Calvary Today: CIM RETURNS CHURCH MONEY

Thursday, December 4, 2008

CIM RETURNS CHURCH MONEY

In a “surprising” turn of events, Calvary International Ministries, the personal ministry of Pastor Prince Guneratnam, announced last Saturday that it is returning all the balance money in its bank account amounting to RM1.05 million back to the Missions Dept of Calvary Church. The amount was the balance remaining from the RM1.3 million that was transferred from the Missions Dept to CIM between 2002 and 2007 without the knowledge or approval of the church members. This “change of heart” is a complete turnaround of the adamant attitude that we saw in Pastor Prince during the recent EGM.

The members were informed for the first time during the recent EGM in August 2008 that the Board of Deacons had previously ratified and endorsed the monetary gift to CIM. Members were riled by the total lack of transparency and proper governance in the whole saga which had led to a split in the church. Our God is a faithful God and once again, He has answered our prayers. He has heard the cries of all those who have stood up for truth and transparency.

The deacons have also at last Saturday’s closed door meetings for church leaders, announced the following:-

1. CARED, which is a subsidiary of CIM has been transferred to our Church as an extended ministry. All the balance money in CARED’s bank account amounting to about RM400,000 has been transferred to a new CARED bank account under the Church. This money is the balance remaining from the RM576,961 that was transferred from the Missions Dept to CIM/CARED without members’ approval or knowledge in 2006 and 2007.

2. A Constitutional Review committee comprising of Bro Philip Tan, Sis Bernadette, Sis Helen Gan, Bro Dennis Xavier, and Bro Ong Keng Hock has been formed to undertake the review of the sections of our Church Constitution relating to financial provisions and nomination process for nomination committee, deacons and auditors. This committee does not have any representation from the TTG Group. The limited scope of the review has conveniently left out the main concern of all the Church members which relates to the office and authority of the Senior Pastor. This exclusion of one of the real issues confronting the church has already gotten a stamp of failure on the whole exercise from the start. It is certainly not what the members want.

3. The formation of the Financial Governance Committee is also another joke. The committee comprises Deacon Edward Rajasingam, Deacon Han, Bro Lee Tuck Heng (ex-church auditor), Bro Tam Kok Meng (present church auditor), Bro Au Weng Sang and Bro Ding Lai Hong. With the inclusion of 2 deacons and the previous church auditor, all of whom had been ignorant or overlooked the many accounting issues as well as the unauthorized transfer of funds from missions Dept to CIM, we wonder how effective this committee can be?

Both Senior Pastor and Sis Petrina shared at Saturday’s meeting. Here are some NOTE WORTHY STATEMENTS made by them during the meeting.

He said:

#1.… the church celebrated my 30 years celebration and in that celebration, we launched CIM and that is how CIM came to be … The church gave a gift of RM30,000-00 and everybody was glad and happy. …

#2.…Before that was known as Sr Pastor’s Overseas Travel and 30 years in celebration then gave it a name called CIM – it was a personal ministry. Personal in a sense it wasn’t Pas. Steven doing it, it wasn’t Pas. Peter doing it. It was me that was doing it so that’s where it was said that it was to be a personal ministry of Pas. Prince Guneratnam.

#3.…And also when it (CIM) was formed, it was also expressed that it will come a time…when the church gets big enough, …The Lord wants to move me into full-time to evangelistic … Then I will move into evangelistic … I will be changing my job, changing my role, changing my position, no more pastoring, now as an evangelist. You don’t call that retirement. You don’t retire. Just change of job. It’s changing your responsibility so CIM gave my overseas missionary ministry a structure, a structure to what I was doing.

#4.… CIM will release to Calvary Church all existing funds in CIM books, at this stage, a total sum of RM1,055,550-68, which means CIM now has a zero balance. So we’re going to return all that sum of money.

#5.… Money has never been our issue.

She said:

#6.… As Sr Pastor has said, “to give structure to a ministry that has been well accepted internationally and after 30 years. …. giving it a structure will help in the funding from people like Dr Cho and Pastors and many friends, from Japan …and people gave at the launch. This was in September 2002.

#7.… In 2003, we bought land for the CCC, … CCC then became our top priority. We must put CIM aside and not talk about CIM and people supporting this ministry, because we want everyone, including our friends, our contacts, to support CCC and we want to raise funds for CIM will be after CCC has been built…our desire was to channel all funds for CCC… and as some of you know, our good friend Dr. Cho gave two million and it could come to CIM…Pas. Robert and church also gave two million and some others…

#8.…So you say, “How did Missions get involved in giving to the seed fund?” Missions has always supported SP overseas ministry and God in the meantime, blessed our Missions and Faith Promise abundantly and since the Church has EXCESS fund, more money. After meeting all the commitment, there was still MORE money left from (for?) missions and since CIM is a missionary endeavor to missionary in nature, evangelistic crusade, a certain amount was appointed to CIM seed fund. Missions money can only be used for Missions.

#9.… Missions money has never been brought back to the church to be said whether it can be appointed or not. …So certain amount of money was given to CIM approved by the Missions Board as well as the Deacons. It was not something that we transfer. It was never like this. So that’s why Sr Pastor and I were very comfortable to receive this amount of money given to CIM because it was for ministry. …It was for crusades and fall in line with the criteria of money given to missions. ... And since we give hundreds to thousands….you heard, four million and we don’t come back to church for approval to give money for …Dr. Guynes ministry or for Peter Wagner who built the Prayer Tower….the Indian Pastor, David Mohan….

#10.… it never dawn on us and at the same time, you must know, Sr Pastor and I, all we know is ministry. We have not come from the secular world. I know nothing about CBT and I know nothing about this transfer of funds. Our thinking has always been spiritual. … so we accept it very gratefully and happily, as we put CCC first and not put the ministry that was personal, …and God in turn gave back to CIM …

#11.… When this perception was created, this misinterpretation, we immediately thought of giving back the money.

#12.... the Board Of Deacons never thought about having to come back to the church for approval, whether the amount can be given to the SP’s ministry/CIM. Maybe we took for granted that everybody would be so happy that we can support the SP’s ministry so and since we never have to come back to the church at large to say whether this money can be given or not. It was already designated for missions, so you know, that was it.

#13.…First of all, we needed to clear the allegations that it was CBT and pastor has said how the Board was brought in and it, that has been cleared. Now after the EGM, now we will return the money and it has been given back … because of certain allegations, it has become ugly and since God is always our source and if it will bring about peace and settlement, we are very happy.

#14.…Why call it Calvary International Ministry and since this is a personal ministry, why don’t call it Prince Guneratnam Ministry?... For all of you who know pastor, even a little, you know that Sr Pastor is a very reserved, shy person. He doesn’t talk about himself, neither does he talk about our family…. By nature he is always reserve…and so giving it Prince Guneratnam Ministry will bring a lot of attention to himself and he doesn’t want that. So that is the reason.

#15… Another reason why we call it Calvary International Ministry - our love and our recognition of Calvary Church. We are so much a part of Calvary Church. We have given the best of our years…35 years…Calvary Church will always be apart of us even when we go to heaven, I believe, when we die lah ah and we will, I hope, be apart of some of you. It was recognition affection that we call it Calvary International Ministry.

#16.… It was never meant to deceive people to give money to us using Calvary’s name. By the way, people give money to individuals they can trust. They don’t give to church name and say ……

#17.… Every sen has been accounted for by the Certified independent audit, accountant. All money has been returned. There is zero balance. The matter is considered closed, I hope.

Well, now that all the balance money in CIM has been transferred back to the Church Missions Dept (whether voluntarily or involuntarily, we leave it to you to decide), we sincerely hope that Pastor Prince and his dear wife will do the next right thing and that is, accept full responsibility for the crisis that the church is in and change job to do what has been in their hearts all these years and become evangelists.

God Bless.

422 comments:

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Anonymous said...: SP's wife said, "Missions has always supported SP overseas ministry and God in the meantime, blessed our Missions and Faith Promise abundantly and since the Church has EXCESS fund, more money. After meeting all the commitment, there was still MORE money left from (for?) missions ..."

She said it again and we follow her words. Since Missions and FP has so much excess money, we don't have to give anymore. Why let the Missions director get headache thinking what to do with the "more money left"? Might as well give to people that does not have excess or worst still, don't have enough. Those of you who know of churches and Christian works in need of money, please furnish name and address so we don't send to wrong place.; December 6, 2008 at 10:36 PM
Anonymous said...: To: Don't feel sorry

Indeed you are right concerning the adult familiy members, I was then just thinking of the innocent younger ones who of course will look up to their parents and will support and think well of their own parents, no matter what?

Certainly I agree with you that for those who are old enough to discern right from wrong, if these family members keep mum they are also condoning the wrongs and just as accountable.

Let us pray for a breakthrough and miracle that truly CC Pastors', Deacons's and loved ones' eyes will be opened, hearts be gentle to respond to the Holy Spirit and the truth become crystal clear! No more hiding, lying, camouflaging of wrongs and pretending but be humble, repentant and submissive to Holy Spirit's promptings.

We pray the Truth will be revealed and restored in CC. God is gracious to all.; December 6, 2008 at 11:04 PM
Anonymous said...: I read of Senior Pastor paid 25K per month salary, Sister 15K per month. How about Jim, Pam and Chris?

I wonder who determine their salary and promotion. I heard of a Human Resource Deacon. But, no where can I see who sit in the Human Resource Board. When I asked around, they said they is no such Board. Don't tell it is again one deacon and Senior Pastor determine everything!

I asked where are all monetary gifts received by Senior Pastor and sister. Again, no body knows. Also, Senior Pastor never declare. But, he has bank accounts in Singapore, US and Switzerland. Can someone share how to investigate!

Anyone knows, please help!; December 6, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Anonymous said...: Administration of our Church affairs seems to be like a secret society. No one knows how and who decides on HR matters? Would God be pleased with this kind of dominance by the head and co-head (SP and SAP)and SP's nominee or appointee?

Furthermore BOD is under so much oppression/ suppression as they are fearful and dare not speak up at all. Worst still they cover up for whatever is required of them.

One would expect Church administration to be even more transperant and fair & just as compared to secular organisations but sadly it is the opposite! CC is worst off so what kind of testimony is CC giving to outside world?; December 6, 2008 at 11:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Heard that Senior Pastor is paid 25K per month salary and Sister, 15K. How about Jim, Pam and Chris?

Heard that there is a Human Resource deacon but no Human Resource Board. Then, who determine their salaries and promotion. Don't tell us it's again Senior Pastor and the deacon.

Heard that Senior Pastor and Sister did not declare monetary gifts from overseas. Anyone can help whether it's true.

Is it true he has bank accounts in US, Switzerland and Singapore? Why so many accounts????????

Please help with answer.; December 6, 2008 at 11:28 PM
Anonymous said...: To you all Brothers and Sisters-in-Christ:

It is sad to read all the in-fighting here!

I have no reason to doubt anyone here, who do not love the Lord or are not being Christian. I believe you all love the Lord so much that you felt betrayed by your own pastors and the deacons.

A trust is broken and the integrity is at stake. And with the prolonged matters of the heart, it is not easy dissolve things of the heart - THE HURT!

But one thing is sure though, unfortunately SP didn’t end it well. And he has to pay for it. The least is to step down in honor if not leave the Church, to regain your creditability and the trust of the members.

I recall many instances our Calvary brothers and sisters (leaders or lay workers), while you are serving in the Church ministry but one mistake made, whizzz, off we go, we’ll surely be asked to leave whatever ministry we are serving in cos the Pastors would say we should not be a bad living testimony.. be it ushers, choristers, etc.

Senior Pastor, you should not be exempted from this, too!

You must walk the talk!; December 6, 2008 at 11:29 PM
Anonymous said...: can those who post as anonymous stop it???? it's so annoying as we don't know whether u r the same anonymous or different anonymous; December 6, 2008 at 11:48 PM
Anonymous said...: Sister felt that returning the money of more than 1M should be OK.

Is it so simple? How about the action, the behaviour and the conduct?

Just like politicians, take responsibility and offer to resign. Let the members decide whether they want you back or not to serve as Pastors.

This is the best option.; December 6, 2008 at 11:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Very Very True. Stop the infighting.

If SP loves the sheep, he offers himself to step down.

If members want him back to carry on as SP, let the members take a vote. If two-third agree, then he should be given a chance to carry on.

If no two third, he should accept that members have no confidence in him. A SP cannot get 70% vote means 30% is not in favour of him. Why carry on?; December 7, 2008 at 12:04 AM
Anonymous said...: For such conduct like SP, he just resigns and moves on as evangelist while he has energy. He is not young anymore.

Don't have to put to a vote; December 7, 2008 at 12:17 AM
Anonymous said...: It is NOT ENOUGH for SP just to give back all the money in CIM.

Firstly, he got the BOD to make an announcement accusing TTG members of being malicious.

Secondly, he got the BOD to bulldoze through during EGM, maintaining everything is legally and technically right.

Thirdly, SP and BOD engaged forensic accountant and criminal lawyer and paying them 25k to prove themselves right and TTG wrong.

Fourthly, SP and BOD flew in from US Pas Guynes by paying airfare, accomodation and pocket money of USD10k to be chairman to handle the TTG members.

Now, returning the money is an admission of wrongdoing somewhere. They gave an announcement of return of money but didn't gave the real reason.

Then, they didn't take responsibility to resign.

So, the least they can do is to pay back the church money used to pay accountant, expenses incurred on Guynes (of course the pocket money of USD10,000 - no small money)

Reasons: This is a personal ministry of SP. Why should the church paid for him? He lost the case and TTG is not in the wrong. In any court case, loser pays the cost and damages.

BOD acted as judge and executioner during EGM. BOD needs to get SP to pay cost and damages to the church. My estimate is at least 100K. Failing which, BOD themselves put a judgement on themselves to pay back 100K to the church. Failing which, all Associate Pastors whom SP appoints them as Elders advise them to pay back.

If all these are not done, where is justice in CC for the worshippers who gave money to God but misused by SP and BOD. Spiritual leaders in Associate Pastors cannot do a thing. Where is the recourse for those who genuinely give to God for God's work, not for defending their right and position. Shame on them!; December 7, 2008 at 1:13 AM
Anonymous said...: Anonymous @ 12.24am, 12.44am & 12.59am,

You don't have to post such a long article 3 times & clogged up the blog. You can just mention it & we can then read it at Berita Calvary. If you have nothing to do just go to bed so that you will be fresh for tomorrow's service.

Anyway thanks to you action, something good came out of it. For all those who still think that PG is blameless, King Solomon has this word for you “How long will you fools fight the facts?” (Proverbs 1:22 NLT).

Goodnight & let's pray that PG will not desecrate God's House by using the pulpit to do futher misdeeds like telling people to go to another church or worse still telling people to go jump in the lake (of hades).

PS to all the Anonymouses in the last 24 hours (I believe they are 1 & the same person); don't be stubborn, just use a moniker so that you don't confuse others. God hates a stiff neck.; December 7, 2008 at 1:30 AM
Anonymous said...: After all that has been exposed & told, our BOD still fear the man of God (PG) instead of fearing God (as we are taught by PG over the years; thus, the BOD should now stand for "Bodoh Or Dumb" as that's how the deacons appear to me.

As for the prime culprits (PG & GFF), they should just live up to their new names of "Please Go & Go Fast & Forever". As CC don't want you anymore not after you had secretly transferred RM 1.9m, the transferring back of RM 1.0m is just an admission by you of the CBT committed.

APs who still support PG, you are just "Another Perpetrator(s)" of PG's misdeeds.

May God have mercy on all of you - PG, GFF, BOD & APs.

Btw, TO is the worst of the APs. Did you hear of his "sandiwara" at last Saturday's leaders meeting. TO "performed" not once, not twice but thrice i.e. at all the 3 sessions by declaring his support for PG.

Why did TO do so? Well he is paid more than RM 10,000 per month, plus his daughter has a scholarship from PG or is it from CC?; December 7, 2008 at 1:49 AM
Anonymous said...: Annoymous @7.10 am you are the same person who posed Annoymous with this message? Obviuosly out to irritate and frustrate people? You are like a broken record player! Nothing better to do?

Today is the Lord's Day it is good to prepare our hearts before the Lord and as we look forward to worship Him with the rest of the Body?

God have mercy on you. If you need to please be original and give your well considered advice instead of playing pranks.; December 7, 2008 at 8:47 AM
Anonymous said...: The Last Straw said:

How can I pretend to sit in the pews, listen faithfully to sermons delivered and spiritual guidance dished out from the pulpit and not be affected by asking pertinent questions like: -

Is this message for all or are there some elective and selective "privilege" exemptions?
Is today's message another attack on me and some others who have just taken a stand on present issues on a transparent Church governance?
I must faithfully follow what is preached from the pulpit and be Christ-like and do not believe or turn a deaf ear or perhaps "close one eye" to all the deceits hurt pain and transgressions inflicted upon the voting members and non-voting members young and old christians and not forgetting the new believers too.

Too many bad things have taken place and we are unabashedly the laughing stock of the wider christain community inside and outside our country. I now appeal to all - be responsible and do not permit more "dirts" to be hidden under the rugs.

Thank you to all those who are open enough to share testimonies of their past treatments as well as that important area of the rotten financial management (bad stewardship biblically speaking)
Remember that sharing of old wounds is not an act of jubilation as the ones revealing the stories have been carrying the pains for a long time. Let the doubters stop seeking proofs.

I now go back to my own testimonies about defending the leadership blindly as I already told you that I refused to believe the stories told by christain friends (some of them old calvarites) and considered them to bad-mouthing PG and first-lady.

I used to belong to the category of "Ignorance is bliss" I share this to remind anyone who do continue to find surfing this blogspot affect his/her sense and sensibilities, it might be for your own good not to read this blog so that others will not have to read of your hurt etc while totally ignoring the hurts and pains of many who wish to share bad experiences.; December 7, 2008 at 9:41 AM
Anonymous said...: Today SP made an announcement about 'releasing' the CIM funds to Calvary Church missions.

If you have paid attention to the words he used, you would discover a classic lie.

He talked of funds from friends, organisations, churches, etc. BUT DID NOT MENTION 1.9M from Calvary Faith Promise.

So, subtle. Innocent and ignorant worshippers would think he is very generous.

But, in actual fact, he is so cunning. Chose to tell the very nice part and yet covered the truth.

In the first place, most fund came from Calvary Church faith promise -1.9m and little from all the parties he mentioned.

His announcement amounts to all funds came from outside Calvary Church and 'out of a generous heart' he released them to Calvary Church missions for his evangelistic ministry.

Can you see the deception here?; December 7, 2008 at 4:43 PM
Anonymous said...: which just shows that PG is not at all repentant for what he has done...he is still a proud man that does not deserve to remain as Senior Pastor of Calvary Church; December 7, 2008 at 5:03 PM
Anonymous said...: So finally PG announced at this morning's 2nd service in DH that the CIM funds have been "RELEASED" to CC missions. He announced it so fast and many must have thought it was part of his introduction to his sermon.

Personally, I didn't sense a tinge of REMORSE, APOLOGY or REPENTANCE at all. He said the money received by CIM did not only come from CC Missions but also from his friends, churches and other Christian organisations. In short, he RELEASED the CIM money out of the "GENEROSITY" of his heart.

PG did not say CIM RETURNED the money that CC Mission gave CIM all these years. He merely said CIM RELEASED the money to CC Missions. Even at this hour, he still thinks he is doing CC Missions a big favour by RELEASING money, including what CIM received from his friends, churches and other Christian organisations.

What do we understand by "RELEASE"? It means CIM is allowing us to use the money, just like a bank RELEASES money to a borrower to use. In the case of a bank, a borrower has to repay the money.

In PG's context, I'm still wondering what he meant. He's so sly and it's very difficult I must admit to read his mind. Is he subtly telling Calvarites that CIM is GIVING US THE MONEY OUT OF THE GENEROSITY OF HIS HEART?

Any views out there?; December 7, 2008 at 5:10 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi Money Accountability,

Once upon a time there was indeed a Deacon in charge of the Human Resource Committee, but he had no committee member. He talked to PG and PG talked to him, and in between the salaries are "finalised". But the deacon is no longer on the BOD, so he's no longer the deacon in charge of Human Resource Committee. This much I know.; December 7, 2008 at 5:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Beloved Brothers and Sisters of CCKL,

Ps. Kelvin here from Johor Bahru. With the recent turn of events, many of you are still not satified with the fact that CIM has returned the money. You are still shouting-out for justice and possibly... blood. Such "Spiritual Traumatic Experince" would require loads of time for "Holistic Healing". Thus, let us now look-forward towards that healing. Let us decide and desire today for the Lord's healing.

3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin T.L. Lim; December 7, 2008 at 5:39 PM
Anonymous said...: To Simpleman, you are indeed brilliant. I used to work in the loans dept and indeed what you say is true. When all documentation is completed, the bank will RELEASE the loan to the seller. The money will be debited to the borrower's loan account which he/she must service an instalment monthly or whatever way as agreed between the bank and borrower.

Now SP is too sly to discount the fact that he is using this term with possible intention similar to the bank's case. He RELEASE the money (loan)to CC missions,and CC mission will pay monthly, half yearly or yearly repayments back to him. This will make all the transactions (transfer of money)from hereon LEGAL. They will take the money back from CC mission in small amounts (instalments) so no one will question or suspect anything.

We really have to make sure the Missions Committee and BOD are no more SP's yes man only. He is still free to carry out his manipulative tricks.; December 7, 2008 at 5:43 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Pastor Kelvin,

Would you like to come back to Calvary and work as our "Restoration and Healing" Pastor. We are looking forward to new Pastors in Calvary Church. We also want to know what it feels like to have real caring pastors.
We want to experience what it feels like to ... for once, receive and not just give, give and give.

This morning SP quoted from Paul in Cor. He asked - "God loves a ...(what) giver?"

Some around me responded "cheerful".

But I was shocked to hear him say..."God loves a GENEROUS giver."

Pas. Kelvin, don't just ask us to "now look-forward towards that healing. Let us decide and desire today for the Lord's healing." Come back and help us, teach us, guide us, lead us, show us - we are not the shepherd, we are the sheep.; December 7, 2008 at 5:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Ps Kelvin, no one is asking for blood.all we want to see is humility and true repentance from our senior pastor, but sadly, this is not happening. so what if he releases back the funds that CIM took illegally from CC? He is still unrepentant and has not changed any of his old ways.do we want to have such a man continue leading our church? in short,no.pls do keep CC in prayer that truth and righteousness will indeed prevail and that PG will repent.; December 7, 2008 at 6:01 PM
Anonymous said...: sorry this is gonna be reallly really long...

many think that with the.. 'release' of the funds from CIM to CC, everything's settled.

therefore, i dun think everything's settled. what about the spiritual side of things? and why is everything about money? :( why?!

i was so shocked today to see 4 different coloured envelopes in the pews today. i have not been in calvary a while that's why i was pretty startled.

friends, i was especially startled
to see an envelope that says 'pray and fast contribution' or something like that. i heard that apparently during prayer emphasis week, when one fasts, the money used to pay for the meal can be contributed to CCC.

CCC? i choked. if you refer to previous comments, you perhaps can decide whether you still want to continue supporting it or not.

personally if i were to be fasting and if i want to contribute my meal money - i'd rather sponsor a child through some Christian organizations or donate to other causes.

that's why, is it over? i dun think so.... i dunno about you, but i'm thirsting for a genuine love in calvary. a genuine love that reaches to the members and to the community, to the needy. that is the cry of God's heart! if you love Me, feed My sheep. have we been really feeding His sheep??? i feel pretty upset after knowing that all my money that i've given so far was mainly not for the community and outreaches, but for 'other' purposes. man, who are we feeding with our finances?

1 cor 13:1
1If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

i'm amazed - how can PG pray with such compassion for the landslide victims, yet, does he have compassion for the sheep? does he not know what's happening in the church? does he not know that most of the members out there are hurting?

how can i listen to someone who does not walk the talk?

it was such a tough service to attend. my respects to the TTG group who still faithfully attend sunday service and various activities. God sees your hearts! thank you for your perseverance!

i'm rather disturbed with today's message. perhaps i was listening to it with some scepticsm, perhaps i'm just trying to pick on every word. but there were some parts that truly ached my heart. was it really a message preached out of love or was it just clanging cymbals?

PG said that faith is build on a generosity in relationship with Jesus and used the example of the woman breaking her alabaster perfume and giving her best and her all to Jesus.

you did not mention money. yet with the so many years in CC, i realised that it's yet again another 'give $$' message in disguise. i realised over the years in calvary, i've been so 'brainwashed' (for the lack of a better word) to give, give and give of my finances, else i will feel super condemned because i'm not giving. such... subtlety!

i personally believe that a generosity in relationship with Jesus first and foremost comes out of love for Him. without love, my generosity and faith is nothing!

1 cor 13:2, 3
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Jesus told Peter, "if you love Me, feed My sheep!" i believe that when Jesus said 'feed My sheep', He meant more than physical needs, He also meant spiritual and emotional needs. and that can be as simple as accompanying a friend who might be going through hard times. it's more than just money - but also one's talents and time.

PG also said somewhere along the lines that if we do not have faith, we will not profit and have no blessing.

i feel that it is such a subtle condemnation and i couldn't agree with what PG said. that was a statement that really disturbed me.

to some people tat statement could sound as if God is such a legalistic God, i.e. oh, if you dun have faith in Me, i'm not gonna bless you. if you have faith in Me then only I will bless you.

i'd have perceived it this way but thank God that i've learnt that the God i serve and love is a merciful and loving God. i learnt that even though at times my faith is shaky or maybe not as 'big' as some people, God has not withhold His blessings and love and mercy from me. sure i might have missed out on things that He has in store for me due to my lack of faith BUT i never felt condemned when my faith is shaken, because there is NO condemnation in Christ Jesus. and i thank God that instead, through those trials He strengthened my faith.

hebrews 11:6 (NIV)
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

(The Message)
It's impossible to please God apart from faith. And why? Because anyone who wants to approach God must believe both that he exists and that he cares enough to respond to those who seek him.

unless someone can enlighten me, i do not see any statement of 'no blessings' from this verse. but i'm also not saying that we can have no faith. i just feel that the way this concept was portrayed in a very legalistic manner. John 11 is a lovely story of Jesus' patience with Martha's lack of faith and His love for his dear friend Lazarus. but it didn't sound like that to me today.

perhaps i might have misinterpreted what PG was trying to convey. my apologies for that. i'm just sharing how i feel after listening to today's message.

whatever it is, i'm thirsting for genuine love. thirsting for a shepherd that will care for his flock. thirsting for a shepherd whom i can trust and respect and learn from.

1 peter 5:1-4
To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away.

dearest, sweetest Jesus, i thirst for Your love in this desert!; December 7, 2008 at 6:10 PM
Anonymous said...: oops. wrong conjunction in my 3rd paragraph. it should be:

"but, i dun think...."

sorry...; December 7, 2008 at 6:12 PM
Anonymous said...: I have been kept informed tt no announcement was made at DP regarding CIM funds being "released" to CC Missions. Can someone from the satellites enlighten?; December 7, 2008 at 6:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Simpleman, could it be that when PG announced this morning that he "released CIM funds to CC Missions", he was appealing to Calvarites to release him from the many "charges" against him. He could also be alluding to his release from the gaol.; December 7, 2008 at 6:32 PM
pshn said...: CLIP OFF THE WINGS OF CCC AND SOAR TO A NEW SPIRITUAL HEIGHT!!

The roof of the CCC opens and close in shape of two wings of a Cherubim
It is as magnificent but do we really need them??
It costs – RM 3 million per wing, I estimate, to have them

But if you clip the wings you save RM 6 million of YOUR MONEY!!
CALVARITES DO YOU HEAR ME. RM 6 million of YOUR MONEY!!
And the money can go to help Pastor Tony and Christine Phang.
You don’t know them? Shame on you! (jokingly)

They are our own home-grown missionaries who are serving in Africa.
From what I hear, THEY HAVE BEEN DROPPED FROM THE SUPPORT LIST OF THE MISSIONS DEPARTMENT(which means due to PO) because CC (which means PG) insisted that Pastors Tony and Christine acknowledge ONLY the name of Calvary Church in their ministry.

But Pastors Tony and Christine Phang told CC(which means PG) that other organisations are also assisting them, and to be fair to them they should also acknowledge them too. BECAUSE IN AFRICA THINGS CAN GET REALLY BAD AND SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO GET WHAT YOU NEED WHEN YOU CAN WHENEVER IT IS AVAILABLE!

But the answer was a LEGALISTIC NO!!!!!!

What pettiness!! What Calvary-centeredness!! What AOG-Centeredness!! WHAT REDICULOUSNESS!! What legalism!! What narrow-minded thinkingNESS. It reminds me of the verse in the bible:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Pastors Tony and Christine Phang are doing a great work as missionaries in Africa. They teach local pastors regularly in batches and send them into the periphery to help start churches and to spread the gospel.

They also minister to the TRAUMATISED BREASTLESS AFRICAN WOMEN who were raped in their youth & had their breasts cut off. The culprits do to ensure that breast feeding is impossible and any babies they have will die and the tribe will slowly die away (they cannot afford artificial milk and it may not be available) ; and the pepertrators do not kill these women because they want to rape them again and again at their convenience.

Pastors Tony and Christine Phang also reach out to people with AIDS and they have two teenage children. This dangerously exposes them and their children to AIDS.

CALVARY CHURCH, which also means ALL YOU CALVARITES OUT THERE , HAVE MADE THE DECISION NOT TO SUPPORT Pastors Tony and Christine Phang. This is because you are all responsible for giving finances which goes to support PO and PG, and you elected the BOD who employs PG and PO who appoints the Missions Committee WHO TREAT OUR MISSIONARY THIS.

May I make a suggestion. REVERSE THE ROLES!!!!

SEND PO & PG & B0D & THE MISSIONS COMMITTEE TO AFRICA TO DO WHAT PASTORS TONY AND CHRISTINE PHANG DOES AND FLY PASTORS TONY AND CHRISTINE BACK TO CALVARY (on business class) AND LET THEM SIT AS THE MISSIONS COMMITTEE TO DECIDE ON WHAT FINANCIAL SUPPORT TO GIVE FOR PG, PG2, PO, BOD AND THE MISSIONS COMMITTEE IN AFRICA WHILE THEY PEER AT THE BREASTLESS WOMEN OF AFRICA!!!!

I am sure, when they come back, they will be a little more compassionate!

Now I got a much more edifying testimony to tell you. In Cambodia, there is an orphage run by a church known as FGA, Kuchai Lama. They have run it for about 20 years now and the Government there has been very impressed by the work. Not many years back, a team from the Anglican Church, Singapore came by, studied the needs and decided to buy an adjacent piece of land and built a Girl’s Wing for the orphage.

WHO’S NAME WAS GLORIFIED??!! FGA, KL??!! ANGLICAN CHURCH, SINGAPORE??!! THE TWO CHURCHES COULD’NT BE BOTHERED IN THE LEAST. THE CHILDREN WERE MINISTERED TO. THEIR NEEDS WERE MET. THEY ARE TAUGHT ABOUT JESUS !! AND JESUS’ NAME IS LIFTED UP HIGH!! THAT’S ALL THAT THEY WANTED.

AND CALVARY WANTS ONLY ITS NAME TO BE GLORIFIED.

And our two faithful home -grown missionaries are no longer with Calvary.

Is that a testimony you CALVARITES want??!! But that is the reputation you got. Because those are the leaders you yourselves brought into power – PG, PO, BOD, Missions Committee. And that, I sorry to say, is how they work. They simply don’t know any other way. It is just really sad.

Don’t you think that it is about time the CC changes??
But I told you before. In order to bring about a change you must be brave enough to do something you have never done before. Like for example:

Stand up and say something!!
Vote for a change in the constitution!!
Vote for a change in the Leadership!!
Make your leaders bring back Pastors Tony and Christine Phang.
Take away business class air travel and give the money to support Pastors Tony and Christine Phang’s Ministry !!

CLIP OFF THE WINGS OF CCC AND SOAR TO A NEW SPIRITUAL HEIGHT!!; December 7, 2008 at 6:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Thirsting for love,

Yes, PG has lost his love for his sheep because he has found a new love (up to you to you guess what) elsewhere.

I can imagine him humming the tune of "Please Release Me", made popular during his era.; December 7, 2008 at 6:38 PM
Anonymous said...: Of course I remember Tony and Christine Phang. For many years they were our only home-bred missionaries in the true sense of the word.

The manner they were used and dumped aches my heart each time their names are mentioned. Tony and Christine Phang, if you are reading this blog, I salute both of you for your sacrifices and dedication to our Lord. Our Lord knows how to reward both of you. He'll not be mocked.

The sad case of Tony and Christine Phang is a classic example of PG's "use and discard (dump)" policy.

Pshn, are you serious or joking to suggest that PG and GFF trade places with Tony and Christine Phang? I really really can't imagine PG wearing designer-label suit and shoes, and GFF carrying LV handbag in the outback of Kenya. Thinking of this unthinkable swap makes me lose my appetite for dinner. Forget it, I will not be able to eat. Anyway, Pshn, I know what you mean.; December 7, 2008 at 6:56 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi Kelvin TL Lim

I can't address you as Pastor. You are also one of those AOG Pastors who are ...REAL, REalistic and irrelevant.

You are shallow in thinking giving back money settled everything. Are you a disciple of Christ or Prince Guneratnam?

God is not after the CASH but the CHARACTER. Problem with CASH in CIM is manifestation of a FLAWED CHARACTER.

His character does not befit him as a Pastor anymore. If you follow him, likewise you are not a Pastor. Too real..too realistic and irrelevant to be one. God wants TRUTH (not real), HOLINESS (not realistic) and KINGDOM GOVERNANCE (not relevant).

Please go back to Bible school..the Kingdom one (not the relevant one); December 7, 2008 at 9:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Simpleman

RELEASE..What a word? It sounds good to the ears of many gullible worshippers in CC.

A preacher of 40 years can be this crafty. He can be good in words calculated to mislead, to create good psychology and make himself how much an angel.

If RELEASE is to be true, it got to be a case where funds from overseas must be so huge that 1.1M can be released back to CC missions. No wonder it leads many people to speculate Prince thru CIM must have many CIM accounts overseas. When you have himself, his wife and his son as Directors of CIM, all kinds of possibilities can happen. What can Pas Peter, Aric or Philip do when any 2 directors will do!; December 7, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Pastor Examiner,

What right do you have to ask a pastor to go back to Bible school. You are rude n you are IRRELEVENT. The prob with you is you have FLAWED CHARACTER. Your character does not befit you to be a Christian (If you are) anymore.

See you don't like the way that sounds don't you. Please be more refine. Thanks.; December 7, 2008 at 9:57 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear pshn

You said well that you gave to God and not to organised church.

As Christians, we give to God's work where there is need. New testament teachings do not make tithes legalistic.

In fact, we are the temple of God. All our monies are for God's work. Meeting the needs of your spouse, your children, your loved ones and the 'unloved ones' are part of God's work.

Be a Kingdom Believer and sow into God's work as the Holy Spirit shows and leads you where the needs are and not where they are misused or abused.

PSHN, you are right that Calvary Church-centredness is not right. Many things CC are doing can be an abomination to God. It's wise for all CC worshippers to be wise, vigilant and discerning. Just as there are many things Harvard U does not teach businesspeople; so, there are many things our Pastors don't teach us.

But thanks be to God as Jesus teaches us in John 14:26 - But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.; December 7, 2008 at 10:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Thank you pshn for enlightening us about Tony and Christine.

For a long time I was thinking about what has happened to them especially the time when there was civil unrest in Kenya and I was wondering why our church leadership kept so quiet and never even prayed for them.

I thought it was rather strange that CC leadership just seemed to be unconcerned at all about our own missionaries there and also the congregation in the midst of such calamities. I suspected something must have gone amiss and sure enough you have confirmed my suspicions.

How very sad that PG, PG2 and PO can be so legalistic and heartless to their own people and by making use of sincere and humble servants of God who have faithfully and sacrificially served and only desire to give glory to God. This is SHEER EXPLOITATION! My heart goes out to such genuine & committed missionaries and their children.

Certainly it is time for a SHAKEUP in CC leadership. We desire God's supreme intervention and earnestly ask for a LEADERSHIP CHANGE in CC very soon.

Come Lord Jesus and reign in CC! May Godly men and women who are after Your heart be raised as leaders in CC!; December 7, 2008 at 10:26 PM
Anonymous said...: I wonder what is the real purpose of this blog? An avenue to call each other names, judge one another using scriptures? I am not supporting SP and his actions (be they true or not) but reading all your comments here only tell me one thing that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (including myself). Please look inward before throwing scriptures at one another. Non-Christians are also readers of this blog.; December 7, 2008 at 10:32 PM
Anonymous said...: At the 10:30am service at DH today, PG when introducing his message mentioned something like "If YOU have answered my prayers, I would not in the mess today." He has hit the nail on the head!!! If God had answered his prayers, he and his CIM would not be in such an awful mess today! Need I say more!

He also mentioned that "What brings us out of our adverse circumstances is our faith." TTG and Concerned Calvarites, have faith in your struggles when facing the stonewall and God will do the rest.

Being a sly man that he is, he chooses his words carefully e.g. he used "release". To people who are not fully aware of this debacle, he sounds generous. Arrogant as he is, not a tinge of repentance.

Members can express their opinion and call for his retirement until the cows come home but he will not go gracefully because he has too much at stake in the gold mine of CC, add-in his so-called dependents such as family members, fringe benefits for one or two deacons and APs and voila! how to give up and go.

Can somebody out there enlighten me whether a portion of our church's funds is used to support the overseas tertiary education of maybe a deacon's son or a AP's daughter? I thought that the Church's monies are for God's work.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then again if our shepherd or shepherdess can claim to not knowing what is CBT, what else can is there to say. And "we think of immediately returning the money". These two remarks must be the two best jokes of the year.

On his remarks of changing job, role, position, pastoring, he said "you don't call that retirement. You don't retire." He is confused over the issue. The dictionary defines "retirement" as "leave office or employment esp because of age".(Yeah, now that he and PG2 is over the retirement age as spelt out in the Staff handbook)

No one has called for his retirement from his work for God (if that describes him today), the call is for him to retire as SP of CC. He must heed the calling of the concerned members. Could this be the call from above.

As PG and PG2 is still adamant and have no intention of retiring gracefully, it is time to resort to stronger measures to end this stalemate e.g. whether their tenure in CC is legal or formal charges to the relevant authorities or disciplinary action on misconducts as in the constitution or voted out of office under "vote of no-confidence".; December 7, 2008 at 10:41 PM
Anonymous said...: To : Mirror
Dont be too quick to scold the "Pastor examiner", How can Kevin TL Lim
accused the TTG by saying that , the TTG is after the blood? Can a pastor with a gracious heart jump to conclusion and accuse the TTG?

A pastor with fair perspective would not be so bias in his comment.

I felt that lots of pastors had forgotten thier bible school training but instead they are only a pastor in their profession.; December 7, 2008 at 10:58 PM
Anonymous said...: Mr.Question...oh,don't be worried abt non-christians reading this blog.I am a christian and already turned off by PG and his evil ways. So let's worry abt that first shall we.; December 7, 2008 at 11:04 PM
pshn said...: To Truth that is out there,

Yes, seems that PG & PG2 does not seem to have any inkling what is mean’t by retirement.
I think he is trying to impress everyone spiritually that he will serve GOD until his dying day
Which is really the same for all of us.
PG & PG2 don’t seem to understand that the 60 years dateline given in the Staff Hand-book is with regards to his service in Calvary.
After he retires from Calvary, he can go ahead to do whatever he wants for the Lord
And we certainly will wish him and his wife well.; December 7, 2008 at 11:11 PM
Anonymous said...: Mr. Question,

After reading this Blog, I must agree with you that
you are absolute right. Calvary Today is now being used as a platform for people with bluff-names to attack the Church and Christians using slanders. Now Pastor Kevin TL Lim is under attack. There is no respect for God's people here.

I agree with you that "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."; December 7, 2008 at 11:34 PM
pshn said...: SOLDIERS OF THE LORD CALVARY MUST NEVER FORGET

CIM is now a milestone in the history of Calvary Church
It symbolises mismanagement in church
It will remind us forever to be ever diligent
To always have adequate check and balance
But more importantly
To employ only godly SP’s
And to never have a ‘yesman’ BOD

Calvarites will never again forget
That it is they who elect the BOD
Who in turn employs the SP
What a important responsibility?
Elect the wrong BOD
And you may have a long term association
With an SP that you just cannot break loose from!

CALVARY, PLEASE REMEMBER TWO SOLDIERS OF YOURS WHO FELL IN BATTLE

Pastor Susan Tan & Sister Lee Kooi Ping

Pastor Susan Tan was Calvary’s Children’s Pastor
and Missionettes Pastor for MORE THAN 20 years.
She was such a lovely Pastor with such a sweet spirit.
She was dedicated and the children easily related to her.

All the parents of all those children were also blessed
She helped the parents bring up the children for the Lord

But alas, some years back she fell while in service of the Lord.
She was deeply wounded by the words of PG or PG2 or both
It was in relation with her disciplining the grandson of PG.
She left Calvary.

Did any one console her?
Did any one speak to PG and PG2?
Did any one speak to BOD
Even though little could be done here.
If you did’nt, then you are part of the system that allows good people to leave.

And you allowed not-so-good people to stay
Just because of a tiny tiff over someone’s grandson
This another way the church wastes money
The priceless & experienced are coerce to leave
And replaced with someone of dubious capability.
This is poor human resource investment
With much negative returns.

When people invest poorly ,
Who loses??
Calvarites???
Naaw! It is stolen from God’s house. Your tithes are given to HIM!

Sister Lee Kooi Ping,
Was a lovely Sister that I had the opportunity to work with before.
Dedicated, honest, her yes is yes and her no is a no,
Unlike many leaders
She is in-charge of managing a major Bank’s properties
Nationally and internationally,
Sadly, she was not a part of the CCC Building Committee
She could have contributed so much
And could have saved CCC a lot of money and time

But then you know, the Calvary (PG’s) Culture
Which does not accept any one who speaks their mind.
And then, sure enough, one she she fumbled, trying to help Calvary
Alas, she committed the unforgivable “sin” in the EGM
She spoke up against the twin wings that closes the roof of CCC.
She only wanted to warn the church
The wings are expensive
And they are even more expensive to maintain
She just wanted to save CCC some money
Which perhaps could have been used for some better purposes,
Like helping the widows, the orphans and the abused mothers.

Too late to withdraw,
PG was annoyed
And she was ostracised and removed from serving
And for no apparent good reason.

She was not allowed to do what she loved to do most -
To teach the word of God in the home fellowship

By being asked to interprete PG’s sermons to the Chinese Service.
What a heart rending torture this was.
Especially when she was asked to interprete PG’s sermon
In which the walk is not the talk
The last straw

So now she’s gone.
Where? ............I wish I knew.

But you all should know where these two are!
They were part of the same Lord’s army as you.
In the same Calvary Regiment as you.

If you don’t know where they are, at least REMEMBER THEM, in your prayers,
Pray that they will come back and stand at their original posts.
When PG & PG2 are gone

May the Lord allow some of our simple dreams to come true! AMEN.; December 7, 2008 at 11:38 PM
Anonymous said...: Ps. Kelvin

With due respect, I don't agree with your comments. You said ... "with the recent turn of events many of us are still not satisfied with the fact that CIM has returned the money and that we are still shouting out for justice and possibly blood".

We never shouted out for blood ... only truth, transparency and accountability. Unless you attended CC AGM and EGM you cannot begin to understand what is happening. You are no longer in CC so you cannot fully feel the hurt, betrayal and pain we are going through. We are waiting for healing and restoration but it can only happen when the "wound" has been cleansed and dead skin cut away. Healing cannot begin when the wound is still festering and oozing with filth.

Please dont make us out to be like a wrecking ball, bent on destruction. You have to be here in CC at all times, attending every service and meetings before you can fully comprehend the true goings-on within CC. We are doing all that we can, including prayer and fasting so please dont say we are out for blood. You stand corrected.; December 7, 2008 at 11:39 PM
Anonymous said...: I remember Pastor Kelvin TL Lim used to get such a warm reception in this blog when he did not contradict the words/position of some of the participants of this blog ... how things have changed. By just giving a sincere observation, he has not become the target of abuse. How sad!

I don't think Kelvin has changed his position only that he has rightly pointed out that we must acknowledge what has happended as positive (monies being given back to Calvary Church by CIM) and continue to find ways move forward. This is fully agree with him unlike some bloggers who could do with more Christian grace and Christ-likness over some of the issues which the church is struggling over. In fact someone did commented earlier if some of these bloggers are even Christians or not ...; December 7, 2008 at 11:45 PM
Anonymous said...: To All,

Don't jump into any conclusion on anything you read.

Be Wise. God gives us wisdom to check thoroughly on both sides of the stories and check with the right people with facts, not hearsays or gossips.

As a Christian - Be Wise!; December 7, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Without so much as an explanation or a preamble PG announced this morning that CIM has RELEASED the funds to CC. How magnanimous! How positively philantrophic! No mention at all of seed fund and yearly input from missions dept. Just gifts and offerings from friends, churches& other organizations. To "individuals they can trust" as his dear wife said on Saturday.

To quote GFF ... "now that all money has been returned and there is zero balance, the matter is closed" .... I have a question - IS IT????; December 8, 2008 at 12:11 AM
Anonymous said...: To Discernemnt Needed

After a long long observation, I feel the same way as you as to their reactions.

This is how they play -

(1) they praise you when your words and position are in line with theirs; and

(2) they attack you when your words and position contradict theirs.

They just want a Yes from you, not your fair opinion.

Truth? forget it!; December 8, 2008 at 12:14 AM
Anonymous said...: hi hi anonymous and discernment needed

dont be a sour grape lah, readers here know and understand what is discussed in this blog..

the readers too know what is truth and what is false lah, since 'discernment needed' , u claimed to be one, please pray and discern instead of quarrelling lor..god bless u and join TTG for your betterment...; December 8, 2008 at 12:54 AM
Anonymous said...: To all you Anonymous/es,

We know you are trying your best here to discredit this blog. Please remember, we are products of our Senior Pastor, The Senior Pastor's Wife and Associate Pastors who have taught us the Bible all these years. If we are deemed to be un-christian, then you must know what our teachers in church have taught us - to be un-christian. Just like them, we also can only accept people who are for us and not those who are against us. We are just doing what we see our Pastors do every week. They don't like TTG, they call them malicious. The TTG members still continue to be couteous to them. Pas. Kelvin come here and accuse TTG members, "You are still shouting-out for justice and possibly... blood." When people correct him, you say we un-christian. So Pastors can go around accusing the sheep of being malicious and seeking "blood" and we sheep must smile and accept and apologise for things we did not do. Pastor's scold people, they are acting in love, they steal money and tell lies, they are protecting the church and serving God. We members ask for fairness and we are being un-christian.

Please Lord, where is Justice?; December 8, 2008 at 12:56 AM
Anonymous said...: This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.; December 8, 2008 at 1:37 AM
Anonymous said...: pshn mentioned two persons. Please add wonderful soldiers like Billy Tan (one and only evangelist in Calvary Church), Tony & Christine (one & only Missionary couple earlier mentioned by you), many many others now found in SIB, DUMC, FGA, etc.

Latest, many TTG members just 'used and discarded' without further notice. Check with Pastors Raymond and Timothy for more details.

Calvary Church's style is no difference from our dominant ruling political party..former law minister SACKED without being called to explain and SACKING can't be appealed.; December 8, 2008 at 1:52 AM
Anonymous said...: How come many of the bloggers still don't realise those who now and then call for more christian grace and love to be shown are those who are not happy with the way things are in the church and are seeking for changes as well. The difference is that they are merely saying that we should be less vicious and condemning. We (including me) are not closing our eyes to what's happening. There are many ways to skin the cat ... the vicious and condemnation (all the time) approach is something many of us are uncomfortable with.; December 8, 2008 at 8:40 AM
Anonymous said...: FURTHER RELEASE, TTG, CT and all,

I hope when you comment on the blog, you will not speculate but give cold hard facts.

You wouldn't like it if I say TTG members want to take overthrow PG because they are stingy and selfish with their money, right?
*Sorry for that comment, just an example*

Imagine how much TTG's reputation will be tainted by SPECULATION and BASELESS OPINION. Like wise to SP reputation. CT please be aware of such comments and act accordingly.; December 8, 2008 at 9:49 AM
Anonymous said...: pshn wrote:

"From what I hear, THEY HAVE BEEN DROPPED FROM THE SUPPORT LIST OF THE MISSIONS DEPARTMENT(which means due to PO) because CC (which means PG) insisted that Pastors Tony and Christine acknowledge ONLY the name of Calvary Church in their ministry. But Pastors Tony and Christine Phang told CC(which means PG) that other organisations are also assisting them, and to be fair to them they should also acknowledge them too. BECAUSE IN AFRICA THINGS CAN GET REALLY BAD AND SOMETIMES YOU NEED TO GET WHAT YOU NEED WHEN YOU CAN WHENEVER IT IS AVAILABLE!

Now, this is an issue which if true reflects badly on our church since this is surely not what God would have done! And if indeed that's the reason why we drop them from our Mission Support List, we should either find ways of directly supporting them or get the church to reinstate them onto the Mission Support List.

But first we need to find out/confirm the facts and then act accordingly. Sometimes there are more than one side of the story, neither side all right or all wrong - we need to hear both sides and then make up our minds by hearing what God wants us to do.; December 8, 2008 at 10:33 AM
Anonymous said...: Moving forwards

Thank you bloggers for reminding us we are irresponsible about those who served faithfully in Calvary Church but now dropped for reaons best known to PG, BOD, Missions Committee, AP etc.

Susan Tan + her able co-workers like Weng May, YSL, Viva
Lee Kooi Peng
Billy Tan (+ his wife Lyn who used to sing so beautifully)
Tony + Christine Pang

We were not told the reasons for their 'leaving us'. This is an area we lack TRANSPARENCY

I for one want to say sorry to these people and to thank them for their great contributions.

As for Tony + Christine, they are still in the ministry and we can support them (those of you who are withholding Missions offerings, Faith Promise etc) can contribute directly to them........

will someone out there give us their contact (email if possible) so that we can become our own Missions directors?

JL; December 8, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Anonymous said...: I was indeed very encouraged by this morning's devotion from Daily Bread entitled "Here Comes The Boss!" The text is from Joshua 7: 16-22 and key verse 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." I thought it is very relevant to our present situation in CC so I like to share it here.

The writer states:
" Trying to hide from others when we've done something wrong comes naturally. We may feel guilty, but our desire to avoid admitting our responsibility is often stronger than our guilt."
The writer then went on to tell the story of Achan and how God dealt with Achan and his family.

She explained further "We may not understand why God dealt so harshly with Achan's sin, but we do know He was instructing His people in His holiness and their need for obedience to His commands (Ex 20:17)
If you have been disobedient, it's time to come out of hiding. God is lovingly calling you and offering His cleansing, forgiveness and restoration."
-Anne Cetas

"O Lord, help me to come to You
When I would rather hide my sin;
Give me the courage to confess
So I can be made clean within" --Sper

Quote : Confession is the key that opens the door to forgiveness.

May God help all our Pastors and BOD and all of us inclusive to have truly repentant and obedient hearts. OUR GOD is an awesome, HOLY and RIGHTEOUS GOD! Amen; December 8, 2008 at 11:09 AM
Anonymous said...: Hi " Further Release"

You really intelligent, its true, release 1,( cim money) first for yesterday sunday. i read someone said the bloggers speculating! huh, unfortunately, the speculation was in fact invented and created by PG himself, he chose to use the word 'release'. And bearing in mind that he also admitted at the EGM, he had got 2 accounts in CIM, 2 overseas, 1 in Swiss( this one, you can check with his son if u don believe), so, he is yet to 'release' more money.

and btw, i also want to add to Kelvin TL Lim's comments, if he think to return the 1.1. mil is ok already, then i should ask him to also contribute 1.1. mil to cc. let see if its ok with him ( he didnt realize that this money is our hard earned money fr. our faith promise); December 8, 2008 at 11:18 AM
Anonymous said...: Our late ex-staff, Joyce Ng, (that time still working in CC) wished to be married in CC was turned down because her husband who is residing in Swisterland is not a
Calvarites. This poor girl had to fly all the way to Swizterland to be married there. If I am not mistaken,Pastor TO jokingly said that if she buy us air tickets, we
will go and conduct the wedding for her. Deep in my heart, I feel very very sad. I pitied Joyce had to carry her wedding gown, and etc etc, all the way there. You
know, she is alone there and all of us cannot attend her wedding and share the joy with her.

Worst of all, when she passed away, her ashes was flown
back to Malacca. CC also never initiated a decent funeral service for her. A pastor from another church conducted the funeral service for her. Jo Tay and Wai Leng went all the way to Malacca. Kooi Ping also went (She knows the
whoe scenario and even had a bad encounter with TO). After everything was over, SAP began to bring this matter up, and everyone seems to blame one another. SAP is like saying that people will blame the church can't even hold the funeral service for Joyce. Pastor TO qucikly stood up to say that he is not aware of it. Whereas our dear Foong Ling protested "TO is telling a lie" because she has issued a notice in the form of a
memo and everyone knows about it.

Later, SAP (I wonder whether she really means it or know)
said, "In future if anyone of u die, you can have your funeral service in church. SAP said this because we all knew that Dr Tong's funeral service held in the
sanctuary. Not everyone attended, I didn't.; December 8, 2008 at 11:53 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Kelvin,

Uncle Winslow here. Most of us I believe appreciate your contributions on this blog, but to allege we "are still shouting out for justice and possibly... blood" is very hurting to us, many of us who are old enough to be your biological parents. You are just an observer, not privy to many of the issues confronting us, and the deep hurt and abuse by the leadership.

The saga is NOT resolved by the mere "RELEASE" of CIM funds to CC Missions, and I repeat "RELEASE" and not "RETURN"... NOT A TINGE OF REMORSE, REGRET & APOLOGY. There are much much more than the $$$, otherwise we're only money-minded. There're bigger issues that need to be resolved, pastor.

As such, I appeal to you NOT to judge us and make such allegations which do not serve to build us up at all. If you are really concerned with the recent turn of events in CC, of which you were part of as a youth and I saw you growing up then, please please refrain from commenting further lest you hurt us further without knowing the REAL issues at hand. If you are keen to know these issues, many of which are very complicated to discuss on this blog, I'm prepared to meet up with you to enlighten you. BTW, my email is somewhere on this blog, otherwise it's winslow.wong@gmail.com. I'll be more than happy to discuss the issues with you over coffee and toast, and if you like, Ipoh Sau Ho Fun, at Ipoh Kopitiam, and of course on me.

BTW, for those of you who are concerned that I may be bashed up, don't worry. Pastor Kelvin may be big but I think he's gentle, not like Goliath. But if you still think security should not be taken for granted, you can join us, not so much for protection but for fellowship and be our witness too.

BTW, I wish to remind my fellow bloggers to be Christ-like in your comments and mind our language, lest we stumble others. For the one or two bloggers who choose to think the bloggers here are non-believers, my humble request is : please stay away lest you will eventually think like us too.

God bless.; December 8, 2008 at 11:59 AM
Anonymous said...: Yes, TO is telling a lie. Foong Ling did issue a a notice in the form of a memo and everyone knows about it.

TO, you are found of "selective hearing" and joke at somebody's expense. I know because I'm an ex-staff.; December 8, 2008 at 12:05 PM
Anonymous said...: I'm totally shocked to read that Tony & Christine were discarded by PG & PO. Many years ago, i asked why the Missions do not update us on their Missions work in Kenya anymore and Shereen W told me that the Phangs wanted to be out of CC to join the Americans brothers because it would be more prestigious and they receive more money. Can Shereen W now please explain the real story?

I have been to Kenya to visit the Phangs and I have personally seen their good work and dedication they gave to the Kenyans. What they did as Missionaries, none of our current pastors will do.

In fact, yesterday, SP shared that he did not know if the beggars in KL still put their hankerchief in front of them when they beg. So what Missions work are they talking about when they don't even notice the poor in our own country.; December 8, 2008 at 12:06 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Totally Shocked,

You mean you believed Shereen W's story-telling. She is like her husband, PW, who shoots off without thinking.; December 8, 2008 at 12:12 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Selective Believer & Totally Shocked,

Shereen W must have heard the story from her husband PW who must have heard it from PG. Well, this is a classic case of spinning a story. The longer and further away you spin, the more distorted the story gets. That's the truth of the matter.; December 8, 2008 at 12:16 PM
Anonymous said...: What a joke for PG to share that he did not know if the beggars in KL still put their handkerchief in front of them when they beg!!!

Of course PG doesn't know. He does not go to places where beggars hang around in Chow Kit, Petaling Street, and the other side of KL which I even doubt whether he knows these places really exist.

He's always chauffered to hotels, posh places and dropped off right at the entrance. Of course he does not see the beggars. And I wonder whether he knows how a beggar on the streets of KL look like. PG, for your knowledge, most of them are foreigners, not Malaysians.; December 8, 2008 at 12:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Poor Ps Tony and Christine...now, if those two ever come back to KL and start a church, I would immediately join their church as I want Senior Pastors who have true shepherds' hearts and are not evil and greedy like PG and his wife.

As for those anonymouses and discernmt needed, pls stop reading this blog if you can't stand reading the truth. Go read the newspapers instead. Thank you.; December 8, 2008 at 12:24 PM
CALVARY TODAY said...: Dear Bros & Sis,

Firstly, we would like to wish all of you "HAPPY HOLIDAYS", with your children, "HAPPY SHOPPING" for Christmas gifts and anticipate a "BLESSED CHRISTMAS" this year.

We also say, "TERIMA KASIH" for many of you who have shared with us your personal views on the existence of this blog in cyber-space. Most of which are very encouraging to us BUT we did receive one or two who have expressed dissappointment with this blog. We apologise to you, if you have been offended by bloggers who have been "carried away" by emotions sometimes.

So, we like to make an appeal to everyone here. Please refrain from making speculations on issues that have been highlighted here and please do not "attack" one another here.

We have deleted some comments which were posted using "Anonymous" and some responses to them. Please do not blog under "Anonymous", although we understand that sometimes it happens when we are new to the blogging process.

Once again, we wish all of you,

"BLESSED CHRISTMAS!"; December 8, 2008 at 12:35 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Calvary Today,
Thanks for yr always wise comments. however, since u r deleting some of the comments under anonymous, can u make it standard and delete all comments posted under anonymous, even those who are posting comments against TTG and this blog, ie Anonymous 12.14pm?
Thanks...; December 8, 2008 at 12:49 PM
pshn said...: FOOD FOR THOT
The retirement age for PG in CC is 60 years
PG’s age is about 65
I have been told he has made a request to extend his service with CC
untill the building of CCC is finished
BOD has accepted (What do you expect?)

I am putting it to you all CALVARITES
That if PG is responsible for finishing CCC,
He will die in office in CCC; December 8, 2008 at 1:05 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear JL,
Here's TP & Christine's Blog:
www.revivalafricaministries.blogspot.com
Go ahead...support their good work. Many of us calvarites do..one way or another. GBU; December 8, 2008 at 1:06 PM
Anonymous said...: Let me explain....

Christians do no live in a goody goody world. Do not imagine everything is goody goody and Christians do not comit crimes.

Christians wants to believe things are fine when they are not.

GOD is GOD. Man is not GOD. GOD's ways are not man's way. Therefore, GOD's ways are reveal to us in the BIBLE.

Many times GOD's wrath on men were revealed. GOD is the same yesterday today and tomorrow. GOD is no debtor to any man or pastor. The bible says if we help the poor, widows and orphans, we have some credits with GOD but HE does not owes us anythinglah.

Christians please lah, don't hide our heads under the sand.

Pastors will also go to jail one lah.

PG and petrified Petrina... be careful... this is your last warning.; December 8, 2008 at 1:31 PM
Anonymous said...: TTG members

Not all Calvarites come to the blog. Take your case far and wide with others. Include this in your 2009 resolution.

Not all Calvarites know the truth of what's going on. They come to church on Sunday and hear messages only. Can you reach out to them. Don't let them be left alone and remain oblivious of the conduct, behaviour, attitude and ways of Senior Pastor and Sister Petrina.

Each week, make a point to see one or two. They need your help. Otherwise, they can remain misled under deception.; December 8, 2008 at 1:48 PM
Christine Phang said...: Greetings from Nairobi! It has come to our attention that we have "appeared" in the recent discussion. First of all, thank you for your kind and encouraging comments.

We are writing to simply clarify the comment that we are supported by an American organization for money and prestige. It is completely untrue. We are not supported in any way by any American organization now or before.

We have always live by faith and God has continue to prove Himself faithful. We are currently supported by 6 Malaysian churches and some friends and family.

Once again, we appreciate your encouraging thoughts.; December 8, 2008 at 1:51 PM
Anonymous said...: After hearing much, I come to the conclusion on why Senior Pastor and BOD are so unwilling to ESTABLISH THE TRUTH COMMITTEE.

Are there a lot of skeletons in the closet?

They rather pay lawyers and accountants to do selective job and convince members they are right and things ok.

It would be beneficial for all Calvarites to do a complete audit of last 10 years accounts on Mission Dept and all extended ministries.

If there is no case, then TTG should rest the case.

Perhaps, it's good for SP and BOD to consider this approach for reconciliation. To SP and BOD, please take a bold step if everything is fine.; December 8, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Anonymous said...: Thank you for being such an inspiration to us all, Ps Tony and Ps Christine...your lives are truly a reflection of God's love for the lost and broken, keep fighting the good fight of faith!

To all commenters who think the comments in this blog is all gossip and hearsay, you can now read for yrselves the kind of lies and half truths that pastors in CC have been telling the members. Shireen Wong, just like her husband has been slandering Ps Tony and Christine's name all this while by saying it was them who wanted out of CC so that they can be supported by American organizations for the money and prestige. What a blatant lie! Shireen Wong, if you are reading this, pls explain yourself as well as apologize to the Phangs for your malicious allegation on them; December 8, 2008 at 2:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi Tony and Christine,

It's obvious that leaders in CC fabricated stories to make others look bad and they look good.

This culture creates a deep distrust among Calvarites. It's common a Calvarite would hear from Sn Pastor/Pastor/deacon about another Calvarite of thing that's untrue. This divide and rule culture persists a long time.

It even happened in the nomination of deacons. Sn Pastor as Chairman of Nominating Committee would say this or that about a nominee and then others in Nominating Committee would drop them. At the end, only the list favored by Sn Pastor would be on the board for members to vote.; December 8, 2008 at 2:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Now that CIM has been deregistered,
we also need the scalp of BODs
and CC Comittees as well.

We will inform their Professional bodies, employers, institutions.

With all their high fi designations
some holding professorship,Managing Directorship.
Exective Directorship, Senior Management of Multi National & International Companies, Ownership of Corprations & Consultants & etc.,

Because of their blind & weak performance, they should be booted from their professions.

Millions of Ringgit have been illegally siphoned and who knows, they will be doing same to their Corporations.

Wonder where they got all their
acrreditation from.
I know some of this accrediation can be bought and with the correct tools and connection, you can even get it for free.

We cant have unprofessional
nincompoops running the BOD & CC Comitteees which resulted the current state of CC today.

We ofen heard messages of "Monkey sees, monkeys do....
This is exactly happening right now.

Let us get them De- registered from their Professions.; December 8, 2008 at 2:16 PM
CALVARY TODAY said...: Please do not be harsh to anyone who is not "directly" involved in this whole mess. We believe that this mess was created by SP & his wife and we must stay focused on asking them to retire from CC gracefully.

Please do not "attack" our dear brothers and sisters whom we believe have also been duped like us. The only difference is, they are still caught in SP's web. Let us through our LOVE IN ACTION and BY GOD'S GRACE try to help them out, maybe slowly but surely.

Do not attempt to do anything that we will live to regret later. The BOD and committee members of church ministries are made up of nice people, many of whom we know personally and still are friends to us today.

Let us spread the JOY OF CHRISTMAS by bringing HOPE AND PEACE to homes and not otherwise.

Thank you and once again 'BLESSED CHRISTMAS!"; December 8, 2008 at 3:00 PM
pshn said...: MOSES IS GOING, BUT WHERE IS JOSHUA?

You just may have beloved PG at CCC
for the next 15 years
Extending beyond Vision 2020

PG should already by retired at 60
The retirement age for Pastors in Calvary Church
He expressed to the BOD that he wanted to stay until CCC is finished
And once CCC is finished PG says he will go (you believe him??)
I hear that he has been extended (don’t know for how many years) by BOD
Good ol’ faithful BOD! I just love them, don’t you???
THEY NEVER DO ANYTHING WRONG, FROM PG’S PERSPECTIVE.

I would have thought it would have been wiser to give PG a yearly contract
That way Calvary Church is in control
That’s how we do it in the secular.
There is a good reason for this.
At the present PG’s pay is extremely high
I hear PG gets RM 25,000 excluding perks
PG2 gets RM15,000 excluding perks

Assuming they live until 85 i.e. about 15 years
Then the church will have to fork out
RM 7million for PG excluding perks and ministerial costs
RM 4.2 million for PG2 excluding perks and ministerial costs

Then again,
Since PG is already 63
How come we have not heard of a succession plan for CC
This succession plan should have started at least 15 years ago
No succession plan?? Rather convenient I’d say!!
We should start asking for a JOSHUA immediately!!
A young Joshua is always less costly to support that an old Moses

CALVARITES WE HAVE A LOT TO THINK ABOUT HERE!!
And maybe also to do.; December 8, 2008 at 3:13 PM
pshn said...: MOSES IS GOING, WHERE IS JOSHUA

Clarification

PG's pay is:RM25,0000 per month
PG2's pay is: RM 15,000 per month; December 8, 2008 at 3:20 PM
pshn said...: Correction

PG's Pay is RM 25,000 per month excluding perks; December 8, 2008 at 3:52 PM
Anonymous said...: I have been blogging for quite a while and I notice CT had delected some bloggers's comments unilaterally and selectively.

If CT does not rrespect that all bloggers have equal freedom of expression, then CT and TTG members do not deserve to call for Truth Committee, because they have biased mindset in the first instance. As TTG supportors, we are not blind followers. We want our freedom of expression to be respected, we do not need to think everything alike.; December 8, 2008 at 4:02 PM
Anonymous said...: The more I read and know, the more I feel that they should go. Go where? To jail!!!

How can we let them continue to do all these terrible things? What a testimony.

Recently I joined a tour to HK and China and I met a nice old retired couple. They were not Christians but when I told them that I was from Calvary Church, they were so angry. Not with me but with our church for having done what she told me. What sort of testimony is Calvary Church giving to the non Christians in town. Fountain head church?

Once we were proud to be Calvarites now we seem to hesitate telling others about us being Calvarites. We have to correct that.

Yes, we dont let non Christians judge us but what if they break the law??? Can they rob the banks, steal from the poor, conduct immoral acts, cheat IRB and let them go scot free? The church may be a place for those who were sinners but not a place where they can continue sinning and gets off the hook.; December 8, 2008 at 4:16 PM
pshn said...: DON’T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR TITHES?

Then help orphans
New Life Care Centre, Port Dickson
Pastor Paul Jegan and Katherine (AOG licenced)
35 children- 5 Chinese, 30 Tamils
Speak English, Tamil & Some Chinese
HP 019 253 5810, 019 263 5810; December 8, 2008 at 5:50 PM
Anonymous said...: I have been wondering for a long time too why there is no succession plan in CC. I figured that out recently with all the latest revelations. PG wants to keep every leader stunted so that he can remain in absolute control.

A visiting matured Christian brother shared with me before that he sensed in the spirit that PG is not a shepherd at heart but the type Jesus described as a hireling.

PG has masterminded everything through the entrenched positions the SP holds in the Constitution. BOD is also in PG's control, APs also in his control, especially for some who have received various favours from PG and sadly, whoever speaks up is either axed or put in cold storage so he or she is freezed to death or quietly whizzed off.

So how to have a Joshua in CC under these circumstances?

However, we believe God is in full control. God has heard our cries and pleas and He will intervene and cause a Changing of the Guard when the appointed time is here! Our God reigns!

We believe God is working eventhough we may not see the outcome as yet. No one can thwart God's plan, it will surely come to pass. It is just the timing so we will persevere and pray for His Hand to move.

Come Heavenly Father, come Lord Jesus, come Holy Spirit... and take control over all the matters in CC.; December 8, 2008 at 5:59 PM
CALVARY TODAY said...: In response to Anonymous 4.02pm and to all bloggers, we wish to inform that so far, we have only deleted comments which are:

1. Malicious or with wild allegations without basis
2. Made a parody of SP's family name or twisting his name or initials
3. Use vulgar, crude or downright unacceptable language
4. Mischievious. One blogger cut and paste entire articles from Berita Calvary and post here as comments.

We believe in the freedom of expression but such freedom comes with a responsibility to be respectful of others. When one person speaks ill of another or make malicious comment of another, that person has violated and abused the right of freedom of speech. We will not condone that. We will ensure that the guidelines set out in this blog are adhered to. If any one feels that our guidelines are not acceptable to you, we would advise that you refrain from participating in this blog.

On the accusation of our being bias, if you care to read through all the comments here and in all the previous posts, you will note that there are many critical comments of the TTG group. We could have easily deleted all such critical comments and leave behind only those comments which praises the TTG group but it does not serve anything. We are not here to gain popularity. None of the TTG members have anything to benefit from all this.

We are, therefore, not adverse to critical comments and we accept them as we believe that everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. However, as we have said many times before, please comment responsibly and be respectful of one another always.

Calvary Today will not make further statements on this issue.; December 8, 2008 at 7:48 PM
pshn said...: PASTORS FALL WITH TWO LEGGED STOOLS

A three-legged stools is stable
Each leg represent an area that has to be intact in the life of a Pastor
The three areas are – girls (morality), Gold (finance) and Glory(pride)
If you fail in any one of these areas
You have a two-legged stool
It is unstable
The stool will fall
Some fail in one or two areas
And some even in three!
Let us pray that we always sit on three-legged stools; December 8, 2008 at 8:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Let's bring back Pastor Susan Tan.
I am sure she is not happy in Glad Sounds, if she is still there.

She has been victimised and she is
so pathetic running Glad Sounds.

I am sure she will come back to CC
and its a pity to see her wasted.

Lets bring back all the staff including the one that was paid half pay just because she has past her retirment.

For the Goodwill of mankind and to celebrate the Lord's birth this Christmas, I wish all of them to
return to CC and wishing them a blessed Christmas to all of them.

Blessed Christmas & A Blessed New Year to all of you.; December 8, 2008 at 8:39 PM
Anonymous said...: There is no point quoting bible verses here and there, if our hearts are full of hatred, without Love and Forgiveness for our Christian brothers and sisters. Your play of verses do not make you more christian than others.

By such conduct, you make yourself more hypocritical!

Meet Jesus face to face in your prayers and dreams and repeat what your say here and let our Lord Jesus judges you.; December 8, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Anonymous said...: pls stop using anonymous. very irritating.and we can only forgive if the person repents,but if he continues on his wicked ways, i think it's naive of u to ask ppl just to forgive and forget and let him continue sinning and misusing his authority. u r the hypocritical one here.; December 8, 2008 at 9:26 PM
Anonymous said...: Wow ... you Christians really know how to fight? In Islam this would have never happened like this. We do not talk about our imam like this. I am inviting my friends to view this blog too. Very very interesting.; December 8, 2008 at 9:54 PM
Anonymous said...: I write annonymously...

If you want a name, my name is Victor Wong. I do not mince my words. I write and say as it is. If you read the BIBLE... you would know what Jesus said. Examples...

Luke 11:39. Now you Pharisees make the outside of the cup and dish clean, bt your inward part is full of greed and wickedness. Foolish ones! Did not He who make the outside make the inside also?...

Can we all who are Christians identify with this? We want to listen to goody goody things and delete another writing whom we think is too hard, too dirty, too impolite, too harsh...etc...

Please don't be a hypocrite. Do we also know that even Prophet Mohammed directs that in the event of a war, hypocrites should be eliminated first and then the enemies.

Christians who are hypocrites are enemies of GOD. Period.

If a pastor lies then he is no more a shepherd. He is a Shepherd in wolves clothings.

PG and Puterified Petrina are examples for all to see but few accepted them to be shepherd in wolves clothings.

Why? We all have the answers but do not want to admit. We prefer to go round deleting comments!

Delete this posting if you want but after you read it OK?

A husbandless wife who stole a tin of milk powder gets 8 months jail term.

A convicted manslaughterer gets 5 years jail.

A abusive employer of a Indon maid gets 18 years.

A senior pastor commiting CBT amounting in excess of RM 1 million continues to hoodwink its congregation and they gladly debate and argue without any recourse on the Pastor. Church staff, deacons, elders resigns but the pastor's position is further entrenched. What is this?

PG and puterified petrina are going to the gaol. period. They should have been in jail yesterday for tomorrow is too late. Am I being too judgemental? Perhaps... but I write without fear cos I also read the bible and GOD is speaking!; December 8, 2008 at 10:02 PM
Anonymous said...: Anuar Ramli,

I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. I discern that you are not who you claim you are. Stop masquerading. In Jesus name. Amen; December 8, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear all,

Do not respond at all to the one who claims he's Anuar Ramli. He's a fake. Don't respond.; December 8, 2008 at 10:16 PM
pshn said...: Anuar Ramli

Do not be perturbed.
Anuar is most likely a christian.
He can't be a muslim because muslims are wiser than to get involved.
In any case, he would know that what is going on in UMNO preently is'nt pleasant.

PLEASE JUST IGNORE THIS GUY. DON'T WASTE PRECIOUS TIME ON HIM.; December 8, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, the so called Annuar Ramli is playing mischief and trying to cause fear and confusion!
BUT we already sense the Mischief!; December 8, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Anonymous said...: Do we realize what is happening...

Easy financial credits are lending us all the financial problems until it collapses under it own weight.

Churches keeps borrowing to built ever larger churchse so that they can claim themselves to be big! The church is no different from the world if we continues to behave like that! The twin tower of Malaysia= CCC ?

Justice are not served because the people who are called to administer them are corrupt. Many corruption are disguised as New Economic policies and few dare to challenge it especially the Christians. These perpretators of corruption continues and Christians continues to pray. God also say that faith must be coupled with works. Please lah.

Churches with corrupt and compromised pastors continues to teach useless spiritual teachings sunday after sunday to its congregation. They ask for offerings in various forms not to promote the Great Commission but their own agendas to built ever bigger churches, bigger salaries, benefits, cars, allowances and other perks.

Pastors and churches promotes a lot of activities in church but little spiritual advancment to their congregation. Members are not getting holier and godlier but more materialistic, heady and arrogant. Datos, Tan Sris ect also comes to church and is recognized and given special treatment by the pastors and sit right in front. A widow without food is disregarded.

Pastors,wife, children live like turks and kings within their little church kingdom. They are treated with such opulence which can bring shame to Jesus.

Pastors buys the latest cars, live in big bungalows, travel first class, eat, dine and wears the best.

Some congregation members earns less than a thousand ringgit a month and has problem paying for their lunches and dinners.

Hello.... there... Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.... he can ride in with a Rolls I believe. Remember HE can change water to wine?; December 8, 2008 at 10:30 PM
Anonymous said...: not only PG and GFF need to resign and leave CC, Pam, Jim, Chris Lee also need to leave...they hv been throwing their weight around as if they're royalty, not caring abt ppl's feelings and acting all pompous and un-christlike. if we were to vote in heads of ministries, these 3 certainly wouldn't be elected as they not only lack the theological background but also a shepherd's heart. Pls leave now..we do not want you to continue ruining the lives of the church members; December 8, 2008 at 10:55 PM
Anonymous said...: When more "Anuar Ramli" come to blog CT and ridicule us, all TTG leaders shall be held accountable for this Blog, this unbearable state of affairs and all the slanders.

NECF and AOG General Superintendant should be held equally responsible for their inaction.

We better stop now before it is too late.; December 8, 2008 at 11:06 PM
Anonymous said...: This Blog is really putting the interest of all Christians in the Country in jeopardy.

Please resolve your differences internally and within your own house.; December 8, 2008 at 11:46 PM
Anonymous said...: Thank you for giving me

TP & Christine's Blog:
www.revivalafricaministries.blogspot.com

I would encourage you to have a peep into what they are doing....what a shame that being ex Calvarites, they are not supported by us. There is something amiss with the way the Missions Committee use our mission collections. The equivalent of 2 round biz-tickets to USA will provide sufficient funds for them to reach out the more needy Africans for at least 6 months.

JL; December 8, 2008 at 11:55 PM
Anonymous said...: Annuar Ramli @ 9.54pm, Anonymous @ 11.06pm & Anonymous @ 11.46,

You are one & the same person. Shame on you & you call yourself a Christian. May God have mercy on you.

If you don't like it, you don't have to blog here; you can go ......; December 9, 2008 at 12:08 AM
pshn said...: Pray and give to
the Ministry of
Pastor Tony & Christine Phang
REJECT MISSIONARIES
OF CALVARY CHURCH
www.revivalafricaministries.blogspot.com; December 9, 2008 at 12:11 AM
pshn said...: PRAY & GIVE
to the Ministry of
PASTOR TONY AND CHRISTINE

MISSIONARIES REJECTED
BY MISSIONS DEPARTMENT OF CALVARY CHURCH

OTHERWISE ACCEPTED BY MOST DECENT CALVARITES
www.revivalafricaministries.blogspot.com

The Missions Department were not impressed with their work
Because their ministry ONLY involves work in Kenya, Africa:

1. TRAINING PASTORS in batches and sending their into the hinterland
to evangelise and to plant churches
2. PEOPLE WITH AIDS
3. BREASTLESS WOMEN
Young and displaced and depressed women
Who were raped
Had they breasts sliced off
Now they can’t breast feed
So no man would want to marry them
They are destitute and suicidal

And they have two teenage children!!; December 9, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Anonymous said...: Agreed with you Don't play play. This is one among many that had tried but failed.

Hey, this blog is unique, don't ever attempt to disrupt. Rotten fishes are smelly. Just park yourself some where else than here.

Good night and God Bless the truly discerning heart.; December 9, 2008 at 12:34 AM
Anonymous said...: Hey Anuar Ramli

You are most welcome to read CT. It is not wrong or sinful to read this blog. Likewise, Malaysian, consisting of more than 50% who are non christian also had all kinds of blogs, they are blog that condemned their leadership in this country who is a non christian mainly.

Its is not wrong for us in calvary church here to raise our concerns with regards to our leadership, wht more, if we christian proclaim to be a God fearing people, all the more, we should lived life to please our Almighty God, likewise, other religion do..

I pray that, you would also pray for us. Thank you and its ok for your friends to read this blog.; December 9, 2008 at 12:56 AM
Anonymous said...: The Last Straw said:

I agree with "Selamat Datang etc" that anyone of other faith most welcome to read this blog if the matters affecting the image and reputation of Calvary Church are of any special interest to others provided that the person(s) concerned must refrain from comments.

I have to recognise that defending CC leadership simply exposed my own ignorance of many improper acts.

You cannot put the "genie" back into the bottle anymore and pretend that the revelations and much of the "dirty" linens washed have no basis.

However,it is still not too late. Do the right thing to put things right.; December 9, 2008 at 8:10 AM
Anonymous said...: From Anonymous 11.46 to don't play play

I am a concerned Christian and I have nothing to do with "Annuar Ramli".

The way you twist the fact reveals your true color.; December 9, 2008 at 8:11 AM
Anonymous said...: Morning fellow bloggers,

Anuar Ramli, if you are really who you claim you are, welcome to Calvary Today. You are most welcome to read our comments but refrain from commenting as the issues discussed here involved our church. You may also invite your imams to read, so that they can also be enlightened.

However, if you are a Christian faking as Anuar Ramli, I rebuke you in the name of Jesus. Shame on you to use such a veiled threat to close down this blog. Don't hit below the belt. Be a real man if you are a man, and a she-man if you are a woman.; December 9, 2008 at 8:19 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Kelvin,

i have known you when you were just a teenager. It's good that you are now serving the Lord. Hope that you will learn from the mistakes of others so that you will always strive to become a better pastor, & not like the pastors of Calvary Church where you grew up. Something had happened to them which had caused them to lose their original vision, goals, purposes in life. Perhaps they are afraid of one man, PG & his wife, perhaps they are too engrossed with trying to please this one sly, ambitious man & his equally ambitious wife, perhaps they are afraid of losing their well-paid, cushy jobs as pastors of Calvary (no other church can pay their pastors so well - imagine earning RM12,000/- per month as an Associate Pastor!), perhaps. Well, whatever the reason, it's between them & God, for which they will have to give an account one day. You can learn from this, Kelvin...it will keep you humble. Humility is a good quality that pastors should have.

By saying that TTG is 'out for blood' is not an accurate assessment of the whole situation. You must know that PG & PG2's attitudes in returning the money show their lack of repentance & their defiance. They returned the money because they have been forced into a corner, but instead of being humble & apologizing to the church AND to the TTG they made it seem as though they are so kind & generous! This is not acceptable. I hope you realize this, & refrain from making such uncalled-for statements in future.; December 9, 2008 at 8:46 AM
Anonymous said...: Do you want to call these so called high shots - professor,CEOs,
Managing Directors, Executive Directors, Consultants,Senior Managements & so called professions & etc.. your Friends?

They are the ones who betrayed us.

They are the ones who caused this
blog and and split of CC.

They are the ones who Boot-Licked and Shoe-Shined.

They are the ones who could not stand up & be firm on their decisions.

They are the ones who are not dignified and do not show their
integrity and conscience.

They got no guts.

They are cowards.

In a war, they will be shot for treason.

Do yo still want to call them your Friends?; December 9, 2008 at 9:06 AM
Anonymous said...: we christians should not fight in the cyberspace.

God save us. Amen.; December 9, 2008 at 9:19 AM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous 11.46,

You said "please resolve your differences internally and within your own house."

It appears that you're not a Calvarite. If so, please refrain from commenting on issues that you have no idea. Whatever it is, you can always pray to God for Truth, Transparency & godly Governance (TTG) to be restored at His House.

If you are a non-Calvarite Christian, would you be pleased that your pastors are committing the misdeeds that PG is committing against His sheep. Are you aware that his LOTTship PG will not hesitate to put his "Legs On The Table" when you see him?

Is that the hallmark of a shepherd? Would your pastor do that? Would you accept that LOTT from your pastor? I wouldn't even accept that from my boss.; December 9, 2008 at 9:39 AM
Anonymous said...: I am also reading this interesting

blog.....; December 9, 2008 at 9:46 AM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous at 9.19am,

Your comment "we christians should not fight in the cyberspace. God save us. Amen."

Please we assured that nobody is "fighting" here. Are you not aware that our God is an omniscient God & an omnipotent God?

As such, can you not consider the comments posted here as "prayers/supplications" to Him? We, Concerned Calvarites, have lost all avenue to bring up the Truth, Transparency & godly Governance (TTG) issues in CC. Pro-PG supporters, who still are blinded or choose to place their heads in the sand (whilst PG places his in the money), are most welcome to pray to God too, by posting their comments here, provided they observe the "house" rules & remember that God is watching us.

Btw, thank you for your prayer "God save us. Amen."
As the BOD & APs have failed us & God, right now we really need God to save us & our church.; December 9, 2008 at 9:50 AM
Anonymous said...: To Annuar Ramli & Muthusamy,

You are most welcome to read & learn from us after all we are a fountain head church for Truth, Transparency & good Governance (TTG).

Hopefully you will be wiser after reading, for "the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom"; perhaps you can stand up against your own leaders, if any, who have such low moral standards.

If you need assistance, please contact our TTG members.; December 9, 2008 at 9:57 AM
pshn said...: WHY IS CALVARY FACING PROBLEMS
LIKE PASTOR TONY PHANG?

It is simply due to poor accountability,
no proper check & balance
And extreme lack of transparency

If the Missions Department (which is PO)
Knew they have to report to the congregation (accountability)
Clearly (transparency)
Concerning the dropping of Ps Tony Phang
from the missions support list
Then I am sure they would not have done it!

WHY?
Because you(True Calvarites) would’ve known about it
And you(True Calvarites) would have not allowed it!

The level of accountability, check and balance and transparency
in Calvary is worse than in the secular world.
I know because I have worked in both places.

TRUE CALVARITES
STOP THE ROT!
RIGHT THE WRONG!

And this cannot be done through the present leadership
Because they are IT (rot & wrong); December 9, 2008 at 10:43 AM
Anonymous said...: People are starting to take notice of this blog. Its going to hurt our testimony for non-believers to see how Christians are no better than anyone else.

We should only allow Calvarites to reply and to even view the blog. Is this possible?; December 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM
pshn said...: Ps
In the secular world
If there lack of transparency, accountability & check & balance
The members will chew you up alive

In Calvary Church
If there lack of transparency, accountability & check & balance
And the members ask questions
The Leadership will chew the members up alive!

You just cannot stop this rot
You cannot right this wrong
The cancer has spread too far
You just have to change the Leadership

TRUE CALVARITES
KNOW YOUR RIGHTS
& STAND UP FOR JESUS
which means - STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS
Pro 2:9 If you listen to me, you will know what is right, just, and fair. You will know what you should do.; December 9, 2008 at 11:02 AM
Anonymous said...: NGO SHELTER needs help to sponsor community schools for Myanmar refugee kids. There is one in Kepong (real close to DP so Calvarites can help volunteer-teaching there) that is waiting for funds to start.

Shelter Community School 3 in Puchong is sponsored by a SMALL church in Puchong. To sponsor such a school requires RM10,000 one-off (and then RM2,500 monthly) for deposit to rent a top floor apartment (cheapest). Top floor is the hottest so air-condition is a requirement during school hours. Tables and chairs for school hours need to be purchased. (Cheap chairs were bought and they broke easily and replacements are needed.) Basic necessities like a fridge, a gas stove etc. are essentials.

The Puchong school feeds and schools about 45 kids and teens (ages 3 -14) Mondays to Fridays 9AM-3PM. Two families live there; they are pastors, teachers and helper-cooks. Some are given an allowance for doing work there. The teacher trainer and other teachers are volunteers. Most of these kids are Christians but some don't really know Jesus yet.

CC was talking to SHELTER but later told SHELTER that there is no fund this year. I believe PG must have frozen funds!

To give to this fund, please contact EVAN of SHELTER: 012-275 4556 or 7955 0663.

Jesus' favorites are the broken ones and the little ones.; December 9, 2008 at 11:25 AM
Anonymous said...: Anyone noticed our Blog counter

is reaching 66 666 ? Let's see who

is that

Now is 66 510. Another 157

comments away.; December 9, 2008 at 12:17 PM
Anonymous said...: On anonymous PCK at 9.39am, it is disgraceful that LOTT can come from PG a man-of-God, our shepard. True! It is a pure disrespect gesture. In my 35 years of work, I have neither a boss who treats me such nor treated my subordinates such.

Just for laughs. I asked two of my grown-up sons at different times "What is LOTR?" Without hesitation, the reply was "Lord of the Rings". I said "In CC, we have LOTT! Lord of the table." "What's that?" they exclaimed. So I explained it's legs on the table by PG. They said that's not right. Forgot to mention that my sons grew-up in CC but now no more in CC.

Btw, Hello to: the truth is out there on Dec 8, 2:00pm. I first used the moniker "the truth is out there" on Nov 22 at 11.19pm in Dr. Lum call it quits. Though you and I are for truth, transparency and governance and have the same aim, I sincerely hope that you will select another moniker. Even this is not an issue, this is to prevent us mixing up our comments and cause confusion to other readers. Thank you.; December 9, 2008 at 12:21 PM
pshn said...: This comment has been removed by the author.; December 9, 2008 at 12:32 PM
Anonymous said...: Absolutely true in CC leadership there is no tansperancy, no accountability and no checks and balances.

In fact there is hiding of truth, lies, cover ups and ratification of wrongs like nobody's business! Why do you think they need criminal lawyers' opinion and forensic auditors' report? Then the supporters tell us show the proof otherwise you are just making allegations! Can you imagine so fierce even when they are wrong?

If the leaders say there is no wrong just step out, face up and tell us that the records are clean show them to us, show and give us the lawyers' opinion and forensic auditor's report?

Why allow lawyer and auditor to speak from stage to members and worshippers during EGM some more mockingly too, when the stage & pulpit area should be only for church worship purposes?

Why PG, PG2, APs and BOD choose to keep quiet and use all means to hide and cover up? Then CIM returns the moneys but PG said instead it is "released" to CC. What lies and fabrication of truth again some more from pulpit!

All the words spoken by PG are carefully chosen and said with expert coaching and after consulting with lawyers so one is not implicated!!You see it is all human wisdom in order to avoid being caught red-handed.

Let us ask ourselves: When one walks in the light there is no fear right? It is only when one walks in darkness then one would be afraid and tend to shy away and hide and to avoid the limelight.

Indeed all members and worshippers must stand up for the truth and exercise our rights to put things right in CC. We shall not be intimidated any longer. God is our Shield and our Protector.

We will judge the Body from within as the Bible tells us to do so. Why are we afraid to speak up for truth? Why do we have to keep quiet even when our leaders are wrong? If we keep quiet then we are just as good as condoning the wrongs.

God has not given us a Spirit of timidity but one of Power and Truth!; December 9, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Anonymous said...: This is the day that the Lord has made. We will rejoice and be glad in it.

The TTG members will be coming together tonight to pray for our church. Do pray along with us, wherever you are that our great and mighty God will see us through all this and keep us strong in our faith in Him. Apostle Paul in writing to the Philippians said this in Phil 1:6, "...that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." We believe that what God has started to do, He will guide us through till His will and purposes are fulfilled.

There are many of you who are very concerned about the kind of testimony this blog is giving to non-Christians. My personal view on this is, we are now asking for Truth, Transparency and Good Godly Governance in the church system. God has revealed to us that there are loop-holes in our current system that does not and should not be at work in the church. We should do what we can to rectify and modify the system. In other words, CHANGE the system. Change is a word “feared” by many, especially when we have been living in a “set” situation for so long. We become “comfortable” in the system. To welcome CHANGE means, we would need to STEP OUT OF OUR COMFORT ZONE and move out in the unknown or uncharted territories. The sound of this is daunting enough for many.

Now for the cause of seeking to establish Truth, Transparency and Good Godly Governance (TTG), in our case in the church system, I believe, our non-Christian friends will have no problem with. TTG has nothing to do with whether we say we are good or not good Christians. TTG has nothing to do with us proclaiming we are being good or bad testimony. It has to do with being a good person, being a good citizen, being a good steward of what God has blessed us with materially, being a good Samaritan to our fellow brothers and sisters in need and the list goes on. So I say again, to the cause for TTG, I believe, our non-Christian friends will find no issue with.

In fact, I believe, that this blog is showing to all readers, Christians and non-Christians alike, that WE CHRISTIANS, DO NOT CONDONE AND WILL NOT KEEP QUIET WHEN THINGS ARE NOT RIGHT. We will not sweep things under the carpet and allow germs and maggots to fester and thrive right under our feet. We face up to our mistakes, admit that we have been wrong and we look for ways to clean up so that those who walk in after us will have a clean environment to work and live in. Again I say, to this cause I believe, if there are non-Christians reading, will also appreciate and agree with.

As for the fighting among ourselves issue. Firstly, I do not see why, some of you say there is fighting here? The only “fighting” I see is when “anonymous(es)” comes in to put this thought here and there, every now and then. I believe I have said this before. I have two children, and they are always “fighting” over words said, and things touched without permission. They seem to have so many reasons to “fight”. I sometimes ask them if they know they have the same parents? But what is the ultimate reason for their fighting? They want my attention. The brother and sisters are not “fighting” here. They just want their earthly “spiritual” father’s attention. So for as long as the “spiritual” father ignores them, it would seem like they are “fighting”. So once again, I invite you to join us in prayer tonight that our Heavenly Father will hear and send us help soon, to resolve all this.

God Bless You All and have a Blessed Christmas.; December 9, 2008 at 1:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Any updates on further actions, next steps, timeframe for these, etc by the TTG committee? It feels like we are just constantly talking, discussing and mentioning the SAME things over and over again. Any updates will provide good constructive discussions.

It would also be good if the committee can constantly update readers on actions being pursued with the respective timeframes so as to keep each and everyone on the loop.

Some ppl might say that PG will have access to steps we are planning to take then BUT if it's god's will and timing for the truth to come out, no sort of "trying to hide" the truth will work.

Therefore, I plead to the committee to please start posting steps/actions being considered and planned, to update us. I believe that if we are all for Truth, Transparency and Governance, everyone should be kept updated. It also allows ppl to provide suggestions and opinions on steps going forward.

I have the upmost respect for TTG committee but this is CC and everyone deserves a say/thought in actions going forward, in my humble opinion.

Just feels to me like I'm in the woods with progress on our revival of CC.

Thanks and God Bless.; December 9, 2008 at 1:35 PM
pshn said...: TWIN TOWERS

TRUE CALVARITES
Are you able to deal with the concrete truth?
Really?
I saw the commentary
On the building of the Twin Towers
They were pouring cement
Into the spaces between the iron grills
They had to do it quickly
You cannot take too long
Why?
Because once the concrete sets and hardens
It is longer malleable

People are like that
When they are young you can mould them
Once too much time has passed
Their character tends to set
And it is very difficult to change them anymore

I hear that PG has celebrated his 40th anniversary of service in CC
Wow! That is a long time for his character to set!
I sure you like his style of leadership, right ?
Well, be assured.
The style can no longer change
You like his style of leadership?
Then you will the most happy person.

If the style has not changed for the last 40 years
Do you think it will change in the next 10?

STOP THE ROT!
RIGHT THE WRONGS ! i

It can only occur if you
CHANGE THE LEADERSHIP !

That was the original rationale for retiring pastors at 60 at CC.
They cannot change their ways
They earn excessively
They just refuse to go.; December 9, 2008 at 1:37 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear 'We Need Updates",

I fully understand your feelings, as we ourselves sometimes feel the same way too. As for Updates or Steps to move forward, we have actually kept you all informed in the 9th Update posted sometime in October. As mentioned, we are as impatient as you all are with regards to this whole saga. As mentioned, we have actually initiated all the plans to move forward as given in the 9th Update. What then are we waiting for? Good question!

We are waiting for God to PUSH us. Contrary to what our church leadership thinks of us, we are really quite reluctant to take any form of action on our side. We are silently hoping that God will in some mysterious way appear before us and walla...it's over.

But jokes aside, please be assured, we heard you today, we will meet tonight, we will pray for wisdom and we will discuss your concern. Please be patient with us and pray for us to hear from God clearly.

I am only speaking on behalf of TTG members. Talking about TTG members, we actually have no membership roll. We are just a group of concerned members who have gotten together, to put our heads together so to speak, to see what God has impressed upon our hearts to do at a specific time. So from the first meeting with Bro. HM, we have had people join us in our discussions and ran along with us. Some have stopped, some have taken leave, some continue to run. So that's who we are. As I was saying, I am only speaking for this group of us. As we have said, after the EGM, it is a free for all thing. We have no idea what other people are doing or have done. If you like to contact any of us, please write to Calvary Today's email. The administrator on duty will direct your mail to the right person concerned.

God bless.; December 9, 2008 at 2:08 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Sis. Karen,

Are we all who advocate TTG not TTG members? I think the distinction no longer applicable. Just call everyone of the same conviction for prayer in unison will do. I will pray along with all of you. Please provide list of emphasis and time. That would help. Thanks and God Bless!; December 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Mission OTM,

Thanks for your encouragement and boldness in identifying yourself as a TTG member. I am so sorry to exclude the rest of you. We have been so badly black listed, I did not think that many of you would associate yourself with us. Sorry, I was wrong and I am greatly encouraged.

Other TTG people meeting tonight and reading please reply. I need to go for lunch. So hungry I can eat a horse now. Bye.; December 9, 2008 at 2:18 PM
Anonymous said...: I was reading from The MAXWELL LEADERSHIP BIBLE Pg 914 and thought it is very timely to share with all.

QUOTE:

" THE CHANGING OF THE GUARD:
When Leaders Need to Be Replaced
(Jeremiah 23: 1-16)

God does not hesitate to remove poor or wicked leaders – and beyond their removal, God pronounces His judgment on them.

Jeremiah 23 supplies us with a good evaluation tool to recognize what God values in a leader and what constitutes grounds for dismissal and replacement. Study the characteristics of the kind of leaders God promised to replace:

1. Leaders who destroy their people instead of developing them. (v1)
2. Leaders who scatter their people instead of uniting them in a cause. (v.1)
3. Leaders who abandon their people in fear instead of remaining responsible (v.4)
4. Leaders who act in self-serving and unjust ways instead of standing for the truth (v.10)
5. Leaders who lie, as though there were no God. (v.11)
6. Leaders who lead their people astray instead of guiding them into security. (v.13)
7. Leaders who foster evil and deceit instead of integrity and honesty. (v.14)
8. Leaders who fill people with false hope rather than speaking God’s Word. (v.16)

God didn’t merely threaten to remove bad leaders; He also promised to raise up a Righteous Branch from the line of David to replace these artificial leaders. Today we know that Righteous Branch has a beautiful name: Jesus Christ!" John C. Maxwell

Let us seriously ponder over what is stated above and I am sure you know why it is time for A LEADERSHIP CHANGE IN CALVARY CHURCH.

Let us not be soft hearted or undecided, NOW IS THE TIME TO DO SPIRITUAL BATTLE, STEP FORWARD and DO WHAT IT TAKES.

Our GOD Reigns!; December 9, 2008 at 2:54 PM
Anonymous said...: Leadership Change,

Thank you for sharing with us from The Maxwell Leadership Bible.

It dawned on me as I read the 8 points that they are all applicable to PG. If so, I trust & pray that God will bring a change in leadership in CC soon. I also pray that the change includes the BOD (who are spinless)& APs (who are man fearing & not God fearing).

O God in Heaven, hear this my humble prayer. God may You speak to our TTG Core Group as they meet & pray tonight; may You show them Your Will & Your Way in what they need to do to restore Truth, Transparency & Good Godly Governance in CC. Let Your Name be glorified in all this. Amen.; December 9, 2008 at 3:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Oop looks like everyone trying to clear up their work for prayer tonight so got no time to blog.

We meet at 8.30pm.

Prayer for:

1. God's guidance and wisdom in whatever we do.

2. God's continual conviction in our hearts individually to do the right thing for Him.

3. God's protection upon each one as our real enemy is not "flesh and blood".

4. God's wisdom for the different Christian Organisations to act according to what God would lead them to do.

5. God will grant us a joyful spirit as we prepare to celebrate Christmas.

6. God will give us a fresh start with renewed minds and spirits as we move into the New Year.

God bless.; December 9, 2008 at 5:08 PM
Anonymous said...: My Beloved Brothers and Sister in Christ,

Ps.Kelvin here again. I do humbly apologised if my pervious entry have offended or hurt anyone of you. It is not my desire to do so, and thank you, to all, for the constructive criticism. And yes, if it's the Lord's will to come back to Calvary Church KL and serve Him accordingly to His will, plans and purposes... and to be an encouragement and to edify the body of Christ... I will obey Him and come back.

I can only say so much on this blog... and it is true, I am not physically there to see and experience what all of you have gone thru... the hurts, betrayal and pain, however, my desire is that we see the return of the money as the first step to spiritual healing for ourselves. My encouragement is that we do not allow such circumstances to determine our walk with the Lord. I am not saying or questioning or doubting anyone's relationship with the Lord, but I am encouraging all of us to be spiritually watchful and not allow our adversary to further damage the Lord's church and ourselves. The encouraging direction is forward... not being stagnated.

Five and the half years ago... I had a spinal cord injury that left me paralyse waist down, and both my wife and myself just become parents to a beautiful and wonderful baby girl. I was on the move in the ministry, but I believed that the Lord had greater plans and purposes for my life. My point is this: I did not allow my injury or being paralyse to determine or decide my walk with Him or my life. I made the decision to move-on forward in faith according to His will, plans and purposes. Today, I may have the physical signs of the paralysis, but I am not paralyse.

If anyone of you would like to get in-touch with me, here's my e-mail address: kelvinwazhere@gmail.com.

Praying for you always!

3Rs... Real, Realistic and Relevant!
Kelvin T.L. Lim; December 9, 2008 at 5:21 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Karen,

Thank you for your post. I am also another who reads this blog. You Christians would refer to me as a 'non-Christian'

I've been to one of your Christmas thing's a few years ago. I remember hearing an Indian speaker with an American accent. I'm assuming you are all talking about the same guy.

I am an agnostic. I believe that religion only exists to control and manipulate people. Manipulation comes with a promise of a better life or after life. My 'Christian' friends have always told me that Christianity was different from other religions. I never believed them. They say that when Jesus enters your heart you change. I could never accept this.

Please explain to me how you reconcile this with your faith? I want to understand. It seems that a Christians words are self righteous but you are all actually no different from the rest of us. You cheat each other and condemn each other and tear each other down at every turn.

Yet you are all so passionate about this issue. The world is hurting as we speak. People are hungry and are suffering. You are all so obsessed with justice being served and that you get your church the way you want it.

You should be ashamed of yourselves. My 'Christian' friends tell me that God is love. That Jesus loves the little children.

You should all just leave your church (and church all together) and start helping the poor, the sick and the damned. I think that would be a better use of your time.

Being Christian obviously has not helped.; December 9, 2008 at 5:44 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Non-Christian,

Please write to me personally at calvarytoday@gmail.com Please address your mail to Karen and the administrator will redirect your mail to me. The process may sound long but don't worry, I will try to get back to you asap. Otherwise, my friends will get in touch with you.

The reason being, this is a blog for our church members to be updated on our church issues. You want to have a discourse on religion, I will be happy to address your questions personally via personal e-mails with you.

Thank you for interest in wanting to know our LOVING GOD.

God Bless You.; December 9, 2008 at 6:25 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Non-Christian,

Welcome to our blog, where you get to meet us Christians, warts and all.

We never claim that we Christians are perfect. Those of us who strive to TRULY walk with God will tell you it's an ongoing process of checking ourselves. We will also tell you NOT to look at us but to keep your eyes on JESUS who is PURE and PERFECT. You must want to change before JESUS can change you because our Lord is a God of free will; He doesn't force you, you love and obey Him because you desire to.

We are NOT trying to get our church the way we want it. We are trying to get it the way JESUS meant it to be; for the Church is the bride of our Lord JESUS. Yes, it is because we are ashamed that some of our brothers and sisters have chosen to step out of JESUS' light and walk in darkness that we are 'passionate about this issue'. And because we are 'passionate about this issue' we are NOT leaving the church. And even as we manifest this passion, a lot of us are already using our money to help the poor and needy outside the church.

JESUS' favorites are still the broken ones and the little ones.

God bless you and may you be enlightened!; December 9, 2008 at 6:55 PM
Anonymous said...: PG and Petrina are going into Kajang Gaol very soon. Please prepare them in!; December 9, 2008 at 7:03 PM
Anonymous said...: Thanks Pas. Kelvin for your prompt response. And I must say your personal testimony is indeed very inspirational to many of us, who despite being able-bodied and still lacking in many aspects of our Christian walk. But I thank our Almighty God that He looks at each one of us not in the physical but more importantly He searches our HEARTS. Do continue to serve Him faithfully, always being reminded that God’s servants must always have a heart for His people, and always remain humble and loving.
We in TTG are in this, not because we have chosen to be in it, but I believe we have been called for such a time as this. We have been branded as troublemakers and church-splitters, and sad to say, many of us have been misunderstood by close friends just because we have chosen to stand up for Truth, Transparency and Good Governance.
Given a choice, I believe many of us would not wish to be in the thick of this saga for the past many months especially with so many wild and at times “malicious” allegations hurled at us, if not for God’s grace and guidance. We will continue to pursue this cause, not that we want to split the church, but our sole objective is to see TTG restored in our beloved church. Many of us could have left for other churches but we have chosen to stay on because we want to be part of God’s unfinished business of restoring TTG in Calvary Church. And I firmly believe TTG is called for such a time as this.
It’s our sincere hope and prayer that you will stand in the gap with us to pray for God’s guidance and wisdom in restoring TTG in CC, especially tonight as we gather to pray for His will to be done.
By the way, my offer to have coffee and toast with you, and if you wish, Ipoh Sau Ho Fun, at Ipoh Kopitiam still stands. Email me if you are around this part of town.
God bless in your ministry. Be Real, Realistic and Relevant if you must, but always remember to be Truthful, Transparent and practise Good Governance in your dealings with God and men. Above all, don’t ever lose your shepherd’s heart!; December 9, 2008 at 7:14 PM
pshn said...: TRUE CALVARITES!

REMEMBER YOUR FALLEN SOLDIERS!
The ones who have been struck down
& kicked out by PG
Pastor Tony & Christine Phang
Pastor Susan Tan
Pastor Billy Tan & wife Lyn
Sister Lee Kooi Ping
Joyce Ng
The Diaspora of Calvarites

A little about Joyce Ng
A staff of Calvary
Not at a high level like the pastors are
I remember her as a sweet young girl
who was a little short in stature
But never short of a smile

One day God greatly blessed her
She found her sweetheart!
And requested to get married in Calvary Church
What a simple wish
What a beautiful wish
To have a wedding in your home church
And have all your brothers and sisters-in-Christ
share that memory with you
And have all the pastors whom you love also attending

BUT..........(Now the Calvary culture sticks out its
nasty head again)

Poor Joyce was refused
Why?? Because her husband was not a Calvarite
But...but..protested Joyce
My fiance lives in Switzerland, how can he be a Calvarite?
(This question....only PG can answer........or can he???....
If he can’t he can easily churn up a half-lie,
and the undiscerning in the church will not notice)

Disappointed Joyce lugged her wedding dress
and flew to Switzerland (economy class, mind you)
to marry her husband
No friends could accompany her
But never mind, what to do....just take it lah!
And she bravely continued to smile

One day, while still in Switzerland, Joyce suddenly collapsed and died
She suffered from high blood pressure you see
It was’nt easy to keep it under control
Sadly, her ashes were flown to Malacca, her home town.

Requests were made for CC to conduct her funeral
Her friends thought it be nice for CC church
to be involved with Joyce for just one last time.........

And you just won’t believe it!
The response was negative !!

In the process, one of our fallen soldiers, Sister Lee Kooi Ping
Had a tiff with TO about the situation
But TO did not go

Praise God. There is a rainbow in the sky!
You may not believe it.
There are other churches in world apart from Calvary you know!!
And a Pastor from another church graciously
conducted the funeral service for Joyce
Jo Tay, Wai Leng & Lee Kooi Ping were among others who attended
But were there any CC PASTORS???

We are really thankful to the Lord
Who saw to it that the last rites for our dear Joyce
Was done with some measure of love and dignity
I am sure Joyce would not have asked for more

BUT NO THANKS TO CALVARY CHURCH !!

Joyce, be at peace.
Worry no longer.
FORGIVE THE LEADERSHIP OF CALVARY
Especially TO.
They just don’t know any better !!
And the vocabulary that I have
is just inadequate to describe their behavior.

I consider this an example of a very shabby treatment
of one of Calvary’s staff.
Was she not high-level enough?
Is her pay-scale too low
Compared to the monthly pay of RM25,000 of PG (excluding perks)??

I just cannot fathom how or why these things that happen in Calvary
Pastors are supposed to be the shepherds
The Shepherds are supposed to take care of the sheep
But in the above incident the sheep were trying to help the sheep
While the pastors debated on the legalistic aspects of helping Joyce

And while they were busy debating a pastor
from another church showed compassion
and did............... just the right thing.

TRUE CALVARITES !
I SINCERELY ASK YOU
IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT FOR CALVARY CHURCH?

TRUE CALVARITES.....
DO WE HAVE REAL PASTORS IN CALVARY??

TRUE CALVARITES....
REMEMBER JOYCE
Don’t let her die in vain !

LET’S CHANGE
But like I told you before,
For there to be a change
You must be willing to do something
you have never done before!

MAKE JUST ONE CHANGE
CHANGE THE LEADERSHIP !!; December 9, 2008 at 7:37 PM
Anonymous said...: To all non christians who has commented on this blog...thanks for yr interest in our affairs and truth be told, we christians are just sinners saved by grace and like someone mentioned earlier, we are not perfect.

Personally, i feel that one or two of the 'non christians', ie Anuar and Muthusamy might actually be pro SP supporters posing as non christians. If you are indeed faking it, let this guilt be in your conscience forever..you are after all accountable to God and let's see what you are going to say to Him when you meet Him face to face next time. Typical of SP supporters though.; December 9, 2008 at 8:18 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear ' non christian'

my personal contact with many non believers of Jesus Christ, would not normally call themselves as non christian, they usually said I am not a christian. Somehow, you sound like someone who is very christian but refused to acknowledge yourself as a christian..

Well, anyway, if by any chance you had been involved in this blog, then I must said, it is God's sovereign divine appointment..

I had been a christian for 35 years now, came from buddhist family, though went thru persecution and trial and tribulation, i found that knowing Jesus is the best choices of my lives. I had peace and joy and hope of things unseen.

i pray that God will be gracious and merciful to all of us, be they believer of Christ or not, once again, I thank God for you.; December 9, 2008 at 8:28 PM
Anonymous said...: good point, christian with peace and joy who love Christ...also, I noticed that not once in 'non christian' comments did he even mention abt Prince Guneratnam's wrong doings etc. rather, he rather just mention abt how it is wrong for us to harp on these issues. I may be wrong and forgive me if I'm wrong, non christian, but you sound like you actually are a christian and also one who thinks Prince Guneratnam is innocent, which is why you are writing this comment to comdemn us. I hope I'm wrong, but if you really aren't who you say you are, I feel sad for you. If you are, then, may I suggest you do not look to men for you to make decisions on whether there is a God or not. Do read the bible and check it out yourself...God bless; December 9, 2008 at 8:39 PM
Anonymous said...: Is God using CT to spread His goodnews? looks like it...

so dear christians, esp. calvarites. come support TTG, time to come and support in full force. don keep quiet anymore.; December 9, 2008 at 11:01 PM
Anonymous said...: To Discernment Needed:
"How come many of the bloggers still don't realise those who now and then call for more christian grace and love to be shown are those who are not happy with the way things are in the church and are seeking for changes as well. The difference is that they are merely saying that we should be less vicious and condemning. We (including me) are not closing our eyes to what's happening. There are many ways to skin the cat ... the vicious and condemnation (all the time) approach is something many of us are uncomfortable with."

how about some suggestions on some ways to skin the cat? thanks!; December 9, 2008 at 11:31 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi all,

I refer to myself as a 'Non-Christian' simply because thats how you Christians talk about us who don't share your beliefs. I have seen this in a few church meetings my friends have dragged me to.

As I said I am agnostic. That is - I believe in a higher power but I think that religion brings mostly oppression into the world. And in the case of your church, religion has been used to raise funds and instill blind faithfulness.

I didn't condemn those of you on this blog who seem to have issues with your pastor. I condemned Christianity. I said, 'You cheat each other and condemn each other and tear each other down at every turn.' That means if the people who post on this blog are right, then yet another Christian leader has fallen. It makes me wonder why this keeps happening to 'god's people.' If they are wrong then they are engaging in a war of words which I find contrary to the concept of Christianity that my friends have tried to share with me.

I feel that either way it only serves to prove my point Christianity and all religions only serve to control those who are easy to manipulate.

Karen, I won't be emailing you because I don't need a religious discussion with you or your friends. I have heard most arguments and they have ALL been insufficient in proving the validity of your faith.

And to 'read the bible' ... I won't be reading the bible. I have read certain parts in the past just as I have read parts of the Quran, the teachings of Buddha and the Bagavad Gita. They are all decent holy books written by normal people to create a form of governance for their societies. They are all flawed by design. The bible has been used to do some horrible things in the past. Hitler used it to kill jews, The Americans used it to enslave the blacks, The middle east uses it to prolong a war that has claimed thousands. How can a holy book cause so much devastation?
You are also quoting the bible here as if to say that it is a superior source for logic and morality. History has proven that it is not.

And finally to 'Christian with peace and joy of ...' I am very offended with the premise of your argument. Are you saying that only Christians have this 'joy' and 'peace'? What rubbish! Humanity is far more advanced than to require religion to be its emotional cocaine. Especially this 'Christian joy'

You all can't even get along with each other! Stop trying to change the rest of us. You will find that we are full of 'joy' and 'peace' already.; December 10, 2008 at 12:15 AM
Anonymous said...: To Non Christian,
as strong as u r in yr 'beliefs', may I ask u not to insult ppl like 'christian with joy and peace of Christ'. This is his/her own testimony and if he/she has indeed found joy and peace after knowing Christ, I don't think it is yr position to condemn him/her for it.No one is trying to change you, only God can change you. All we can do is share our own experiences with God but it is up to you whether you want to believe it or not. Pls do not otherwise condemn other ppl for their faith. THank you.; December 10, 2008 at 12:27 AM
Anonymous said...: i agree with Aunty Karen that "WE CHRISTIANS, DO NOT CONDONE AND WILL NOT KEEP QUIET WHEN THINGS ARE NOT RIGHT."

My Christian friends and mentors rebuke me when I'm not doing the right thing or when I'm causing trouble through my behaviour or speech. Sometimes they don't say it in a very 'nice' way (or the way I'd like them to say it).

E.g. one of my friends literally tell me straight on my face that I'm speaking "Rubbish!" "Nonsense!" when I let my tongue loose. Boy did i learn the hard way to control my tongue.

Were they harsh? Were they ungraceful? No, on the contrary, they were being truthful and transparent with me. They said what I needed to hear and not I wanted to hear. They said it in straight-forward ways and didn't beat around the bush. I got the message immediately.

Till today I'm very thankful for such 'irons' in my life that always keep me in check. They were real friends who loved me enough to help correct my mistakes. Even my friend who said that I am talking "Rubbish!" was salted with grace - because it was out of love for me.

The truth does hurt at times. But I'd rather have someone be brutally honest to me than someone trying to be too nice with me.

Sure the blog has some comments that are of stern intonation and even strong words, but I believe they are out of a genuine loving heart. If these are deemed as ungraceful, then please tell me what's the borderline between being graceful and being bluntly honest when needed? I remember Jesus did not try to be nice when He rebuked those who treated His Father's house as a den of robbers (Luke 19:45, 46). By the way, please correct me if I have misunderstood scripture.

Surely too there are comments that are filled with anger and bitterness, it's good to point it out too. But why not let's also pray for healing for the heart - as we all know that the mouth is just the overflow of the heart.

The CT blog admin has already repeatedly asked for the bloggers to comment responsibly. So the bloggers themselves have to be responsible of what they comment. I stopped reading the blog for a while as I was really disturbed by some of the pretty irresponsible and strong comments. But I realised that my faith is not based on how other Christians comment or behave - my faith is based on Jesus Christ. So I'm no longer overtly concerned on the manner of the people commenting here - it's between God and themselves. Bear in mind we are only sinners saved by grace and not perfect. Having a Christian testimony does not mean faking our real self. I want to be a real Christian. And I want to be a real Christian who tells the world how I have overcome my weaknesses and badness through Christ.

Anyway, what really matters now is the cause for TTG and also the need of a shepherd in CC who truly and really loves his sheep. If you love Jesus, if you love His church, if you want to see the problems in CC being resolved, please pray along with the TTG group.

Thank you!; December 10, 2008 at 12:38 AM
Anonymous said...: Tough love,

I am not insulting 'Christian with joy and peace of ...' I am offended by the premise that its because of his conversion to Christianity that he has joy and peace. The argument is a common Christian argument. It suggests that something changes in you when you become a Christian. I am offended because this logic is simply wrong. If that is his experience then that is well and good for him. Perhaps his involvement in the community of Christians have provided him with a outlet for solidarity and social involvement. I don't think that there is anything mystical about being a Christian as he suggests.

"No one is trying to change you, only God can change you."

Then why do my Christian friends keep inviting me to these church meetings? Why was I coerced with the bait of a nice dinner later to come to your church's Christmas event a few years ago? Its because you are motivated to propagate your religion. I have been to your services where special mood music is played at the end and everybody has to close their eyes and are asked to show that they want to convert. Is this not proof that you Christians only want to change the 'non christian.' And no invisible genie in the sky is wanting to do it either.

My first post at 5:44pm was simply to point out that despite your claims of being different and saying that somehow by becoming Christian you are better than the rest of us is a false claim.

I really think you all have so much to contribute to the world. Why not help elsewhere? Why waste so many hours here? This country needs passionate people like you to make a change. Join us at a vigil one of these nights. Come to a rally. Go help at an orphanage or a drug rehab center. Stop wasting your energy on this church of yours. I don't think your god will notice.; December 10, 2008 at 12:51 AM
Anonymous said...: To 'Non-Christian'

Apologies that you felt offended. But I somehow feel that your definition of 'joy' and 'peace' might be different from that of 'christian with joy and peace'. So perhaps when you have chilled a little, maybe we could exchange our thoughts on 'joy' and 'peace'? And if you think i'm trying to 'change' you - well, i wish i could, but i dun have the ability, and so i won't. However i will still like to share my views on joy and peace, that is if you want to listen; but if you dun want to, that's fine too. But perhaps you know already, that's cool too.

Thanks also for being outright frank on your thoughts to towards Christianity.

While i give you the hats off for your blunt honesty as many of us, including myself, lack the courage to be plain honest and try to be too nice, may I ask though, on what premise and whose morality grounds are you basing your condemnation on? Thanks! For this, i'm sincerely curious to learn more from your view point and i promise that i won't give you a 5-point argument to debate with you :) cheers!; December 10, 2008 at 12:56 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear "non-Christian", while we welcome you to this blog, we do appreciate it if you will stop criticising our Christian faith here. I believe that Sis. Karen has already invited you to email her personally and we do hope you will have a discussion with her.

We are here discussing our church family business and I do not think it is polite of you to criticise us. We too sometimes by chance see and hear our neighbours quarelling in their homes. While we may be inquisitive and busy body enough to take a closer and longer evening walk, we do not walk into their home to make our personal comment.

We really would appreciate it if you will stay out of giving us your personal view on our personal faith in Jesus Christ. I have not read anywhere in this blog whereby anyone has tried to invite anyone to attend church meetings or such. If you are not happy with your friend who did that to you, please go tell your friend who invited you about your disappoinment with him/her. I'm sure your friend will be a better help to you.

We really have no idea who you are and we do not want you to get a wrong message from us. It is really difficult to explain in one or two lines about a complicated matter such as Christianity and God. So please email Sis Karen as we over here will proceed on with discussion on our church family matters. Thank you.; December 10, 2008 at 1:21 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear interested,

You've been polite and cordial so I shall return the sentiment. I don't think I can have an argument of definitions with you but what I can say is that my definition of 'joy' and 'peace' should be very similar to that of most people who live in the Klang Valley. If Christians have a different explanation then please tell me.

"And if you think i'm trying to 'change' you - well, i wish i could, but i dun have the ability, and so i won't."

I promised to be cordial so I wont jump on you for this statement but you should know that this is an offensive statement for me. The question that follows is - "Why do you want to change me?" "Why do you wish you could?" "How can you, without even meeting me diagnose that I require 'changing'?" This is the premise by which I take issue with the supposed 'Christian' message. If you 'wish' you could change me then by definition you claim that I have some sort of deficit which your religion can fix, right?

As far as morality is concerned. I am basing my claim on the Christian message that I have been told through my friends and my own personal reading. I have been told that you believe that your god is love and that in his 'son' Jesus there is some sort of morality juice that changes the person who 'asks him into his heart' (whatever that means). Apparently Jesus' message was to love your neighbor as ones self (not an original idea by the way) and to turn the other cheek (also another idea that early bible writers copied). Authenticity aside, I believe that Christians through the centuries have not even lived up to this most basic teaching. Think about the Crusades, the tyranny of Rome, the burning of 'witches,' WWII, the wars in Palestine, Iraq, Afganistan, and Pakistan. All events where Christianity is front and center. Its a far cry from 'love your neighbor.' And in this blog, I have seen all sorts of accusations - religious leaders cheating, members honesty questioned, members plotting to send others to jail ... How is this 'loving your neighbor' or 'turning the other cheek'?

This is my issue here. I have friends who go to different churches in the city they all center their argument similarly. There are exceptions of course - The friend who goes to your church claims that by talking jibberish (you call it speaking in tongues) you can communicate with god. However, the primary claim to the superiority of the Christian faith is that is is about a god who can love mortals.

I base my morality argument on the concept of morality shared by other Christians. And even that is an argument that cannot be backed up with facts and proof.; December 10, 2008 at 1:21 AM
Anonymous said...: Oh Lord I pray for "non christian" here, I pray against any spirit of deception, spirit of falsehood. In the name of Jesus, we pray for your forgiveness upon him/her.

Lord, we have serious issue at hand, right now, this post is talking about finances from CIM, a very serious issue of our senior pastor, not people like" non christian", Lord help us all not to be side track but to seek your divine intervention. remove all forms of lies...

Break every yoke of bondage, touch Lord the heart of our sp and wife. Humble them, and Lord, help them to be wise in making their next step of actions-- that is the call by TTg and supporters and members and deacons calling for their resignation. Lord we know we can cast all our cares unto you.

We pray and commit all these in Jesus name. Amen; December 10, 2008 at 1:45 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Bros & Sis,

We just had a wonderful time praying and seeking God for wisdom and directions. We thank you for many who have responded to different ones of us that you will be praying along with us and we did feel the presence of God in our midst.

We had someone who sms back to say that precisely at 8.30pm our local time, she would be praying along with us even though at that time, she was on the plane on her way overseas. This is a real encouragement to us. Let us continue to seek daily. Good night.; December 10, 2008 at 1:47 AM
Anonymous said...: Sorry, I mean to seek God daily. Must be because really sleepy now. Good night.; December 10, 2008 at 1:51 AM
Anonymous said...: Pray, pray unceasingly! Those were the guideline we have. They are applicable to pray through, now and on the daily basis.

1. God's guidance and wisdom in whatever we do.

2. God's continual conviction in our hearts individually to do the right thing for Him.

3. God's protection upon each one as our real enemy is not "flesh and blood".

4. God's wisdom for the different Christian Organizations to act according to what God would lead them to do.

5. God will grant us a joyful spirit as we prepare to celebrate Christmas.

6. God will give us a fresh start with renewed minds and spirits as we move into the New Year.

Ps 5:1~3 (KJV)
"Give ear to my words, O LORD, consider my meditation.

Hearken unto the voice of my cry, my King, and my God: for unto thee will I pray.

My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct my prayer unto thee, and will look up."

Blessed Christmas!; December 10, 2008 at 5:14 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear 'Non-Christian'

THE answer to your above mentioned passage that "Its a far cry from 'love your neighbor.' And in this blog, I have seen all sorts of accusations - religious leaders cheating, members honesty questioned, members plotting to send others to jail ... How is this 'loving your neighbor' or 'turning the other cheek'?" is simply this -

There are christians and "christians"

Do not be despair. God will lead you to the right way of salvation.; December 10, 2008 at 7:37 AM
Anonymous said...: In response to pshn Dec 9, 7.37 pm.

obvioulsy, you did not attend Joyce

funeral service at GT.

P To could have overlooked certain

things but he made amends by

respecting Joyce to attend the

funeral although he was hurled

with unpleasantness along the way.

P TO was there.

Let's give P TO due respect and

actual reporting rather than to

distort the news.

I am a friend of Joyce and let her

soul rest in peace with the Lord.

I am not a P TO supoorter but

to give the reader the truth.

Sis Lee Kooi Peng, you did a good

job in making the necessary

arrangement and you have a heart

of Florence Nightingale.

Wherever you are, dont feel hurt

but please come back to CC.

God Bless You and A Blessed

Christmas to all of you; December 10, 2008 at 8:45 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear pshn,

Thank you for that write-up about Joyce. It brought a lump to my throat & tears to my eyes....I remember Joyce. Surely, a sweet girl with a lovely smile! I had ALMOST FORGOTTEN (it's been years ago!) that the church pastors treated her so shabbily in life AND in death! We served together in the Home Life Ministry as well as in AIM. May her soul rest in peace.

Yes, I agree with you....there MUST BE A CHANGE OF LEADERSHIP for Calvary Church! There SHOULD BE, and there WILL BE coming a day of new beginning for all Calvarites who have been deceived, hurt, treated like dirt, used & discarded, treated as second-class citizens, ignored & mistreated, abused & duped, cheated, lied-to, cast aside, unfairly sacked & scorned, by the pastors of CC!

Let it be so, Lord. Incline Thine ear to hear our cries! We cry to You, O God of Justice & Righteousness, to right the wrongs in Calvary Church, Kuala Lumpur, to restore justice & righteounsness, to expose the hidden works of darkness in the midst of Calvary Church that has brought great shame to Your Holy Name, & to vindicate those who speak up for Truth, Transparency & good church governance. In Jesus' name, I pray. Amen.; December 10, 2008 at 8:57 AM
Anonymous said...: 'Non-Christian' is a fake, the devious & lying work of the same person who wrote as Annuar Ramli & Muthusamy.. to try to bring discouragement & condemnation to TTG! Could be 'Why So Long' in disguise.; December 10, 2008 at 9:07 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear all,

Much has been said about our dear sister Joyce and the involvement (and non-involvement) of Pas. TO. Yes, we must uphold truth and not merely speculate, and therefore we must also report the actual events. In short, we must be fair to all and sundry.

Now that the truth of both sides has been revealed, let's rest the matter. I hope this will not be brought up again. Let's respect Joyce for she is now in a better place than all of us. She's with Jesus and that's what matters.

God bless.; December 10, 2008 at 9:20 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear All,

We shouldn't have the habit of judging 'Non-Christian' too hastily, without evidence.

By reading his blog, is insufficient to pass summary judgement!

Give him the opportunity to explain first. Moreover, he is entitled to his opinion. We must be fair to all Bloggers.; December 10, 2008 at 9:31 AM
Anonymous said...: I sense Non Christian has ulterior motives to discredit and distract the TTG cause. He or she is throwing a spanner in the works or creating a smoke screen so people will disappear from the blog due to the unpleasantness. A better and holier than thou thinker?

He or she wants to have the last word no matter what others say! We don't need such preaching or lecturing here. Good bye.; December 10, 2008 at 9:48 AM
Anonymous said...: Let's leave "Non-Christian" alone. He/She is only seeking attention here. This blog is not created for religious discourse, and therefore we should never be distracted. Let's stay focus on the issues in CC.; December 10, 2008 at 10:06 AM
Anonymous said...: I think anonymous at 9:31am has a point. We are all entitled to our own opinion.

But it is a risk worth taking to make this public. People need to know about how we have been conned by PG and SAP. They abuse the pulpit and cheat the flock. Their children and grandchildren enjoy all the blessings life has to offer while we suffer every day to make ends meet.

How can they be allowed to do this?

And we TTG members have no voice. We can't speak at EGM and we won't be allowed to at AGM. This is our last best hope for justice and truth.

So what if there are a few non-believers who find this blog? Let God deal with them and punish them. We must continue our fight to remove PG and SAP.; December 10, 2008 at 10:58 AM
Anonymous said...: To 'Non-christian'

Thanks for pointing out what i've said that offended you and apologies for that. i must have been very judgmental when i said that and i apologize whole-heartedly for that.

Thanks also for sharing your point of view. at least i have a better understanding of someone who's an agnostic :) i promised i won't start a debate or whatever with you and i will keep to my word. Thanks for sharing!

But i also have to say that i can't concur with you that we are wasting our energy here. If, and i'm saying IF, there's an inappropriate use of funds in the organization that you are volunteering at, wouldn't you also want to do something about it? i hope i didn't offend you with what i'm saying here btw.

Anyway, this is currently what we are facing. We have to do something about it. From what i understand, one of the objectives that this blog hopes to achieve is to persuade/convince the church that there is a need for a system whereby whatever funds that are given to the church and how they are used has accountability and transparency. Most importantly, these funds will be channeled appropriately and for the right purposes.

Also we are doing our part in this world in helping the needy and contributing to society through various means. Thanks for reminding us to care more for the world too.

You have a very kind heart and keep up the good work in contributing to society and helping the needy.

God bless.; December 10, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Anonymous said...: Hi all

if we still continue to talk and blog, and PG n wife continue to strategize and scheme, we may be too late. let us all focus on our rights, our rights as sons/daughters of God to take necessary action on PG and wife and deacons-- have them sacked all together for misconduct and abuse.

forget abt false teaching by the 'non christian'. So long as We the TTG, recognize and acknowledge that we are Christians and CT is for all calvarites, we should not be subjected to such temptation of false teaching, we have God's Word, our weapon, our shield, our garment of praise. the Word said in the Lord's prayer: Lead us not into temptation and deliver us from evil ones, so we will continue to abide in His word.; December 10, 2008 at 11:20 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear Brothers and Sisters,
Perhaps you are not aware of the needs in this ministry. You will be surprise small contribution does make a lot of different here. Bro. Philip Mok's contact provided.

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我尊敬的朋友和牧者：平安；
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Philip Mok (莫绍南致敬)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------; December 10, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Anonymous said...: I also think Anonymous at 9:31am is right too, otherwise everyone may conclude that TTG leaders and members have the culture of speculating in all things and immediate thereafter be the Judge, Jury and Executor - all in one.

That doesn't give 'Non Christian' a good encounter.

Remember to preach God's love.; December 10, 2008 at 11:32 AM
Anonymous said...: Hi mission otm

I know the people at the house of victory. Hearing their testimonies encourage me to steadfast. That is another worthy course.

http://www.hseofvictory.com/; December 10, 2008 at 12:21 PM
Anonymous said...: We have been wondering in the wilderness for a while. Several distractions along the way.

Let us go back to the comments by Leadership Change on December 9 @2.54 p.m.on "Changing of the Guard" Writeup by John C Maxwell for Jeremiah 23:1-6.

This is the right time for Change of Leadership in Calvary Church.

The character flaws and intentions of SP, SAP, APastors and BOD are too glaringly obvious.; December 10, 2008 at 12:41 PM
Anonymous said...: Hi Interested,

Thank you for your cordial reply. My earliest entry was perhaps a little enraged and I am happy that you can see the merits of my frustration with religion.

I agree with you that justice must be served. If I were a similar situation I too would want there to be truth and honesty.

But why would you be so interested in saving something so flawed anyway? This blog only confirms my frustration with religious bodies. Why do you even need to go and be a part of a church when somewhere down the line something like this will also happen? Perhaps it wont be related to money but there will always be a scandal.

Whats the point of being part of a church? Is it just to make friends? Is it some sort of therapy so you feel good and can face your life's challenges?

I've had many friends who have done MLM's and thought that they will gain their riches and happiness by being part of one of those pyramid schemes. In the end they lost money and left. I don't know anyone who tried to sue the company. I think most of them felt that it was a good lesson learned and just moved on.

The church for you guys was that MLM. It engaged you and caused you to feel happy to be a part of it. It promised that if you live a certain way you will have a good life and a happy after life. Now you have discovered that the church has failed you (at least that's the main objective of the blog). Why do you stay? Churches are destined to fail. They either go out with a big scandal (like your money scandal or some sort of morally related one) or they fizzle out to become a tourist attraction.

Thats why I think you can better use your combined resources, intelligence and energy to make the world a better place. Why not? I think if you guys actually decided to help the poor or the sick you would do far more to help the world than by fighting for such a flawed organization.

Cheers!; December 10, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Anonymous said...: Yeah, I strongly believe and sense in my spirit that the time is right for changing of the guard in CC. God has indeed heard our cries and pleas and He's intervening and a changing of the guard is IMMINENT! The time is now and we must move forward with God.

When the shepherd has already lost his heart for his sheep, he's no anointed to be a shepherd. If PG is really a man of God, he should listen to the still small voice of God and recognise that he no longer has a shepherd's heart and hence must move on, maybe as an evangelist, provided he still has a passion for souls out there.

I believe God calls us everyday, and it's up to us to listen to His still small voice and obey Him. If PG has indeed heard from God to be an evangelist many years ago, which he has often times shared with Calvarites from the pulpit, then he must obey God.

Don't hang on in CC just because you want to see the completion of CCC. Maybe CCC is destined to be completed by someone else at the helm but not PG. If that is God's will, so be it. PG must recognise this and move on. This will be the honourable thing to do.

Move on, PG, move on. Spare our beloved church of the mess we are in. If you really love this church, please release us. You will still have a place in our hearts, as God has taught us to forgive. And with God's love will will still embrace you as our brother who has done much for CC. That's something no one can ever take away from you. We still love you.; December 10, 2008 at 1:10 PM
pshn said...: To:

Friend of Joyce said...
December 10, 2008 7:37 AM

Thank you for your clarification concerning the presence of TO at the funeral of Joyce Ng.; December 10, 2008 at 1:26 PM
Anonymous said...: After refusing to conduct Joyce's funeral, was TO there because the still small voice prompted him?

Was TO there to show up (& be seen by others) & to shed crocodile tears (not sincere & genuine)?

Only God & TO know, others like us can only guess.; December 10, 2008 at 2:23 PM
Anonymous said...: Yes, I agree with "Time is Right at 12.41pm", let's get back to
"the comments by Leadership Change on December 9 at 2.54p.m.on "Changing of the Guard" Writeup by John C Maxwell for Jeremiah 23:1-6.

This is the right time for Change of Leadership in Calvary Church.

The character flaws and intentions of SP, SAP, APastors and BOD are too glaringly obvious."

For the convenience of everyone, I am reposting the abovementioned comments by Leadership Change at 2.54pm yesterday:-

Leadership Change said...
I was reading from The MAXWELL LEADERSHIP BIBLE Pg 914 and thought it is very timely to share with all.

QUOTE:

" THE CHANGING OF THE GUARD:
When Leaders Need to Be Replaced
(Jeremiah 23: 1-16)

God does not hesitate to remove poor or wicked leaders – and beyond their removal, God pronounces His judgment on them.

Jeremiah 23 supplies us with a good evaluation tool to recognize what God values in a leader and what constitutes grounds for dismissal and replacement. Study the characteristics of the kind of leaders God promised to replace:

1. Leaders who destroy their people instead of developing them. (v1)
2. Leaders who scatter their people instead of uniting them in a cause. (v.1)
3. Leaders who abandon their people in fear instead of remaining responsible (v.4)
4. Leaders who act in self-serving and unjust ways instead of standing for the truth (v.10)
5. Leaders who lie, as though there were no God. (v.11)
6. Leaders who lead their people astray instead of guiding them into security. (v.13)
7. Leaders who foster evil and deceit instead of integrity and honesty. (v.14)
8. Leaders who fill people with false hope rather than speaking God’s Word. (v.16)

God didn’t merely threaten to remove bad leaders; He also promised to raise up a Righteous Branch from the line of David to replace these artificial leaders. Today we know that Righteous Branch has a beautiful name: Jesus Christ!" John C. Maxwell

Let us seriously ponder over what is stated above and I am sure you know why it is time for A LEADERSHIP CHANGE IN CALVARY CHURCH.

Let us not be soft hearted or undecided, NOW IS THE TIME TO DO SPIRITUAL BATTLE, STEP FORWARD and DO WHAT IT TAKES.

Our GOD Reigns!

December 9, 2008 2:54 PM; December 10, 2008 at 2:33 PM
Anonymous said...: I am a young Christian and a law student, and I am surprised to read Calvary Today's comment today -

"Please do not be harsh to anyone who is not "directly" involved in this whole mess. We believe that this mess was created by SP & his wife and we must stay focused on asking them to retire from CC gracefully."

I could not believe that on the basis of CT's "We believe" you are asking people to retire. In our mock trial, we have to adduce evidence to support our case. If it is so easy, everyone can be lawyer.; December 10, 2008 at 2:34 PM
Anonymous said...: Likewise, there was a comment by God Fearer at 3.34pm yesterday to Leadership Change, as follows:-

God Fearer said...
Leadership Change,

Thank you for sharing with us from The Maxwell Leadership Bible.

It dawned on me as I read the 8 points that they are all applicable to PG. If so, I trust & pray that God will bring a change in leadership in CC soon. I also pray that the change includes the BOD (who are spinless)& APs (who are man fearing & not God fearing).

O God in Heaven, hear this my humble prayer. God may You speak to our TTG Core Group as they meet & pray tonight; may You show them Your Will & Your Way in what they need to do to restore Truth, Transparency & Good Godly Governance in CC. Let Your Name be glorified in all this. Amen.

December 9, 2008 3:34 PM; December 10, 2008 at 2:36 PM
Anonymous said...: Reading this Blog, there are too many "but", "if", "I suppose", "we believe", "someone said so" and the likes being used that cloud the real issues and blur our vision.

How can we find out the fact from this jungle and not being misled and abused?

Until we Christians can clear this , we can never make sound judgement and decision.; December 10, 2008 at 2:53 PM
Anonymous said...: Thanks young christian law student, Anonymous 2.34pm. for reminding us we need evidence to support our case. Yeah we have let Lee Tuck Heng off easy for not doing a good job all these years being our church auditor.

His negligence and poor performance in ensuring that all the accounts of the church finances are properly accounted for is the evidence of why SP can have the oportunity to put his hands into the church coffers. Very true young lawyer, we need to check and investigate on Lee Tuck Heng because I also find it fishy that he still considers himself qualified enough to be in the new finance committee. Maybe he too has got some personal interest to protect.

Good thinking young lawyer. That's why we are not lawyers and you are.; December 10, 2008 at 3:15 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear Ah Beng No.2,

I agree with you. If PG stays on because of CCC, chances are CCC will become a white elephant. BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GIVING ANYMORE!

We now have lots of reasons to suspect his motive for starting it. Everything now points to his seeking self-glory. His staying on will only earn him another 'accolade': this is the failed project that Prince Guneratnam started.; December 10, 2008 at 3:17 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear brothers and sisters in Christ. Here is an article for you to meditate upon. God Bless

Does God need any of us?

Spurgeon, "GOOD NEWS FOR THE AGED"

What! he who guides the stars, and keeps them revolving in
their orbits by the motions of his fingers, does he need an
insignificant atom like one of ourselves to serve him?

What! he whom all the hosts of angels do worship, and before
whose throne the cherubim do veil their faces with their wings,
does he need a tiny creature like man to give him homage and
reverence?

If he did need men, he could soon create as many mighty kings
and princes as he pleased to wait upon him, and he could have
crowned heads to bow before his footstool, and emperors to
conduct him through the world in triumph. But he needs not men;
he can do without them if he pleases.

O you stars! you are bright; but you are not the lamps which
light the way of God; he needs you not.

O sun! you are bright; but your heat warms not Jehovah.

O earth! you are beautiful; but your beauty is not needed to
gladden his heart; God is glad enough without you.

O you lightnings! though you write his name in fire upon the
midnight darkness, he needs not your brightness.

And you, wild ocean! you are mighty; but though you hymn
his deep praise in your solemn chorus, your storms do not
add to his glory.

You winds! though you attend the march of God across the
pathless ocean; — you thunders! though you utter God’s
voice in terrible majesty, and track the onward progress of
the God of armies, he needs you not.

He is great without you, great beyond you, great above you;
and, as he needs you not, he needs us not.

Loves
JWCM; December 10, 2008 at 5:06 PM
Anonymous said...: Dear JWCM

What a wonderful confirmation that God does not need SP anymore.

Your quote said,
"GOOD NEWS FOR THE AGED"

"He is great without you, great beyond you, great above you;
and, as he needs you not, he needs us not."

Although these words sound funny to me but still it speaks out loudly the message that CC indeed need a LEADERSHIP CHANGE. Someone close to SP & SAP must print this for them to read. If this does not speak to them clearly - Good news for the aged (60+ I believe they are now), then I don't know what will.; December 10, 2008 at 6:00 PM
The Trampled Rose said...: To those who have blogged about Joyce,

Reading about what was blogged about Joyce, only brought back the pain for us - the rejection of her marriage ceremony by the Cc and of her funeral arrangements.

However, please respect us, the members of her husband's family, and let her memory rest in peace.

Thank you

Diana; December 10, 2008 at 7:00 PM
Anonymous said...: Scripture Reading for Today:

Jeremiah 23:1-4

"Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture!" says the Lord.

"Therefore thus says the Lord God of Israel against the shepherds who feed My people: "You have scattered My flock, driven them away, and not attended to them. Behold, I will attend to you for the evil of your doings," says the Lord.

"But I will gather the remnant of My flock...and bring them back to their folds: and they shall be fruitful and increase.

"I will set up shepherds over them who will feed them; and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, nor shall they be lacking, " says the Lord.'

What a powerful assurance that God is our loving Heavenly Father who will raise and appoint caring and loving shepherds to feed His sheep.

Let us affirm this in our hearts and look forward eagerly to the day we have new and loving Pastors who have genuine love and care for CC members and worshippers.; December 10, 2008 at 7:16 PM
pshn said...: bnmnvmn; December 10, 2008 at 9:16 PM
Anonymous said...: Amen.

That will indeed be the day when our Lord will once again gather His sheep who have gone away from their shepherd, and bring them back to His beloved church, Calvary Church of Kuala Lumpur.

That will indeed be the day when His glory will fully be restored in His church.

That will indeed be the day when God's people will be fed by His anointed shepherd.

That will indeed be the day when His people will rejoice as they bring in the sheaves.

That will indeed be the day when His people will longer be abused by their shepherd.

That will indeed be THE DAY OF OUR LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Amen.; December 10, 2008 at 9:20 PM
Anonymous said...: Sorry, it should be:

"That will indeed be the day when His people will NO longer be abused by their shepherd."

Must have been the heavy dinner.; December 10, 2008 at 9:22 PM
Anonymous said...: pshn,

what is this "bnmnvmn". Is it Morse Code? Please decipher. Thanks; December 10, 2008 at 9:23 PM
Anonymous said...: PG and Petrina have 2 choices:

a. Resigned gracefully
b. Admit, don't resign and go to Kajang Gaol.

Don't let the congregation loses faith in pastors and church workers. 99 % are Ok but the 1 % leaves a bad taste in everyone else.

Please lah PG and Petrina. Do the right thing.; December 10, 2008 at 9:38 PM
Anonymous said...: pshn,

Don't understand what you are trying to tell us. Please inform us in clear and simple language.

Thanks.; December 10, 2008 at 9:40 PM
Anonymous said...: Thank you for sharing. Your story is an inspiration. Please forgive me for being too harsh with you....I must have misunderstood you. Continue to keep serving the Lord with gladness! My love to your family...; December 10, 2008 at 9:46 PM
pshn said...: NEW SCIENCE DISCOVERY:

CHURCHES CAN GROW WITHOUT GROWING

In the early years things were quite simple
We only talked about church members
And we usually mean those above 18 or working.

Now a great phenomena of church growth has been discovered.
In a church in Kimimawa, an island in the North of Japan
It grows without having to grow!!

This amazing happening began just 10 years ago.
Please follow the conversation of the Pastor
and his Associate as it occurred 10 years ago.

How many members do we have now?
60, Sir
Hmm....a bit small, huh!

2 years later, the church has still not increased.
The Pastor ponders .......
OK. Lets include the visitors as members.
How many visitors are there?
40, Sir
Alright, now we have a 100 members.
And a growth of 60% in 2 years!
That’s not bad.

Another 2 years goes by & no increase.
The Pastor ponders again......
Let’s include the children.
How many children are there?
150,Sir. Shall we include babies?
Why not.
What about babies of pregnant mothers?
Pastor: Ok! OK! Lets not get carried away!

That makes it a total of 300 and a 200% increase!
Now add the Associate members
But sir, they all either inactive, or left or are dead.
Never mind lah. Nobody ever checks the list.
(Now the number increases to 600)

Now include the satellite churches!
But sir, they are already independent.
Never mind, just include them.
What about the satellite of the satellite church?
Include them too !
And satellite of the satellite of the satellite?
Hey! Don’t try be funny with me huh.
Sir the final total is 9999! Praise the Lord!
The Pastor pats himself on the back
And leans back on his leather office chair.
Very satisfied with the growth of his church!

There we have it!
Church growth without growing! Voila !

For me, I’d rather count members in the good ol’ days
More honestlah.
But that is only my humble opinion.

I am reminded of inflating balloons
At first it is small and then it becomes very big
But It is actually the same small balloon.
And the big it is only filled with a lot of hot air!; December 10, 2008 at 10:13 PM
Anonymous said...: pshn,

Thanks now I begin to understand why recent news article on CCC says CC has 10,000 members because when I look around during normal sunday services and although I calculate all the attendances in satellite churches but even then, I can't add up to 10,000 members for CC!

Truly we must use conventional, truthful and honest way to determine membership number otherwise isn't it misrepresentation or simply lying to ourselves and outside world?

Why do we need to look good and impressive to others? Isn't it more important we please God rather than try to impress man?; December 10, 2008 at 10:56 PM
Anonymous said...: I read somewhere on the blog that CCC will cost approximately RM 250 million when completed. It could be more because of inflation and rising cost of materials and labour. When with other Christians, they say the cost is awesome and why is it so high. What are you building?

When the CCC was first announced and when I heard of the twin wings that opens and closes, I remarked to my better half that this structure will be expensive and costly to maintain. It's a waste of money considering its infrequent use. At that time my wife like most brainwashed Calvarites said "Do not question his vision as it may have been from God. Say some more and you will be cast as a rebel." Today, she is different.

On the CCC, Honorary Pastor D.R. Guynes in an open letter dated Sep 19, 2008 addressed to Whom It May Concern, c/o Calvary Church wrote "The design of the building by a "freemason is of no great consequence. So much of what is done for Christian believers is done by other than Christians. All kinds of business activities such as banking, travel, hotel management, airline owners and pilots, legal services, local government, etc, etc are carried on by non-Christians and we accept that. We are in the world but not of it, Paul said."

With due respect to Pastor Guynes, I beg to differ. It is widely documented on the internet that freemasonry is described as "anti-Christian". Many churches have forbid its members to be masons. AOG is one of these churches. There may be symbols of freemasonry in the design of the building that they undertake. So, do we want a sanctuary that is designed by a freemason? How will you feel when you walk into this sanctuary? I had read in the blog that this had been brought to the attention of PG in the early stages! Btw the serpent is also in the freemasonry beliefs.

On Pastor Guynes' remark "business activities such as banking, travel, ...... and we accept that", to me it is a different issue. Here, the freemasonry beliefs or thinking is not imposed on us. e.g. if I fly to London on an airline with a freemason pilot, I would not know, would I? As long as he flies me safely to my destination, I am happy. The passengers would not know about freemasonry and each one goes his separate ways.

I will not give any more to this project. How about you? Go on the internet, read more about freemasonry and decide for yourself.

In the same letter on the EGM, Pastor Guynes had also remarked that "No voting was to take place and no resolutions were to be considered. I was assured of this before I agreed to chair the meeting." But at the EGM, a ministry in CIM was transferred back to Calvary Mission. No discussion or whatsoever. BOD announced it and that's it. Isn't this contrary to what Pastor Guynes said. Pastor Guynes was supposed to be neutral as he had wrote ".....to provide as neutral a chairmanship as possible." at the EGM but members saw what a play (sandiwara) was performed that night.

Concerned Calvarites must find means to read Pastor Guynes' open letter which was given to the Leaders and you will conclude that he is not neutral at all.

DO NOT forget he received USD10,000 to chair the meeting (need I say more). Plus his airfare (dunno whether it was business class or economy, your guess)and accommodation expenses, it comes to a princely sum.

And the best part is CC pays this and it was to explain CIM's role. Calvary mission hardly came into the picture. The lawyer said that what is given, cannot be asked to be returned and the BOD has "approved" the transfers of the money over the years. That's about CM.

With Pastor Guynes not neutral and condoning freemasonry and PG and PG2 stubbornly clinging on to their cash cow, kepala sakit lah.

Btw you can read "Why would a Pastor Condone, or defend Freemasonry?" on the websites at http://www.emfj.org & http://www.ephesians5-11.org which will enlighten you.; December 11, 2008 at 12:01 AM
Anonymous said...: Dear All,

As Christians, we must always be guarded by our Christian teaching. In this respect, let us not forget the following scripture:

Thou Shalt Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself

Leviticus 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Mark 12:28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?
29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

Luke 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

Luke 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

Romans 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.; December 11, 2008 at 9:35 AM
Anonymous said...: To "The Truth Is Out There"

You commented that
"....Pastor Guynes was supposed to be neutral as he had wrote ".....to provide as neutral a chairmanship as possible." at the EGM but members saw what a play (sandiwara) was performed that night......."

Your are absolutely right on the "sandiwara" performed by Ps Guynes at the EGM except that most of us were not aware that PG was controlling Ps Guynes by "remote control".

"Remote control?" Did I hear you say that?

Yes, "remote control".

Most of us would remember that towards the end, Bro. Alan Chan remarked to PG "Pastor, don't try to stop what I am going to say". At that point, I (like most of you) was puzzled why AC made that remark seeing that PG was sitting with us & Ps Guynes was conducting the EGM.

After the EGM I found out that every time that Ps Guynes had interrupted a brother/sister with his "Thank you brother/sister" repeatedly, it was because PG had signalled him with the "timeout" sign (by making a "T" sign with PG's hands).

I guess then PG would have also "signalled" to the AV man to switch off the microphone when a brother/sister was talking &/or asking questions. Is this the way of a shepherd? What sort of a shepherd is PG? Does God still want such a shepherd? Would you still want to be "controlled" by such a shepherd?

Calvarites if you truly love your church & your God, rise up & send PG out of CC. Yes, PG had grown CC but he is now past his "best before" date & PG's misdeeds stinks. How can we bring our friends & relatives to CC when the stench is so unbearable?

I read that even Bro. Vijay (& others who were equally discerning like him) who came to CC last year left after a couple of weeks. I guess Bro. Vijay could smell the stench. As for us, we have grown accustomed to the stench & we need someone outside to walk in & point it out to us. Wake up from your slumber, take a deep breath & decide for yourself.

Calvarites, the choice is clear. It is your choice, I have chosen that PG must go. Have you?; December 11, 2008 at 9:38 AM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous 9.35 am

Hey! you are wasting space here by putting out all the Scriptures. Just tell us the book and verse - we can all look it up.

Anyway not that we are not familiar with all that you quoted. Have you ever thought of quoting these Scriptures to PG as he seems to have forgotten them?? We do not need reminding.; December 11, 2008 at 9:47 AM
Anonymous said...: To Anonymous at 9.35am,

Thank you for all the scripture verses which most of us are aware of but what are you trying to say?

Be bold, speak out what is in your heart. Are you trying to tell us that we don't love PG?

If so, you need to pray to God for more discernment. We are merely putting into practice what the pulpit has taught us over the years & that is to hate the sins but to love the sinner(s).

Whilst we may have pointed out the numerous misdeeds of PG, it doesn't mean that we don't love him. On the contrary, it is out of our love for PG & our desire that PG should be going in the right direction so that we can all be with Jesus one day that we need to point out PG's misdeeds.

Were you there when PG preached a good Easter message, some year ago, entitled "Roadblocks to Hell" with great sound effects & fantastic props? Can't you & PG see that God loves PG? Can't you & PG see that God has set up a roadblock (by using the TTG & others in this SAGA) to stop PG from going to Hell?

I understand that God had set up many roadblocks previously which PG didn't heed.

There was a prophetess who rebuked PG in God's name "to serve & not to be served" some 7 years ago & then there was a prophet (Ps Bernard Blessings) at a church camp who physically carried the pulpit up to PG to demonstrate to PG how close PG needs to be to His sheep. Did PG heed all these roadblocks?

Could this SAGA be God's FINAL roadblock for PG? Only God knows but may God have mercy on PG as he deals with him.

Even King David repented when God set up a roadblock in the form of the prophet Nathan. Why is PG so stiff necked? Does PG thinks that he is above God? Is that why there is no mention of God in our last Annual Report but on every page of it credit is given to PG & GFF?

God, have mercy on PG for he knows not what he is doing? Amen.; December 11, 2008 at 10:04 AM
Anonymous said...: Annoymous Dec 11 @9.35 a.m.

You have aptly pointed out all the Scriptures on love.

Yes, we all have to abide by the Word but what about our CC leaders.. SP, SAP, APs and BOD? Have they shown good examples as to how these verses should be applied in life? They preach and teach the Word. They ask us to look into the mirror and do what is needed but do they do the same?

Every week the Word is preached and every month Holy Communion is celebrated and we are asked to openly acknowledge and ask for forgiveness before God and resolve things with each other but would our leaders acknowledge there is grievances and hurts between the shepherd and the sheep or between leadership and members or worshippers?

Why the pretence and refusal to humble themselves before the Body and making the choice and will to obey His Word? Why the hiding before the congregation and merrily doing Church business as though all is well when it is not?

Why is the love, humilty and obedience to the Lord?
You call the kettle black but you as the pot is also black.

The Word is a double-edged sword so likewise it is also applicable to CC leaders as well as to members and worshippers.

BUT one thing is for sure the Truth and Righteous cannot be in anyway comprised. The wrong must be dwealt with on God's terms but of course we would initiate all means to seek amicable resolution through love and forgiveness.

However, firstly confession and true repentance have to be present and evident not defiance and denial. Then healing and reconciliation can flow.

Let us pray for a miracle for the Truth & Righteous to be acknowledged and embraced by Pastors and BOD openly and humbly before the Body very soon.; December 11, 2008 at 10:19 AM
Anonymous said...: Sorry the sentence should read:

"Where is the love, humility and obedience to the Lord? You call the kettle black but you as the pot is also black!"; December 11, 2008 at 10:31 AM

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