is in and change job to do what has been in their hearts all these years and become evangelists.

God Bless.

422 comments:

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Anonymous said...: If they have not come from the secular world, then why did they have properties in Bangsar (SP), TTDI (Pam) and Bangsar (JG)?

If you roughly add up the values of all these houses, it can come up to quite a few millions.

I understand that SP told the BOD that he has bank accounts in Singapore and US. Why? Why would a local pastor have overseas accounts?

Returning the money to the church is not good enough!; December 4, 2008 at 12:48 AM
The Trampled Rose said...: When I heard the news on Saturday evening itself, that SP and SAP had decided to return the money in CIM, that has been in dispute, I was certainly relieved and rejoiced at the right decision and action that they have taken.
Yet, at the same time, I could not help feeling the tinge of regret that it took them almost three and half months, since the August 15 EGM to reach this decision because much "ugly" water has flowed under the bridge and nothing can erase the memory of the ugliness nor restore the loss of their own integrity and reputation as servants of God.
What makes me also sad is that when SP and BOD wanted to prove that CIM is "clean" of possible CBT,financial mismanagement, etc, an EGM was called and an announcement made of the findings to both the voting and associate members and even some observers from the congregation, AG Council, etc.
Yet,when the money is now to be returned, only the leaders of the church are called and the announcement made to them, not to the entire church.
Why is there no calling of a meeting of all the CC voting, associate members and observers or even a public announcement of the return of the money? Are the leaders the only ones who should be informed and not the rest of the members?
You know, CC members should not be reading this from Calvary Today's blog but as members, have the right to be getting first hand news from the BOD and SP. To hear them speak directly to all of us, after all, is it not all of us who have given to the Lord and that money is part of that giving? Why not be overt about it as BOD and SP were in the clearing of CIM's name?
Furthermore, if I am not mistaken, one the items in the moving forward item list read by Deacon Philip Tan then, was the improvement of communications to the members. Is this the way, SP and BOD are going to communicate with the members - giving news indirectly via the leaders. Why the roundabout way to tell us news?
Secondhand news for something as important and so much disputed,as the return of 1.1mil to the church coffers should be properly announced to the members.
Now, back to the August 15 EGM, the other matter that was mentioned by Deacon Philip Tan, was that the CC Constitution would be reviewed and brought in line with the AG Churches Constitution.
Now, it is a fact, that there are quite a few objectional clauses present in the current CC Constitution, so for members like me, Deacon Philip's announcement was like a breath of fresh air, bringing hope to the dreary mess'
So, last Saturday, I was sorely disappointing to note that the scope of the Constitution Review committee is only confined to nomination of deacons and financial provisions.
My reason is that many of us are already tired of the SAGA that is tearing CC apart and we are awaiting the sunshine of a new era to burst forth behind the dark clouds of gloom.
Unfortunately, this genesis is only possible, with the revamp of the Constitution, so that not only are the sheep protected from any bullying pastor and his team but also the pastor and his team are protected from possible hampering from the congregation. A win-win Christian situation.
It is also sad that as we are talking about a Church Constitution - one built on biblical principles matched with parliamentary law - one would think it makes perfect sense to have on board the review committee, a theologian, experienced in matters of Church and Law? Yet, I fail to see anyone on the review committee trained in such a discipline. For that matter, a member of the AG Council represented to ensure balance for both pastors and congregation.
I don't mean to offend anyone with my comments, but I believe that if one is to make a positive move for betterment, we should think about getting it right the first time around, rather than do something and then have people come back and tell you that you missed the basic fundamentals of the entire matter.
In addition, looking at the review boards set up, a qustion pops up - who chairs these 2 committees.
Usually, the first name is the one listed is the chairman. Look carefully and you will see that the first name of each list is a member of the existing BOD.
Ironically, I don't want to but I have to agree with CT - that rationally, this could already smell of failure.
Why? Are not the first two names of each committee members of the existing BOD - where their personal integrity as leaders are currently being questioned? Can people who have had a part in helping create the existing mess that we are now facingt, be really, really objective and lead a positive change?
You know, being congruent with oneself, is to admit and accept the fact that you have made mistakes, and are we not to confess that as Christians. Yet, to this time, we are yet to hear that from our current BOD members.
So, what we must all decide is this. Can the same people be trusted to consider the best interests of the members when previously, they have not shown themselves to have done so - as seen by the many criticisms heaped upon them by so many members over these 9 months.
Self-preservation can prove to be a strong determinant against the goals of the moving forward, you know. But then, these are just my questions and concerns out loud.
Finally, to all the BOD and members of the review committee, please excuse me but what I have said is just a voicing my concerns and thoughts, as I see it. I have no bone to pick with any of you.

God bless
Diana; December 4, 2008 at 3:14 AM
Anonymous said...: The Kiddies would like to dedicate this song to our CC comittees

Three blind mice,
Three blind mice
See how they run,
See how they run!

They all ran after
The farmer's wife
She cut off their tails
With a carving knife
Did you ever see
Such a sight in your life
As three blind mice?; December 4, 2008 at 6:24 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes why must a pastor have accounts in Singapore and US?

I also heard PG also has account in Swiss Bank. Why?

Is there some more money in the overseas account? Sister P said that people give money to people they trust and not church, right?

I smell something fishy!!!!!; December 4, 2008 at 8:27 AM
Anonymous said...: It seems the blog has a problem
to access. Was it an attempt to
block it.

You may be wondering why trampled rose appeared 2 times.

It was due to this problem so it was updated twice.

Happened to me before.

Maybe CT would like to find out from Google if there is a technical glitch or there is some outside intervention to blockade this.

Please check. Thank you.; December 4, 2008 at 8:46 AM
Anonymous said...: PG if you want to be evangelist, plse go ahead and resign as SP of CC.
You should do so immediately because you do not have a pastor's heart anymore. As a pastor, you do not care what happens to your members. All you are interested in is your love for people to praise you, your worldly titles, flying business class, rubbing shoulders with big time pastors in America, nice cars, big house in exclusive area, a big convention centre, etc etc.
When was the last time you visited a church member who is sick in the hospital?
When was the last time you visited the loved ones of a church member who has passed away?
Do you care if your members are facing financial crisis because of the world economic downturn?
Do you care if your ex-staff has a job after he/she leaves or is retrenched from CC? Do you care?
PG over these many years, you have been known to be a "use and discard boss and pastor". I have been in the church for a long time to see this thing happening over and over again.
You are also very good at telling HALF TRUTHS and LYING. You have lied so many times to us and also to the congregation. I personally have encountered one of your lie.
You started well but you are not ending well just like king Saul in the Bible. He was anointed by God and he lost the anointing. It is also happening to you PG.
It is very sad but it is happening. God will sure forgive you if you repent. I believe the members of CC will also forgive you. Even though they forgive you, you will have to leave also. Obviously, we will want a new pastor.
PG just resign before we kick you out.; December 4, 2008 at 8:52 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes, The Trampled Rose got a point. Why only inform the so called church leaders and selected few. Why not announce in the church for all the members to hear?

What has the deacons including Philip Tan got to say now when they say the TTG group was malicious in their allegation? Stand up and apologize! Make an official annoucement to the church now and say whether the TTG group was malicious or not.

Anyway, the longer the saga goes on, the more dirty things will surface. This is just the tip of the iceberg.

If one cannot wait, then do the necessary.; December 4, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Anonymous said...: K H Tan commented:

NECF notice to CIM, Dr. Lum's stepping down from the Board of governing deacons, proposal by CIM to transfer money back to Calvary Church and the recent formation of a Finance Committee and a Constitutional Review Committee.

Wow, what tremendously rich blessings! Praise the Lord for opening many eyes and touching the hearts as we read more and more revelations.

Now thank you all inside the Teh Tarik Group for your discoveries, commitment, dedication, perserverance and patience. The acronym T T G is more and more apt - continue the good work and making a stand for truth, transparency and Good Governance (more appropriately God's Governance)

To the associate pastors and board of deacons based on the belief that some do read the feedbacks comments and suggestions posted, it is now the time for forgiveness and healing. Consider the events unfolding in a positive perspective, the TTG's contributions as surrogate "deacons" are truthfully speaking very ordinary church administration issues which an independent BOD
ought to have acted upon as a matter of routine in its supervision responsibility.

Please do not make the same mistake of the past. There are many members with good experience, skills and talents inside CC. Do not consider the TTG's action as unfriendly.

Please submit a draft constitution (with the contributions and input from TTG as well) which can withstand the test of time and the present congregation and future generation can rejoice and be proud of the love care and labour put into it by the drafters. Too much power vested and concentrated on one man (regardless of the best person in charge) is not for the glory of God and not healthy for the Church growth. There must be adequate provisions for check and balance of power in the day-to-day management and administration of the affairs of the Church.
The nomination and election procedures are flawed. This is just one example. Therefore, the Finance and Constitutional Review Committees are now given the mandate to avoid future exclamations of oops...In fact, the Finance Committee's first duty is to install authorisation and signing procedures to improve and strengthen whatever known areas of weakness.

Please do the right thing. As a last resort, Calvarites have to use the blog as they continue to face this wall of silence and lack of communication with fellow CC members and worshippers.; December 4, 2008 at 9:43 AM
Anonymous said...: Hahaha! Sure good laugh! "Pastor (Guneratnam) is a very shy person, very reserved," Petrina says...! My foot! Tan Sri Datuk Reverend Dr. Guneratnam velly shy, meh? 3 pages of full-colour spread in Calvary News, is not velly shy-lah! Stop all lies, please! I feel like puking...!

We demand a public apology from PG, PG2, BOD, APS...no more lies, please! Just admit you were wrong, & stop covering up your sins....Aisay, aisay, no mood to laugh now!:(; December 4, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Anonymous said...: We urge Pastors and BOD be sincere and truthful to fufill the proposals you have put forth in "Moving Forward". Don't make the suggestions that are just an eyewash and thinking members and worshippers can be bluffed.

Even from the outset if you really want to move forward then be humble and sincerely seek out and consult with TTG representatives. In fact this is the best occassion to initiate healing and reconciliation.

Why go deeper into making further mistakes again and just do some superficial work and appointing deacons who are from existing BOD and whose integrity we are already doubtful and others sympathetic to present leadership? Where is the moving forward? It is just to moving back to square one again.

We pray that SP, SAP, APs and BOD will wake up from this nightmare and repent, do what the Word requires of them and initiate honest and truthful work to review the Constitution to cut off the abuse of positions, instill checks and balances and allow transperancy and sound management and administration of the affairs of the church.

As a start the proposed Finance Committee cannot have present Treasurer or auditors or ex auditor, it must be from experts who are free from such entanglements and with expertise in the field and with representation from TTG.

Didn't the forensic auditors say that there are serious shortcomings in the present system that needs to be addressed and what has BOD done so far? Talk only?

This is another opportunity for Pastors and BOD again to save face so please do not disappoint us again.

God Bless.; December 4, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Anonymous said...: I mean Pastors and BOD can "save face" but we as members need matters to be honestly and truthfully resolved as our Heavenly Father must be deeply saddened by this long drawn and unnecessary saga.

First thing first ... repent and do what it takes to get matters right in God's eyes.; December 4, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes, public apology from PG, PG2, BOD, & APs. Don't continue to lies. Aren't you guys were teaching us all this while. Live up to the talk. I really despise HYPOCRITES!

Shame on you Prince Guneratnam, Petrina!

Shame on you Philip Tan, you are least of a "christian" outside the church. A typical reflection on Calvary Church.; December 4, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Anonymous said...: Nevermind lah, we want to see and find out more things that have been hidden from us.

Then we know how to correct them and prevent them from re-occuring with our future Senior Pastors and Associate Pastors.; December 4, 2008 at 11:01 AM
Anonymous said...: Ngiaw Foon Foon, alias, Petrina, said, "...So that’s why Sr Pastor and I were very comfortable to receive this amount of money given to CIM because it was for ministry. …It was for crusades and fall in line with the criteria of money given to missions. ..."

What a blatant lie, & without a blink of the eyelid she lies from the pulpit, God's sacred desk...!

PG2, If you give money to me, i oso feel comfortable, lah!

And wat CRUSADES? All you two, plus your son of course, who tagged along travelling by business class as well to give video coverage of your self-promotion (well, so much for very shy and reserved senior pastor!) have been attending were posh conferences....to boost your self-image! WAT CRUSADES? Who are you trying to bluff (from the sacred desk)?

LULA BAIRD says, "Never Touch The God Nor The GLory"!; December 4, 2008 at 11:04 AM
Anonymous said...: Reading what Prince & Petrina Guneratnam said during last Saturday's meeting, I just keep thinking that these two are so full of crap! They are liars! They must think we are fools!

These two, their children and spouses, the 6 deacons and PO, instead of repenting still choose to walk in darkness. That the meeting was not open to ALL members and regular worshippers (like the EGM) shows that there is still no transparency. None of them should work/sit on any committee in God's house anymore! They must all step down for spiritual rehabilitation; they are all spiritually sick.

They must be totally devoid of dignity. With the congregation clamouring for their resignation, they still want to stay on. Shameless!

They are increasingly asking for the wrath of God.

TTG, shall we take a vote to make them step down or they go to jail?; December 4, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Anonymous said...: Hell is the destiny for sinners. Prince and Petrina Guneratnam. The Deacons of Calvary Church. This is the warning.

You need to confess, repent and turn away from sins!

Isn't this simple and easy?

In Jesus Name, Amen.; December 4, 2008 at 11:47 AM
Anonymous said...: Just received this article which I felt reflect how insecure PG is to commit all the misdeeds he had done over the years, where is PG's faith in God?

Why did he need to preserve his position by coming out with the flawed constitution in 1985 which also appointed him to be the puppet master of the BOD who are his puppets?

PG, it's not too late to repent & put your faith in God once again, He will give you the security. Mammon (especially tainted funds) won't.

PG, the article below is another of those "roadblocks to hell" which you preached about some years ago. For God's sake & yours, don't dash through this roadblock like you did to the countless ones over the last 10 years ........

Insecure Leadership
TGIF Today God Is First Volume 2, by Os Hillman
12-02-2008

"When Herod realized that he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious, and he gave orders to kill all the boys in Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under, in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi" (Matt 2:16-17).

Any leader who is not secure in God will be insecure in their leadership actions. King Herod was such a leader. He feared the loss of power and had to control every aspect of the people he was ruling. When Herod heard about Jesus' coming birth, his insecurity became out of control and led to making life-threatening decisions for those in Jerusalem and Bethlehem.

Such a leader has deep-seated control issues rooted in the fear of loss of power, money and prestige. This also led to lying to protect his kingdom. When the wise men told Herod about the coming Messiah, Herod told them he wanted to know when He was born in order to worship him. He had no such plans. He wanted to kill him.

Herod told the wise men to report back to him when the child was born. The wise men were divinely warned not to return to Jerusalem and report back to Herod. When Herod discovered this, he became furious and issued the edict to kill every child under two years old in Bethlehem and the surrounding districts.

Whenever a leader has deep-seated control issues rooted in fear, their actions surface repeatedly when placed under stress. Arguments, manipulation of others, and confrontation with subordinates usually follows.

However, a leader who has yielded his life and his work to God can relinquish outcomes to the Lord and let God change things that may go astray. A secure leader realizes God is the source of His power and leadership and he does not need to fear others who may demonstrate leadership qualities. Instead, they are able to affirm them for the sake of the organization.

Pray that God makes you a leader who is secure in your position given by God; December 4, 2008 at 11:55 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Sis. Diana,

I want to commend you for your comments. I agree with what you've said and hope the BOD would take heed and act on it.

I remember discussing with a few pastors when the saga first started. I have always been very upfront and I speak my mind. I told them that "when a wrong has been committed, admit it, apologize and move on. Do not be in a state of denial. If this saga continues, it's going to be very bad."

Sadly, this saga has gone awful and ugly. Many are hurt emotionally and spiritually. I admitted to some close friends and pastors that I'm one of them. At one point, I wanted to leave CC. In fact, I discussed with my wife and son. I told them we need to pray and ask God to intervene. And if I discern that He wants me to serve Him somewhere else, I would obey.

My family and I are still worshiping and serving in CC. I trust that He still wants us there and I believe He would use us in His own way to bring revival to CC. Anyway, that's my prayer, that if He still wants me serving and worshiping in CC, let me not be redundant but be a real and true instrument for change and revival in CC.

Truth is painful, but must that stop us from revealing the truth and standing for the truth?

God bless.; December 4, 2008 at 12:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Slap; slap; slap on their face, what a unspiritual lies, what on earth are these two persons talking about?

honestly, I am terribly angry, in the first place, how can christian behave like that? secondly, how on earth do they have the guts to twist their words and blame it on the members?
thirdly, why are these bunch of leaders ( church lay leaders so terribly blinds, allowing them to talk rubbish and listen to them for one hour, where is God? please tell me where is God?

I am not able to forgive their conducts and behavior.; December 4, 2008 at 12:48 PM
Anonymous said...: I am new in the Lord but not blind. Calvary Church in the current form is not attractive to Spiritual Growth seeking christian.
I have been warned and now all you are warned. Stay and rot OR leave but growth. My last day is Dec 31, 2008. Decide for yourself.; December 4, 2008 at 12:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Aiyah, PG & PG2,

Just admit it, lah....you have NO CHOICE but to return the money to CC because CIM has been de-registered by NECF! Stop trying to sound like martyrs!

And one more thing.....just go! You are no longer respected by most of us, so no point for you two AND your family to stay in CC! We cannot call you pastors oredi! The faster you resign & leave the church the better it'll be for everybody...you see, you are stumbling so many people....their blood is on your hands, you are accountable for their souls! Please pack your bags & go, PLEASE!; December 4, 2008 at 1:00 PM
Anonymous said...: It stinks.. this is the remark made by PG during the first sunday of the year 2008 message.. He said, if we are not producing fruits, it stinks, subsequently David Seah also preached and quoted, it stinks right up to the nostril! Bad leaders and bad pastor produce bad pastor and leaders..

Now, I really feel the STINK. PG n wife n all associate pastors and leaders and deacons in calvary church really stink.; December 4, 2008 at 1:07 PM
Anonymous said...: From what I learn from my housemanship, if there is a cancerous growth, I have to ensure that I killed the cells before
it spread and killed the whole
body

It applies here

Dr No; December 4, 2008 at 1:45 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Angry,

If you feel that God has spoken to you and you felt strongly that you should leave the church, then by all means go to another church. But do not tell other people what to do or what your own convictions are.

If God has not spoken to you, then stay and contribute to the new beginning of a revived Calvary Church.; December 4, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Medical Student,

What if the patient says that he or she is not SICK?; December 4, 2008 at 1:52 PM
Anonymous said...: TTG, the Lord has been with you. Praise the Lord! This song is especially dedicated you.

In Christ alone, I put my trust
and find my glory in the power of the Cross
In every victory, let it be said of me
my source of strength
my source of hope
in Christ alone; December 4, 2008 at 1:56 PM
Anonymous said...: Sorry, I don't mean to use Anonymous. The song is dedicated to TTG from Apple of His eye. My apology.; December 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Not Good Enough,

You don't make sense. What are you trying to say? Why can't i share my own convictions on the blog...everybody is doing this same thing, right? Even you. So don't sound so high and mighty!; December 4, 2008 at 2:04 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Angry,

Please dont be angry.

What I meant was not to 'force' one's own convictions to other to accept or follow.; December 4, 2008 at 2:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi Not Good Enough and Angry,

Cool it, brother(s)/sister(s). We just had lunch and food is not even digested, so don't be so angry with one another. Be angry but don't scold others. God bless.; December 4, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Angry & Not Good Enough,
Think there’s some misunderstanding btwn u two.

Not Good Enough, Angry is not asking the church members to leave…he is asking PG and the G family to leave.; December 4, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Anonymous said...: There were questions as to why there are two BOD members in the committee.

All the arrangements speak strongly of PG's hand in it. Until the constitution is changed he is still the chairman of every committee - right? So the committee will have to go back to get his okay in everything.

Then when it is presented to the members and the members disagree, again they would have to go back to the drawing board. The whole process will be repeated again (ding...dong..ding..dong) So PG would still be in control and in power - afterall the constitution is not changed yet ....so...PG is still chairman of every committee and the BOD who has absolute power!

CORRECT OR NOT?? So the saga goes on!!; December 4, 2008 at 2:31 PM
Anonymous said...: Thank you Peace and Ah Beng No.2! Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God!; December 4, 2008 at 2:43 PM
Anonymous said...: PG said,
"The Lord wants to move me into full-time to evangelistic … Then I will move into evangelistic

NFF said,
"For all of you who know pastor, even a little, you know that Sr Pastor is a very reserved, shy person. He doesn’t talk about himself, neither does he talk about our family…. By nature he is always reserve…"

My questions:
1. Evangelist is very reserved.
Sure or not?????

2. He doesn't talk about himself.
Calvary news does all the talking?????

3. By nature he is always reserve.
Then why all the wordly title
DR., DATUK, TAN SRI,????????

4. Is he SHY or SLY??????

Please do not contradict yourself as husband and wife

I am not blind neither am I gullible nor am I deceived.

Who am I??????; December 4, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Anonymous said...: NFF said,
"our good friend Dr. Cho gave two million and it could come to CIM…Pas. Robert and church also gave two million and SOME OTHERS…"

Who are the SOME OTHERS?????

Now I want to know if pastors from other countries has been giving to CCC and ended up in CIM and not accounted for.

Maybe we should write to churches in USA and ask if they have contributed to CCC.

For all you know there are more than 4 millions given to CCC.

Woe unto him that has taken the Lord's portion

BOD, do you have a record of the amount received??

Anyway also useless because PG will not gives you all the info.

Now I know why they go to the SWISS BANK.

BY the way NFF sounded as if money collected for CCC can be put into CIM.; December 4, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Anonymous said...: To Not Good Enough

A diagnostic and prognostic would have been done as a cancerous cell
wont just grow overnight; December 4, 2008 at 3:45 PM
Anonymous said...: NFF said,
"#10.… it never dawn on us and at the same time, you must know, Sr Pastor and I, all we know is ministry. We have not come from the secular world. I know nothing about CBT and I know nothing about this transfer of funds."

POINTers

1. NFF worked as a teacher before in the secular world.

2. Mission monies are for mission and not for personal ministry.

3. NFF knowing nothing about this transfer of funds. BOD also know nothing about the transfer of funds. Then who transfer the funds??? PG and PO?????

4. NFF does not know CBT?????
Does she knows what is taking monies without permission???

5. Eric Low is also CIM director and also a company secretary. No advice from him??????

6. Edward is an accountant. Can he not throw some light????

7. Lee Tuck Heng is our church auditor. Can he not guides you in this????

8. Transfer of funds has been done secretly??????

Do Not tell us anymore lies.

If you really love Calvary Church, then you should reconcile and GO

Calvary Church situation will only be solved when you pack and GO; December 4, 2008 at 3:47 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Angry,

A thousand apologies.

I was barking at the wrong tree.; December 4, 2008 at 4:37 PM
Anonymous said...: PG and NFF

You have declare your love for the church as below:

"our love and our recognition of Calvary Church. We are so much a part of Calvary Church."

Why are your sermons hitting out at the sheep?

Why did you ask your sheep to go to another church?

Why did you ask you sheep to jump into the lake?

Why did conduct a witch hunt on the leaders after AGM?

Do you love the church or the sheep?; December 4, 2008 at 5:02 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Not Good Enough,

Apologies accepted! It's alright. Everybody makes mistakes, especially when we are angry..! I've calmed down already, by the way.:); December 4, 2008 at 5:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Tainted Pulpit,

Its not the church or the sheep.
Its the sheep in the church that has alot of RM.; December 4, 2008 at 5:38 PM
Anonymous said...: SP is very shy and reserved...PG Int Ministry will bring attention to himself and he doesn't want that. In all my 30 plus years in CC, I have never seen SP shy or reserved or does not want attention.

1. I always wonder why he need "body guard" to escort him from the chair to the pulpit every time he speaks in public. Don't tell me someone wants to kidnap him in that short walk. Does he not know it really draws attention to himself, if he is really shy?

2. Every time I attend those special celebrations for him & wife, eg, the 30 yrs celebration that they talk about, remember how they walk down the red carpet like people getting married. My goose bumbs actually stood on ends in enbarassment for them. I just wonder, even at that time, how they can not feel shy with this much attention focused on them.

3. Remember the 30 yers celebration book that the church prepared and printed to highlight their life...and even this year's 40 church anniversary book also is about their life story. If this is not attention seeking then what??

Enough for now...; December 4, 2008 at 5:45 PM
Anonymous said...: PG, PG2 and BOD,

Time for you to graciously bow your heads and apologise to the whole church and leave. You have lost the respect of members and worshippers.

You have told enough lies and half truths and still trying to hide and pretend that you are martyrs and doing good by transferring money back when in the first place you have no right whatsoever to keep it there!

What if TTG did not find out about the missing moneys appearing in CIM? Then PG and PG2 will quietly keep it and merrily use it in due time? BOD and APs also will be unawares and merrily go about God's business.

Do you notice that our Pastors and BOD are perfect examples of modern Pharisees? What would Jesus say of them if He were here with us?

May they surrender to the Holy Spirit's prompting and sincerely and humbly step forward, bow out and own up rather than tell more lies to us.; December 4, 2008 at 5:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear JSK,

Its all about themselves.

Just look at the fruits and you will tell what sort of persons they are.; December 4, 2008 at 5:52 PM
Anonymous said...: I see Fruits of Pride, Arrogance, Greed, Coveteousness, Materialism, Self Love, Apathy, Selfishness, Abuse of Power & Positions, Manupilation, Lying Spirit etc.

So how fit are they to be our Pastors? Isn't it time we have a Change of leadership in Calvary Church?; December 4, 2008 at 6:03 PM
Anonymous said...: She said, "By the way, people give money to individuals they can trust. They don’t give to church name and say ……"

We must all agree with her on this. This sentence is gospel truth.

Sis. Petrina, you r rite in this sentence. We give to ppl we trust so that is why we r not giving anymore to you. We don't trust you, your beloved family, your faithful deacons and your loyal APs and staff.

We won't give to Calvary also becoz to you and husband, the church belongs to you so money put in the offering bag is up to you couple to decide where you like to put it. You urself say, Dr. Cho's 2 million could have been put to CIM but you two decided you love CCC more. At least one truthful sentence from you.; December 4, 2008 at 6:07 PM
pshn said...: From a Medical perspective says:

To solve any problem you must first know exactly what the problem is.
If can’t see with the right eye and you think is due to a cataract when it is due to short-sightedness, then you will operate to remove the cataract and still cannot see.

PetrinaG does’nt know what is truly wrong with PG..... she thinks he is shy!

No! PG is not shy. Far from it. A shy person is not arrogant, struts like a peacock on the church stage when preaching to gain attention, drives expensive cars to show he is one-up on others, chases after worldly tittles like Datuk and Tan Sri to show that he is that better than you, wants to build a huge and expensive building to be an icon just to show that he could do it his way (the Tower of Babel was also built for the wrong reason and God was annoyed and scattered the people as babbling fools), put his legs on the table when he talks to you, stubbornly refusing to leave CC when endless cries have been uttered for him to do so.

No! PG is not shy. He suffers from an severe lack of self-esteem that drives him compulsively to be higher than, better than, richer than, bigger than others just to prove himself to others.

Petrina G thinks PG is shy and always tries to praise him in public, peps him up like stroking like you would a cat, explaining how sincere he is, and how sacrificial his service for the Lord has been. Poor thing, he is really innocent and does not know what CBT is.

No! Petrina G, that is not the correct way to treat your mate. You have doing the wrong thing all these years. What he really needs is inner healing and/or psychiatric treatment.

Sad to say, with all the years that have gone by, Petrina G has become very much like PG, rude, arrogant, manipulative, petty, deceives, tells half-lies, tells full lies, has developed a taste for expensive clothes, drives expensive cars, flies on 1st Class Air tickets.

They have become quite a pair.

But the way. Do you know how much their monthly pay is without perks? RM 25,000.00 & RM 15,000.00. But I must think well of them and say they probably give most of it away for charity.; December 4, 2008 at 6:35 PM
Anonymous said...: WOW!!!

Thats RM40,000.00 per month and
RM480,000.00 per year per couple!!!

How many church members or couples earned that much? Probable less than 5!!! Or maybe none!

Not including all the perks, it would be earning a million a year.

Let IRB go after them!; December 4, 2008 at 6:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi PSHN,

Your comment that PG is "suffering from a severe lack of self esteem" explains why PG has felt insecure since 1985 (see Ah Beng's comment at 11.55am).

You said that what PG "really needs is inner healing and/or psychiatric treatment", are you saying that we have been having a cuckoo for a SP all these years?

Can someone out there please recommend a good & reliable psychiatrist for PG? Poor NFF, she has been stroking a cuckoo like a cat all these years so much so that now she is also like him - telling half truth & lies, wearing branded attire, etc., etc.; December 4, 2008 at 6:58 PM
Anonymous said...: RM25,000 & RM15,000??? They make more then the CEO where I work! And PO???? Anything left to pay the other pastors?????

What charities they give to?; December 4, 2008 at 6:58 PM
pshn said...: THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL

Dan 5:24 Then was the part of the hand sent from before him, and this writing was inscribed.
Dan 5:25 And this is the writing that was inscribed: MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Dan 5:26 This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and brought it to an end;
Dan 5:27 TEKEL; thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.; December 4, 2008 at 7:00 PM
Anonymous said...: PG & NFF,

Don't be so thick skin. In case you don't know, your initials PGNFF now stand for "Please Go Now Fast & Forever".; December 4, 2008 at 7:16 PM
Anonymous said...: I feel so disappointed yet again by PG's explanations, can't say I'm too suprised though. What I wonder is that when PG and wife said all those things, do they actually believe it? or do they know that they are lying to the church? PG's explanation on how before CIM was formed, it was known as Sr Pastor's overseas travel and then thereafter it was given a name called CIM really baffles me. When it was known as Sr Ps' overseas travel, it was still under the governance of the church but once CIM was formed, all of his funds are no longer accountable to the church..so how can he even compare btwn the 2? Not to mention the silly explanations abt how PG is so shy etc. I don't nd to elaborate on that since quite a few other comments have already been mentioned on the ridiculosity of it (not sure if that's even a word but that's how it feels like to me). As for the election of the 2 committees, let's not even go there...it is indeed a big joke.; December 4, 2008 at 8:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Mmmm. This is trouble.

I don't know what to think about the returned money. Obviously all this mess will be swept under the carpet, and the BoD will expect life to go on as normal. However, what exactly is the root problem here? We've pruned part of the symptoms; legally-speaking we may even have solved everything, but I think the problem still remains.

One possibility is that we can threaten legal action and thereby get PG and SAP to resign. However, once again that is only treating symptoms and not the problems.

I suspect the root problem may lie in the extravagant use of money by the Church and its members, fuelled by high expectations of a flamboyant lifestyle which is not experienced by many lower-income families. In other words, Rich Church Syndrome.

How do we solve this? We've successfully eliminated a symptom; what about the problem? Rich Church Syndrome is a rather difficult problem to solve, but it is even more difficult to prove!

-RCS-; December 4, 2008 at 8:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Here's another big lie by NFF:

"#12.... the Board Of Deacons never thought about having to come back to the church for approval, whether the amount can be given to the SP’s ministry/CIM. Maybe we took for granted that everybody would be so happy that we can support the SP’s ministry so and since we never have to come back to the church at large to say whether this money can be given or not. It was already designated for missions, so you know, that was it."

Imagine the BOD never thought about it....!! What's the BOD for, then? What DO they think about or discuss about in BOD meetings? What did we elect them for?

Such big sums of money being transferred to PG's personal ministry account EVERY YEAR seems to just ESCAPE their thoughts that approval must be secured from the members first! This must be 'the gospel according to NFF'!!

Furthermore, to add insult to injury, NFF continued to lie through her teeth that they "took for granted that everybody should be happy" with them taking the church money...? What the...?!!

Does she really think we believe what she says?; December 4, 2008 at 9:34 PM
Anonymous said...: PG is going into the gaol. Period.

There are no two ways about it.; December 4, 2008 at 10:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Petrina will be petrified if PG goes into the gaol but she is headed the same way.

Peace brothers and sisters.; December 4, 2008 at 10:19 PM
Anonymous said...: Imagine a senior pastor with bank accounts overseas! What mafia or pastor?

Sure one... going to gaol for sure.; December 4, 2008 at 10:25 PM
pshn said...: Rich Church Syndrome: I prefer to call it Charitable Church Syndrome. God prospers the faithful members of the church and they desire to give back to God. This is wholesome Christian living and I would like to encourage the members to continue to give to God.

BUT How did CC get into such a mess? I have listed some of the possible reasons.

1. Too much control by PG who arrogantly insists on doing things his ownway. If only he doe’nt act as if he knows accounts and just humbly listen to the advice of the accountants of the Church. The worse thing is after he makes a mistake he says he doe’snt know what CBT is.

2. If only PG does’nt rig the election of the BOD. Otherwise the BOD will comprise people who are qualified spiritual ly and professionally. It will be beneficial have professionals accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, property managers and corporate figures. And if ONLY PG does’nt have the extreme inferiority complex of thinking that people who think differently from him are against him. This is really his Archilles’ tendon.

3. Like I have said many times before, PG HAS NO PASTORAL GIFT. That is why people just can’t nor do they want to get along with him. He does’nt visit people in their homes or when they are in the hospital, he just can’t have a simple dialogue with you but only a monologue and that must be only from him to you, he is uncomfortable with you and you with him.

4. PG IS AN EVANGELISTIC PREACHER and that is where he should belongs. A teacher is a teacher, a preacher is a preacher, a prophet is a prophet, a healer is a healer. In the secular world an accountant should function as an accountant, a doctor as a doctor, an chemical engineer as a chemical engineer. Can a electrical engineer function as a civil engineer? That would be just ludricous!

SO IT IS VERY, VERY SIMPLE. The evangelist must go out on evangelistic tours and evangelise. Then he does not have to pastor anyone. We can then let a new person (Glory be to God!) who has a proper calling as a pastor take over Calvary .

5. Board of Deacons. Your standard of integrity is worse that the secular world. People do not trust you, you have proven to have failed the people who elected you, you appear not to know what you are doing, you do not seem to know that your role in the governance of the church is to safeguard the interest of not only PG BUT EQUALLY, THE INTEREST OF THE CONGREGATION.

In the secular world, if the performance level is as low as what you have achieved THEY WOULD HAVE ALL VOLUNTARY RESIGNED BY NOW. But you in contrast, despite many calls from the congregation to step down have unashamedly and doggedly stayed put.

I fear to say, the BOD have become just like their boss. Let’s hope if one goes the other will also.

6. TO ALL THE PASTORS: There are no words that I can find that can describe the pastors we have.; December 4, 2008 at 10:35 PM
Anonymous said...: Earning RM480,000/- a year between the two of them - no wonder the Guneratnams don't want to leave the church! Their whole family is on CC payroll.....EASY STREET! Don't have to work much, just come in for a while, sit around, play with grandchildren, go out to do marketing & fetch children to and from school, and at the end of every month another big, fat pay goes into their bank accounts...! Wow! THIS IS THE LIFE!

CC belongs to PG and PG2, this is their DYNASTY..and they will fight tooth and nail, tell lies, tell more lies, sack those who oppose them, etc. in order to keep it this way - the Guneratnams' kingdom on earth, CC, CIM, CARED, CCC, CC Extended Ministries,! Not bad for a shy and reserved man, PG!!; December 4, 2008 at 10:46 PM
Anonymous said...: NFF mentioned they used the CIM funds to do missions work and go for crusades, but based on their list of CIM expense so far, looks to me like they went more for seminars and conferences rather than for crusades. waste of good money and a misuse of missions funds. Going for seminars/conferences in USA via business class is NOT MISSIONS WORK.; December 4, 2008 at 10:54 PM
Anonymous said...: NFF statement:

#11.… When this perception was created, this misinterpretation, we immediately thought of giving back the money."

Wah such generous thoughts.
"WE IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT OF GIVING BACK THE MONEY"

If you have done it immediately,

1. No need for EGM on 15th Aug 08

2. No need to spend on the forensic accountant fees, RM25,000

3. No need for KK Wong to appear

4. No need to invite Dr.Guynes and gave him USD10,000

5. No need to involve AG superintentant for our EGM

6. No need to have leaders' meeting on Sat 29th Nov.08

7. No need to make the annoucement and said those malicious allegations.

If ONLY you have return it immediatly.

OoopS, my nose grew loooooooonger; December 4, 2008 at 11:20 PM
Anonymous said...: the question now is, what is the next step? wat shall we do?; December 4, 2008 at 11:26 PM
Anonymous said...: To Next step

Suggest CT write officially to KK Wong to tell about the return of the money DESPITE his reasoning that 'gifts to CIM cannot be retracted.'

Check with the forensic Accountant to elaborate on the controls needed (he mentioned at EGM but did not elaborate).

If possible CT can post their comments on this blog, hopefully will influence the new finance committee who will formulate check and balances.

abc; December 4, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Anonymous said...: BOD, do the rightful and honourable thing .... RESIGN NOW! You too, Mr n Mrs PG. In many countries, leaders and Prime Ministers resign when things go wrong. They take responsibility for the fiasco. You can count yourselves fortunate that you are not in Japan where honour is much esteemed and harakiri was the only way to "save face". How can you face the members of CC whom you have a duty to be answerable to? Where is your shame? Better still where is your honour? You cannot plead ignorance becos many wrongdoings and discrepancies have been pointed out to you. Yet you choose to be blind, deaf and dumb. You choose to fear man and forgot our Almighty God who demands obedience and holiness. You have chosen to be on the side of lawlessness. Congrats! Dont say nobody warned you! Some of you already look like you are carrying a huge burden on your shoulders .... it shows on your face! Guilty conscience perhaps?; December 4, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Sis. Petrina says, "giving it a structure will help in the funding from people like Dr Cho and Pastors and many friends, from Japan …and people gave at the launch........ All money has been returned. There is zero balance. The matter is considered closed, I hope."

She makes them sound so noble, to give every sen back to church. Why every sen given back? She says her friends like Dr Cho, pastors even Japan friends gave. That means not all the money is transfered from our Missions fund. Why give back all.

I not Datuk or Tan Sri also can figure out. CIM deregistered by NECF so now got no more legal umbrella to go under. Bank finds out and say, CIM cannot have bank account - no body's child mah - so illegal body. So give them chance to close the account volunteerily. So much money, give who?

SP own pocket - must declare income tax, must explain where money come from.

Back to CC best option - sounds good, look generous and they think CC members still fools will clap clap for them. (some still are, PO was so supportive and laughing out loud at their stupid statements in support and TO, say if he were one of those who gave to CIM, he would feel so sad. So he don't give Faith Promise lah)

Sorry side tracked. Coming back, so five church is best, WHY?

1st they look good, willing to sacrifice RM1 million.
2nd to shut the TTG's mouth, no more case ah "The matter is considered closed".
3rd They both still BOSS and ER still treasurer, loyal SK still Missions director and aiyo, LTH still checking the finance procedures. So any time they can amend vouchers, re produce payment slips this time properly signed by ER & LTH. Easily they can take back the money. They are very good at creative accounting. Remember someone said earlier, Dog food claim as security fees.

Yes return money to church is the NO CHOICE yet the BEST OPTION.; December 4, 2008 at 11:42 PM
Anonymous said...: As a TT Group member, I was initially impressed with the Purposes and Objectives of this Blog. However, over this past few months, after reading all the writings of this Blog, I felt shameful, frustrated and cheated by this Blog.

Our TT Group leaders are preaching one thing and do the opposite thing.

For example, one of the objectives of this blog - "To eliminate speculations, rumours and gossips and always for the Truth to be established on all matters regarding Calvary Church"

Did we achieve our objective? NO! Instead our TT leaders are encouraging us to fabricate speculations, rumours and gossips and making baseless allegations. I begin to sense that they have their own private political objectives.

BAD MOUTHING CALVARY CHURCH USING NON-TRANSPARENT FAKE NAMES have become the new habit of some TT Group members as evidenced from this Blog.

What is the point of studying the Bible?

I give up.; December 4, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Anonymous said...: LTH, I would reconsider and rethink very carefully if I were you. You have been inefficient over the years and did not do your job. Now you dare to be involved in finance committee again. We have been kind to you and you escaped unscathed. What if your employers knew of your "performance" during your years checking CC accounts? Integrity gone man. How to explain? Where is your professionalism? Gone down the drain, that's where.; December 4, 2008 at 11:56 PM
Anonymous said...: Thanks pshN for letting us know how much SP & SAP earns. So this month salary for SP is RM25,000 X 3 = RM75,000. For SAP is RM15,000 X 3 = RM45,000. So the church account less by RM120,000. for December alone.

Any one can find out how much his children earn?

Oh I hear a rumour that TO earns RM1_,___. True or not, anyone?; December 4, 2008 at 11:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Looks like some pastors already knew it.

That CC does not mean Calvary Church but rather CASH COW!!!!!; December 5, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous 11.55pm...am not a TTG member like what u are, but i'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Which part of the articles etc posted by the TTG are baseless allegations, pray tell???? all sounds real to me; December 5, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Anonymous said...: Hey BOD cant you see you are the scapegoat? They are blaming you for so many things. You will always be responsible lah. Just you wait and see.; December 5, 2008 at 12:05 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Anonymous 11.55pm,

Please do not claim to be a TT Group member because none of us will blog under Anonymous.

If you are truly one of us, you will know that for the past few weeks, we have gathered every Wednesday (including yesterday) to pray for our pursuit of TTG and Calvary Church. You would know all our plans and commitments.

So please don't pull this stunt here unless you are purposely inviting people here to "bash" you.

To all of you who are really concern for Calvary Church, please join us in prayer every Wednesday, to pray for God's leading and intervention.

However, next week we will be meeting on Tuesday to pray. When we say join us, I mean, join us in spirit and pray wherever you are.

God bless.; December 5, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Anonymous said...: Anonymous @11:55pm

1. I am not TT Group member like you claim yourself as. But I find truth among the postings. The rest I am unsure because I do not have the fact first hand. Please identify and refute the untruth if you know one. Don't just assume.
2. Please identify yourself. If you are one that has been accused, all the more you should stand up to refute. For what we blog here, we stand against God's standard. If we lie, we lie against God.
3. Better still, if you like we can meet face to face. For I have many unpleasant encounters with PG and family and some of the BOD. I have fact to substantiate. Am waiting for time to reveal. Like to take up the challenge?; December 5, 2008 at 12:10 AM
Anonymous said...: what, still no apology? NFF cover up for PG. Better be careful lor. Cover too many times nanti stifle and cannot breathe lor. By the way, why you spokeswoman for him when CIM is his personal ministry, not yours?; December 5, 2008 at 12:11 AM
Anonymous said...: Well said and fully agreed with 6 points given by pshN at 10.35p.m.

Writing is so clear on the wall! Why are PG, PG2 and BOD plus APs still dragging their feet and refusing to act as true gentlemen and ladies?

Even leaders in the secular world will own up to their mistakes and graciously retire but here in CC they are unbashful and hanging on there in pretence. Sadly the church standards are even lower than the worldy standards. Yet they are our so called spiritual leaders. What a shame! Where is accountability?

Time for Changing of Guard to take place in CC otherwise it will become a circus soon...already the audience is growing bigger and bigger. CC gaining international acclaim.; December 5, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Anonymous said...: Sis Karen & the rest of the TTG members, if anonymous 11.55pm is really one of you, think you guys better beware of him/her and smoke him out! there might be a mole within yr team...either that or he/she is just trying to be confuse us readers...; December 5, 2008 at 12:24 AM
Anonymous said...: Anon 11.55

Please don't fake to be a TTG supporter!; December 5, 2008 at 12:55 AM
Anonymous said...: Anon 11.55

Hah! unbelievable caught you and should I assist him/her to summon you?; December 5, 2008 at 12:59 AM
Anonymous said...: Don't understand why PG and mrsPG adore Yonggi Cho so much. This guy also got so much issues, similar to the ones in CC now. So dumb one they all. Want to follow, follow Jesus la. Check this out:
http://www.rickross.com/reference/yoidoyonggi/yoido12.html

http://falseteachersexposed.blogspot.com/2007/01/paul-david-yonggi-cho.html; December 5, 2008 at 3:20 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Anonymous at 11.55pm,

How did you become a TT Group member? Did you sign any appplication form or submit some documents for verification as happened in CIM's case? Enlighten us as we do not want to speculate!!

God bless.; December 5, 2008 at 7:54 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Same-same,

They say birds of the same feathers flock together. Maybe PG & Mrs PG have learned a thing or two from Yonggi Cho.; December 5, 2008 at 7:59 AM
Anonymous said...: No wonder all our pleas to AoG,

Cho Yonggi, etc have fallen on deaf

ears. Now we know our Disciple

has followed the Master. Strange

that I have that gut feeling too.

Looks like the beginning of our End

Times as prohesied in our sacred

book.

Better have our own bible reading,

devotion and to speak and listen

to our One And Only God , Lord of

Lords, Abba or Father in heaven,

Son of the Holy Spirit that is

Christ, Jesus.

This Christmas, celebrate at home

and worship Him alone.

Dont need to listen to a Fleshly

leader to tell us what to do.

He is more interested how much he

can collect on the offerings.

He sees only Ringgit & Sen in his

eyes. $ s $; December 5, 2008 at 9:23 AM
Anonymous said...: The Last Straw said:

Let's start from the very beginning as it's popularly sung in the theme song of "The sound of music". When your read you begin with ABC and when you sing you begin with doe ray mi.

Find out the sequence of events before one appears to be so sanctimonious - Who perpetrated all these shocking and awesome mis-behavior inside a house of faith and worship? Who persistently communicated denials and calling for prayers to lead others into believing those who seek truth transparency and good governance were a pack of misguided members with malicious intent to accuse the leadership of wrong-doings?. Who has remained silent and resisting and unwilling to immediately sit down to resolve problems after so many issues were raised during the past AGMs?

And who has continued to deny the initial few who seek for the truth a proper church forum for open discussions instead of now having to resort to finding out information and comments posted in the blog?.

I initially belong under the category of "ignorance is bliss" and merrily denied the allegations of wrongdoings of Church's leadership. Consider the pain hurt and feelings of betrayal of all those who found out later. What are the consequences after the awesome discovery of deceits and more deceits? Stay or walk away. Let's get the description right on suffering folks. The genuine victims are the hurting families and friends and the painful relationship asking God and searching for the peace to stay, walk to another Church or quit.

I am ashamed angry and feel misled, cheated and hurt while the leadership merrily continue to disregard many of the questions, continue with business as usual and not doing the right thing and taking proper action.

Are they knaves or fools? Many of them will know the answer to this final question.

Thank you TTG for all the revelations and doing the right things while the BOD and pastoral staff behave like the fabled Three Wise Monkeys.; December 5, 2008 at 9:32 AM
Anonymous said...: To: Same-same & Birds of the same feathers

Yes it is the same "hallmark life style"! Want to be revered and given CEO treatment everywhere they go. Behave like the rich and famous.. chauferred driven to functions, ushered in like heads of state. No open door policy but you must make appointments to see CEO. You can't just drop in they are busy and important people.

It is like using the church as their personal business where is the heart of a shepherd?

So also the APS are just holding a job.... once the office hours are over they are gone and you lay leaders take the duties. If you have any difficulties in ministry work sorry you take care yourself. I have faced the situation myself asking for assistance from APs but they say you can handle yourself.

Sadly that is the culture. Where is love and caring for the sheep? Just a whole lot of window dressing, looks very impressive from outside but empty inside. Mega projects and great publicity stunts! You can act for awhile but for long term the real condition will show.

So do we see joy and peace in faces of PG, PG2, APs and BOD anymore? No smiles if they show forth, most likely they are fixed and false ones!; December 5, 2008 at 9:46 AM
Anonymous said...: How naive of Mrs PG to say, and I quote her,

"So certain amount of money was given to CIM approved by the Missions Board as well as the Deacons. It was not something that we transfer. It was never like this. So that’s why Sr Pastor and I were very comfortable to receive this amount of money given to CIM because it was for ministry."

Mrs PG, you are so naive to think that CC members are so gullible to believe you that Missions Committee (by the way, when was Missions Committee upgraded to a Board).

Mrs PG, do you expect us to believe you that the Missions Committee on its own accord proposed RM200,000 per annum and then the BOD endorsed it, without any INSTRUCTION FROM HIGHER UP, NOT GOD (lest you misunderstand me) BUT YOUR DEAR HUSBAND.

Mrs PG, you mean to say poor Pas. PO would submit the proposal to the Missions Committee without the GREENLIGHT from your man himself.

I have been kept informed that it has been a practice for many years already that the list of "recipients" or "beneficiaries" of Faith Promise funds is prepared by PO in consultation with PG, and in most cases, PG tells PO who to give money to, in which case I strongly believe that PG must have told PO to allocate RM100,000 every 6 months to CIM (for the less informed ones, Faith Promise is done every 6 months).

The "approved list" of "recipients" or "beneficiaries" of Faith Promise funds is then tabled to the Missions Committee and is "rubber-stamped". Nobody objects because there's the accepted culture in CC and even if there are objections, the majority will prevail and the list of "recipients" or "beneficiaries" of Faith Promise funds is DULY APPROVED.

The list goes to BOD and is also "rubber-stamped". I understand some BOD members have vehemently objected to the BOD being a rubber-stamp so very often when PG is not around, but alas, when PG makes his apperance, almost every deacon is silent and the passage of the list "recipients" or "beneficiaries" of Faith Promise funds is complete as there's no objection.

EVERYBODY IS HAPPY - Missions Committee, BOD, everybody and anybody, at least that's what Mrs PG chooses to believe and wants us to believe together with her. Hers is a farly-tale world, where there's no CBT, no misappropriation, etc, etc, and everybody lives happily ever after.

The point I want to make is this: PO is not the one who INITIATED the list of "recipients" or "beneficiaries" of Faith Promise funds. PG IS THE INITIATOR. That's how it's done. So for Mrs PG to say "a certain amount of money was given to CIM approved by the Missions Board as well as the Deacons" is only HALF TRUTH - the 2nd half I mean. The first half of the TRUTH is WHAT TAKES PLACE BETWEEN PG & PO BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

Only naive people, the PG supporters, continue to believe Mrs PG, that all is well, so it seems.; December 5, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Anonymous said...: I 'bumped into' a pastor from another church (not A/G) & in the course of the conversation, the subject of CC & Prince Guneratnam came up. When asked his opinions on what is happening at Calvary Church, he said, "Oh, I was told that those people are trying to smear his name," and, "Calvary Church has 10,000 members, mah!"
Of course I was able to give him the right facts that ....

1. All the allegations against PG are true and can be substantiated.

2. There is proof of CBT and gross misconduct on the part of PG & PG2.

3. Those who oppose him are godly men & women who were, once upon a time, strong and able lay leaders of the church. God have raised them up, for a time such as this, to expose the secret sins of this couple.

4. CC only has 3,000 attendees, membership only around 1,200. No way can there be 10,000 members unless PG sincludes the membership of all the Outreach works past & present, the Missions work in Nairobi & Sudan, still cannot get 10,000, lah! It's a pure fabrication to boost his image, to make himself look like the senior pastor of a mega-church in a muslim country!

Man, was he shocked by the revelation!; December 5, 2008 at 10:27 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Truth Spreader,

Just a slight correction.

Those who oppose him are godly men & women who were, UNTIL RECENTLY (NOT once upon a time), strong and able lay leaders of the church.

Many of us are still young and energetic in our Lord, even the oldies who are just like Caleb.; December 5, 2008 at 10:37 AM
Anonymous said...: I almost choked on my morning cuppa when I read this...

"#5.… Money has never been our issue." Prince Guneratnam Quote UNquote!

If money has never been your issue, PG & PG2, then why the Swiss Bank accounts, Singapore & USA accounts, RM10,000 designer suits & Chanel dresses, USD15,000/- shopping money that was lost in London, chauffeur-driven luxury car, etc.???!!

You two are big-time LIARS! Have you forgotten that LIARS end up in the lake of fire?; December 5, 2008 at 10:38 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Young Ones,

My apologies. You are right, of course. I,too, was a strong and able lay leader in CC, but in my case it was "once upon a time"! hehehe :); December 5, 2008 at 10:42 AM
Anonymous said...: The medical condition of PG is ONEUPMANSHIP.

If you've got 1,000 members, I've got 5,000. If you've got 5,000, I've got 10,000.

If you've got 10 outreaches, I've got 20. If you've got 20, I've got 50.

If you've got 5 missionaries, outreaches, I've got 10missionaries. If you've got 10, I've got 20.

If you've got 5 Associate Pastors, I've got 10 Associate Pastors. If you've got 10, I've got 20.

If you've got 1,000-seating capacity church, I've got 5,000-seating capacity church. If you've got 5,000, I've got 10,000.

The list goes on....; December 5, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Flabbergasted,

"#5.… Money has never been our issue." Prince Guneratnam Quote UNquote.

My take is this: PG & Mrs PG has got so much $, that $ is never an issue for them. The $ keeps pouring in. How? I really dunno. Got to ask them.; December 5, 2008 at 11:03 AM
Anonymous said...: To add one more to Corporate Dr's list of ONEUPMANSHIP

If you have got 1,000 new members, I've got ONLY 100 new members. If you have got 2,000, I've got ONLY 200.; December 5, 2008 at 11:08 AM
Anonymous said...: Hello $$$ never an issue, Good thinking. I get it now. Money never an issue becoz they don't have to worry about performance & appraisal. Money just flow into their pocket whether good or bad economic times. Like that how to expect this couple to retire. The whole world working class got retirement age but not this couple.; December 5, 2008 at 11:39 AM
Anonymous said...: In my Christian walk, I have come across many Christian retirees who have held that they had not just RETIRED but that in their retirement, they had been REFIRED to serve the Lord.

My appeal to PG & NFF is that they should learn from these people & they both should just RETIRE gracefully from CC so that the Lord can then REFIRE them as He use them in the evangelism field.

My fear for PG & NFF is that the good living at CC may have spoilt them such that they will just want to hang on to their jobs at CC. If so, then the Lord can't REFIRE them but He sure can FIRE them.

Remember what you have often preached from the pulpit, PG; "I have come into this world with nothing & I shall leave this world with nothing".; December 5, 2008 at 11:56 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes, please leave with nothing, PG & PG2! You've overstayed your welcome! We want a new beginning for Calvary Church: new senior pastor, new BOD, new APs, the whole works! Calvary Church does not belong to you, so let go and LET GOD take back the controls!; December 5, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Clap Clap!! I like your Retirement, "Refirement" and "Fire" Concepts! Very enlightening indeed!

"Cin Chim" hokkien words! Very deep thoughts for all to comprehend.; December 5, 2008 at 12:51 PM
Anonymous said...: How many of you out there are like "the last straw"? Either in denial about wat's happening in CC or simply don't want to know/get involved? I say the time has come for you all to come out and make a stand. God will give you courage and wisdom and the boldness to speak out at the appropriate time. It is encouraging that "the last straw" has been enlightened and is now joining the fight for Truth, Transparency and Governance. How many more will join him/her? Speak out!!!!!; December 5, 2008 at 1:38 PM
Anonymous said...: More revelations and truths revealed like cockroaches coming out after lights out. These are not fabrications or malicious allegations (like we have nothing better to do). Heed the revelations of those who choose to tell-all. It must sit heavy on their chests if they continue to bear the burden. I salute all the brave ones for sharing what they know. Remember to fear God and not man. Do the right thing.; December 5, 2008 at 1:49 PM
Anonymous said...: Let us unite strongly and stage a civil coup de'tat to usurp the Pulpit like the
Thai people taking over their Airport

These will bend their knees and
let them cried out to the Lord.; December 5, 2008 at 2:11 PM
pshn said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; December 5, 2008 at 2:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Proverbs 29:24 (AMP):

24 Whoever is partner with a thief hates his own life; he falls under the curse (pronounced upon him who knows who the thief is) but discloses nothing.

Proverbs 29:24 states that a man who partners with a thief really does not care about his own life, for he knows the consequences and does it anyway. The accomplice of a thief is his own enemy. A thief will threaten an accomplice, because of what they know, and he will make them swear, they will not tell on them. Out of fear under such an oath, he dares not testify. This is a world of deceit, and in time, it will come down.; December 5, 2008 at 2:38 PM
Anonymous said...: For those who do not dig (oops, I mean understand) PSHN's comment, let me put it BLUNTLY :-

STOP GIVING ANYMORE MONEY TO PG via CC.
CREATE A CASHFLOW PROBLEM FOR PG SO THAT HE WILL BE FORCED TO ABDICATE.

Yes, even earthly Kings were forced to abdicate when the masses turned against them.

To all of you out there, let me declare that I have STOPPED GIVING any money to CC since a couple of weeks ago.

Have You ???; December 5, 2008 at 2:45 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm also going to turn off my $$$ tap, wef this Sunday.; December 5, 2008 at 3:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Turn Off The Tap,& others,

As an alternative, you can consider the following to be the recipients of your generous giving as unto the Lord,...

BCM is looking for sponsors for 3 students from China to complete their Christian education so that they can be better eqwuipped to teach & disciple the Christians in China. Surely a most worthy cause....this is what true missions giving is all about, & NOT to finance PG & PG2's extravagant lifestyle & excesses! What say you?; December 5, 2008 at 3:07 PM
Anonymous said...: True Missions Giving,

You have my 100% support on this worthy cause, just let me know who I shall address my cheque to & where to send it to.; December 5, 2008 at 3:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes,

Be your own mission director.

If you are not sure where the money goes when you give to CC, then give to somewhere else directly where you can see the need for it.

Remember, dont feed the CASH COW.

Its getting too fat and stubborn.; December 5, 2008 at 3:43 PM
Anonymous said...: To ReTirement vs ReFirement at 11.56am,

Your comment has prompted me to check out the Bible & the apostle Paul once said (in 1.Tim 6:6 - 11):-

“Godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs. But you, man of God, flee from all this, and pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance and gentleness”

I guess he was addressing to PG when Paul said "but you, man of God, flee ....." Unfortunately, PG did not heed Paul & PG has aligned himself with the "some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith ....."

Oh PG! Oh PG! Why didn't you just stick with the Word & practise what you preached? Don't you realised that you have been seduced by the devil & you are now craving for earthly riches instead of godly riches?

God had GREAT plans to prosper you but ALAS you dug your own spiritual grave ........; December 5, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Anonymous said...: Agree 100 %, give your $$$$ to causes or ministries that really do the work of God , for His Kingdoms' extension ...we are accountable to be good stewards. I have not been giving to CC since the EGM..I channel it to more worthy and deserving causes-Christian missions organisations and Christian organisations that feed the poor and share tHe Gospel to the poor and marginalized.; December 5, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Apple of His eye writes

I know the pastors of Glory Assembly of God in Pandan Indah, needs fund desperately to purchse the church premises which they are now renting. The owner has the intention to sell this premise to them but they do not have enough $$$. So it is my plea to you if the Lord has laid a burden in your heart and u would like to help them to purchase this premise, please help.; December 5, 2008 at 3:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Apple of His eye writes,

By the way, the church building cost RM1 million. Their church members have been raising this money but still cannot make up the figure.; December 5, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Anonymous said...: I was at last Sunday evening service , where PR preached on showing Agape love to the least , last and most...to me this is real hypocrisy..only preaching good sermons, where is the action? CC has got the money, but where has it all gone to? Talking behind the pulpit is not good enuf..be real!; December 5, 2008 at 3:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Turn Off The Tap & others like-minded brothers & sisters in the Lord,

Please send your cheques payable to

BIBLE COLLEGE OF MALAYSIA
99, JALAN GASING,
46000 PETALING JAYA

PLEASE REMEMBER TO DESIGNATE clearly YOUR CHEQUES FOR:

THE SPONSORSHIP OF STUDENTS FROM CHINA AND/OR CAMBODIA

If you want to make further enquiries you can call them up first @ 03-79565621, 03-79577232, & ask to speak to the President of BCM , Rev. Ng Kok Kee or the Academic Dean, Rev. Wendy Ching.

God bless you all as you sow into the Kingdom of God (& not the kingdom of PG & PG2!); December 5, 2008 at 4:06 PM
Anonymous said...: PG said at last Saturday's Leaders' meeting that "#5.… Money has never been our issue".

This is another classic half-truth from PG which unfortunately the naive & ignorant pro-PG supporters will swallow hook, line & sinker.

The half-truth is that PG is admitting that with a combined monthly pay (excluding other perks & the children's & in-laws' gaji) of RM 40,000, money has never been an issue for both PG & NFF. After all if not enough, can also charge to CC mah; just like the dog food - remember?

The half-lie (which is unspoken) is that PG wants to amass as much as he can for he has been seduced by the devil & PG wants to enjoy the worldly lifestyle like flying Business Class, Designer Suits & Shoes, Barber making House Calls, etc., etc.

PG, have you forgotten that God promised to meet your needs - food, raiment & shelter? He did not promised to meet your wants. Looks like what He didn't give you, you have been acquiring quietly on your own (thinking that nobody will know). Unfortunately, PG, you did so improperly & at your own peril. Now all the good works you did over the years have just tumbled over in a matter of months.

Sorry lah PG, you have made your mistakes. Now learn lah from the apple of God's eye (King David) & repent to God (& to the CC congregation) so that He will be merciful to you & your family.

Remember PG, you have often preached that the sins of the father would visit his children for generations. Would you want that to happened to the Guneratnam family? Would you want to put a curse on your descendants because of your running foul of the Word? Or do you not believe in the Word anymore? Thus explaining why through all these mess, you are still so defiant.

God will not be mocked.; December 5, 2008 at 4:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear all...frankly, I'm so tired of all this by now, was hoping it would be resolved before yr end but looking at how things are going, it's going to drag on for a while more.really so tired of hearing anything that comes out from PG, wife and BOD's mouths.Don't even wanna see their faces anymore, so tired of seeing their faces pretending like all is well.; December 5, 2008 at 4:29 PM
pshn said...: CONTINUE TO GIVE MONEY............TO GOD

Don’t forget to give your tithes regularly to God
Because God promises to bless you if you are faithful(Mal 3:8)

Offerings are voluntary as God leads you.
It is not a sin not to give to Calvary Church.

Though under normal circumstances it is
good to support the church you are going to
The bible does not state anywhere that you
have to give ALL to any one church.

The Lord has a special concern for the following groups:
the widows (old folks), the orphans
and the foreigners (refugees, immigrants)

Deu 14:29 This food is for the Levites, since they own no property,
and for the foreigners, orphans, and widows who live in your towns.; December 5, 2008 at 4:34 PM
Anonymous said...: NFF commented that "#16. ..... people give money to individuals they can trust....." So NFF, are you saying conversely that "people SHOULDN'T give money to individuals that they CAN'T trust"? Do I understand you correctly, NFF?

If so, since I CAN'T trust PG anymore, I will just follow NFF's implied advice to STOP giving to CC for fear that it will land up in PG's coffers.

Thanks for the advice, NFF.; December 5, 2008 at 4:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Thank you PSHN for your following comment:-

"Offerings are voluntary as God leads you.
It is not a sin not to give to Calvary Church."

After reading "Turn Off The Tap" & others, I was not sure & I prayed for direction.

You have now enlighten me that Offerings are voluntary & thus optional.

Also you have confirmed that "it is NOT a sin NOT to give to Calvary Church", I shall now join the ranks of "Turn Off The Tap" & the others.; December 5, 2008 at 4:49 PM
Anonymous said...: PG, ARE YOU SURE?????
#5.… Money HAS NEVER been our issue."

1. Why PG transfer RM100,000 every 6 months to CIM without BOD and members knowledge?

2. WHY do we Need Faith Promise every year?????

3. WHY collect Christmas offering for the Pastors every year?

4. WHY PG always preached prosperity gospel?

5. WHY are there so many types of envelopes for offering?

6. WHY only share testimonies on giving and nothing else?

7. WHY sell a brick, bite size, leap of faith 1&2?

8. WHY charge fees for marriage counseling?

9. WHY charge fees for using of santuary?

10.WHY ?????????; December 5, 2008 at 4:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear tired, do not be tired but each week ask God to refresh us as we walk confidently into Calvary Church to meet with our Saviour Jesus Christ. Calvary Church is our Father's house (I quote from a TTG member) so we have every right to be there and we must be there otherwise they will think and act like the church belongs to them - no no - it's our God's house.

Look at it this way, we wait for so many months, RM1.05 million come back to the church account. If we had been impatient, we get zero man. Who knows... God may want to take back some more... so let us all be patient and not get weary or give up.

Isa 40:28-31, "The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He will not grow tired or weary and His understanding no one can fathom.
He gives strength to the weary and increases the power of the weak. Even youths grow tired and weary and young men stumble and fall; but those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings like eagles; they will run and not grow weary, they will walk and not be faint."; December 5, 2008 at 4:55 PM
Anonymous said...: To Tired at 4.29pm,

Your comment "...frankly, I'm so tired of all this by now, was hoping it would be resolved before year end ...." refers.

In Shakespeare's "Julius Caser", when Caesar delared to the soothsayer that "the Ides of March art come", the soothsayer replied "aye Caesar but not gone". After which Caesar went into the Senate & was murdered by Brutus & his gang.

Likewise, my reply to you for the year end is "aye Tired but not gone". For I have been praying hard for God to give us a good Christmas gift - the end of PG's days at CC. Do join me to pray for this Christmas gift so that thereafter we can see Truth, Transparency & godly Governance (TTG) restored again in our beloved CC.

Blessed Christmas, Tired.; December 5, 2008 at 5:01 PM
pshn said...: FOR THOSE WHO ARE TIRED OF IT ALL

Satan tempts you most when you are vulnerable.
Remember Jam 4:7 -
So then, submit yourselves to God.
Resist the Devil, and he will run away from you.
What you are facing after all is a battle
First against the spirit (devil) and then the flesh (PG)
Of course the devil wants you to be tired.
Notice the verse does not mention the devil first
But that you submit to God first.
I know one thing though,
if you win this battle you will be a stronger Christian
If you run away, you forfeit the chance God is giving you to grow

You can apply several strategies

1. You don’t have to attend all the services in CC
2. Attend a good Home-fellowship preferably in CC
But no reason why you cannot go and visit a
home fellowship from another thriving church
3. Above all don’t lose you membership in CC, because at the end of the day
your vote may be critical in an AGM/EGM (check your constitution
to see the requirements)
4. You are to contribute regularly to maintain membership in CC
but it does not state how much. So give a nominal sum via cheque
so there is a record with the bank to prove that you have given.
5. Pray for the group
6. Spend good devotion time with God – the best way of finding peace and relaxation
7. Joke and Laugh a lot with your friends and spouse.
8. Just remember – THEY( Pastors & BOD) ARE NOT WORTH LOSING SLEEP OVER.
9. Remember that this problem is also for God to develop your spiritual muscle...ok Arnold?
10. Victory may be just over the next hilltop

God bless.; December 5, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear PshN,

Thank you for the word of advice.

"Don’t forget to give your tithes regularly to God
Because God promises to bless you if you are faithful(Mal 3:8)"

Personaly I am holding to the tithes because of the situation now.

In fact many of my friends are doing the same thing.

We shall give the tithes that belongs to God after PG leaves the church.

Since you mentioned that we are the solution to PG's problem, then ALL of us should hold on to all our givings ie. tithes, faith promise, love offering, etc.....

And of course we will definately give to the needs around us.; December 5, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Hold On,

It is not really advisable to 'hold on to' your offerings & tithes to the Lord, because it would mean you are actually witholding the Lord's money, & indirectly holding back God's blessings on your life. It'll be better that you give all these tithes & offerings to other churches or Christian organisations involved with social work or missions, like Asian Outreach, Malaysian Care, BCM, Terence Sinnadurai's Faith Village (homes for orphans & old folks), Christian Drug Rehab centers, etc. You can get a copy of a booklet containing info on all the A/G social work from General Council.

This will also protect you from being tempted to use the money for yourself on a rainy day. Remember we are all vulnerable to temptation, so we must do what is right & not give a foothold to the devil in our lives. Holding back the Lord's money will be dangerous.; December 5, 2008 at 5:41 PM
pshn said...: HOW NOT TO TITHE TO CC

TITHES ARE GIVEN DIRECTLY TO GOD

And God will fulfill Malachi 3:10 for you.
Mal 3:10 Bring the full amount of your tithes to the Temple, so that there will be plenty of food there. Put me (God) to the test and you will see that I will open the windows of heaven and pour out on you in abundance all kinds of good things.

CONTINUE TO CLAIM THIS PROMISE FOR YOURSELF AND BE BLESSED!!

You are to bring the tithes to the temple. In those days there was only one temple in Juruslem and it was there that God resided. If you go to the temple, it means you are going to God.

In todays context we have churches, many of them, and from all denominations over all the whole wide world. You can give your tithes to ANY of these churches.

But of course it is only reasonable and common sense that you should give to the church that you are going to in order to help run it.

HOWEVER, WITH CC , SINCE THERE IS SO MUCH OF DISTRUST AND MANIPULATION and you want to be a good steward of your money, YOU CAN GIVE TO GOD DIRECTLY WHEREEVER HE CAN BE FOUND!

GOD CAN BE FOUND IN ANY OF THESE PLACES: Any of God’s churches in any part of the world including parachurch organisations, Christian organisations, orphanages, oldfolks home, Bible schools, Christian NGOs etc.

Just be sure they are authentic. You can give all of the tithes to one place or break it up to give it to a few places. God requires only one thing – give jokingly.......er I mean cheerfully, 2Co 9:7

BUT THE BIBLE IS SILENT over the above principle. And that is good. It means God is leaving it to your discretion. He is an ever merciful God.

However, If am wrong and God strikes you dead please let me know.

God Bless; December 5, 2008 at 5:51 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi pshN,

Well, if you were wrong, I would not be able to tell you as I would have been struck dead by God. Where to tell you, heaven or earth?; December 5, 2008 at 6:30 PM
Anonymous said...: Amen To pshN

One day, I went for my evening walk around my taman. As I walked, I also talked to the Lord. This I call it prayer walk.

During the walk, God impressed upon my heart to give a love offering to a widow with 3 children. I walked back to the house and took RMX,XXX and walked over to her house which is 3 roads away from where I stay.

Tears rolled down her cheeks when I gave her the money cos the following week school reopens.
She thanked me countless times.

I continue with my walk and praising our Lord and worshiping HIM.

The next day I fetched my daughter to collect her PMR results.
She is an average student and got 4As for her trial exams.

When she got her results, she was so stunt and could not believe her eyes. She checked her name over and over again.

I walked to her and asked,"How is it?"

She replied, "Mum straight As!!!!"
I asked, " Are you sure?"

God bless us in so many ways.

Money is never an issue here.

God Loves a CHEERFUL giver

All Glory belongs to HIM; December 5, 2008 at 6:32 PM
pshn said...: Soon Ling

You sure got the right spirit of giving. What a withess, What a testimony to the lady and the children. To them God is real.

pnshN; December 5, 2008 at 6:37 PM
pshn said...: To Nehe

Exactly

pshN; December 5, 2008 at 6:39 PM
Anonymous said...: By the way, it's GFF and not NFF as so many of you thought. Since nobody corrected I cannot tahan anymore. Sorry for correcting you guys but it really is GFF. Thank you!!!!!; December 5, 2008 at 8:28 PM
Anonymous said...: PG and Petrina are both going to gaol very soon. Watch out!

All the evidences are ready and the POLICE are scrutinizing it.

Wait and seelah. He better resign gracefully, otherwise he will fall miserably!; December 5, 2008 at 8:33 PM
Anonymous said...: My heart is very heavy as to the many posts giving suggestions not to give tithes, etc. to CC. Please do stop that.

Let everyone seek the Lord as to what they should do with their tithes, etc.

Each Church has expenses to run it.

PLEASE PRAY AND ASK THE LORD FOR HIS DIRECTION.

We do not need people to suggest what is best for us to do to please the Lord. It is between you and God.; December 5, 2008 at 9:13 PM
Anonymous said...: Please remember that our tithes and offerings demonstrates our desire to do the will of God, namely to support ministries and worthy causes whether they are within or "outside" the church. I have all this time since I became a Christian given to both "areas".

However our tithes and offerings are not meant to serve our purpose, in this case, to attempt to put pressure on the SP/the church to act (by diverting the money away_. This is notwithstanding that the money is indeed going to worthy and good causes.

If you desire to give "outside" the church, the intention must be to support the work/cause - full stop. All the comments appear to have intention other than this. And that I think is unhealthy.; December 5, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Agree with proper intentions.

Let us not be guilty before God that we deliberately not give to CC just to put pressure on the church. Let us not be so hard hearted, an eye for an eye.

If you still want CC to be YOUR CHURCH then your tithes belong to YOUR CHURCH. There should not be any argument on this.
Whether you want to give to other outside worthy causes it is between you and the Lord.

Let God's love reign in all your hearts and do what is pleasing to Him.; December 5, 2008 at 10:51 PM
Anonymous said...: but then, the bible never said that we have to give our tithes to our church. It just says give to God's storehouse isn't it? God's storehouse can be any organization or church that does the work of God.; December 6, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Anonymous said...: also, don't think I agree with what you said abt 'an eye for an eye', heavy heart. Why many of us readers here decide not to give our offering to CC anymore is because we don't want to see God's money being used for unneccesary purposes, ie. flying business class and what nots. God's money can be used better elsewhere instead of pampering a senior pastor so he won't get a backache when he flies.; December 6, 2008 at 12:37 AM
pshn said...: Please DON’T listen to Proper intentions and Heavy Heart
In their explanation they did not quote any scripture

I don’t want you to listen to me either.
I would like you to search the scriptures
And decide FOR YOURSELF i.e. it is between you and God

Many in CC have already been primed by PG to give tithes only to CC
NO! You give tithes to God because God asked you to give tithes to Him.
I remind you to read Malachi 3:10 carefully and several of my comments above.

Do not, for the sake of your own spiritual growth, be bonded and imprisoned to the type of thinking that Proper Intentions and Heavy Heart have. These two people are living bondage and they want you to join them. If two people are in the miry clay, and you are outside, thendon’t jump in to join them. Help THEM out of the mire.

And I have said in the comments above that although you can give your tithes
to God anywhere that He can be found i.e. to any church and Christian
organisations in the world,
The normal thing is to give it to the church that you go to, which in your case it is CC.

BUT in the case of CC, at this time, with absolutely poor church governance, based upon a totally imbalance constitution (because of changes initiated by PG and endorsed, as usual, by BOD),
improper handling of funds and poor transparencies (a Cooperate Chairman told me that the standard of integrity in CC is far below that of the secular world), where lies and half-truths
are constantly being spoken by PG & PG2 & BOG, and where the BOD, though elected by the congregation seek to only look into the welfare of the Guneratnams at the expense of the congregation,
THEN YOU HAVE THE FULL RIGHT TO PUT A HOLD ON ALL GIVINGS, INCLUDING TITHES, TO CC.
BUT CONTINUE TO GIVE TITHES TO GOD IN ANY PLACE WHERE YOU CAN FIND HIM.

If any of you think I am a heretic, then search the bible and show me.

BE GOOD STEWARD OF YOUR OWN MONEY.

It is a simple principle that we learn from very young – if you don’t take care of your own money who will??? PG, PG2, BOD, PO????

WHY GIVE MONEY TO A CHURCH WHERE THEY, “SAY ONCE YOU HAVE GIVEN YOUR MONEY TO THE CHURCH IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS TO FIND OUT WHAT THE CHURCH DOES WITH IT”.

I WILL ASK THE QUESTION, “WHO SAY?? “

YOU OWE IT TO GOD TO FIND OUT AND THE CHURCH OWES IT TO YOU TO TELL YOU!!!

Just because you have lived with a poor procedure for such a long time does’nt mean that you must continue to live with it forever!!!

No wonder you are dealing with CBT, extravagant expenditures and excessive pay to some pastors.

There is a simple but profound saying. If you are not happy with how things a going now and you are not willing to not change anything, then nothing will change.

TO MAKE A CHANGE, SOMETHING MUST CHANGE!!!

Please, and I should not be pleading to you calvarites, stand up, be firm, and with the help of your Almighty God chart the course in your own spiritual life. Who are you expecting to do it for you??
PG, PG2, BOD, PO???

If PG, in all these years of preaching to you have not taught you all to grow spiritually independent in God, then he has HE HAS TAUGHT YOU NOTHING EXCEPT TO GIVE, GIVE, GIVE........ and to whom may Isay????

WAKE UP! WASK UP! WAKE UP! WAKE UP EVERYONE.............
FROM YOUR SPRITUAL SLUMBER.; December 6, 2008 at 12:38 AM
Anonymous said...: To the BOD:

In any Church, the Board of Deacons is the supreme guardian of the Church not the pastor! Get that right! You failed to carry out your duties effectively as divine guardians! So you must go! Many of you have been there far too long and for ages and it is not healthy at all! Even Banks rotate their branch managers every other year for check and balance so as to maintain good governance! There are 6 of you but are intimitated by one man! How sad? So please exit gracefully and graciously! If not, please stand for truth as Godly men! Otherwise, help your pastors, they are not walking the talk!; December 6, 2008 at 1:20 AM
Anonymous said...: True Christian preaches Love and Forgiveness;

Fake Christian preaches Threats, Hatred, Allegations, Rumours and Gossips.

Beware -

Jesus is watching and listening to what we do every moment.

Jesus appears in all our prayer.; December 6, 2008 at 8:37 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Pshn,
Just a gentle reminder, don't act like this, don't say I love CC but I am not going to support CC by giving. just like I say I love my children but I am not going to feed them. Hey brother, please check yourself, there is non-righteous except God. to all you out there, don't try to act like a judge/executor for whatever happen in CC is God Business..God is Sovereign and God does not need human to help Him, remember God can raised anything and anyone to do His work. Submit yourself to God and see His Salvation.; December 6, 2008 at 8:53 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear jwcm,

Morning to you. Yes, I agree totally with you that God is Sovereign, but I disagree with you for saying God does not need human to help Him.....

Remember, we as His children are His hands and feet extended to expand His Kingdom on earth, and expanding His Kingdom does not only mean bringing people to His Kingdom, but we are also to be His hands and feet extended to rebuke and chastise those who stray away, including PG and Mrs PG.

Yes, we must forgive and love, but love is meaningless if we see PG and Mrs PG straying away from God's Truth and Purpose, and not do anything to stop them from going the other way (you know what I mean).

We are God's roadblocks, and we must not allow PG and Mrs PG to slide down the other road. Do you want to see them going that way???; December 6, 2008 at 9:07 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear All,
Here is short article by Spurgeon, try to meditate on it.
Remember God is always in Control not man or His creation.

God Bless,

SELF

Spurgeon, "THE SAINT AND HIS SAVIOR"

So long as we cling in the least degree to self, then
we have ground to distrust the reality of our salvation.
All trusting in your repentances, your tears, your sighs,
your groans, are for nothing, being but dross and dung
in the sight of the exacting Jehovah.

Self is the fly which spoils the whole pot of ointment;
but Jesus is the salt which makes the most poisonous
river to become pure. To be weaned from trusting in
our own good works is the hardest weaning in the world.

That which strips the creature of all attractiveness,
which mars the beauty of pride, and stains the glory
of self-sufficiency, is from Jesus.

But that which exalts man, even though it make you
moral, gracious, and outwardly religious, is of the devil.

JWCM; December 6, 2008 at 9:13 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear jwcm,

How naive and irresponsible of you say "To all you out there, don't try to act like a judge/executor for whatever happen in CC is God Business..God is Sovereign and God does not need human to help Him, remember God can raised anything and anyone to do His work. Submit yourself to God and see His Salvation."

Hi brother/sister, woe unto us if we just sit back and see His church being plundered and abused and do do anything about it, but continue to chant the mantra "let God be God". This is called APATHY or INDIFFERENCE, and I believe it's a sin to have such an attitude.

Remember, there is both a SIN OF COMMISSION as well as a SIN OF OMISSION. Playing it safe by not rebuking and chastising is committing the latter type of sin.

Pray about it over the weekend before you continue to preach to others about the Sovereignity of God, and our role as His hands and feet.; December 6, 2008 at 9:26 AM
Anonymous said...: To God's hands and feet said -

Beside SIN OF COMMISSION and SIN OF OMISSION, there is SIN OF BASELESS ALLEGATIONS.

Show documentary proofs before we believe you.

God is watching.; December 6, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Anonymous said...: Well said jwcm, and I quote you from Spurgeon:

"But that which exalts man, even though it make you moral, gracious, and outwardly religious, is of the devil."

Spurgeon's every word apty describes the man PG. That's why we must chastise and rebuke him and block him from going down the other way.; December 6, 2008 at 10:18 AM
Anonymous said...: To JWCM

You are right. They act like Judges, Juries and Executors.

God is great, He knows who is fake!; December 6, 2008 at 10:21 AM
Anonymous said...: Anonymous,

To correct you, BASELESS ALLEGATIONS fall under the category of SIN OF COMMISSION, just in case you're not aware.

What made you think TTG doesn't have the evidence? By the way, evidence need not necessarily be documentary proof. Have you attended a court hearing or at least read of it in the newspapers? Have you heard of testimonies of witnesses? You think PG is dumb to document his moves? It is people like you that PG and his gang can dupe.; December 6, 2008 at 10:25 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Anonymous,

Amen, God is great and He knows the fakes such as Mr & Mrs PG and the likes.; December 6, 2008 at 10:29 AM
Anonymous said...: to God's hands and feet

If you have witnesses, bring to CC. Don't hide your witnesses in CT. That is against TRANSPARENCY!; December 6, 2008 at 10:32 AM
Anonymous said...: JWCM, & Anon 9:57 am,

How blinded you are! All the evidence has been openly displayed on the blog for all to see & verify....you are welcome to check it out!

"Better is open rebuke than hidden love." (Proverbs 27:5)

God is using CT & TTG as one of the roadblocks to hell for PG & PG2...please realise this!; December 6, 2008 at 10:52 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Anonymous,

Bring witnesses to who? PG? Mrs PG? BOD? Who, tell me?

PR - of course can't as he's the culprit.

Mrs PG - definitely not as she's with her man all the way.

BOD - they're sleeping, mesmerised and blinded.

Can TTG bring to you?; December 6, 2008 at 10:59 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Anonymous,

How to hide witnesses in CT? It's fully transparent. You see what we see, and we see what you see. But you don't see what we see, but we see what you don't see. Do you see it yet?

BTW, how to hide witnesses in CT? It's a blog so how to hide them here. Can you convert witnesses into digital format and hide them here? Terror you!!! I really don't see what you see. Maybe you see what I don't see.; December 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; December 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; December 6, 2008 at 11:05 AM
Anonymous said...: Oophs, sorry. Posted 3 times. Maybe I don't see what I've posted early. Anonymous, you see what I mean. Sometimes even I don't see what you see.; December 6, 2008 at 11:07 AM
Anonymous said...: It's alright I See...! This is what you mean by "emphasizing your point"! kekekeke..! :)

What you are referring to is, 'selective knowledge', i.e. one chooses what one wants to see or know. Even though the evidence is right in front of them, if they refuse to see it they won't see it!; December 6, 2008 at 11:27 AM
Anonymous said...: Than you Laughter Is Good Medicine,

You sure see what I see, but I pray Anonymous and other PG-supporters can also see what we see. Thanks.; December 6, 2008 at 11:41 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear All...just ignore ppl like Anon 9.57am and JWCM etc. They're in the last leg of a losing battle (PG losing of course) and are still trying to say ignorant stuff like 'proof it' and 'these are baseless allegations'. They're probably shivering in their socks right now coz they know the end of PG is near. All PG supporters...better stop being in denial coz the truth WILL set u free!; December 6, 2008 at 12:15 PM
Anonymous said...: They are some who choose to remain blind or deaf and dumb so let us leave them alone. They choose to believe in lies and half truths. One day the truth will be exposed and they have to quietly acknowledge that they were being naive, stubborn and under the spell of deception.

As to the allegation that TTG are fakes, God knows who the "real fakes" are as He searches all our hearts and none can hide from Him. "All are required to give an account of their deeds whether good or bad, in His presence one day".

We have no ulterior motive or personal agenda at all, just to stand up for truth and righteousness and to ask God to restore Calvary Church to its rightful place and be the vessel fit for His use to reach out to the lost and minister to all who are in need.

We are not afraid to stand up for truth & righteousness and be counted among those who are bullied and oppressed by CC leadership.; December 6, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Good afternoon to all especially you dear JWCM,

Why you so worried abt what pshN is saying? He just telling his point and supported by Scriptures. I enjoy reading becoz I'm indirectly doing my devotion/Bible reading at the same time.

Same with reading this blog. We get to know what is happening and not look so stupid when we meet friends and they ask us and we always in the blurr everytime. At least now, we get to know about things quite fast I must say.

The church leaders and you and your other friend/s, really think that we are stupid to believe without thinking and looking at evidence before we act. There can be no fire without a spark. Members would not stop giving because someone tells us not to give.

If we stop giving it is because we see with our own eyes the extravagant lifestyle of our SP & family. We feel the excessive expenses the church incur on unnecessary things like printing handbills for Friday night open session Bible Studies just because SP or SAP is teaching. On glossy paper mind you. This is unnecessary waste of money becoz they always land in my dustbin. Why change our comportable pews? These chairs are so high, most of the ladies legs cannot touch the floor.

You see, we notice alot of things and we are unhappy about alot of things, But who do we tell? Actually, I have spoken to many APs before. They smile mumble something that is not an answer and that's it. We go home and pray and tell God and this is HIS ANSWER.

Now to your comment, " God does not need human to help Him, remember God can raised anything and anyone to do His work." I praise and thank God for He does use human help to do His work. Throughout history GOD HAS USED HUMANS TO HELP HIM DO HIS WORK - The 12 deciples were humans, Apostle Paul was human. BTW PG is also a human.

It is only when humans refuse to help Him do His work that He uses "anything" like stones or "anyone" like a donkey to help Him.

TTG I know certainly do not fall under "anything" or "anyone" as you described. They are GOD'S ANSWER to many of our prayers for so many years. They are the humans that God is using to help Him to set the church leaders right. If they refuse to be the humans that God wants to use to help Him, then He will have no choice but to use the "stones' and the "donkies".

If anyone heed nshP's comment, then maybe you shoud tell our church leaders that God may be asking them to REALLY LIVE BY FAITH - go on their knees and PRAY for God's providence.

I read from Karen's comment that they meet every week to pray. If God is not for them and answering their prayers, this blog would have been shut down before they can even say - PRAISE THE LORD!!

So be careful what you pray and say, God is listening.; December 6, 2008 at 12:30 PM
Anonymous said...: The trouble is many Calvarites actually see what we really see, but still pretend they don't see what we see. They are in a state of denial, just like GFF, BOD, pastors and PG supporters and sympathisers.

Hear ye, hear ye! It's time to come out of your denial syndrome. It may be comfortable initially, but as you stay longer in that state, you will be lulled into a state of compromise, living in half truths and cover-ups.

God despises half truths and cover-ups. He's the Light and in His Light, all half truths and cover-ups will eventually be uncovered and revealed. When that happens, your moral and spiritual nakedness will be seen by all.; December 6, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Amen and Amen to that, JSK!; December 6, 2008 at 12:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, you are right JSK. Our church incurs expenses for unnecessary things like printing handbills on glossy paper for Friday night open session Bible Studies just because PG or GFF is teaching. When SK conducts his open sessions, it's barco announcement only.

Talking about PG being shy. What a joke, GFF. He's seeking all the limelight. GFF, you call this shy???; December 6, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Hey JSK,

What is this animal called "donkies"? Kindly enlighten.; December 6, 2008 at 12:44 PM
Anonymous said...: GFF's role at last Saturday's briefings for leaders reminds me of the spokesman and spokeswoman for President Bush. They stand up before the media to speak on his behalf. When they say something wrong, the President will say he didn't say it.

I've been kept informed that GFF acts as PG's spokeswoman very often at CC staff devotions and other meetings. She justifies PG's everything - from his actions to his attitudes, etc, etc.

GFF is indeed a classic helpmate - in every sense of the word as she is also PG's spokeswoman too.; December 6, 2008 at 12:55 PM
Anonymous said...: donkies = dongkees = mule = ass (no pun intended) = small domestic horselike creature; December 6, 2008 at 12:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Don't think it is unbiblical to give tithes/offerings to God's work other than that carried out by Calvary Church. God's work is God's work wherever it is done.

I think what Heavy Heart and Proper Intentions is saying is that by all means give to areas/ministries outside Calvary Church but I agree that the intention should not be to "force" any issues which we are facing within. If intentions were right, you would have been giving all these years instead of only now changing.

Really it is which comes first ... God moving your heart to give some/all of your tithes/offerings to somewhere else (and as a result less money is received by Calvary) OR you are fedup of what's going on and want to use/divert your giving to prove a point (and as a result other areas/work which are noble and worthy benefits). I think the former is okay but the later is not what I feel God intends your tithes/offerings to be.; December 6, 2008 at 1:08 PM
Anonymous said...: I think the real issue at hand is, do we want to see God's money being used to:

1. help the poor and needy and to reach out to the lost and broken?

OR

2. send a Senior Pastor and his family to USA for a conference via Business class?

You decide; December 6, 2008 at 1:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Looks like PG is a real statesman these days as he already has the following:

a) driver

b) bodyguard (the one who walked him from his seat to the pulpit when he spoke at the hockey stadium at Easter service recently)

c) personal assistant

d) pastor in attendance - similar to minister (cabinet minister) in attendance - for special events like Easter & Christmas presentations

e) spokeswoman - GFF

f) campaigner - TO who acted so well in all the 3 briefings for leaders last Saturday.

g) sermon vetter (designated pastor to vet his sermons, or speeches (???)

h) lawyers

i) forensic accountants

j) cheer party; December 6, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Real issue on hand,

I vote for Option 1 : help the poor and needy and to reach out to the lost and broken.; December 6, 2008 at 1:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Like GFF, I give to those I TRUST. I learn this from my pastor GFF, and I quote her:

"By the way, people give money to individuals they can trust. They don’t give to church name and say ……" GFF, speaking at CC briefings for leaders, 29 November 2008, Antioch Bungalow, Damansara Heights, Kuala Lumpur.; December 6, 2008 at 1:39 PM
Anonymous said...: Thanks "discernment needed" for saying:

"Really it is which comes first ... God moving your heart to give some/all of your tithes/offerings to somewhere else (and as a result less money is received by Calvary) OR you are fedup of what's going on and want to use/divert your giving to prove a point (and as a result other areas/work which are noble and worthy benefits). I think the former is okay but the later is not what I feel God intends your tithes/offerings to be."

Lets do what the Lord is speaking to your heart - please do not do any brainwashing. We already feel this in church so let us not fall in this trap.

Move on to more important issues ie, should we not take up the offer by the deacons that they are open to hear us. Let's write with many signatures or call them to object to the selection of the members of the committee. This is a more concrete move than to keep on harping on certain issues. They may not be persuaded but who knows what the result would be. If we do not try we will never know.

God is in control!; December 6, 2008 at 1:54 PM
pshn said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; December 6, 2008 at 1:58 PM
Anonymous said...: CCC will cost about RM300 million.

It includes:

1. Land cost

2. Building cost

3. Fittings and fixtures;

4. Audio, video and communications stuff

5. Consultancy fees

6. Price increase.

But we should not forget that there will also be the maintenance cost which in my own estimate, it will be in the region of RM500,000 to RM700,000 per month.

So, even RM255 million is an underestimate.; December 6, 2008 at 2:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Well, to PG, $$$ (spelt "money") has never been his issue as he proudly declared (or was he boasting??) at the recent leaders' briefings.

Why is $$$ never an issue to PG? It's simple. We Calvarites are known to be very trusting and generous. Whether it's Faith Promise, Mustard Seed Giving, Leap in Faith I & II, etc, etc, we give and give and give. Some even fast and give their meal savings (but I don't seem to have a scripture to support such a practice). It's a give-and-give mentality all these years.

PG knows Calvarites will continue to give as he, his associates and even guest speakers are constantly conditioning Calvarites to give and give. Some preach giving openly while others are more subtle and discreet by weaving the "give message" within his sermon - it's akin to a message within a message, like a trial-within-a-trial in court hearings.

But praise to our God for He has enlightened many of us on how and where we can give, so that His work will continue to flourish. We should not be bound by what has been preached by PG, his associates and even guest speakers. We are wiser now and more discerning on who and where to give, as long as God's Great Commission is fulfilled. That's the bottomline.; December 6, 2008 at 3:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Heavy Heart,

Your comment :-
"Lets do what the Lord is speaking to your heart - please do not do any brainwashing. We already feel this in church so let us not fall in this trap."

You're right, God has spoken to me to TURN OFF THE TAP.
You're right again, we have had enough of brainwashing in CC & we don't need you or JWCM to brainwash us.
As for pshN, I am glad for his scripture reading which really nourishes my soul unlike those from CC's pulpit which is more of prosperity gospel asking for money, money & more money - just look at the various coloured envelopes in front of you at the pews.

Your comment:-
"...should we not take up the offer by the deacons that they are open to hear us. Let's write with many signatures or call them to object to the selection of the members of the committee. This is a more concrete move than to keep on harping on certain issues. They may not be persuaded ....."

Where were you when we had the EGM on 15th Aug? If you were there, were you awake? If you weren't, haven't you heard that 7 proposed resolutions which were properly drafted & submitted to the BOD (in line with CC's constitution) were just discarded?

The discarding of the 7 proposed resolutions remind us of PG's "use & discard" policy as regards ex-leaders & axed-leaders.

At least in closing you were right, "the BOD may not be persuaded" because they fear the man of God more than they fear God. So the question to ask of the BOD is "who are they worshipping - God or the man of God?"

Anyway, God has given us wisdom & we should use it for fear that non-usage may cause it to rot & wither. As for me after hearing both sides & praying about it, I have heard from God to TURN OFF THE TAP.

After all if God wants to reprove PG, who am I to stand in His way? Have you ever stood in between your spouse (with a cane in hand) & your child (who is being reproved)? If so, didn't you get whacked sometimes (though not intentional)?

So I will not stand in God's way & I will obey Him to TURN OFF THE TAP as He intends to reprove PG for PG's misdeeds.; December 6, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Unknown said...: TO: The end is nigh

When you don't have proof of your baseless allegations, don't throw tantrum to cover up.

When you don't have proof your baseless allegations, don't accuse anybody of SP's man, to cover up.

I am not someone's man, I am God's man.

I JUST WANT TO KNOW THE FACTS FROM THE "TRUTH"

Next time, if you have no proof, don't throw tantrum and accuse people.

Don't get angry. That is not good for you.; December 6, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Anonymous said...: Helen M

We will find out the fact.; December 6, 2008 at 4:53 PM
Anonymous said...: LETS GET BACK TO ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE BLOG

The Purpose For the mutual encouragement, enlightenment and empowerment of Calvarites; members and worshippers at Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur.

To eliminate speculations, rumours and gossips and always for the Truth to be established on all matters regarding Calvary Church.

To enhance awareness among Calvarites on transparency, accountability and governance issues in the Church.

To provide the Church leadership with objective and useful feedback from Calvarites helping them to fulfill their calling as chosen leaders in the Church.

To help the Church leadership enhance and improve transparency, accountability and governance in the Church.

To help restore Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur as a fountainhead church fulfilling the role that God has for it.

Objectives of the Blog

To be an easily available source of information on the issues raised commencing from the questions asked at the 2007 AGM on CalvaryLand and the Extended Ministries.

To provide a platform for continuing open discussion on the issues raised, to solicit for constructive comments and suggestions towards the peaceable and amicable resolution of the issues in a Christ like manner.

To garner support for the establishment of two independent committees; the Truth and Reconciliation Committee and the Constitution Review Committee.; December 6, 2008 at 5:00 PM
Anonymous said...: I agree. Lets be focus. Be Christian like and serve God and the Church.

We must go back to basic.; December 6, 2008 at 5:35 PM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous 5.35

Go back to basics - spend time to read bible and pray for all issues in CC be resolved amicably and peacefully. Be Christ centred!; December 6, 2008 at 5:43 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Helen,

What proof you want?

Inspite of Mr KK Wong telling us that CIM is OK - CIM still de-registered by NECF.

Inspite of the "Ang Moh" name auditor said that CIM a/cs OK - Now all money still must give back to church.

The church now so empty - you can come late and still choose your parking lot, is proof that there is something wrong in CC.

Even when SP & SAP is sacked, people like you will still be asking for proof.

Why you say "the end is nigh" throw tantrum. He/she is just warning, "All PG supporters...better stop being in denial coz the truth WILL set u free!" This is helping a bro/sis who is going the wrong way.

Can you please specify what is this "baseless allegations" that I keep reading about?

Months ago, the deacons made a public announcement about some "malicious allegations" which the church members have asked till their face turn blue, still up to now no specific statements given.

Now I keep reading people like you talking about "baseless allegations". Please be transparent like CT, quote the specific "baseless allegations" then we can see from your point of view. Please don't drop your baseless allegations here. Be transparent. Better still, go meet Karen tomorrow in church and ask her for proof.; December 6, 2008 at 6:14 PM
Anonymous said...: To Helen..
Oh, if anyone is throwing a tantrum, it is you. i am totally at peace with what is happening now as truth and righteousness will triumph over evil soon, and when that happens, people like you will then have to admit you were wrong all this while.Yes, do show us what these baseless allegations are. All you ppl can say is there is no proof blah blah blah. frankly, we are tired of you yes men. And looks like the person getting angry here and throwing a tantrum is not us, but you. How sad.; December 6, 2008 at 6:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Helen, u said u want to know the facts from the truth ar...aiyo, go read the articles in the blog la.if u still cannot see the facts and the truth, i pity u la.i hope u r not the helen who is in the so called new committee,otherwise really hopeless committee la; December 6, 2008 at 6:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Brother/Sister Helen,

Just a small clarification. You say, and I quote you, "I am not someone's man, I am God's man."

You're not Helen, I suppose so I'll address you as brother.

Brother, be fair to the TTG. Which are the baseless allegations? Don't be like PG, through the spineless BOD, who were so quick to make a sweeping statement some months ago that the "allegations" by the TTG were "malicious". If TTG's allegations are indeed malicious, why bother to return the $$$? There must be some truth to the TTG's "malicious allegations"

Brother, please specify which are the baseless allegations. If you can't tell us the specific baseless allegations, you are making baseless allegations yourself, and it's not good, my brother. I pray God will grant you discernment so that your eyes and ears will be opened, and most importantly, your spirit will be able to discern the truth from the lies.

God bless and have a blessed and fruitful weekend.; December 6, 2008 at 6:33 PM
Anonymous said...: Helen,

I'm confused. U say u are u r not someone's man, but u r God's man. I don't get u. R u Helen or Alain? Please tell me. Alreadi weekend, brain not working well.; December 6, 2008 at 6:38 PM
Anonymous said...: Ah Heng, i dont think u r the confused one here,looks like Bro.Helen is d confused one.confused n delusional mayb; December 6, 2008 at 6:42 PM
Anonymous said...: Jail is OK. Free curry rice

Dont have to worry where to charge the dog food.

Both of them can do prison evangelism; December 6, 2008 at 6:50 PM
Anonymous said...: Prince Guneratnam, Petrina, all Associate Pastors and most deacons are under the SPIRIT OF DECEPTION. This I believe and discern.

There is a TRANSFERENCE OF SPIRIT which holds most Calvarites in bondage.

Most worshippers are hookwinked to believe Calvary Church is the ONLY CHURCH. Visiting preachers talked of Calvary Church as the greatest church. All these are part and parcel of a deceptive spirit.

I suggest Calvarites visit other churches. You will experience the joy, the peace, the love, the care....that you MISS in Calvary.

As for Pastors and Deacons, they will continue to live in a denial syndrome till they are all 'stripped naked' by more revelation. They are still blinded till their eyes open by the Lord.

Pray for one another..pray for these Pastors, deacons, many leaders and worshippers.; December 6, 2008 at 7:39 PM
Anonymous said...: There are TOO MANY LIES in Calvary Church

1. 1st - Calvary Convention Centre will be built with RM60M
2. 2nd - then in less than one year, the figure was changed to RM160M
3. 3rd - then, one year later, RM196M. But, they DARE NOT mentioned it. So, using deceptive ways, they hid RM50M under AV, professional fee, finishings, they talked of things most worshippers don't understand - valued engineering, negotiated subcontract,etc..etc. Instead of RM196M, they mentioned RM88M. Look small figure..Don't frighten them..
4. 4th - in international circle, they mentioned USD100M (which means RM360M)
5. 5th - in NST, they used RM100M

MOST SCARY..none of the Pastors and deacons DARE CORRECT the DIFFERING FIGURES, the DISCREPANCIES, the HALF-TRUTHS, the LIES.

MOST SCARY...these LEADERS are so weak when at this hour they are expected to be STRONG IN LEADERSHIP.

MY CONCLUSION..they all must resign if they can't stand up for TRUTH, TRANSPARENCIES, GOVERNANCE and one more RESPONSIBILITY; December 6, 2008 at 8:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, I fully agree with you, TTG Supporter.

There is no intergrity and honesty left in BOD and Pastors. ALL must step down and apologise to CC members and worshippers. They must not hide behind the Constitution and lawyers' opinion and forensics auditors' report.

The longer they drag matters the deeper they fall into the mire. By God's grace and mercy there is still a little time for them to be rescued. May they come to a self realisation soonest and surrender to the Holy Spirit's prompting.

We feel sorry for their families, who get dragged into the mud as well.

God have mercy on all.; December 6, 2008 at 8:46 PM
Anonymous said...: don't nd to feel sorry for their families as the BOD and other pastors don't seem to feel sorry for hurting the church members by protecting PG blindly. The families of BOD and pastors also hv a responsibility to speak to their husbands/wife/fathers/mother on things they realize are not done rightly and if they don't,they are also guilty; December 6, 2008 at 8:51 PM
Anonymous said...: To All,

Why no one is listening ?

LETS GET BACK TO ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE BLOG

The Purpose For the mutual encouragement, enlightenment and empowerment of Calvarites; members and worshippers at Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur.

To eliminate speculations, rumours and gossips and always for the Truth to be established on all matters regarding Calvary Church.

To enhance awareness among Calvarites on transparency, accountability and governance issues in the Church.

To provide the Church leadership with objective and useful feedback from Calvarites helping them to fulfill their calling as chosen leaders in the Church.

To help the Church leadership enhance and improve transparency, accountability and governance in the Church.

To help restore Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur as a fountainhead church fulfilling the role that God has for it.

LETS GET BACK TO ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE BLOG

The Purpose For the mutual encouragement, enlightenment and empowerment of Calvarites; members and worshippers at Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur.

To eliminate speculations, rumours and gossips and always for the Truth to be established on all matters regarding Calvary Church.

To enhance awareness among Calvarites on transparency, accountability and governance issues in the Church.

To provide the Church leadership with objective and useful feedback from Calvarites helping them to fulfill their calling as chosen leaders in the Church.

To help the Church leadership enhance and improve transparency, accountability and governance in the Church.

To help restore Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur as a fountainhead church fulfilling the role that God has for it.

LETS GET BACK TO ORIGINAL PURPOSE OF THE BLOG

The Purpose For the mutual encouragement, enlightenment and empowerment of Calvarites; members and worshippers at Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur.

To eliminate speculations, rumours and gossips and always for the Truth to be established on all matters regarding Calvary Church.

To enhance awareness among Calvarites on transparency, accountability and governance issues in the Church.

To provide the Church leadership with objective and useful feedback from Calvarites helping them to fulfill their calling as chosen leaders in the Church.

To help the Church leadership enhance and improve transparency, accountability and governance in the Church.

To help restore Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur as a fountainhead church fulfilling the role that God has for it.

Stop quarreling and start praying.

We want piece of mind in the Church praying and worshipping.; December 6, 2008 at 9:30 PM
Anonymous said...: I say it again... PG and Petrified Petrina are going to the Gaol in Kajang very soon. Wait, look and see if you believe me.

They are done.; December 6, 2008 at 9:36 PM
Anonymous said...: They are Cha Siew and Roast Chicken if they landed in the Kajang Gaol. They will have plently of friends and will be able to share their similar handiworks like lying,cheating and talking about money.

Carry on lying lah PG and petrified petrina!

No Shame Kah?

DON'T PLAY PLAY WITH GOD AND its saints and priests.; December 6, 2008 at 9:39 PM
Anonymous said...: PG and Petrified Petrina... are you all of no shame? Carrying on doing what you are doing?

Pastors are highly accountable to GOD. In fact you are like those priest serving during times of Aaron.

God will bring fire down to devour the sacrifice or bring down fire to burn the priests who offers the sacrifice! GOD don't make mistakes. We make mistakes and expect GOD to correct them for us.

Who do you think GOD is? Your office boy or servant?

You think about it Lah!; December 6, 2008 at 9:42 PM
Anonymous said...: I don't believe you all are Christians.; December 6, 2008 at 9:45 PM
Anonymous said...: There are some who try to keep to the issues notwithstanding stating their stand quite strongly which I may or may not agree. But there are others who use words unbefitting of the name of our Lord .. whether they are Christians or not, that is something not for me to judge.; December 6, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Anonymous said...: I am confused whether I am surrounded by Christians or not.; December 6, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Anonymous said...: I hope they are but ..................; December 6, 2008 at 10:19 PM

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Thursday, December 4, 2008

CIM RETURNS CHURCH MONEY

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