CT is aghast and shocked as events unfolded this morning at Damansara Perdana. The way our former long-serving deacon, Dr. Lum was treated by a so-called “Independent” Panel of Inquiry is something we might read about in some draconian government or some communist country of yester-year.
At 9.30am today, Dr Lum together with his witnesses went to Damansara Perdana to attend an Inquiry supposedly formed by the Board of Deacons (BOD). Two out of his proposed list of 10 witnesses were barred from entering the church premises, for reasons best known to the Panel Chairman, Dato Nelson. The 2 persons barred were proposed by Dr Lum a few days earlier in writing to Dato Nelson, to be present for the purpose of observing the proceedings and to verify the authenticity of the final minutes of the Inquiry.
When the Inquiry was about to begin, only Dr Lum was allowed into the Inquiry room. None of his witnesses were allowed to accompany him despite Dr Lum, having written to Dato Nelson yesterday for one witness to assist him, as he, being a medical doctor, is not well-versed in inquiry procedures and proceedings.
A stand-off ensued and Pastor Steven was asked by Dr Lum and his witnesses to mediate and come to an understanding of the terms of reference and some agreed ground rules for the Inquiry. The mediation was necessary because Dato Nelson refused to meet Dr Lum for a direct discussion on the procedures. Dr Lum and his witnesses also expressed their concern that based on the letters issued by the BOD to Dr Lum, they had already decided on his termination and that this Inquiry is merely for show.
Dr Lum proposed the following:-
1. That Dato Nelson discharge himself as Chairman due to questions on his independence and impartiality. The reasons for this are that at the last EGM, Dato Nelson strongly spoke up in support of SP and criticized the concerned members for “attacking” SP with questions and that Dato Nelson was instrumental in helping SP receive the “Datukship” title.
Dr Lum made it very clear that even if Dato Nelson refuses to discharge himself, he will be willing to attend the Inquiry.
2. That he, be assisted by Datuk KC, as he is not well-versed with inquiry procedures, his rights and will not be able to ask the right questions.
3. That if the Inquiry was video-taped, he wants a copy of it so that he can verify the final transcript of the minutes.
4. That he be accompanied by 2 witnesses to take notes and minutes of the proceedings.
5. That he be allowed to cross-examine any witness produced by the prosecutor and vice versa.
6. That if the above conditions are not met, he will be willing to subject himself to another panel with mutually agreed terms of reference or to an open hearing at an EGM.
Dato Nelson responded as follows:-
1. He will not discharge himself.
2. He does not agree to anyone assisting Dr Lum as this Inquiry is a fact-finding exercise.
3. The Inquiry will not be video-taped but audio-taped and Dr Lum will NOT be given a copy of the tape.
4. He will allow only one observer who cannot take notes or ask questions or advise Dr Lum.
5. He agreed to allow cross-examination of witnesses.
6. He reiterated there was no need to meet Dr Lum and his witnesses.
Dr Lum decided that in view of the above, he WILL NOT subject himself to such an Inquiry.
Dr Lum and his witnesses left thereafter and Dato Nelson proceeded with the Inquiry without Dr Lum’s presence.
It is left to be seen if this will become the first kangaroo court in Malaysian church history. We hope it will not be.
***********************************************************
ADDENDUM – Sequence of events leading to the Inquiry
Many readers are puzzled about what actually happened during the time between Dr Lum’s resignation from the Board of Deacons in November 2008 and the latest Inquiry saga at Damansara Perdana last Saturday.
After Dr Lum’s resignation from the Board of Deacons on 22 November and his subsequent revelations of the wrong-doings in our Church and the misuse of power and church funds in an interview on CT, the BOD set out on a vindictive effort to “crucify” him. Below is the sequence of events relating to his “termination” as a church member and the setting up of an Independent Inquiry chaired by a close long-time friend of SP, Dato Nelson, whose integrity and independence are in question.
20 December 2008 – BOD Notice
BOD put up a Notice on the notice boards at all our church premises to inform the members and worshippers of the erroneous statements and misrepresentations made by Dr Lum in his interview with CT. The Notice mentioned and attempted to clarify 5 issues out of the 23 issues highlighted by Dr Lum.
27 December 2008 - 1st BOD Letter
BOD decided that the season of love was a good time to serve a letter of termination of church membership on Dr Lum. When everyone was still in Christmas mood, Dr Lum received a Christmas gift he never expected from his long-time peers in the Board.
The letter alleged that he has caused erroneous statements and misrepresentations to be published in the public domain and that it has caused confusion, strife and division in the church. They deemed his action as unscriptural and has (quote) “decided to remove his name from the Church Membership Roll” (unquote). In the next paragraph, they stated that they will give him an opportunity to be restored to the fellowship. To do so, he was to call the Church Secretary to meet the BOD.
5 January 2009 – 1st DL Letter
Dr Lum wrote to the BOD to express the disappointment, despair and confusion their letter had caused him and his family and to seek their explanation on the purported erroneous statements and misrepresentations. Dr Lum also asked for their confirmation on the status of his membership due to the ambiguity of the first letter.
12 January 2009 – 2nd BOD Letter
BOD responded that under the Church Constitution, they had the right to discipline members who walk disorderly, departed from the Tenets of Faith and are unrepentant of unscriptural conduct but before they do so, they will give Dr Lum an opportunity to be restored to the Fellowship. Their letter mentioned that an independent body will be set up to hear his explanation and to make recommendation to the BOD whether his actions constituted unscriptural conduct which warrant his removal from the Church Membership Roll.
20 January 2009 – 2nd DL Letter
Dr Lum wrote to the BOD to inquire on the Independent Body and its composition and more importantly, to seek their clarification of the purported erroneous statements and misrepresentations made by him and the actual status on his Church membership.
23 January 2009 – 3rd BOD Letter
BOD Secretary replied to say that they will revert to Dr Lum after their BOD meets to discuss his letter.
3 February 2009 – 4th BOD Letter
The BOD responded that further particulars in respect of the erroneous statements and misrepresentations will be provided in due course. They clarified that the members of the independent body will be appointed from the members of the Church and that they will inform Dr Lum who the members of the independent shall be in due course.
17 February 2009 – Nelson Letter
Dato Nelson wrote to Dr Lum under the Church letterhead that the BOD has constituted an independent inquiry to determine whether the actions by Dr Lum in causing to be published certain matters concerning Calvary Church which had the effect of causing confusion, strife and division in Calvary Church, amounted to unscriptural conduct.
The letter identified Dato Nelson himself as the Chairman with Bro Puan Chen Keck and Sis Peggy Low as the other panel members.
The letter stated that the unscriptural conduct was in regard to statements by Dr Lum in respect of 9 items (copied and pasted from the interview on CT).
23 February 2009 – 3rd DL Letter
Dr Lum wrote to Dato Nelson to express his disappointment that the BOD did not have the courtesy to inform him as to who the Panel of Inquiry members are, despite their assurance that they will do so in their letter dated 3 February 2009.
Dr Lum commented that Dato Nelson’s letter dated 17 February 2009 is technically wrong as Dato Nelson, by signing the letter himself (and not signed by the BOD) has appointed himself and his own panel.
Dr Lum expressed that he is terribly confused by the series of ambiguous letters from the BOD, all of which, exhibits much confusion, inconsistency and incongruity. Therefore, he does not even know if the purpose of the Inquiry is to restore him back to the Church Fellowship or to decide on whether to terminate him. The BOD's continual use of the word "restore" implies that he has already been sacked as a member.
Dr Lum stated his stand that Dato Nelson is disqualified to be a member of the panel as his impartiality and independence are in question, the reasons being that at the recent EGM, Dato Nelson spoke strongly in support of the Senior Pastor and he was instrumental in helping the Senior Pastor receive the ‘Datukship’ title.
Dr Lum provided the list of his 8 witnesses (Dr Nah, Datuk KC, Bro Sam Ho, Bro Hong Meng, Bro Raymond Cheeng, Bro Teng, Bro Siew Chyuan and Bro Adrian Lee), 2 observers/witnesses (Bro Cheam and Bro Alan Chan) and requested for the presence of 13 other witnesses (SP Prince Guneratnam, Pas Steven, Sis Bernadette, Bro Patrick Wong, Sis Pam Guneratnam, Pas Chris, Sis Jo Tay, Pas Adeline Koh, Bro Stephen Liu, Bro Edward Rajasingam, Bro Han, Bro Philip Tan and Pas Peter).
Dr Lum also expressed his opinion that the Panel of Inquiry should include representatives from the AG General Council and that the Inquiry should be recorded, with a copy of the recording given to him.
27 February 2009 – 4th DL Letter
Dr Lum wrote to Dato Nelson to state that he has not been informed as to whether the BOD is producing any witnesses for the inquiry and to furnish him the names of the witnesses (if any) by that night. Dr Lum also clarified that being a medical doctor, he is unfamiliar with inquiry procedures and therefore, he will be bringing Datuk KC Lim to assist him.
28 February 2009
Inquiry at Damansara Perdana.
CT Note:
Out of the 5 issues mentioned in the BOD Notice, 3 issues were re-stated in the Nelson letter with 6 new issues added in. One can only presume that the other 2 issues in the BOD Notice are no longer deemed to have caused confusion, strife and division in the Church and/or both issues are the truth. In total, out of the 23 issues highlighted in the interview on CT, only 9 issues are stated in the Nelson letter. The remaining 14 issues were not mentioned. One can only presume that the BOD are unable to dispute the truth of these 14 issues. CT shares the views of Dr Lum that all the 23 issues ought to be brought out for the Inquiry instead of just 9 selected issues.
It is interesting to note that 2 of the most important witnesses that Dr Lum requested for, namely SP Prince Guneratnam and Sis Pam Guneratnam did not show up on Saturday. Their testimonies under oath and before men and God, would have been most crucial and interesting. Alas, the truth may never be known.
The choice of Dato Nelson as Chairman of the Independent Panel of Inquiry is the silliest decision, the BOD and SP (as Chairman of the BOD) can make. Almost every long-time member of Calvary Church knows that Dato Nelson is a good buddy of SP. Every member present in the last EGM heard Dato Nelson spoke up strongly in support of SP. He also criticised the concerned members for questioning SP. The BOD knows that Dato Nelson was instrumental in helping SP receive his Datukship title. Lastly (and surprisingly), many members know that Dato Nelson is an avid 3D/4D lottery punter.
Appointing such a person with questionable impartiality and independence (and with debatable or unscriptural conduct), to chair an Independent Inquiry to determine whether Dr Lum who is a highly respected, long-serving deacon and who recently graduated with a Masters in Divinity, is guilty of unscriptural conduct is a joke, to say the least.
Dr Lum and his witnesses praying
before going in for the Inquiry.
This certainly does not look like
a mob which the alternate blog
anticipated.
200 comments:
PG & A KANGAROO COURT
PG-BODs sacked Dr Lum from membership of Calvary Church recently.
The reasons – for giving erroneous information and causing confusion and division in the church.
PG-BOD found that they are unable to bring the matter to a close and has set up a Panel (a Kangaroo Court) of three members of the church to review the case this morning.
PG-BOD have yet to provide a decent explanation what they mean by “giving Erroneous information, causing confusion and division in the church”.
To be able to make the charges hold, PG-BODs has to do the following:
1. Establish what exactly Dr Lum has erroneously stated and supporting evidence and documents must be provided for the congregation to view.
2. Define what is meant by “causing confusion”. As far as the TTG is concerned they have not suffered any confusion. TTG are clear as daylight as to what is going on in the church.
Or is PG-BOD concerned that the rest of the Calvarites, apart from TTG, are in total disarray? My God! You mean to say that the statements made by Dr Lum have caused other Calvarites to run around like a chickens without theirs heads not knowing what is true and what is untrue? Are they so spiritually immature. Then shame on you PG! They are products of your own making and you rightly deserve them.
And what percentage of Calvarites, may I ask, needs to be affected before you can say there is confusion in the church- 10%, 50% or 70%?? Have you counted ?? Then please do!! And where in the constitution is “confusion” defined??
3. State when Dr. Lum caused the division in the church. As I recollect the problem started with a number of people from the congregation expressing their unhappiness over the years with the autocratic manner with which PG conducted the AGM and the lack of transparency regarding the financial report. The number of these people snowballed over the years and became maximum in March 2008 after another poorly Chaired AGM by PG.
I would like the PG-BODs to explain when and how did Dr. Lum cause a division? The problem has been simmering for quite a number of years already.
In truth, if anyone has caused a division in Calvary Church it has to be the sheer arrogance, pride, pettiness and vindictiveness of PG by refusing to satisfactorily address the concerns genuinely brought up by the TTG group. And who has the most opportunity to confuse the congregation? You are the one who has control of the pulpit from where lies, half-lies and spiritual arm-twisting occur.
You (PG) should have been the one reviewed by the KANGAROO COURT this morning.
LET’S SOLVE THE PROBLEM ONCE AND FOR ALL !!
BRING EVERYTHING INTO THE OPEN!!
IF YOU HAVE THE TRUTH SHOW IT!!
SURELY YOUR OWN SUPPORTERS WOULD LIKE TO KNOW TOO !!
How about a copy of the BOD minutes, full (not abridged form) financial report to all members of the Church.
If nothing wrong we will go off peaceful and you can be free to do what you want.
CALVARY’S 1ST KANGAROO COURT
Another new milestone for PG-BODS, everybody say hurray!
......Calvary’s First Kangaroo Court
Set up to review Dr. Lum’s case.
There are a few things about Calvary Church that I find hilarious when I think about them
......... governance, transparency, truth, Conflict of interest, Integrity, CBT, cronyism, nepotism and the list just goes on........
Dr. Lum was elected on FIVE OCASSIONS
........into the BOD by the congregation
And he has served a good eleven years
.....with no official complaints by anybody before.
This is itself a testimony of his leadership in Calvary
Now PG-BODs wants to remove him from the membership role.
Why??
Because he stood up for what he believed?
Come on PG-BODs, grow up !!
You mean you all can’t tolerate people with different views?
He refused to be gagged by PG?
He was elected by the congregation,
.....and he has a responsibility to keep them informed.
Are putting him on trial for that?
Nothing smacks more vindictive than this.
You are dealing with a Church leader / ex-deacon here.
So don’t set up a Kangaroo Court to “trial” him.
In the Government Service we never get people at the lower level of hierarchy
....to judge someone at a higher level.
For example we never form a panel of Associate Professors
....To judge the performance of a Professor.
This is simple Professional Etiquette that we extend
...to one another in the academic fraternity.
Dr. Lum has served 11 years in the BODs,
...the Body that governs all aspects of the church.
This represents the highest level of leadership in Calvary Church.
His position should therefore not be reviewed by members of the church
...lower than that of the Board of Deacons !!
Shame on you, PG
You are a Tan Sri and you don’t know about Professional Etiquette.
I thought you had some class!
Dr. Lum’s issue is a small issue !
By trying sack him, PG-BOD, you are being childishly vindictive and you are overdoing it.
It’s like sending a nuclear bomb to destroy Nibong Tebal, wherever that is.
The power that Dr. Lum has is only ONE VOTE at the AGM.
Brother Nelson. I have a great respect for you. You were from the Government Service. Don't dirty your hands in this sordid business! You were the one who told me that God should be pronounced as God and not Qawd.
DR. LUM’S INQUIRY IS DONE IN REVERSE
When do you ever sack someone FIRST
AND THEN
Set up a panel of enquiry to find out the facts ???
Isn’t that dealing with the case backwards?
Is it because after PG-BODs sacked Dr. Lum
Then then realised there are insufficient evidence/reasons.
To hold up in the Law Courts ?
And so, PG-BODs holds an inquiry,
which they say is for facts finding,
Which they hope will substantiate the sacking.
Is PG-BOD so inefficient???
I will not be surprised.
ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE IN CALVARY THESE DAYS
With PG around
Dato Nelson is just not suitable to be the Chairman of the Inquiry Committee. He is too close and too blindly supportive of Prince. Moreover, he has been seen repeatedly buying 3D and 4D few times a week. Gambler as he should be decent enough to recuse himself. Deacons and Sn Pastor must not be so blind to use a doubtful character to be a judge. And yet BOD and SP tend to use people of questionable character to serve. Even BOD is not neutral. Number of them have proven vested interest. This how SP turns the church to a business where Pam heads a charging fee counselling CLM, Jim heads the lucrative CCM where congregation are repeatedly asked to buy SP's tape messages of propaganda, his once 'darling' to head high fee charging Education Resource. Calvarites, be vigilant!!
EARNEST MESSAGE TO BOTH PRO-PG AND PRO-TTG GROUP:
Dear CT Readers,
As an Associate Member, I am unable to vote my conscience at the forthcoming CC AGM or at EGMs. I am truly saddened by the contrived Enquiry Panel experienced by Dr. Lum Siew Heng and the preceeding events that have transpired in the past 12 months. I have been attending CC since 1991and LG since 1995. Dr. Lum, you will always have my deepest respect and I would love to meet you one day. Please contact me at my email chriskl@ pc.jaring.my.
I have also been a listed company director and rose to the position of Deputy Group Managing Director of a medium sized PLC for 17 years. I teach Risk Management and Corporate Governance to the Institute of Chartered Public Accountants Singapore (ICPAC), Singapore Accounting Academy (SAA) and National University of Singapore (NUS). Since 2008, I have now taken early retirement to go into more meaningful spiritual pursuits.
I must confess that these past 6 months at CC has left me very baffled that very mature and experienced leaders have chosen to keep silent due to misplaced loyalties and respect and worse have condoned blatant supression of member's legitimate concerns and instead have focussed on a church wide witch hunt. To the pro PG group, I say be FOREWARNED, you passitivity is causing grave turmoil in the church and as Watchmen (Ezekial 33), you will be held accountable for your actions or lack of therein.
God's amazing grace and mercy resulted in a personal transformational encounter last year in China and after many months of prayer, fasting and reflection, I feel that I am unable to effectively contribute to CC and its ancilliary ministries. So with a heavy heart, I will leave CC with immediate effect. Not in anger, not in disgust but rather in sadness. I perceive that we are "having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof" 2 Tim 3:5. Please be reminded that the Second coming of our precious Lord time is very near and that the Harvest is truly plentiful but the labourers are few. Just in the past four months, I have had three new "spiritual" dependants to nurture and there is so much to do in so little time. Jeremiah 9: 21 NIV is a dire warning to the previous falen state of Isreal and sadly applies to our beloved CC church.
"Death(spiritual) has climbed in through the windows and has entered our fortressess; it has cut off the children from the streets and the young men from the public squares"(our young people are disillusioned and lack the living water because the fountain has stopped flowing)
I have written to the TTG group that they should come up with more updates on the main body of the blogsite but suspend this comment section because sadly not everyone here (pro TTG) has been responsible in what they write and are guilty of stumbling the younger bretheren in the faith!
Jesus said in Matthew 5:29-30 "If your right eye causes you to sin, gourge it out and throw it away. It is better to lose one part than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away"
Please do not be guilty of allowing the Accuser of the Brethren and Father of Lies to use the noble intentions of this blogsite to cast aspersions and cause more slander, back biting and mud slinging to the detriment of genuine members of CC! CT too must be ACCOUNTABLE.
To be consistent with my stand, this will be my last contribution to CT but I will choose instead to share more at BERITA CALVARY of the many exciting things that Father God is doing worldwide to encourage the brethren. I have never been so excited to see how our amazing God is working miracles and causing a great quickening in the hearts of unbelievers even in our own beloved country. Just last week, I was so blessed to see my 11 y o son be water baptised with every tribe and peoples in this land! If anyone would like to chat with me more, you can always reach me via email previously mentioned. I would to meet anyone for a cup of "teh tarik" to share of the great works of our precious Lord in Shen Zhou(God's Land - name given to (Zhong Guo) Middle Kingdom over 5000 years ago). God willing, I will leave for Shen Zhou very shorthly and hope to share more on BERITA CALVARY for the edification of the ekklesia when I return. I wish all CT readers God's richest blessing of all of you. MARANATHA!
February 28, 2009 9:46 PM
Looks like we dont expect much from the leadership of CC anymore. If these are how things are done, do you think your other spiritual needs can be sincerely and genuinely met? Somemore a big banner is being placed somewhere in Bukit Jalil that THERE IS HOPE. How ironical.
I'm shocked to learn that both Senior Pastor and Deacons have no discretion in choosing Nelson and two others as Committee of Inquiry to trial Dr Lum. Poor Dr Lum who have been with Calvary for 30-40 yrs and served 11 years as Deacon can be so cruelly dismissed instanteously as usher head and communion server by Pastor Timothy Ong (definitely with SP's approval) and now unjustly sacked as member by Deacons.
Proper trial can only be Elders or AG. Oh! Sorry no Elders in Calvary as no one is suitable according to Prince. Please accord Dr Lum a fair trial. As Christian, he deserves a better and humane treatment. Even the imperfect worldly system has greater decency than Calvary Church.
Prince and deacons, please step down if you can't exercise Christian values. Surely, Dr Lum with these years in church and in service, can't be treated like these. Pastors and deacons, shame on you for you have no guts to be true to God and his children.
Shame..shame..shame..is this how the church being operated?
1. this is gross abuse--abuse of power, abuse of human rights, abuse of spirituality.
2. why divert attention and inquiry on DR LUM?
3. where is sp, no mentioned of his presence at all, who is he now?
4. why is he not interested in this inquiry?
5. why deacon H. sent forwarded email to non calvarites and calvarites to read the cu/ck?
6. what's wrong with Calvary today? if cu/ck can be endorsed by calvary deacons and sent and ask people to read, why not calvary today?
7. why current auditor Ch-- also forwarded email to both calvarites and non calvarites to read and support the cu/ck??
8. again, what's wrong to read and express concerns in calvary today?
9. why is this so bias? why side-track on Dr Lum instead of SP and family?
10. why all the pastors and associate pastors treat fellow church members or human being like that ?
11. who is Dato N---, i dont know him but I heard he buy empat ekor, tiga D, i dont know what is 3D (honestly) but i know this is something about buying for prize winning....this type of personality also can be a chairman , why cc so low standard in terms of morality? and spirituality and ethic?
Just got to know that there are proof that CK and CU are endorsed by Calvary Church leadership. If not, why current Deacon H and Auditor C forwarded email message urging Calvarites to read these blogs - full of curses on families who stand for Truth, Transparencies and Governance.
The blog master and most commenters are mere agents who serve the larger interest of church vested leaders. Shame on you!
Dear Dr Christopher
We are in the world of blogging, your repeated call to suspend the comment is not so appropriate, we need to hear the voices of the people in the church, hence this forum. many of them suffered in silene for many years, they have no one to turn to, at least now, we see many of them coming forward to express their grievances.
CT had been moderating those comments, I am close follower of this blog, i felt that they had done a very good job . some comments which is 'bad' need to be published bcoz, the administrator cannot be so bias unless those full of curses, then , i felt it shoulod not be published becoz it does not benefit anyone anyway!
You may have your comments but others too..so i fullu support CT for its current state.
Do continue to blog and enjoy..
DR Lum,
Continue to stand up for truth. Tell more. Don't be afraid.
Bec' you have chosen to tell the misuse of funds, you now suffer at the hand of your fellow deacons and Pastors. They can take away your positions and membership. But, don't let them take away your spirit.
I believe in you.
Isn't these misuse of funds? - Transfer 200K to CIM, 15K for Jackie Chan's fitness club, pay Dr Guynes USD 10K to chair EGM, pay travel expenses for granddaughter and deacon's son, receiving foreign love offerings without disclosing to deacons, buy Volvo S90 followed by Civic with love gift from Robert Lim's church, buy expensive house for children in TTDI and Bangsar, build CCC at 200M etc..etc.
Dr Lum, you should not be in trial. Senior Pastor and deacons should be the ones in trial. Form a tribunal to trial them!
An article from Joe Griffin Ministries, 2001.
Ichabod: The Glory Is Gone: Ichabod in Israel: the Lord’s Critique of Eli, 1 Sam 2:27-
31,34; Its Application to the Failed Pastors of America
19- If Levitical priests and Christian pastors fail to communicate the principles of the
plan of God in their respective dispensations, including those that restrain the sinful
nature, then ultimately the people will degenerate into evil.1 Such is now the case in
America and such was the case in Israel in the time of Eli and his “sons of Belial.”
20- The Lord placed a curse on the house of Ithamar, decreeing that it would not forever
hold the office of high priest and the priesthood in Israel. Eli gets dressed down by
the Lord in:
1 Samuel 2:27 - Then a man of God [ an unnamed
prophet ] came to Eli and said to him, “Thus says the Lord, ‘Did I
not indeed reveal Myself to the house of your father [ Aaron ]
when they were in Egypt in bondage to Pharaoh’s house?
v. 28 - ‘And did I not choose them from all the tribes of Israel to be
My priests, to go up to My altar, to burn incense, to carry an ephod
before Me; and did I not give to the house of your father all the fire
offerings of the sons of Israel?
v. 29 - ‘Why do you kick [ fu^B^B* / baat /: negative volition toward
divine mandates ] at My sacrifice and at My offering which I have
commanded in My dwelling, and honor your sons above Me, by
making yourselves fat with the choicest of every offering of My
people Israel?’
v. 30 - “Therefore the Lord God of Israel declares, ‘I did indeed
say that your house [ Eli ] and the house of your father [ Ithamar ]
should walk before Me forever’; but now the Lord declares, ‘Far be
it from Me—for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who
despise Me will be lightly esteemed.’”
21- Hophni and Phinehas, and by his failure in leadership, Eli, had failed to honor the
Lord in their assignments at the Tabernacle, reviewed by the prophet in verses 28
and 29. The word “honor” is the Piel participle followed by the Piel imperfect of the
verb:
db@K* / kaveth / - honor; glory.
22- Kaveth is the root word of its derivative, kavoth: glory. Those who glorify God will
be glorified by Him. Eli, Hophni, and Phinehas could only glorify God by faithfully,
consistently, and precisely performing the duties associated with their office of
priest. To deviate from their assignment for personal gain was considered by the
Lord to not only be a failure to glorify Him but a manifestation of a mental attitude
of contempt. The English translation is “despise” and is the Qal active participle of
the verb:
hz*B* baza / - to despise; disdain; hold in contempt.
23- The basic meaning is “to accord little worth to something.” Such an attitude
undervalues something, e.g., the duties of the priesthood, or someone, e.g., the Lord
who commissioned them to the honorable position of priest and assigned them the
responsibilities of teaching doctrine through the ritual system instituted by Him.
24- The verb reveals an attitude of disobedience to divine will that resulted in an
outward display of contempt. The exact opposite of this concept is kaveth, to honor.
25- These three men have “kicked” against the mandates of their office and instead
submitted to the desire and will of the sinful nature. The result of such thoughts,
decisions, and actions by those who shepherd God’s people is demotion. The
English translation is “lightly esteemed” and is the Qal imperfect of the verb:
ll^q^q * / qalal / - to be lowered in position of importance; to be cursed.
26- This word implies that the person cursed has been stripped of his function and as a
result suffers a loss of prestige. It implies the condition that results from breaking a
covenant, the details of which are clearly reviewed by the prophet in verses 28 and
29.
27- The curse is imposed upon Eli, his sons, and the line of Ithamar:
1 Samuel 2:31 - ‘Behold, the days are coming when I will break your
strength and the strength of your father’s house so that there will not
be an old man in your house.’
1 Samuel 2:34 - ‘And this will be the sign to you which shall come
concerning your two sons, Hophni and Phinehas: on the same day
both of them shall die.’
28- Pastors who do not properly shepherd the flock assigned to them by God will come
under severe punishment from their senior-ranking Authority, the Lord Jesus Christ.
29- The pastors of America have chosen to ignore their calling which is to study and
teach the flock assigned to them. The end result is a population that is ignorant of
the Word of God and therefore has no inventory to consult in time of crisis.
30- The response to such a crisis can be a restorative revival which is the divine intent, or
it can be a reaction that intensifies the two categories of negative volition, (1)
increased asceticism or (2) intensified licentiousness.
31- Guilt motivates increased asceticism. This includes those who are already involved
in “good works” motivated by energy of the flesh. They calculate that they have not
done enough and thus increase their human-good activities.
32- Fear motivates intensified licentiousness. This includes those who are already
involved in an immoral lifestyle. They calculate that they are going to die and
determine to “eat, drink, and be merry” in case tomorrow they do die.
33- The absence of divine thought creates a vacuum into which is sucked the cosmic lie
and after this spreads abroad, the nation drifts into spiritual decline. The challenge
and incentive for recovery is provided by national discipline.
As i continue to follow this blog, looks like more worms creeping out of the cans..
1. we have a sp who drop towel--lake club
2. we have a 4ekor/3D follower as chairman of II(independent inquiry)
3. we have clm chairlady who had pre-marital issues
4. we have sap who is the private owner of bookstore--calvary bookcorner
5. we have deacons with vested interest in biz. from the church.
Huhuhu..more juicy news and report coming out..how come so low standard??
WHO SHOULD BE SUBJECTED TO A COMMITTEE OF ENQUIRY?
WHISTLEBLOWER OR ABUSER OF FUNDS?
Dr Lum did not benefit a sen!
SP benefitted !!!!
JESUS WAS TRIED IN A KANGAROO COURT
A kangaroo court is where a fair trial is definitely not going to happen.
Jesus was tried by a kangaroo court
It was called the High Council.
Which comprised Caiaphas (Chairman), Ananias, Pharisees, Sadducee and Religious Teachers.
These were the very people Jesus SERIOUSLY OFFENDED when He SPOKE THE TRUTH !
DO YOU THINK JESUS GOT A FAIR TRIAL ??
What about Dr. Lum? Will he get a fair trial??
PG and the BODs were OFFENDED by Dr. Lum’s revelations.
PG-BODs have already sacked Dr. Lum.
Yet PG-BOD requested for Dato Nelson to be the Chairman of the Panel.
And it is a known fact that Brother Nelson is a GOOD FRIEND of PG !
DO YOU THINK DR. LUM WILL GET A FAIR TRIAL ???
So you think PG has got the character to let the truth be known at his expense.
Hardly.............his heart is just not that big, if there is one at all.
Heh, clm, ccm and education resource are pale shadow to a bigger and grandeur schemes - imagine someone will be Presidents of CCC Institute, Admin Block and CCC University. If you think of applying, sorry vacancies already filled up well in advanced.
But, you can still pay now to build these institutions. Not too late in Malaysia. You pay and they enjoy, all in the name of Christianity.
In US, many of these shemes are already under investigation or close shop as only God knows them and their motives. They can cheat all of us but not God Almighty.
How many people learn lessons from history though they are in history lessons? Think, pray before you act. God wants us to be wise in this wicked age.
Dear TTG supporters and pro SP-BOD
The moral and professional standing of a serving deacon and auditor is called to question if they actively promote a stinking alternative blogs.
Each passing year witnesses a greater degradation of leadership standard. Why? A prince who behaves as king, leaving no room for King of kings to work in each believer. In due season, the KING will come. Watch out for next change...gone is winter, here come spring. God bless.
SOME PERTINENT QUESTIONS ALL CONCERNED MEMBERS SHOULD ASK-- HAVE YOU?
1. SP IS the CEO of Calvary Church, if he does not take responsibility of the serious TTG issues confronting the church and the integrity of his Office in particular, WHO then is accountable?
2.A lot of Dishonest, Misrepresentation, Misleading
matters over the decades have been unearthed,
discovered and finally exposed by members & CT
WHY isn’t a Special Tribunal set-up to investigate the following?:
i) The closure of Calvary Kindergarten
ii) The autonomous existence & management of
Extended Ministries
iii) The ABANDONMENt of the ‘original’ Church
building project named :
Calvary New Church Building’ aka CNBC after it
was commissioned and approved in 1996.( there
are material documents that SP & BOD claimed
vision and confirmation of God, much the same
tactic he has used in the 'sales pitch' to the BOD
& Congregation to justify CCC)
iv) The infamous Questionable Prayer which was
taken as ‘voting’ approval of RM150 Million,
as well as the staggering RM100 Million
“MISTAKE” of the cost estimates by the Architect. ( And many other LACK of due diligence process in Decision making, procurement, etc)
v) The recent case on the Return of RM1.4
MILLION by CIM/CARED ( SP’s personal Ministry)
to the Church, after claiming no wrong doing at
the EGM--which used and wasted Church's funds
for Professional services engaged to defend CIM
vi) The Persecution of the Dr. Lum by removing his
Membership in the Church for unsubstantiated
allegations against him. And after discovering
their high handed action, SP& BOD acted quickly
for damage control, and called for a ‘Hearing’ in
a poor attempt to vindicate themselves of any
wrong doing/ injustice, and to avoid the wrath
of all and sundry who believe and uphold
TTG and justice.
v) And a long list of other despicable acts.
Isn’t it STRANGE how fast ( within a week) and efficient SP & BOD can set-up an “'Independent’ Body” to look into what they considered as unscriptural conduct for Dr.Lum’s stand for truth! ?
YET, absolutely nothing is done to look into the many truly Unscriptural Conduct of the SP/CEO highlighted by concerned Members by way of proper and legitimate channels : from formal/official letters to appeals and even signed Petition, and submission of Resolution to call for setting up of a Truth Commission. WHY?
Is the head of CC practicing the rule of Zambawe, North Korea or Myanmar? By the way, sad but true, even in these countries where their nations suffer
and are in ruins under their oppressive ‘leadership’ for decades, (they live most lavishly and with $$$ stash-up overseas ) one still find a pocket of loyal, faithful and happy citizens (not unlike in CC too) who worship them as their ‘god’, even though, the whole world could see their draconian ways.
3. WHAT will truly take the guess work out and settle those "false & malicious" allegations which both the 'loyalists' and the BOD claimed have been leveled at SP & SAP, JG, PG? Here are some Questions to ponder over:
WHY wouldn’t their STIPENDS be made known to the Congregation?
WHY not make a Statutory Declaration of their individual ASSETS mandatory, if not, voluntarily? (which of course, the latter will speak volumes for transparency & integrity) After all, even all Civil Servants are required to do so. Besides, at the EGM, BOD has confirmed "speculations" that he indeed has overseas Bank accounts, and his love offerings and gifts need not be reported to the church.
WHY, if there is really nothing to hide, is the call for Truth, Transparency & good Governance resisted
so vigorously and at such great cost to the Body of Christ?
Finally, the Q you have to deal with by yourself:
Can you choose to be indifferent to the present state of affairs, or worst, to condone it all? OR Will you stand-up to be a voice for TTG in the name of the Lord, and be counted at the coming AGM?
Dear Calvarites
The time has come for you to make a decision on who is to be blamed for the church saga.
CK and CU blame it on TTG members. Pastors/coachedspeakers blame it on the devils in the church.
BOD blame it on Dr Lum and his interview.
Who is the cause or source of all these problems. Were they created by TTG members. I don't see that. They just talk of issues created by Senior Pastor. It's about extended ministries and CIM. TTG people never start them. I don't even think Dr Lum started them.
If it's SP who started them, why should others (TTG and Dr Lum) be blamed for them. SP must be man enough to take 101% responsibility for the whole saga. Even after one year - March 1 2008 was the day he declared to the whole leadership that whatever you've given, the church need not have to give you an accountability - he did not come forward to resolve the problem
Instead he allows it to fester. He blames. He accuses. He finds scapegoats. He said people are jealous and envious. CK/CU joined in the chorus to sing the same song - that TTG throw wild accusation and lies at SP and BOD. All are wrong except him and BOD.
Come on. Please don't behave as kids. Calvarites are not stupid and blind. They have the experience to see. Majority of worshippers and leadership support the issues of TTG. TTG is not asking them to support them. They merely ask them to take a look at the issues. They are also not going all out to woo support.
Calvarites, AGM is coming. Please take a stand and speak up. It is your Lord's church. You speak not because of anything but everything for Christ.
The bible said:
1. We are sinner--confess and we are forgiven,
2. When we sinned--confess and we are forgiven,
3. When we CONTINUE to sin--confess and we are still FORGIVEN
4. But, when we CONTINUOUSLY to sin--Are we continuosly forgiven??
( the ball is in your court--ask yourself)
I do not need 'the Professional Curser' from cu/ck to reverse and dissect my comment--anything come out from their mouth and heart---'STINK'.
PG – ENOUGH IS ENOUGH
THE KANGAROO COURT -
If it was not fair to Jesus
It is not fair to Dr. Lum
This is another manifestation of PG’s oppressive nature in his kingship over Calvary Church.
Dr. Lum is a Deacon elected by the Congregation.
If, in his opinion, something is not right,
He has the FULL RIGHT to try to tell the church.
IN FACT IT IS HIS DUTY TO DO SO !
And the congregation should sack him for not doing so !
PG has tried to GAG Dr. Lum and failed and we are witnessing PG's rage being played out.
DR. LUM has been sacked for carrying out a duty,
WHICH THE OTHER BODs HAVE MISERABLY FAILED TO DO !!
The congregation should summit a resolution to remove the other 6 deacons for not keeping the church well-informed.
In my opinion if the truth can easily vindicate the people shrouded in doubt,
WHY SHOULD THEY KEEP ON HIDING THEM ??
Unless the information they claim to be lies.... ARE TRUE !!
The present saga in Calvary Church can be trace back to
ONE CENTRAL FIGURE AND ONE CENTRAL PROBLEM :
TO PG, for his pride, arrogance and bullheadedness,and
TO COVERING UP OF TRUTH by the same person.
THERE IS REALLY ONLY ONE THING THATS TO DO
.... to stop the downward spiral:
GET PG TO REVEAL THE WHOLE TRUTH.
It is as simple as that !!
How about it All Calvarite, whether pro-TTG or pro-PG or on the fence, let's do this, once and for all, clear the air so that we can all get on with our spiritual walk. The power to do this is with the congregation.
I forsee that the first people to oppose this will be PG & BODs. Bless them.
2Co 5:17 ..old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
Calvary Church has to be protected from a one-man CONTROL & ABUSE.
We need a new administrative structure.
Plural leadership at the top should be the order of the day (Avoids a one-man domination)
A divide should exist between the Administrative and Pastoral Sections (to protect the finances).
Billy Graham faced no finance scandal during his life-time service to the Lord. This was because he himself recommended that all finances, including his own pay, were handled by a separate finance team that does not answer to Billy Graham.
If only Calvary Church had a independent finance team, that does not answer to PG, Calvary church be totally free of any financial scandal today.
Proposed New Calvary Church Administrative Structure (Post-PG Era):
1.Spiritual Leadership =
3 – 5 Elders
2.Management Board =
Elders, Administrator, Snr.Pastor,
a.Pastoral Section
Senior Pastor- in-charge
Associate Pastors
Assistant Pastors
b.Administrative Section
Administrator – in-charge
Treasurer
Property manager
Resource manager
A FAMILY AGM, once in 40 years !!
Breakdown in communication has been blamed for the following:
International conflicts, racial disharmony, divorce in marriage and the generation gap.
Within the family I have always allow every member some say
Even a toddler has rights.
AGMs in Calvary Church is real laugh.
The leaders are just shamelessness and childishness.
They stingily give 2 minutes to explain something controversial.
Then a legalistic guardian (was it a pastor?) switches off the mike.
All these typical petty behavioural patterns of PG.
Even at international conferences we get 15 minutes.
Doesn’t PG know how to apply a little bit of discretion
and give more time to important issues ??
But PG reacts in only one predictable way.
SHUT THEM UP AND SHUT THEM OUT !!
Why?? Scared of the truth?
He should know by now it is impossible to suppress truth.
Its like trying to submerge a 100 balloon under water.
The TRUTH WILL ALWAYS SURFACE EVENTUALLY!
Come on.
In 2009, lets have, for ONCE in 40 years!
AN AGM THAT IS MORE FAMILY-LIKE.
Please grow out of your paranoia.
ALL IN A FAMILY
If my family earns about 65K/mth In Calvary,
I too won’t want to retire as a SP.
Excluding perks mind you.
I’ll hang on in Calvary, man...TTG or no TTG !
And Calvarites are so generous.
They are taught so well – once you give your money
you have no right to ask any questions !
And the Calvarites practise blind obedience and obey,
Followed by blind faith.
In my opinion it is just plain foolishness.
And I feel so embarassed by Such christians.
Luk 16:8 For the children of this world are ...
.... wiser than the children of light.
I am of a strong conviction
That the standards of the secular
Has, is and will be higher than that of Calvary Church
Mat 10:24 "No pupil is greater than his teacher.
Your standard cannot surpass the standard of your teacher.
So choose a good teacher.
If not, change your teacher.
CU has finally posted up my 3rd comment on the same questsions, but sadly, they dare not answer my questions..instead,they tried to divert attention to the moving forward program. I don't know about the rest, but I think it is useless to have a move forward program when the current issues are not even addressed and answered! It is more like avoiding and covering up the real problem by asking people to ignore it and move on...In conclusion, I am guessing that either CU either:
a) Does not know the answers to my questions, or
b) Knows the answers but dare not answer it as the truth hurts for them!
Hello 4 tails
hahaha.. very interesting la..you can also provide up-to-date service for Dato N.--- BTW.. blogging here is very interesting and meaningful. huh..can learn something that i dont learn in the church. You know what, can you also help to provide the "KTM" result argh? O..what does KTM stand for? KUDA, TOTO and MAGNUM. So, that maybe Dato N can save sometime checking the newspaper for result instead, now that you provide a faster result , and maybe he can spend some time reading bible lar..
How come calvary church condone practice of gambling too? Somemore he is now chairman of independent inquiry.
So this confirms what Dr Lum said about how meetings are conducted. No notes, no witness and no proof so after that, SP can give his own story about what transpired in the meeting. no one can proof his version wrong. Your words against his. he will now say he is not a part of this whole Inquiry becoz he put his "god-father" as chairman to protect him.
Dr. Lum should not be surprised at their actions. It's just like how AGM & EGM was last year.
Now is the Time.....Yes PG ..Time's Up !!
Since u are the main reason for all the problems in CC , dont you think you either stand up and tell the Truth or step down and leave so that the Church can move on .
But then again ...RM 65k+ per mth for u and family is too much to let go, eh ? The bible says ..if u gain the whole world ( and all the $$$$ ) but loses your soul...is that worth it ? or it does not bother u at all ....enjoy first ....where else can you and family get so much money for directing people around !
But then again ,if You are truly a man of God and a shepherd to the people in Calvary Church,and to see all that is happening, doesn't it grieve your heart to see the church in disunity and disillusioned ? or you cant even be bothered ? For u ..its only "me , Myself and I and my wife , children and grandchildren !!!
How sad it is to see my beloved Calvary Church come to such a state ...I used to be so proud to say I belong to Calvary but now ...:(
And To the other Pastors of CC , I have lost faith in you too ...the people whom I used to love and respect .
And last but not least ....BOD ...I have given up on all of u ..the very people whom we have elected to represent us , have let us down very badly...instead of telling us the Truth , have hidden it from us all !!!!!!!!Shame on you !
let Dr Lum have a fair trial IN FRONT of all church members and not in a kangaroo court behind closed doors with 3 so called independent people. If church leadership wants to inquire more abt Dr Lum's actions, do it during AGM. The kangaroo court helmed by Nelson and the other 2 are a sham as these ppl are obviously on PG's side and are all yes men/ yes woman. Can't believe church is now behaving like MAFIA, what a disgrace!
Who the copy cat blogs trying to bluff? Do you think they are ordinary church members? How come what they know like faster than CNN news? Church ordinary leaders also don’t know about Dr. Lum’s inquiry they already know. Get news from where? I see that CK put up their notice on Dr. Lum’s case on Thursday, 26th. Then CU put the post on Friday. 29th. They talk like they know what will happen on Sat. Looks like they all plan already how to put Dr. Lum in difficult position and then they can tell church members…..we told you so. Dr. Lum & TTG will do like this and like that. SP, BOD, CK, CU, we all know you are all in this together and your acting is very good. But nowadays many of us also become smarter abit.
Charles who is the creator of CU is really a coward and a liar, not only does he not dare to answer any of the questions, again, he tried to divert attention by asking other non related questions...I guess that means then that the answers to my questions are all a YES, YES and YES. Thanks for clearing the air, Charles.
1. I was wondering what is the most appropriate SCRIPTURAL WORD that ck/cu can offer and support to be given to the readers with regard to gambling practices (KTM) of the Independent Chairman--Dato N. ?
2. What is the unscriptural conduct committed by a Christian who is suppose to be a 'Judge' for our beloved terminated member and resigned deacon Dr Lum?
3. What is the 'unscriptural conduct' of SP for dropping towel?
4. what is the unscritural conduct for clm chairlady for her pre-marital issues?
5. what is the unscriptural conduct for ex-deaconness who was once rumoured to be involved in some 'affair'?
6. what is the unscriptural conduct for money transferred from one account to another account and another account?
7. what is the unscriptural conduct for sap who use the church to own her own biz?
8. what is the unscriptural conduct of current auditor and current deacon who forward email to both non calvarites and calvarites endorsing the blog--cu/ck, inviting people to read the blog.
9. what is the unscriptural conduct for associates who was behaving very 'brutally' towards all those witnesses and Dr Lum on Saturday morning --- the unforgettable 28/2/09)
Finally, I too call for a Independent Inquiry to pursue all the above.
I remember during the EGM in August 2008, with all issues unresolved though the so call independent criminal lawyer and accountant presented their finding without providing members any documentary proof that all finding are 100% accurate. The criminal lawyer did mention that whatever finding is only as good as document given to him at that moment only..he some sort like leave room for doubt that there maybe document or what..? he also mentioned that no one can see the document ? why so secret? honest christian should be very honest, anyone should be given opportunity to see the document then.
I was reading the 'Calvary News regular publication' yesterday, and I noticed that some current deacons still seeking for another term.. how can? One of the members had asked all the current deacons to step down and resign for their ignorance, irresponsible and incompetency and for causing such a mass together with SP and SAP in the church during the EGM in August 2008. I support his call and now am calling all those who seek reelection to resign and we would not vote for you, shame on you!
One day, as I was chatting with some friends in the church, they told me that those who are not 'happy' with the church can leave the church. This people echoed SP during his sermon on Sundays and leadship meeting asking worshipper to leave the church and yet what the pastors preached abt one sheep, 99 sheeps.. all nonsense la.
Can I know what 'unscriptural conduct' all these leaders and pastors had committed too? I think all of them also need 'Inquiry' or maybe they should be the one to leave but not people who expressed their 'grievances'
Yesterday SP also borrowed the newspaper and Perak authority's statement reporting on lawlessness and disrespect and start his sermon.. he said what lawlessness, disrespect and etc.
Aiyo..I think the one who is lawless now is leaders and pastors and BOD..they dont respect members, they dont respect email written nicely to them, no reply. Dato N also dont reply letter sent to him by Dr Lum, they dont listen. They controlled the microphone during EGM, they raised voice on members who stood up to ask questions, they switch off the sound systems when members asked questions during EGM, they cut members who asked more than 2 questions...hey, this is 'rascal' culture, Senior Pastor, please do you earn your respect by behaving like that? So, slap your own tongue, you have no law, no respect, you only practised 'FEAR CULTURE' in your daily conduct and also in your sermon.
SPIRITUALITY
It is very simple.
The Chairman of the Panel of Inquiry
Should be a spiritual person
It is not the Tan Sriship or the Datukship
That makes a man spiritual
You should know better Tan Sri.
How many more boo-boos must you make
You may not feel embarassed.
But we do!!!
Responding to "Respect is to be earned"..
The comment made by the group of friends is clearly outlandish in all respect of Christian faith. They appear to be the hypocrites of God's church who do not try to understand, empathise and clarify. Matt 6:33 clearly justifies that we should seek Him first His Kingdom and righteousness. The hidden closet mentality of the leadership and members who are living in denial is clearly what God detests because it is hyprocrisy at work. The leadership has become so autonomous that they are shutting out the problems thinking that they can sweep things under the carpet, let the old "sheep" go and have the new "sheep" come - treating God's church like a social club instead of His Kingdom.
I have never known D. Nelson personally but after the last EGM, I can see with my eyes that it was a circus chairing. There was no indication of love, understanding, and maturity.
I was dismayed to read about the manner of Dr Lum's inquiry. They dismissed him. They accused him of speaking lies. Now they hold a kangaroo court in God's church to shame him. What kind of a leadership do we have in CC?
If PG is reading this, I hope he knows it's time for him to step out of his closet. We don't want a silent leader. God gave specific instructions to Joshua to be bold and courageous.
No leader has the respect of his church by being silent and hideous. We pray for the truth and we will continue to pray for Godliness to prevail.
to: Calvary Today
Can I have a suggestion? as I continue to follow this blog, it seemed calvary church has got the most colorful scandal the world ever had; there are sexual scandal, power scandal; money scandal; spiritual scandal; gambling scandal, if all these scandals were to be highlighted in a daily publication thru hard copy, it may become the top seller daily in Malaysia. Maybe the publication should be called 'Utusan calvary'.
To God's Servant
SP will not come out. Everything is good for him. He has absolute control, of all his subordinates, BOD and the most important point is - he has control of the funds. BOD although voted by the members is not loyal to the members but to him and him alone. So why should be come out. He is aligning himself to Christ who kept quiet when He was accused. In his eyes he has done no wrong as he is in absolute control and it is his right to do what he likes.
You can say what you want - by his action up till now you know what I said is what he is thinking.
Who said he was silent and hiding in the closet?
He came out last Sunday morning to preach and said some 'nice' things about certain people. I thought he was quite 'outspoken'.
To Church Owned CK/CU @ February 28, 2009 10:27 PM
You mean to say that & I quote you, "current Deacon H and Auditor C forwarded email message urging Calvarites to read these blogs - full of curses on families who stand for Truth, Transparencies and Governance."
I thought those blogs accuse CT of publishing lies. I was one of those who wrote to the 2 church auditors to conduct the special audit. Someone pointed out to me that if auditor Chow endorses the blogs that accuse CT of telling lies, then his findings for the audit will be in line with what the other blogs have said.
To Auditor Chow,
Did you conduct the special audit? By asking members to read CK/CU, is that your answer to us members who wrote to you, that is the answer to your findings - Dr Lum telling lies? Please give us an answer yourself and not follow SP, using other people's mouth (in your case, blogs)to speak for you.
I thought we had professional accountants from reputable companies who would act professionally and independently when performing an audit. I am disappointed. BTW, did I see your face in the Nomination list for Church Auditor again for the coming AGM?
Deacon H, doing such things I am not surprised but Auditor Chow?
To Silent but outspoken,
He is what we'd call a pulpit master. But when it comes to the real crunch of responding to the real issues of our church, where is he? He is outspoken when he holds the "whip" at the pulpit. Even the pharisees do that.
It does not matter who you vote now for the BOD. All those nominated have already 'passed' the G kingdom test.
So, even if one gets all the members votes, its no use. It is a G-man or G-woman.
Change the constitution and the nomination process, then you see a truly independent and God-loving BOD team.
Hey
Dato N. is such a 'popular' personality among his 'kaki', thinking that his 'kaki' dont know what he is doing..hey, the way he enjoyed with the "KTM" is a fact. It is real, this is not accusation by TTG.
Go and confront his 'kaki' if you like and blame them but not TTG ok! Go and check with him personally too, one of his very close friend from the church who is also a leader also same 'kaki' la. So, you know, I know lor..the world is very small lar, calvary church even smaller, what you do everybody knows..as the saying goes.
THE BEGINNING OF THE END OF THE TWILIGHT ZONE
This is not a SAD day – but the NEW DAWN of liberation for the suffering church – Calvary Church Malaysia.
I expected Dr Lum to be given a fair hearing but what has happened as described in the blog is most shocking! But rest assured justice will be served.
And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. (Daniel 5:25-27)
Dr. Lum! My wife and I are with you in this issue. We stand with you and we offer you our fullest support. Welcome to the State of Christian Leadership in Malaysia!
Is it not amazing NOT ONE CHRISTIAN ORGANISATION OR SENIOR PASTOR OF ANY OTHER WELL KNOWN CHURCHES IN MALAYSIA HAS MADE A PUBLIC DECLARATION TO SUPPORT AND RESOLVE MATTERS AT CALVARY!
More than 7 years ago, my wife and I faced similar “justice” when we had to endure the accusation of 9 pastors of a church in the Klang Valley. Our crime - letting the Holy Spirit move freely in the Cell Group. We ran a successful Cell Group which had about 30 brothers and sisters. We loved this bunch and gave ourselves to its growth. But we made ONE “mistake”. WE MADE THE HOLY SPIRIT THE LEADER OF THE CELL GROUP. God wanted to do a new thing in the Cell Group and we allowed the Holy Spirit to move freely - but the Senior Pastor felt HE and NOT THE HOLY SPIRIT was the leader of the Church. Hence to get rid of us a Kangaroo Court was convened and to cut the story short – my wife and I had to leave that church. The Cell Group suffered and many left.
But Glory to God – that was the beginning of many blessings for my wife and I – so rest assured Dr. Lum – the Lord has not forgotten you and this ‘dark night of the soul’ will be the NEW DAWN of many blessings. GREATER WORKS SHALL YE DO FOR THE LORD. We THANK GOD every day for letting us to go through that CROSS. We lost our closest friends, our reputation and suffered much - but alas we look back and say "Lord - if this is the way into the deeps of God - Let it be so”. Getting 'kicked' out by the Kangaroo Court was the best thing that the Lord permitted for us. Of course - it was painful - but that CROSS was the very path into victory and spiritual (and earthly) blessings. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF THE CROSS THE LORD PERMITS TO COME INTO YOUR LIVES - ACCEPT IT AND SEE HIS GLORY! YOU WILL THANK GOD EVERY DAY IN THE FUTURE THAT HE FOUND YOU WORTH TO SUFFER FOR HIM
Nothing surprised us as we read the blog because it appears this is the state of Christian Leadership in Malaysia. Nevertheless, God is doing a new thing. He is shaking the foundation of the various National Christian Organisations and Christian Leaders and they will one day reflect and cry “Surely the Lord was in Calvary Church and we did not discern”. They will forever regret that when the Lord was looking for those who would champion His course – He found none and He will now turn the very stones within Calvary Church and raise up a new generation of Christian Leaders who will take Malaysia for Jesus. Let us pray that the new generation of Christian Leaders will not be ruled by reputation or self interest but stand with the suffering church and against Christian Leaders who are now found wanting by the Lord.
“TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting” (Daniel 5:27)
This is not a SAD day – but the NEW DAWN of liberation for the suffering church – Calvary Church Malaysia.
VIJAY
IN CALVARY CHURCH "PASTORS" TAKE ON A NEW DEFINITION
Can you bear?, Associate Pastors were placed
On-Call at DP for "duty" on Sat 28 Feb 09, as BOUNCER, DOOR KEEPER, RECEPTIONIST, and MESSENGER BOY by SP & BOD to take up their individual assigned role to ensure Dr.Lum's 'Hearing' will NOT go smoothly :by barring Observers to keep a watching brief, blocking access to "Independent" Chairman,and Roughing Witnesses.
AT WHAT COST & WHOSE EXPENSE?
Consider the LOSSES to the KINGDOM of GOD:
1. The time of these "pastors" should have been in the harvest field--ministering to the lost, hurting,
Sick & needy.
(Of course, it was not just the Saturday, but many more man hours, you can bet, in Preparation & Briefing, Rehearsal (not surprising) of this "SHOW" .
IT"S YET ANOTHER CASE of ABUSE and MISUSE of GOD's RESOURCES by SP-CEO & the BOD
2. All the Counseling Sessions/Appointments And other scheduled activities were Cancelled/Postponed!
What could have happened to those who have a desperate situation that could not wait?; who needed
a listening ear to their grief; an encouraging word to avert a suicide, or life & death decisions, perhaps?
Doesn't this event showed whose interest the SP-CEO & BOD put first:definitely not the Church, even though they claimed to be "Called"--How tragic!
SP & BOD have proved time and again, they will "COVER & PROTECT" themselves at all cost, come what may.
To those who truly know our Heavenly Father's heart, can you still remain unmoved over such irresponsible,
callous, selfish,and despicable offences committed?
or
It's time for you to come forward with boldness to stand-up for Jesus Christ and say NO to such "leaders" who caused shame and pain and disrepute to the Body of Christ?
Sometime ago a hullabaloo was created when the so-called alternative sites delved into the 'called cards' by TTG.
Now there is talk of the current auditor and current deacon forwarding emails to non-calvarites and calvarites promoting the alternative sites.
Isn't these double standards or whatever you call it being practiced by the voted leaders of the church. Or being biased?
As for 'called cards', one has a choice whether to decline or accept it and then throw it away. The choice is yours!
However emails are different! One got no choice. The unsolicited message just pop up in your mail-box. Yes, the sender can always say "If you do not want to read it, just delete it". Bear in mind many peoples' email addresses are related to their work place. So, isn't this also an 'invasion of privacy" in a way? Well, looks like some leaders have joined the spamming culture! The wonders of the internet haha.
On the subject of the inquiry into Dr. Lum's alleged misconduct, as an overview, here are some points for readers who may not be familiar with what such inquiry is all about.
An inquiry is an internal hearing held to ascertain whether a person is guilty of misconduct. The purpose of an inquiry or fact finding or whatever it is named, is to find out the truth of the allegations made against him
It is, therefore, imperative to recognise that upholding a disciplinary action involves satisfying 2 criteria:
(a) that there were proper grounds for the disciplinary action;
(b) that the procedure by which the person was disciplined was fair.
In conducting an inquiry the rules of natural justice must be adhered to. Justice must not only be done but must seen to be done, the twin pillars of natural justice being "No person shall be condemned unheard" and "No person shall sit in judgement in his own cause or in any in which he is interested".
The objective of holding an inquiry is twofold. Firstly to give the opportunity to the person-making-the charge to prove the charges of misconduct against that person before disciplinary action is meted out and secondly to give that person sufficient opportunity to defend himself/herself.
What is of utmost importance, however,is that the BASIC PRINCIPLES OF NATURAL JUSTICE are observed, summarised as follows:
(a) that the person charged is given an opportunity to know, in full, the charges made against him;
(b) the person has reasonable opportunity of defending himself against the charges;
(c) the inquiry panel should be unconnected with the events and circumstances surrounding the charge.
Please note that these requirements are basic concept of fairness and justice designed to ensure that the person is given a proper hearing to answer the charges made against him.
One of the basic criteria of the selection of the panel is that it's members should be a rank or status above the person facing the charge.
Of particular importance is the rule that the members of the Panel must not be seen to be biased or even appear biased.
The statements given in the inquiry should be carefully recorded. Further, the notes should be typed and made available for the person to countersign to avoid any future challenge.
Any witness, called by either party to give statements, is to be subjected to cross-examination by the other party. Statements made by these witnesses must be recorded and signed by them.
Now in Dr. Lum's case, disciplinary action to remove his membership was taken before he was given an opportunity to defend himself. One may say that the absolute power is vested in the BOD, isn't this a denial of natural justice? Further, under what process is this - where disciplinary action had been taken, then later an inquiry is to be carried out?
As to the chairman of the panel, it known that he has a very close relationship to PG. Does not this contradict one of the rule above, that the Panel must not be seen to be biased or even appear biased.
In an inquiry, the party that made the charges should also be available to be crossed-examined by the accused person. In this case, who made the charges? If it is PG-BOD, then PG-BOD must avail themselves to be cross-examined.
Well, it is very usual for church leaders to fall back on this line when it is seen that the secular world has a higher standard than the church, as quoted from pastor Guynes open letter dated Sep 19, 2008: "We are in the world but not of it."
Fellow Christians
The Lord is moving in Malaysia - I was hesitant to attend a small sized Methodist Church because I have been so used to attending cc. But I needed some wholesome spiritual food which PG & pastors no longer supply....so I went to to check it out.
The pastor spoke from his heart and the Word of God was delivered simply, soundly and powerfully. Later during a session of Bible study, another visiting pastor taught on the COMFORTER, the Holy Spirit. At the end of the session many present went out and sought the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Almost all were baptised with the evidence of speaking in tongues and many were slain.
The Holy Spirit moved because Christians present were hungry, they sought for Him to fill them......
My heart cries - cc is a Pentecostal church yet the Holy Spirit cannot minister. Can it be because our leaders lack vision (or only visualise money - how to get more money from us so that PG & family can spend like prince and princess and satisfy their craze for power)? Our leaders like BOD too can grieve the Holy Spirit by their not discerning what they ought to do as children of light?
Let us pray to get rid of all our ministers who lost their first love for the Lord and hurt the sheep whom God entrusted to their care. Let us also pray for replacement of leaders who will lead us to seek God and a revival to take place.
When King Saul lost the annointing of God there was David who replaced him. When PG goes, there will be a replacement!! The Lord will provide.
ABC
Wow..wow..wow.. I am stunned. So this is my anology:
1. first thing first, we have a bunch of 'dumb' board of deacons.
2. we have a back-sliding SP.
3. we have a 'PSYCHO' panel of inquiry-- why, Dr Lum dont know who are the witnesses from the other side, he cannot enter into a room where he cannot see who are inside, he only allowed to be in another isolated room with one witness, but cannot take notes, cannot talk. He cannot even enter the room to talk to Dato N who is suppose to be the 'Psycho Head'. My conclusion, if this is the scenario, must as well put Dr Lum to death penalty without having to waste each others time.
4. we have another bunch of 'bouncer'-- that is our associate pastor who were placed right on the ground floor, guarding around, next, first floor--door tightly guarded and locked, only one by one whose name were given much earlier to be admitted one by one...woah..this is much worse than going for a parole. The rest are ordered to leave..
5. We have another group of 'secret agent', skimming, plotting to hurt, to 'curse' the concerned members.
I am very hurt and angry even when I was told by one of the witnesses who were present there about the manner the 'plot' that was going on..But ultimately, I must thank God, Dr Lum and the rest are wise and 'anointed' with the heavenly wisdom not to carry one with the 'psycho' panelty. To me, this is not an inquiry, a real 'psycho panelty'
Hello CT
I heard from friends that those invovled in the inquiry has got all evidences and document and witnesses in person for the inquiry but was not able to present yourself because of the way the panel behave.
Why not conduct another interview with Dr Lum and publish all the evidences, make it public, but be careful and seek all permission from all involved with their authorisation before you publish.
Good idea right?
SPIRITUALITY BY TITTLES?
Is this the new thing in Calvary ?
Introduced by none other than our beloved PG
Yet again! Another milestone.
Spirituality level is now gauged by level of title ?
Now we have the honourable Dato’ N
Puan Sri SAP
Tan Sri PG
Is it no more by your walk in-Christ ?
Then call me TUN, James TUN.
AGM:
Chairing of AGM by PG is terrible.
Chairing by Dato’ N is even worse
Well as the saying goes, “Birds of a feather”.
Why would one associate with Dato’ N ?
Bible says:
1Cor 15:33 Bad company corrupts a person’s character.
Hello Think Tank,
Your idea seems good but unlikely workable. Simply, the verdict has been made regardless of the expected inquiry proceedings. By publishing more will ultimately provide rooms for them to be more prepared with ugly patches. Keep the facts for the right moment. The moment is yet to come. Dato' Nelson was deliberately chosen as he has what is required of him to deliver, by hook or by crook. The right person for the wrong reason.
We are called to be calm and be prayerful, quite reluctantly though. Continue to support Truth and Dr. Lum. He wouldn't want us to be confrontational, does he?
Absolutely unbelievable!
I cannot believe the way the BOD & SP responded to the matter. Instead of addressing the REAL issues that are afflicting CC, they choose to focus on Dr. Lum's credibility. What absolute nonsense! This would not have been accepted in the secular world of business.
To the Assoc. Pastors - what happened to your integrity? You have always thought the congregation to put God first, yet your actions over the last few years say otherwise. Have you thought of the people that look up to you as an example of a Man Of God?! Have you thought of the fallout after all this is over (regardless of the result)?
Do the BOD & SP really take us all for fools?! It is now 2009 - when will this finally end?
After months, I am still asking the same question - how can I (as a regular worshipper of CC) help the cause? What can I do?
BLACK SHEEP
at first I thought the associate pastors had no choice but to support PG because they still worked in CC and CC is their bread and butter, but judging from their ungodly and unloving actions, they are even worse than gangsters and one of them whom I had respected all this while is also a two faced liar. This is so so sad.
Auditor Chow, where is our special audit??? As a member of MIA and with your audit license, it is your responsibility to conduct the special audit at the request of the church members. Pls do not disappoint us. Do what is right, or else, pls step down as church auditor. We are already ashamed of even calling you auditor, don't make God ashamed of you as well.
Events that happened in CC have lots of parallel to those in Perak.
Assemblymen were locked out from the State Secretariat bldg. Pro-TTG church worshippers were 'locked out' from meeting in the church. Assemblymen met under the tree; TTG met in mamak stall.
Person responsible is out of sight. But, others down the line are caught tassling one another.
Both cried lawlessness. BIG QUESTION: Who started this lawlessness? You be the judge!
To Dr. Lum and all who believe and uphold truth, justice and obedience to our Lord. We continue to pray that the Lord is with you always and truth applied will ultimately reveal a divine transformation for CC.
If the world hates you Dr. Lum and all your supporters keep in mind always it hated Jesus first. The obedient ones do not compromise for the sake of wordly rewards.....
The Church that abandons the Truth abandons the Lord. Make a decisive stand on a God-given ground for a God-given victory.
All these Truth I have learned from attending a Discipleship Conference last week.
Rejoice always in our Lord
I have been attending Calvary for more than a decade but for various reasons am not a member. So much has been expressed in this blog in the name of truth and for the sake of God's church. Just by reading the accusations, I can see that there is a lot of hurt and personal judgment applied.
There are proper channels in which to do this, including going up to the Assembly of God body, if your concerns are properly documented.
What is the intention of this blog really? Taking the cue from RPK may sound good, but TTG by any stretch of the imagination is hardly the stuff of Malaysia Today. What it accomplishes is to draw attention and to hurl mud - noticeably it appears none of the accused has responded and I believe it is because it is not necessary to wash dirty linen in this way.
By taking this route, I sincerely question your intentions and that of those who so eloquently state the "facts". No one benefits from this, and as an observer, I am reminded of a line... let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
The New Testament pattern is gospel preaching (which includes the person and work of Christ and the need to repent and believe) followed by nurturing the flock with the whole counsel of God. This is God's means of establishing true Christian unity. There will always be attacks against this unity. There were such attacks in Paul's day and Paul prophesied that such attacks would come to the Ephesian church after his departure:
Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. (Acts 20:28-30)
This passage shows that there will be attacks from within the church that will threaten Christian unity. These attacks are against the faith of the gospel.
The epistles show that Paul always publicly refuted teachings that were changes or additions to the gospel of God's grace. The content of the gospel is everything. If we cannot get that right, we are in grave peril! Paul writes, "But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8). The content is key; not how nice, kind, wonderful, or charming the preacher might be. If an angel from heaven preaching a different gospel should be rejected, how much more should some kindly pastor who seems so endearing. Some of the wolves devouring the church today are very nice people.
For Paul, to "[S]trive for the faith of the gospel" meant to fight all changes to the gospel and to challenge all compromises of the gospel. To so strive is the essence of Christian unity. But, when pastors tell their flock that members are violating Christian unity when they ask their pastors to preach the gospel--that is a perversion of the Biblical idea of unity. Those pastors are not concerned with the unity of the faith; they are concerned with conformity to their man-made agendas. Do not be intimidated by such persons. Those who strive for the faith of the gospel are true friends of Christian unity.
Jesus said, "Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division" (Luke 12:51). The gospel is divisive when preached to the unregenerate. Those who respond in faith are divided from those who reject it. Christian unity is unity under and through the gospel. It is created by God when He regenerates people and makes them one in spirit with other believers. It is nurtured through the teaching of sound Biblical doctrine that has as its goal the unity of the faith.
False unity is unity that is demanded and prescribed by religious leaders to their own ideas and organizations. This is the unity that the religious leaders of Israel wanted and that Jesus threatened. His gospel divided their religious system and spoiled their unity. They decided they had to get rid of Him. The gospel will divide churches as well if they are not based on the gospel itself.
The false unity of corporate vision to create growth through adding religious consumers to the organization will create a "church" that would be divided by the gospel if it were preached there. Those who promote pure gospel preaching are the friends of Christian unity. Those who promote man-centered "vision" for their religious systems are enemies of Christian unity. Be encouraged in your support for the gospel; the Bible says that you are pleasing Christ by so doing (Philippians 1:27).
My mum used to wash all the dirty linen, first, by using the washing cycle, next, the rinsing cycle, third, the spinning cyle, afterwhich it will be clean and spinned dry. This whole process appeared to be tedious and tough with spinning sound which can be loud at times. And finally, most of the times, the linen will be hanged in a quite an open and public place to air and sun till it is dry..and the very outcome is the good smelling and clean linen that can be used again...
However, I was wondering without putting in all these effort into washing a very simple piece of linen ( its huge and flat and simple), what would be the outcome? I am sure without the washing, it still remain a piece of dirty linen.
Our pastors and BOD, its time to take responsiblity and go thru the process, or else this would be the process.
Dear Anonymous March 4, 2009 11:09 AM. (it is nice if ppl don't use anonymous)
Wuow...wuow...wuow.
1st U R not a member after a decade attending CC. Wonder why?
2nd U R "an observer" who think that "let him who is without sin cast the first stone."
U telling me SP, BOD & Dato N got no sin? They accuse Dr Lum and drag him to appear before an Inquiry.
I C tat U R one who do selective reading. de post oledi tell us, Dr Lum ask for AG council ppl to be present. You did not get that line?DL wrote, "should include representatives from the AG General Council". To me, he oledi informed AG ppl. AG ppl were at de EGM, so they shd be very aware I believe.
U say Calvary Today is "hardly the stuff of Malaysia Today". To malaysians maybe but to calvarites, CT is hotter than MT any time. V read to know the happening in church, not like what you think - hurl mud.
church leaders shd not let members have mud to throw. to me if they dirty the linen and are not interested to clean it, someone else have to. please remember we r all using this same linen. don't know abt U, but i sure want a clean one to use.
From what i read - the whole blog - from beginning to now - TTG have put in a lot of effort and wrote to many ppl in authority. I feel sorry for them, all the authority seems like rocks, not moved at all. Maybe they r enjoying all this dirty linen also.
cl
CC and MIED both have similarity. They had both transferred money collected for tsunami victims to another A/Cs. In CC, money was transfered to our SP's "personal" A/C. The top official of MIED is being probed for CBT. Why is our SP not being investigated?
Seemingly all money collected from concerned and passionate people at large in Malaysia, had never reached the victims at all! How dare CC lied to his members that "They dont need it anymore...." outrageous!!!!!!
Being 1st timer here, after reading and understanding both CT and CK/CU; I must congratulate CT for the great job in exposing and yet upholding the truth, transparency and good governance.
I am a voting member. CT you have my vote praise the Lord.
May the Lord's blessing and protection be with you and your family.
Dear CT Readers,
Please make sure when you use Christopher in you name. People should know that is not me as in all my previous posts to CT and to CU, I have always presented two sides to every coin and do not cast aspersions on anyone. Please remain in the spirit when you share your perspectives.
Love in Jesus
Dr. Christopher Shun Kong Leng
In reply to some reaction to my comment (please call me Josh if you prefer):
I am not a member because the nature of my work prevents me from fulfilling the commitment required to be a member. I am glad however to have a place of worship where my children can grow well. Perhaps we are ignorant, but we are happy here.
If anyone bothers to read what I posted, I make no claim on behalf of anyone as far as these accusations are concerned. What I am asking is for all to take a step back and consider if it is only 1 side that is called to judgment?
TTG lists 3 things Calvarites can do. The third of which is pray. How does one do that without grace? The fact that TTG allows comments of these nature to be voiced begs the question of its intentions. So far as I can see - and again as an observer - no one is throwing mud back.
What I suggest however is that there is an organizational structure that goes beyond Calvary - if my understanding serves me correct. There is something called the World Assemblies of God Fellowship (yes, I wikipedia-ed it). Has TTG seek counsel from this organization?
And coming from a family that actually washed clothes by the river, you sometimes hope that the soap does not get too much downstream. That's my point - this blog does not edify anyone, not TTG, nor its readers.
I fear asking this question because I will be accused of taking sides. But in as much as Dr Lum, bless him, has been in the centre of this matter, why is it that questions dating back (probably) several years are only now being put in the spotlight? He has had some years to put it in the spotlight, right?
And he will have his valid reasons, but in the end, that is my point too. TTG is not in a position to effect change nor enforce investigation - especially not if both sides are to be heard fairly.
Better this be done by a council of peers which points back to the World Assemblies of God Fellowship than defined in these pages.
And dear "Don't give ppl mud to throw said..." RPK it seems is willing to go to jail for his ideals. You cannot even consider an alternate view objectively - am I to understand that your view is the correct one?
Your last line also begs examination. Has TTG exhausted all avenues or are just simply exhausted? If indeed all the powers that be are like rocks, walls and all that's hard... maybe TTG needs to re-examine it's case.
DOCTORS JUST CAN’T GET ALONG
WITH PG OVER THREE DECADES
In the late seventies the late Dr Peter Tong, International Director FGBMF, left because of ministry jealousy ( He told me personally)
Dr. Paul Nah, BODs 1978 – 1995: Left because he was concerned about the direction of the leadership. (Ask him personally, he is around)
Dr. Lum Siew Heng, BODs, 1998 -2009 –resigned because he was not satisfied with the governance of the leadership.(He has already made a public announcement in CT)
I knew all of them. I will give a possible explanation why PG had problems with doctors for three decades. Medicine is science-based profession. Doctor are trained to diligently search for the TRUTHS objectively, base upon which an accurate DIAGNOSIS of an existing abnormality can be made. Only after that can you consider what CORRECTIONS can be made to bring the patient back to normality.
Note the centrality that TRUTH plays in determining the DIAGNOSIS upon which CORRECTIVE TREATMENT can be taken.
DOCTOR’s lifestyle is always based on TRUTH.
PG has a paranoiac compulsion to hide truth.
Hence DOCTORS cannot get along with PG.
It is absolutely a sham to hold the "so called inquiry" against Dr Lum. PG and BOD have already decided on what they want to do with Dr Lum.
They are now out to put up a so called inquiry "to get facts" to justify their decision. They set their own rules and ignore all the rules of natural justice which a properly convened inquiry must follow. They are indirectly asking Dr Lum to bring the rope to hang himself.... It is all a show as though they are giving him a chance to explain himself.
BUT we already see beyond all these false moves and glaring blunders.
Surely the Lord is in control and more and more mistakes are committed by pastors and BOD. It is also indicative they no longer fear God and are just taking things into their own hands as they are acting out of desperation.
We sense the Lord's anointing upon our pastors is gone already. There is no humilty and obedience in the whole saga. They are as defiant and arrogant as ever. But how long can this last? Surely when sin is in full bloom it brings forth destruction and alienation from God.
May our pastors and BOD realise the need to confess, repent and ask for forgiveness without further delay .... too much ugliness and shame have been exposed. The only way forward is to repent and be reconciled with God and the Body.
It is useless to fight and deny matters. Too many stories of similar nature ie abuse of powers and positions, misappropriation of public or trust moneys, gross extravagances, family and self indulgences have been exposed recently too.... Taiwan's Ah Bain and MIED here too.
The wrong doers and perpetrators can shout and scream and cry foul but in the end God cannot be deceived and the truth will be revealed.
For those who have been dragged into the mess, perhaps unknowingly at first but later coaxed by circumstances, they had better confess, be honest and truthful or else they will be implicated as well.
We earnestly pray that they will listen to the still small voice from God and respond humbly before God.
"I am reminded of a line... **let him who is without sin cast the first stone." Anonymous March4, 09 3:42 PM.
As the saying goes "A little Knowledge is dangerous".
I'm no Theologian, however, let's not take this Scripture out of context, and apply it wrongly. This is disastrous advice, and indeed very irresponsible,
if you had truly fully comprehend all the Issues confronting the leadership, concerning matters of Dishonesty, misrepresentation, misleading the congregation, etc, as Minister and Servants of God.
As for airing through proper channels? Again, if you had followed from the outset, you would know, what effort, length, and pain those who have the boldness to expose them have gone through, but to no avail. However, we can Praise God, these concerned members are still Pressing on for TTG, for it is HIS cause.
** Suggest you get its meaning & intent correct and understood from those well grounded in the Word.
Not only doctors. Engineers also cannot tahan him.
Engineers cannot lie in their calculations. 1 + 1 is 2. Not 1 or 3.
And not RM250 million is RM50 million.
(When the CCC was first introduced to the church in an AGM by him and the architect, they told the church the cost was initially RM80 million, but he asked the architect to reduce it to RM50 at the AGM and the architect said boleh. Now the estimated cost is RM250 million or even more. Mind you, the cost includes for all costs including consultant fees, earthworks, foundations and sub-structures, fittings and fixtures, m & e equipment, audio and video equipment, etc. I understand that the land cost is already about RM35million. I am tempted to say that the overall cost will come close to RM300 million. Ask any developer on how much and what they can build for RM300 million. Its no small amount.
If he is an engineer, habis- lah.
There are two engineers in the BOD. One is not standing for re-election but the other who graduated as an engineer but not working as an engineer is still around.
REMINDER TO CALVARITES AT COMING AGM
BODs members cannot function independently to serve the congregation who elected them if
They have received benefits of any kind e.g
1)A business subcontract from CCC or CC
2)Personal Councelling from PG, SAP or PmG
3)Any form of Educational Aid to any members of the family.
ALL CALVARITES SHOULD be allowed to question any of the deacons concerning these matters.
Hey fellow brothers and sisters,
Are you all aware of the date of the AGM? I know the diary says 3 April 2009 but still no formal announcement right? or did I miss it? Even my life group leader don't know.
Someone told me the copycat blogs got a count-down to AGM. If it's true, then how come they seem to have so many inside information that even our church leaders don't know? Fishy Fishy!!!
To: josh
1. i think u r wasting ur time, 1 yr already, wat u r saying sound like u r such an ignorant and innocent person.
2. U dont seem to know what the concerned members had done so far..i think u r naive to talk abt AOG, WAOG. Do refer back to all the post, then u figured out urself whether AOG or WAOG had been approached. Its all written in calvary today either thru post or comments.
3. In the first place, the members had been writing to BOD for questions and doubts and clarification, and the they dont seemed to receive official reply nor do they receive clarification at the AGM or EGM. If ever the conduct of our BOD and SP are reasonably sincere and genuine in resolving all the questions and doubts.. do you think all these sequence of events would have taken place?? Please give eveyone else who read this blog a break, U r only talking here, can I know wat have u personally done? did u write to the pastors yet? the deacons?? the AOG?? the World AOG?? why not you try to help by writing or talking to them or even meet up with them before u lament yourself here again.
Please do wat you can do before you keep instructing and accusing the TTG. Please come back with your report and publish at CT or meet up with any of the concerned members and bring us all the good news and solution. I must say thank you to you in advance should you be able to deal with all these.
Look forward to read your outcome in CT.
The AGM was announced a few weeks ago during prayer meeting.
Dear HSOJ said, in fact, dear TTG and whoever is moderating the comments, I do not pride myself in not knowing the facts. If indeed there is evidence, then I am surprised to hear that the national body has not responded (is that what is being said?) at all. My appeal is based upon the fact that all this edifies no one. Am I wasting time? Most of the people commenting here are also talking and have not started on the correspondences like me, but the fact that my opinion differs means that I am wasting time?
Or is it wasting your time in reading what you think you have no patience to pursue anymore?
Call me ignorant (I confess to that as far as the "facts" are concerned) or imply that I am not who I am that is fine. But not everyone who disagrees with you is out to get you. If indeed there is criminal breach of trust, we remain a country of laws. Or do you mean to tell me that the Police, MACC and Government are in collusion as well?
Read what I posted first and then my retort. My questions are not even addressed much less acknowledged. Can I say that is a case of a pot calling a kettle black?
Am I to understand that unless I come back with a report of "approved" activities, all my opinions are a waste of time?
This is not a case of "if you are not for us, you are against us". If indeed you are interested in the truth, it should be for the benefit of our Lord's church. And again I reiterate my point... where is the grace in this blog?
The world says that information is king. But so far all I see is inference rather than fact.
If the purpose of this site is to alert Calverites of their obligations and rights, then do so, as suggested by Tun James. But calling our Pastors, Board of Deacons and leaders crooks without substantiating with proof - documented proof that withstands the examination of law - is irresponsible and reckless.
Am I wasting my time? My hope is that all who come here do so with discernment in their hearts and grace in their intentions to see a resolution that heals the church. If that is wrong, I stand to be corrected.
BTW, my question on Dr Lum remains unanswered.
Shalom.
Hey HM & KC,
Your copycat friends are saying that you two are hiding Dr Lum. They challenge you to publish the letters as evidence for all to see if you guys have nothing to hide.
OH HM, did the auditors do the special audit? Have they given you a report? The report is important because they say you guys accuse Dr Guynes of accepting bribe. So you must get the report to see if US10k was really given to Dr Guynes. They twist your words and say you say Dr Guynes take bribe. They should have say, he got a love offering. Now everyone thinks Dr Guynes so bad take bribe. Hey it's the copycat blog words ah, not mine.
I am hereby making a suggestion to the TTG to please gather your evidence and make a police report! Get them to investigate and sort this issue out! If there is wrong being committed.. IT MUST BE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE!!! AND SOON!! When God calls you to a course of action, you must ACT on it!!
and if it's discovered no wrong is being committed.. then that's for you guys to figure out what to do.
"LET’S SOLVE THE PROBLEM ONCE AND FOR ALL !!
BRING EVERYTHING INTO THE OPEN!!
IF YOU HAVE THE TRUTH SHOW IT!!
SURELY YOUR OWN SUPPORTERS WOULD LIKE TO KNOW TOO !!"
and to this i say to you PSHN!.. if YOU HAVE THE TRUTH SHOW IT!!! come on!! i challenge you.. BRING FORTH ALL THE EVIDENCE YOU ARE BASING YOUR STATEMENTS!! AND LET ME SEE!!! wanna arrange a meeting time and place? i will come alone and unarmed.. i wanna see YOUR TRUTH!!
Hi Jeff
I was also there at the prayer meet but I remember it was a prayer item to pray for the coming AGM even though it was written in the church diary of which most of us were aware, but there was no mentioned of date. And further to that, the person in charged also mentioned that they have no ideas of the date. How come you know about it? I am doubtful of your comment, please do clarify!
However, Friday prayer meet is not the proper platform to make such an important announcement for AGM , knowing that there are only a handful of people attending friday prayer meet.
I hope you are trying to fool the people or announce it on behalf of the church.
Sorry to Josh,
Maybe you are new in this blog but you really sound like WSL.
Anyway I quote your ???s. Are these two your questions? or is it something else?
1.What is the intention of this blog really?
2.I sincerely question your intentions and that of those who so eloquently state the "facts".
THE ANSWER.
1.This blog is to give ppl like us reading here, a little knowledge of what is happening in church. You see I like you also very busy and not in the services every week and have very few friends, so very ignorant. If not for CT, i will nvever about Dr Lum's inquiry.
2. You and I also not there at the Inquiry so we have to appreciate CT for telling us. You may not believe them, but they tell what they saw and experience.
Why don't you ask the security man, Paul I think if what CT say is true, not all are allowed in. They also say they spoke to Pas. Steven, then go ask him if DL & witnesses did get him to mediate.
You must ask the right people if you have questions.
Many ppl already ask TTG to publish their evidence but TTG will not do so. So how?
HI HSOJ
i agree with you fully with what you have to said.
Hi AGM,
I'm doing neither. I was just recalling something I remember hearing. I can't remember if it was said over the pulpit or if I hear it after prayer meet in conversation but I seem to have noted April 3rd in my
mind.
I guess it will all be cleared up when the notice goes up. If the date IS April 3 then that should be anytime now right?
I remember when WSL, Honestly and Discernment Needed used to write here.
They all has really caused so many problems here.
Now they got alternate blog to go and confuse themselves goodlah ... Better for TTG.
Especially that WSL guy ... I really cannot tahan him ...
Dear "Long time CT reader said..."
I am not sure if the site administrators are able to log where I am coming from, but if they can, it will reveal that I am posting this out of a Kelana Jaya IP address. And yes, I really should be working hence why I posted anonymous in the beginning. So my follow-up question is this - who is WSL? Sorry, I only knew who Dr Lum was when I saw the photo and recognized him from Sunday Service in DH.
Thanks for trying to answer my questions. For question 1, I just read the explanation given in the other blog and I can accept the anonymity for those reasons. Actually I am not against Calvarites knowing more - but more fact. But I sincerely believe not everyone is able to handle the "truth". Some are young and prone to stumble, so if these accusations are factually correct, then why not reveal it in the proper channels? I went back and read the older postings and saw the update in August last year that TTG was awaiting news from the AG council and NECF among others. Did they not respond? Was the evidence presented as fact?
My more important question which remain unanswered is related to Dr Lum - i.e. being a deacon for so long, and seeing that some of those issues date back some years, why only take the stand recently? I can only speculate why but that is not factual and therefore unfit to be shared here.
Until now, all I see are questions and conlusions... where is the matter of fact?
And once again, where is the grace?
I quote verbatim from CT:
The primary purpose is to keep members and regular worshippers (typo is not mine by the way) of Calvary Church, KL updated on issues and concerns in our church today and to provide a platform for them to express their views, comments and concerns and provide feedback on matters raised, so that God's will and purposes for our lives and for our church may be fulfilled to His glory.
If indeed this is for Calvarites and regular worshipers, why not institute a login to control? I was forwarded the link to this site by my church friends back in my hometown. Will this even edify them?
Hello 'long time CT reader'
You are quite right, the 'Josh' sound like WSL and sound like a fisherman too. I think he/she try to catch some fish.. but may I suggest he/she go catch a 'shark', who will appear every first Sunday of the month behind the 'cross'.
haha..
In reply to "Nothing to hide", on 6 February I wrote an email to the two auditors requesting them to extend to me the normal professional courtesy of a reply to my memo of 20 December 2008. One of them did call me to apologize for the delay and told me that he had started work on it. There was no indication how long it would take or what would be covered. When ready the report should be given to all members as the auditors are responsible to the members in general meetings.
You cannot stop others from twisting your words. But people like you are able to spot the twists. I think my memo is clear enough.
hong meng
i wonder how long before the media picks up on all that is happening in CC? i mean, the mess in CC is already the talk among other churches in KL, when before the press start digging? will it help/hinder the TTG efforts to expose all the wrong-doings in our church? why did it all have to happen this way. such a bad reflection on our faith.
WHAT MAKES FOR A FAIR AGM
1.A fair Chairman – Is PG fair?? Is Dato’ N fair???
2.A relax and friendly Chairman (Are we going to create history here?)
3.Microphones well distributed among the congregation, not just at the stage.
(PG don't be childish. You're a Tan Sri for crying out loud. Act your age, man!)
4.Enough time for critical issues- But give 2 mins when PG speaks.
5.Give Reports esp. Financial reports at least one month ahead.
6.How about a vote to see whether the members still want PG (2/3rds majority)
(Let’s settle this issue ONCE AND FOR ALL. Be bold, PG. Take the challenge and find out if the church still likes you. Don’t live under a delusion that people still love you)
7.How about a vote to see whether the members still want the remaining deacons.
(COME ON DEACONS. Take the challenge. Be brave and find out if the people still want you. If not be gracious enough to step down. Don’t live in the delusion that you are still liked)
Hi 'all for ACTION'
Your call for police action is serious. Hello, concerned members, should we all support the call!
Yes report to all the authorities and call for a press conference. No point wasting time arguing with ppl who question wrong ppl here and drag wrong ppl to Inquiry. No point going through the motion of another AGM with the same deacons standing for election to be deacon again for another 2 years. Aren't they ashamed of this big mess that they have caused? No they blamed it on Dr Lum & TTG & CT. They have done no wrong I forgot.
TTG just go to the authorities.
To Josh,
The matter of fact is BOD took our Missions offering which we pledge to give for Missions work through our Faith Promise giving and gave it to SP's personal ministry called CIM. Question, why they gave and no member know about it? Conclusion they have not given us yet. My question, can they tell us all that they will not secretly give SP some more money.
The matter of fact is SP & architect told us CCC will cost RM50 Million in the 1st round of AGM. Question, how come every year the figure goes up till now about RM150 million. Conclusion, no one actually knows how much CCC cost for real.
The fact is they got church to get external auditor to give an audit report. we all were at EGM last year. Question, why TTG write to them to read it they don't let. Conclusion, what is there to hide?
Very tired now but got so many more facts and no conclusion and this I got from reading CT, thatnks to TTG effort.
Hello
datuk-datuk, dato-dato, datin-datin, tan sri-tan sri, puan sri-puan sri, tun-tun, Puan-toh dan lain lain..
looks like we are going to have Yang Bahagia -Yang bahagia soon.
How come suddenly so many Tun appear argh??
Dear NET ... I have already indicated how you can try and prove that I am who you say I am. There is little I can do since the voice of "reason" far outstrips anything constructive I have to say.
TTG's protest about the treatment extended to Dr Lum is reflected in the manner in which some have assumed the position of accuser, jury and judge. In a small way, I too am a victim of such narrow-mindedness. How does one say this in love escapes me but I tell you again... don't let the young ones stumble.
But fair enough. I am beginning to suspect that some of these postings are by none other than the same band of people anyhow. They say it takes one to know one.
I believe TTG has been heard and hurt. The EGM is evidence of that. But where is the evidence of fact? I am repeating myself because I have not read any replies to the contrary. Chest beatings and self-proclamation that "we have evidence etc. etc." is not enough. Just as good intentions is not good enough to shepherd a herd gone amok.
Personally I do not think Senior Pastor is perfect. But in my ignorant bliss, let me say we are blessed on Sunday. Yet if indeed there is evidence to show otherwise, I am not so blind as to disregard it. But show hand-lah... or is that a gambling terminology that is forbidden in discussion too?
Perhaps this time, Dr Lum can respond to my simple but unanswered question: what took you so long?
Dear Calvary Today readers,
I must congratulate BC for finding a most excellent testimony along with the brief Inspirational Short Stories to INSPIRE us all. PLease go visit BC and be greatly encouraged especially in the midst of all this disparaging situation in Calvary Church. I believe that Bro. David's testimony about his visitation to Heaven is real. I recently revisited a popular book entitled "Heaven is so Real" by Choo Thomas. In this book, she recounts her numerous visitations to Heaven and gave some insights as to what to look forward to when we return home to the father in Heaven. HOWEVER what saddened me most was her descriptive accounts of "Christians in suffering in Hell" (chapter 6 and 7).
As I review the CT and CU blog sites, I am very alarmed and horrified at how readily fellow Calvarites are hurling insults, abuses and worse condemning each other to HELL just because of differing perspectives! I don't believe that many Calvarites understand that "HELL is VERY VERY REAL!”
I feel I must and have to caution the CT/CU readers without any judgement. Whilst "we are save by grace and grace alone and not by works that anyone should boast" (Eph 2:8-9), STILL once saved is not always saved. We must "WORK out our salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2: 12b) AND "faith without works is DEAD" (James 2:20). You will judge a tree by its fruits and the tree that is planted by the waters (living waters) that sends out its roots into the streams will not fear when the heat (persecution comes) or the drought( financial depression). Its leaves are always green and will not wither and it will never fail to bear fruit in due season. It leaves will also bring healing to the nation (Ezekiel 47:12, Jeremiah 17:8 and Psalm 1: 3). Let us be very sober minded and humble to allow God to search our hearts and see if there be any wickedness in us. Are we trees that bring life in times of acute drought nowadays?? If not, there is still time to REPENT and seek the Living waters that Jesus promised to anyone who is thirsty (John 4:10, 13-14).
I am merely being a Watchman as recorded in Ezekiel 33:3-4 reminding us that "The axe is already at the root of the trees, any every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire -HELL" (Luke 3:9)
Please read this testimonial and modify our actions according to our convictions as lead by the Holy Spirit.
Be richly Blessed,
Dr. Christopher Shun Kong Leng
Dr Chris is refering to a testimony titled VISIT TO HEAVEN, MIRACLE ON EARTH published in Berita Calvary.
I agree with you totally, Josh. Many of us are also wanting to ask Dr Lum the same question: what took you so long?
Let's have a look at the hard evidence.
And we're not WSL either.
Dear Josh
The fact that your name --Josh really puzzled me, as far as I know as an old timer in cc, I have not really met any older Josh, but most of them around teen, kids and 20 something. But you sounded like very old...
You go do what I have proposed to you in the earlier post, and come back and report to CT. Why so 'cheap' and find easy way out? asking for document/evidence from CT/TTG/Concerned Members?
It took TTG and CT and concerned members so much effort and time to collect all the evidence, and you want instant evidence! You think these people so stupid? Just give you what you ask? You better pray and ask God to give to you in that case.
TTG/concerned members, do be careful with people like 'Josh'.
To all those who sound like but claim to be not WSL, I copied this for your action. This place is not an Inquiry room for your to question Dr. Lum. He is running a clinic and need to attend to his patients. He does not have BOD transfering money to his personal account so he don't have to work.
I quote CT,
"We also note that there are a few others, hiding behind pseudo or anonymous names, who, for reasons best known to themselves, attempted to cast doubts on Dr Lum’s comments and views. Some comments can be even construed to be attempts to discredit him.
Dr Lum has informed Calvary Today that he does not take offence to those comments and wishes to inform readers that he is prepared to meet anyone before or after the 10.30am service at DH on any Sunday to clarify his comments or answer any questions. To meet him, please email him at lumsiewheng@yahoo.com.sg to make the appointment. However, he has indicated that he will only respond to those who are willing to identify themselves. He will not respond to anonymous persons.
We want answers from SP & BOD. Please go and tell them we want answers. Why so long still no answer?
Should Christian Take Church Matters to the Police/Authorities?
1 Corinthians 6:1-8 definitely instructs believers to not go to court against one another. To demonstrate that Christians are not capable of forgiving each other and reconcile their own differences is to demonstrate spiritual defeat. Why would someone want to become a Christian if Christians have just as many problems and are just as incapable of solving them?
1 Corinthians 6:4 states "If you then have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge?"
The whole context of 1 Corinthians 6:1-6 is dealing with disputes in the church, but Paul does reference the court system when he says judgments concerning things pertaining to this life. Paul means that in matters of this life that are outside the church, that is why the court system exists. Paul is saying that church problems should not be taken to the court system, but should be judged within the church.
Acts chapter 21 starting with verse 26 talks about Paul being arrested and wrongfully accused of something he did not do. Then the Romans took him and in Chapter 22 starting with verse 24 we read, "The commander brought Paul inside and ordered him lashed with whips to make him confess his crime. He wanted to find out why the crowd had become so furious. As they tied Paul down to lash him, Paul said to the officer standing there, "Is it legal for you to whip a Roman citizen who hasn't even been tried?" Paul used the Roman law and his citizenship to protect himself. There is nothing wrong with using the court system as long as it is done with a right motive and a pure heart.
1 Corinthians 6:7 declares, "Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?" The thing Paul is concerned with here is the testimony of the believer. It would be far better for us to be taken advantage of, or even abused, than it would be for us to push a person even further away from Christ by taking them to court. What is more important, a legal battle, or the battle for a person’s eternal soul?
In summary, should Christians take each other to court over church matters? Absolutely not! Should Christians take each other to court over civil matters? If it can in any way be avoided, no. Should Christians take non-Christians to court over civil matters? Again, if it can be avoided, no. However, in some instances, such as the protection of our own rights (as in the example of the Apostle Paul), it may be appropriate to pursue a legal defence.
References
http://www.harmlessasdoves.com/courts.html
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/1cr06-01.html
PLEASE SEEK GOD'S GUIDANCE AND FROM WISE ELDERS BEFORE REPORTING TO THE AUTHORITIES.
I believe there is really no human action that will resolve the deep seated issues within Calvary. God will defend His own glory so that no human can boast that it was their wisdom that resolved the Calvary saga. The Lord has raised His own intercessors and He will make good what we cannot by human wisdom. Only He knows how to bring into harmony that which is currently in disharmony.
I am also in total agreement with Dr. Christopher Shun Kong Leng about maintaining our Christian character AT ALL TIMES. As I said before, which ever camp you belong to PRO OR AGAINST, we are all brothers and sisters and how much the Lord must be in pain in seeing His children in disharmony. Remember, the Calvary Saga will end one day and we will have to face one another. Let us not regret the words we have uttered carelessly.
Please continue to be a Watchman.
Vijay
The saga in CC has dragged on and on and there are still blinded individuals coming out to share how they are still enlightened by the sermons on Sundays. They intreprete matters in the way they like to hear it.
However, when the truth is revealed to all... everything will be exposed. eg... like the case of Taiwan's Ah Bian. At the beginning the cabinet said there were no wrongs, Ah Bian's wife and children and in laws also said there was no wrong doing.
But todate the cabinet has confessed and bowed down to apologise to the people at the press conference. The children and in-laws have confessed and admitted their wrongs. Ah Bian's wife also confessed the wrong doings and pleaded guilty. Only Ah Bian has refused and is still defiant.
So how long will the holding on go on in CC? Present BOD still going for election? Enough of shame and disgrace have been spilled out. There is no more trust and respect for pastors and BOD now. How can present deacons stand for elections? It is just like a drama fit for a box office movie.
Unless the leaders use underhanded tactics, that is approve more and more new members who are ignorant of happenings for last whole year and who continue to be swayed by all the show and "rah rah rah" from pastors and BOD.
However, despite all the pain and disappointment we thank God that He is sovereign and He will act in His time.
Praise God.
That is all I am asking for. A factual response. I gain nothing from "discrediting" the good doctor despite the implied remarks to the contrary. But that question begets an answer was my point.
Quite correctly you have written, TTG is seeking for answers. Those answers will not be found in this forum - if you will grant me this much. If it is truth we all seek, then let's pray and prepare for AGM - I hope this is open to regular attendees like the EGM that I missed.
As such, once more, I urge, think of those less matured and those not related to Calvary. Does this blog need to be 1,000,000 strong for another celebration? Or can we seek truth with good Christian purpose as mature believers should?
PG, WE LOVE YOU
For preaching to us in times gone by about
Mat 7:12 "Do for others what you want them to do for you”.
If therefore you want us to love you,
You must also love your members
Preach encouraging things over the pulpit.
Be fair to people like Dr. Lum; don’t set up kangaroo courts.
During the coming AGM
Don’t scheme to do nasty things.
Be cordial to your members
Put mikes in easily assessable positions
Don’t cut people short in 2 mins.
It says in Mat 7:12 "Do for others what you want them to do for you”.
You preached it to us
Now you ought to learn it yourself!
yes, pls inform us once AGM date is out so we can go check if our names are still in the voting member list!
Dear Waiting for God's Intervention who said...
"The saga in CC has dragged on and on and there are still blinded individuals coming out to share how they are still enlightened by the sermons on Sundays. They intreprete matters in the way they like to hear it."
Let me say in love, please be careful, the knife cuts both ways. We who are blessed give glory to God.
I agree with the statement that one day, in this life or before God, we will be asked to make an account of ourselves. If indeed it is true and Calvary needs change or even otherwise, how will our conduct be judged before our Lord?
As I mentioned time and time again, this is a public forum that is accessed by non-Calverites, young Christians and even non-believers. Surely it is not the intention of TTG to have this forum built on the foundations of bitterness and spite, right?
Or does it serve better purpose to label me as someone with a hidden agenda or identify me as someone I am not? I am sorry if this angers anyone, that is not my intention.
Shalom.
But we are not talking about any church or spiritual issues. We are talking about governance issues and Finance issues. More like normal ordinary secular issues.
So we can report to the authorities. Need not only the police. It can be IRB!
We just need answers to the pertinent questions posed to the Auditors. Why the long delay? What is there to hide?
It is so simple just let the members and regular worshippers know the truth behind the issues raised.... true or false?
Therefore, we shall not be distracted by the "persecution" against Dr Lum as "the bad guy who caused strife and division in the church". CC leaders are trying to put blame on Dr Lum so that pastors and BOD appear to be the "victims".
This is called DECEPTION!
Thank God for giving wisdom and discernment to TTG and all concerned members and worshippers.
Hi Josh,
I am not Dr Lum nor am I in the TTG core group but I do know Dr Lum personally and I think the answer to yr question is that Dr Lum HAS been fighting all these years for more accountability and transparency whilst he was in the board but he was always overruled and overpowered by the rest of the deacons and PG whenever he tried to speak up. At that time, there were no other people to back him up on this and if he were to do the same thing, ie. resign from the board and reveal all these secrets which have been done by PG and BOD, it would be ineffective to do so as the same thing would have happened but at a even greater repercussion on him, ie. church would terminate his membership, he would be reprimanded by church and the members and worse still, there is no one to believe him and support him. Also, I believe Dr Lum has been keeping it a secret all this while to try and sort all this internally with BOD and PG but due to the stubborness of BOD/PG, no resolution came out of trying to solve it behind closed doors.
Pls correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is a valid reason on why Dr Lum only chose to reveal all these now and not few years back.
PG, IT IS DUE TO A LACK OF SANCTIFICATION
1Th 5:23 May the God who gives us peace make you holy (sanctify you) in every way and keep your whole being---spirit, soul, and body---free from every fault at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Holy Spirit’s Job is to sanctify us as we walk closely with Him.
We can resist the sanctification process
because of pride, arrogance, aggression and stubbornness
Notice that these four always exists as quadruplet in the same person.
Some attributes such a person:
Leg over the table
Never admits he is wrong
Rude and oppressive during AGM
Gives over-the -pulpit messages that criticise other
But condones and exalt self.
Thinks he is the sole interpreter of the bible
Only able to talk down to people
Have no inkling how to have cordial dialogue
In control of everything in the church but pretends he isn’t
Does not like to listen to advice
What will happen?
You be sanctified, PG, with or without your cooperation.
Please, lay off the attacks on Josh. He is asking for information and you reply with insults. Also, what's with the WSL-phobia? Apparently, every single blogger who deviates from the TTG Way is automatically WSL, is that it?
Those of you who are guilty; you disgust me.
Josh, I hope this quick summary clears some stuff up.
WSL was a commenter a while back who posted some seriously poisonous posts under the guise of asking for info. Since then, everyone is on 'WSL-alert' and on the look out for him again.
As for this church case; well, it goes a long way back, a couple of years at least. Basically, it started when in quick succession there were a series of announcements that CCC costs were rising and more money was needed to fund it.
From there, some members discovered that some offerings and monies meant for faith promises (earmarked for missions purposes) were actually going into CIM (PG's personal ministry) without prior approval or knowledge of the members.
At that year's AGM, some practicing accountants in church asked for access to the church accounts and more transparency in the members' reports. Specifically, it was noted that CIM accounts were not presented to the church members. The reasoning is that if church money from members' faith promises is going into CIM, then members should know what is being done with the money.
After this, the accountants began digging into church accounts but were denied requests for information. Intrigued, they pushed further and eventually opened up a whole can of worms, the evidence of which was shared via email among certain members. You can now read this in CalvaryToday's 2008 August posts.
These concerned members began holding meetings independently to decide amongst themselves what to do next concerning the discrepancies. The church objected to this, and an EGM was held instead to provide a forum for any grievances to be aired.
At this point, I'm not too sure what happened as I was busy, so I'll skip to the EGM. Perhaps someone can fill in the timeline summary for me?
At the EGM, the question of the accounts came up, but satisfying answers or even cordial behaviour was not forthcoming; instead deliberate side-stepping (at the least) was observed by members, thus increasing the number of people (initially a handful) who were concerned about the handling of church accounts.
After months of wrangling over the accounts, the accountants discovered that the money had not been used other than for PG to fly overseas to attend some conferences. This led to a lot of talk about mishandling of church accounts for things like first-class air tickets for family members of SP, as well as questions into where the money for cars, houses, etc. belonging to SP came from.
Calls were made to the BoD to resign for having condoned this behaviour. Soon after several ultimatums were issued by the TTG, Dr. Lum resigned and spilled the beans on the BoD concerning questionable accounting practices, personal behaviour and church procedures.
The TTG Blog, meanwhile, was becoming tense and explosive as a lot of arguments erupted online (essentially, 'flame wars'). Yours truly was also involved in them calling for less mud-slinging and poison pen (keyboard?) attacks, and although there were some posts I regret having published for various reasons, I can safely say to this day I am satisfied with how things turned out.
If anyone would like to fill in any gaps in the above summary, or correct me, please feel free to do so.
As for your question, Josh, why the police had not been notified... well, the TTG want to keep this in-house as much as possible, otherwise it'll be headline news in Berita Harian and the Star (maybe even round the world?) that the Christians in Malaysia are fighting amongst each other and some of them have been embezzling money... get it?
Yours,
GMF Index Finger
PG HAS TO SHOW THE EXAMPLE
Luk 12:48 For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required.
You are:
The Senior Pastor of Calvary Church
You have a Honorary Masters and a Doctorate degree
A Datuk & a Tan Sri
40 years in the ministry
20 over years as a AOG Superintendent
And yet:
You can’t give fair hearing to Dr. Lum.
You set up the first Kangaroo Court in CC.
You shout, condemn and curse your congregation.
You lie fully, you tell half lies, you hide the truth.
You have been accused of CBT.
You constantly get into positions of conflict of interest.
Your domination and power control of CC is staggering
You commit nepotism and cronyism.
WHAT A SHAME AND WHAT A SHAM !!
You are certainly no example for us to follow.
I dare you to stand for a re-election by the congregation.
Reaffirm your mandate or you’ll be deemed a coward
Dear Apostle,
Well said. The attributes of that person are TOTALLY CORRECT.
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
Dear Paul,
Yes, I agree. Lets have a new mandate from the church members and see if he is deemed fit to remain as our SP.
In the early seventies, Calvary Church's the senior pastor's term is to be 'reviewed' once every two years as to whether the church members want him or her to remain as the SP.
But of course, the church's constitution has been changed and currently the constitution does not state any retirement age for ths SP. Just imagine, you engage an employee who has no retirement age, whereas you yourself has one. How smart. That means eventually you got to go and the company is his.
Its like inviting a guest to stay in your house but eventually you have to leave the house and the house belongs to him or her.
He should have been a politician.
But he will never agree to have a new mandate from the church.
Hi GMF,
think that's a pretty good short and sweet summary of the events that unfolded over the past many months.
If Josh wants to know more about the full details, I suggest he go read the previous articles in Calvary Today.
A few readers, after reading CU/CK blogs, have asked that I clarify what happened at the Inquiry especially concerning the “aggressiveness” of Dr Lum’s witnesses. If that is what CU/CK reported, I must say I’m very surprised because the only persons there on that AIM floor besides Dr Lum and his witnesses, were Pas Timothy who was guarding the door, Pas Steven who was seated at the reception and Bro Phang Wai.
Unless one of these 3 persons is behind CU/CK or closely linked to CU/CK, then I’d be very puzzled how CU/CK knows what happened. (Could they have planted hidden cameras?) Anyway, neither Dr Lum or his witnesses were aggressive. Only 2 incidents that could be “twisted” as aggressive were:-
a) When I was stopped from entering the AIM office where the Inquiry was held and the other witnesses were crowding at the entrance, one of the witnesses, seeing this, came over and in his excitement, pushed the glass door a little too hard and Pas Timothy had to take a step back. This witness is not one of the “TTG core group” and is a good friend of SP and still drives SP around for SP’s preaching engagements to one of our satellite venue.
b) When Pas Timothy tried to push one of the witnesses out of the AIM office, that witness who was agitated by his action, told Pas Timothy loudly, “Don’t touch me!.”
This witness is also not one of the "TTG core group".
When Pas Steven saw what happened at the doorway, he came over, heard our complaints and got involved as the mediator.
As for the Inquiry, we were very prepared and had hoped that we will be given the opportunity to present our case for ALL the points raised by Dr Lum instead of just 9 items raised by Dato Nelson/BOD. We had all the questions ready for SP, Pam, Pas Chris and all the deacons. Perhaps the BOD should conduct an open Inquiry at the coming AGM so that everything can be brought to the open. Dr Lum has nothing to hide.
Concerning the letters between the BOD and Dr Lum, the gist of them is that the BOD had concluded that Dr Lum’s statements had caused confusion, strife and division in our church. Since our church website, church diaries and a newspaper report have declared that our church has a membership or ministers to more that 10,000 people, the BOD must show evidence by way of audited surveys and statistics that a large majority of them have been confused, experienced strife or witnessed division in our church. The BOD must also prove that these started after Dr Lum’s interview and not before. (Of course, we
all know that the division started at the last AGM when SP called for a vote on the EM accounts. That split vote was the first sign of division seen by Calvarites in our entire 47 years history). The BOD cannot simply shout that there is confusion, strife and division without basis and then charge Dr Lum with unscriptural conduct.
I attend DH services every Sunday but I have never seen any fighting in church. I have not seen any member or worshipper shouting abuses at another or members sitting away from each other in church. I still see members/worshippers sitting together, worshipping God. I still see ‘TTG and non-TTG’ supporters (if there is such a classification because every Christian should be supporting truth, transparency and governance) and pastors greeting each other warmly. Maybe only the BOD feels left out or confused, that’s why they believe there’s confusion, strife and division in Church. But BOD is only 6 persons and 1 Chairman and that’s only a teeny weeny percent of 10,000 people or 1,000 members based on the membership roll. If the BOD feels left out or that they are shunned by people, then it’s an indication that it’s time they resign.
Regarding the call to publish the letters between the BOD and Dr Lum, I don’t think it will be proper. I have discussed with Dr Lum and we have both decided to show the letters to interested members.
For this Sunday and next Sunday, I will be at the DH canteen (CRC) between the 1st and 2nd service while Dr Lum will join me next week. Do come meet us. WSL, Charles, Josh and “disgusted @ March 5, 2009 3:24 PM” are specially invited. No one will be made to sign any gag orders, don’t worry. For you special friends, I will also show you one of the evidence (obtained from overseas) that confirms the truth of one of the issues brought out by Dr Lum.
Hi KC Lim
greetings..thank you for your kind effort to explain and clarify. Yes I agree with you, the church/members should all stand for truth, transparency, good governance.
It is very wise of you and Dr Lum to make the effort to meet those who cant wait to see the truth anyway.
so for them to warrant that Dr Lum's interviews caused confusion and discouragement to the church members, they need to get at least half of our 10,000 members, eg. 5,001 members to come forward and declare that they have indeed been confused and discouraged by Dr Lum. Better start looking for yr witnesses now, BOD!
TTG is not built on foundations of bitterness and spite. TTG is built on the pillars of Truth, Transperancy and Good Governance.
What makes Josh think that concerned members are responding out of bitterness and spite?
No, TTG and concerned members just want to stand up for truth, justice and righteousness in Calvary Church.
Does Josh know that numerous efforts have been made to keep the matters within the leadership and to have the matters addressed by pastors and BOD but in vain? Does Josh know that pastors and BOD have acted in defiance and refused to address or resolve matters?
There were no sincere attempts by PG and BOD to come out to discuss and address issues. They arrogantly swept the issues under the carpet. Good responsible leaders would have done otherwise.
If pastors and BOD had handled matters wisely at the beginning we won't have to reach this point.
I believe TTG and concerned members have been very gracious in handling matters. Besides how can members condone actions, which are wrongly handled and especially when our leaders are supposed to be good examples to the sheep?
What would non believers think? What kind of witness do you want to give to the outside world? How are we to be the salt and light to the world? Why are the moral, governance and integrity standards in church lower than that of the world?
These are serious matters that truly cannot be ignored and swept under the carpet! It is far too dangerous to be simply brushed aside.
Yes, we do not dispute that we are all answerable before God one day for our actions and also our omissions... we choose to fear God and not man, that is why we will speak out when things are not right in Calvary Church leadership.
May God grant us wisdom and discernment in all that we think about, say and do.
I have been following the happenings of Calvary church, but admittedly only via the Net. I believe quite a number, members and non-members alike are doing the same.
I have a question.
In Calvary Today, it is posted the the CLM, the CCM and the Education Resource are business entities? If they are part of Calvary Church, business entities or not, if the money earned goes back to Calvary Church, it should not be a cause of concern.
Can someone clarify this?
Note: I posted this question on both sites.
Thank you.
In reply to "IFollowJesus"; the answer to your question can be found in the three early postings "HM's Memo on Extended Ministies (27.12.07)", "HM's Speech at AGM(28-03-08)" and "Healing and Reconciliation by HM". Please read them in that sequence.
At the 2008 AGM it was declared that the accounts of the Extended Ministries were not given to the members because they did not belong to the Church. The members voted for the accounts to be given and thereby restored ownership of these ministries to the Church. We fought for and won them back. We almost lost them forever.
hong meng
Further to Bro HM’s reply to “IFollowJesus”, CT wishes to state the following facts:-
1. In previous years, none of the extended ministries’ accounts like Calvary Life Ministries (CLM), Calvary Communication Ministry (CCM), Education Resource Centre (ERC), Calvary Bookstore, Calvaryland etc were presented to the members. After the issue was raised by Bro HM in 2007 and after much questioning by concerned members, the unaudited accounts were finally shown to the members at last year’s AGM.
2. The accounts shown revealed that there were surplus money left in CLM, CCM and ERC and none of the surplus money were returned to the main Church accounts.
3.This is a major area of concern as the overheads of these ministries are borne by the Church but the revenue surpluses are kept by the ministries.
4. CLM and CCM are headed by the children of SP and these 2 ministries have the most cash surpluses.
5. At this 2008 AGM, the members voted for the extended ministries’ accounts to be annexed to the main Church accounts for annual reporting against the wishes of SP who wanted to maintain status quo despite advice from the then Church auditor that the extended ministries’ accounts ought to be consolidated or annexed to the main church accounts. Like Bro HM said, we almost lost them forever.
6. The Church treasurer then promised to present the audited accounts of the extended ministries by mid 2008 but until today, nothing has been presented to the members.
7. At a meeting between the BOD and a few concerned members (now ‘labeled’ as TTG members) on 31 May 2008, the TTG members suggested that all surpluses in the extended ministries’ accounts as at the end of each year, be returned to the main Church accounts. This is proper and smart treasury management and as the Church has loans (to build CCC) to service, every dollar reduction in the loan outstanding saves the church interest. Until today, no-one knows if this has been done.
This is precisely why the TTG group has been lobbying for truth, transparency and governance (TTG) from our BOD and SP. Promoting the virtues of TTG is similar to promoting good stewardship but strangely and inexplicably, there is a small group of opposition to this quest for TTG. Using their alternate blogs, they criticize and promote curses on TTG supporters. Pray along with the TTG supporters that God will open their eyes and help them realize that there is a difference between the CT blog , TTG supporters and bloggers who make critical comments. Critical comments maybe acceptable and tolerated but curses should not be condoned.
Thank you Bro. KC for the commentary of the event which took place during this so-called Inquiry and clearing the air.
One specific line about the action of Pastor Timothy Ong speaks volumne about the over-bearing behaviour of a few of our pastors and I quote "when pastor Timothy Ong tried to push one of the witnesses out of the AIM office....."
Excuse me TO, maybe I ask you since when have you switched over from the role of Pastor to Bouncer? This form of behaviour does not reflect well even if you were acting on the order of your boss. By the way, which boss gave you the order to reject fellow Calvarite from church premises. Surely, it cannot be from our Lord Jesus.
Show love and we will show you respect.
What ever happened to Calvary KINDERGARTEN?
I have asked before as far back as few years ago, what was reason for the closure of the Kindergarten, and why wasn't it told to the Congregation. ( Only a handful knew because they heard from the 'grapevine'. However, almost the entire congregation are in the dark till this day! And those who did get to know it were either puzzled or shocked )
Since, having discovered there was such a thing as Extended Ministries,(and that they were autonomous) I now have further questions to ask:
1. Was the Kindergarten also, an Extended MInistry
throughout its existence?
2. If so, who were its Directors ?
3. Where have all the profits gone to ?
4. Why did it ceased operation under dubious circumstances-- i)SAP ( SP's wife) had declared it was an effective 'Ministry' as it was open to all communities, ii) it was announced that it was undergoing 'Renovation' prior to the closure! ( so, was it a lie then ?)
Consider all the hidden matters now exposed, Is it any wonder, why TTG"s proposed TRUTH COMMISSION ought to be established?
I sincerely hope those who still want to defend the
"INDEFENSIBLE" acts of abuse, deceit, dishonesty, misconduct,etc, which have been so amply substantiated, to take a good hard look at all issues raised herein CT, and then review their stand again.
In God we trust.
Hello friends,
The bouncer thing has already happened all these years.
Dont your remember the AGM or EGM?
Who were sitting or standing beside all the mics?
Since the "Moving Forward" paper given out at the EGM we have not heard further from pastors and BOD what moves or actions have been taken.
So many months have passed and gone. I remember it was the resolution of pastors and BOD that they will improve communications between church leaders and members but so far what has been done? Nothing much. In fact there was hardly any communications. Fire fighting yes.
Further, we witness the springing up of CU and CK to undermine and attack the search for Truth, Transperancy and Good Governance in CC. More harm has been done rather than good.
So what has happened to the Constitutional Review Committee? We have no news about what has been done. Or is it just to keep TTG and concerned members quiet? Please show us what has been deliberated on and what action steps are to be taken.
Certainly pastors and BOD cannot be saying one thing and not doing anything concrete. Members have a right to know the progress. There is nothing to hide.
Thanks Liza for reminding us that TTG proposed a Truth Commission but it was ignored. If matters are not openly revealed and clarified then the problems will boil and they will not just evaporate and fade away.
Let CC leaders come out humbly to resolve matters in the open and declare they speak and live by the truth just as our Lord Jesus would have wanted them to do.
May their lives be exemplary of their calling as God's servants filled with love and compassion for the sheep and the lost rather than lording over all.
God have mercy on us all.
I see that yet another blog has been set up over this issue, and there we go again with the endless cyber-squabbles.
Very nice.
CU/CK (being one and the same), I have a rhetorical question; what is the point of this website? Allow me to answer; from what I can see, the only point of this website is to serve as a counterpoint to TTG, simply for the sake of having another voice shouting needlessly into the wind.
Originally, I believed CU/CK intended to point out mistakes being made by the CT (of which there are plenty), but as I read on, I can see now that it was never the point of this blog to provide constructive criticism of CT. In the space of a month or so, the theme of the posts in this blog has subtly changed from a humble finger aimed at the mistakes of CT to an arrogant voice blustering about the error of TTG.
Concurrently, the voices of the administrators in this blog have gradually changed from a supposedly mature person espousing 'unity', peace and virtue to a temper-tantrum-throwing baby screaming and haranguing TTG-supporters and calling curses on their heads.
Nice. If indeed this is the kind of people on the SP side - irrational and mercurial in temper, as opposed to rational and peaceful in nature - then I can see for myself now the rot eating at the core of the church.
Congratulations, CU/CK. You've just effectively turned the tables on yourself.
Dear Datuk KC,
pls update us if people like Why So Long or Charles bothered approaching you this morning to have a look at the docs....if they didn't, then my suggestion is that these people stop critizising CT and TTG as it merely shows that these PG supporters are not interested in knowing the facts and looking at the evidences. They are just trying to shut up those who want truth and transparency in the church and will go to any lengths (including hurling curses) to stop PG's dirty secrets from being exposed.
Why are our AP so loyal, faithful and fearful of this man?
I can only guess and it could be due to one or a combination of the following reasons:
1. Treat him like a god;
2. Rice bowl depends on him. Cos if he does not sign or endorse their ministry each year, they are out of the church and cannot minister.
3. Other financial, direct or indirect, support which are only known to them, if any;
4. Scolded them too much that they are fearful of him. I have heard so many people telling me that he scolds you until you cry. I understand most if not all of the church staff including APs have had this experience.
5. Get promotions easier if listen to him. Things like jaga him outside a public toilet, accompany him for all lunches during work days, escort him whenever he is outside the church, etc.
There could be more.
Maybe we should ask all the pastors to declare their assets on a yearly basis, including their children's.
If the ministers and government servants can do it, why not the church?
6.
The Inevitable Penalty
"You will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny"
Matthew 5:26
There is no heaven that has a little corner of hell in it.
God is determined to make you pure, holy, and right, and He will not allow you to escape from the scrutiny of the Holy Spirit for even one moment.
He urged you to come to judgment immediately when He convicted you, but you did not obey.
Then the inevitable process began to work, bringing its inevitable penalty.
Now you have been "thrown into prison,(and)...you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny" (Matt 5:25,26).
Yet you ask, "Is this a God of mercy and love?"
When seen from God's perspective, it is a glorious ministry of love.
God is going to bring you out pure, spotless, and undefiled, but He wants you to recognize the nature you were exhibiting - the nature of demanding your right to yourself.
The moment you are willing for God to change your nature,
His recreating forces will begin to work.
And the moment you realize that God's purpose is to get you into the right relationship with Himself and then others,
He will reach to the very limits of the universe to help you take the right road.
Decide to do it right now, saying, "Yes, Lord, I will be reconciled to the members now"
Theses sermons of Jesus Christ are meant for your will and your conscience, not for your head. If you dispute these verses from the Sermon from the Mount with your head, you will dull the appeal to your heart.
Extract from 'My Utmost for His Highest'
Oswald Chambers
Just want to let all our readers know that there was an announcement over the pulpit yesterday. Details :
Subject : Financial Governance Workshop.
Date and time : Saturday, 14th March, 2:00 pm - 5:00 pm
The Financial Governance task force has completed their job and ready to share with all Calvary members and regular worshippers. There will be a Q&A after ther workshop.
All Calvarites should ask these 3 questions:
1. Senior Pastor, to prove your innocent, please disclose volunteerily all your love gifts from overseas since day 1 you are Senior Pastor? List down in chronology each and every gift from where and when. (PMs and Presidents do that. Why are you exempted?)
2. Deacons, past and present, why did you not formulate a policy on Senior Pastor's overseas gifts and allow him to form a bad habit of collecting gifts without declaring to the church, especially when church money was used to finance his trips overseas?
3. Administrator of CU/CK, you are so good at dissecting character, behaviour and action of TTG members, can you be equally good (if not better)to dissect Senior Pastor's character, behaviour and actions in regards to love gifts collected over decades and yet not a single sen is disclosed? Please comment as we know you are good at it.
PS. We would like to see Senior Pastor, Deacons and CU/CK administrator providing us answers to above 3 questions on character test
To: Pastors
Can I ask :
a. is it wrong to pray whereever we are?
b. why then calvary church holds prayer meeting and publish on internet with some photos--eg. googgle search--some of calvary news prints..
c. why then i saw pastors lay hand
and pray for some people around the open space, so is it wrong?
d. can i ask, why then when the TTG pray, they were being critcized?
e. so, in that case, ppl who supported SP can ask question, pray, n criticize but TTG cannot la?
f. So, in calvary church , we are only allow to be a 'spiritual dwarf'?
g. so, calvary chuch supported other blog which curse God fearing people but support Ungodly conduct?
Thank you LONG TIME BOUNCERS for the enlightening revelation that many associate pastors have been carrying out order and acted irresponsibly for many years during annual meetings and extra-ordinary general meetings. In a church assembly and meetings we do not need bouncers. Could you imagine the consequences if the person concerned were to react physically to Ps.Timothy Ong's childish provocation pushing a witness who has every spiritual and legal right to be present. God forbid if there were any ulterior motive to Timothy Ong's action that morning. Pastor Timothy Ong, please control yourself and before you act do remember to seek the Lord for some spiritual guidance/wisdom.
We confess that many of us have contributed to satisfying one person's hunger for power greed and control over the silent majority of faithful and obedient congregation. I must confess that I have not attended any previous AGMs/EGMs until the very recent EGM when BODs after the meeting had made an open declaration to "MOVE FORWARD". I suppose meaning to rid the Calvary Church of further deepening rot on abuse of power etc. And by the way, BODs must keep us fully posted of any visible and positive progress. The recent sacking and subsequent holding of a poorly constituted panel of inquiry (or a kangaroo court) does not inspire confidence.
The consequence of all our inaction and pampering in the past many years has produced a spoilt kid. Stop giving him candy from now on and let him just cry for a change....
Replying to: "Extreme Loyal Pastors" -
Yes, I've actually witnessed some of the things you've said and I was really shocked to see such enslavement in the church because I don't even experience such "kow-tow" in places where I've worked.
Jesus washed his disciples' feet. He taught us about servant leadership.
If Dr Lum can avail himself to questions after Sunday service, why can't PG and the BOD do the same? That's cause PG and BOD exercise no transparency. They want church members to "kow-tow" to them and play hypocrites, act blur and just accept silence as the blueprint for peace and unity. This is exactly the way they treat the APs and their staff. I have experienced this personally with the church staff and one of the APs. I was flabbergasted. But I kept telling myself - no one is perfect except Christ. But after a while, I began to realise that this just wasn't a norm in most other churches I've been with.
I was at the DH canteen (CRC) yesterday from 9.45am until just before the 2nd service started at 10.30am.
Only 6 Calvarites (3 ladies and 3 men) came and viewed the documents.
One of the ladies is an investigative auditor with an international firm while 2 of the men were church leaders). Unfortunately, neither WSL, Charles, Josh or "Disgusted" came. (I can never imagine anyone coming up to me and say, "Hi, I'm Disgusted". Anyway, if you do come next Sunday, just say you're the 4th person. I will not ask any questions)
Besides the letters between the BOD and Dr Lum, I also showed them the proof of evidence from overseas which backs one of Dr Lum's allegations. As a bonus, I also showed them 2 search reports which indicated that SP and SAP lied concerning a certain matter.
Next Sunday, Dr Lum and I will be at the DH CRC again between the 1st and 2nd service. Do come and meet us.
To KKB re Financial Workshop coming
Saturday
I think you have overlooked to inform readers of the venue.
Thanks
I seriously don't think it's worth our time to even bother voting for any of the nominees for BOD as they are all proven yes men & yes women of PG. Existing deacons like BT and PW should not even consider running again for deacon as they have failed the members tremendously....BT and PW, if you are reading this, we are very disappointed in you both.
Dear all,
Re: Financial Governance Workshop
Venue : Calvary Church, Damansara Heights
I urge all to understand to hear what the task force has done and what they will tell us. Also, there is a Q&A session (hopefully, without 'bouncers'). What I really want to hear is about the salaries; how do they intend to salary administration of everybody who works in church. There should not be two different 'bodies' to administer the salaries.
Please be clear in your mind that whatever the Task Force is doing or proposing now has nothing to do with the church accounts inclusive of the missions and extended ministries accounts which will be required to be passed and approved by the church voting members at the coming AGM.
How about the "Constitutional Review Workshop"? Any wind of this happening too?
Can we expect a real thoroughly well deliberated and considered job done by the right people with relevant expertise and not a half-baked job?
Will there be a 'workshop' for briefing members about the progress of that matter?
Any opportunity for all to have a Q & A session too?
Surely matters have to be seriously addressed as most of the ills arose out of the wide....wide powers given to the SP and BOD.
We all know the saying: "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Now is the time for change and review of the Constitution and ensure greater accountability and responsibilty from concerned office bearers towards members.
Certainly the standards of transperancy, accountability and governance in church must be higher than that of the world, not the other way round.
CC leaders must lead the way forward not backwards! Hence, we need the right leaders in pastors and BOD namely strong principled, God fearing men and women, not condescending and man fearing persons.
Contrary to what "AGM Church Accounts" has said, please be clear in your mind that whatever the Finance Governance Task Force is doing or proposing has EVERYTHING TO DO with the church accounts inclusive of the missions and extended ministries accounts. Yes these accounts will have to be presented at the AGM for adoption but whatever the Finance Task Force is doing IS a direct consequence of these accounts.
Did not we (including me) ask for more transparency and good governance vis-a-vis the accounts? Did not we (including me) wanted a review of what we have been doing with a purpose of making changes so that there will be less suspicion and more accountability? Did not we (including me) directly or indirectly ask for a task force to be formed to look into these?
Please be objective ... the Finance Governance Task Force is the best thing that has happened vis-a-vis the requirement from many of us for transparency & good governance. Let us all support them with the view of moving forward.
Their willingness to hold a "workshop" to share and hear from the members and concern worshippers speaks volume of them. Let us go to the "workshop" to hear and contribute POSITIVELY so that the church can move forward, at least in this area. Please don't go with the view to find fault.
That being said, and like I have commented before, the Constitution Review Committee on the other hand is totally opposite from the good work done by the Finance Governance Task Force. This Committee (CRC) is most disappointing .... sigh ... and sigh again!
Dear dear Discernment Needed,
What I meant was that the church accounts to be passed and approved by the voting members are for transactions is the last financial year.
What the Task Force is proposing now should be for the future or from the next financial year. Their propoosal has not been adopted yet.
So I dont think they have adopted any good or proposed Governance principles or policies in the last financial year.
So what I am trying to say is that dont be confused by them thinking that the accounts to be approved in the coming AGM has already adopted all the principles proposed in the Task Force. It has not. Otherwise most laymen would just thought it has, and the accounts just passed without problems or issues.
I hope I make myself clear.
By the way, I am not an accountant.
Maybe an accountant can correct or comment on this.
Sorry, typo error in the first sentence.
Should be " ...for transactions IN the last financial year."
Let us be alert and not be caught unawares. If there are questions posted to the Finance G. Task Force, do make sure that we get a satisfactory answer. Let us hope the TF will not be vague on certain points.
What I am worried is that they could use this TF meeting as a means of eliminating all questions on the accounts at the coming AGM and say "Oh those questions were raised at the TF meeting on 14 March and answered. We will not entertain any queries already raised at the 14 March meeting"
So if you do not get any satisfactory answers to your query on Saturday you may not be able to raise them again.
"He has granted to us His precious and magnificient promises..."
"Whosoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."
2 Peter 1:4; Romans 10:11 (NAS)
"Did you ever see a rainbow in the clouds reflecting jewel rays of the setting sun?
Such a lovely thing GOD did for us when He put His bow in the sky... "
from:- Treasures of the Heart
I believe that whatever the trials and difficulties we are facing in Calvary Church they will soon pass away through God's mercy and His sovereign rule and reign in CC.
There is a beautiful rainbow to be ushered in after this great storm. The Church will be revived and refreshed by God's powerful visitation again. Hallelujah!!
In the meantime we are to persevere in earnest prayer and fasting.
Come Holy Spirit, come Sweet Spirit we pray....Come and fill Your lambs, we pray.
Commenting on "Not So Trusting" concern ....
I believe the coming "workshop" organised by the Finance Governance Task Force is not to discuss the existing accounts but to share what they think should be the changes in matters of finance going forward for better transparency, good governance and may I add more accoutability.
We should not expect them to answer questions concerning the existing accounts and as such I don't think the "workshop" is the correct platform/place to raise questions/issues regarding the existing accounts if some of you are thinking/planning to do - i.e. to scrutinise the facts and figures. I believe these should be clarified during the AGM. As I understand it, the "workshop" will concentrate on "how we have been doing things, i.e. the process, structure, definitions, etc... and not the actual facts and figures of the existing accounts.
ALso "AGM Church Accounts" is right that the new/proposed framework/process is not "found" in the existing accounts and there's nothing wrong in that as we need to appreciate that this is a "Moving Forward" initiative.
If we go to the "workshop" with the objective of finding common grounds to move forward, I think the time will be well spent and there will be alot of positive and encouraging moments ... I am looking forward to the "workshop"!
Hi...anyone care to update abt this constitution review committee and what is happening or what is not happening with it?? church has been so kwai kwai she she about it that most of us members are kept in the mum.
WHY is Calvary church leadership in TTG CRISIS?
The word *'Truthfulness' came clearly to me during the Sunday Worship Service on 13 July 2008, which I subsequently shared it with BOD in an email dated 14 July 2008 regarding my concerns on CIM then. I received no reply nor acknowledgement.
Nevertheless,till this day, *this remain the main contention concerned members has with the leadership of PG & BOD in CC
And may this deep and profound extract from the writings of this great **disciple of Christ, challenge us never to compromise on TRUTHFULNESS, which we asked of those in the present leadership.
In the book 'The Cost of Discipleship' ( by **Dietrich Bonhoeffer) it expounded on *'TRUTHFULNESS' from the Sermon on the Mount by Jesus. Matt 5. 33-37.
It says:
" The COMMANDMENT of complete truthfulness is really only another name for the totality of discipleship. Only those who follow Jesus and cleave to him are living in COMPLETE truthfulness."
" THERE IS NO TRUTH TOWARDS JESUS WITHOUT TRUTH TOWARDS MAN.
Untruthfulness destroys fellowship, but truth cuts
---------------------------------------false fellowship to pieces and establishes genuine
---------------------------------------brotherhood.
We cannot follow Christ unless we LIVE in REVEALED TRUTH before GOD and MAN"
Let's reflect on the above, and perhaps, we can find the answer to the question posed in the headline.
Yes, as believers we should be all for Truthfulness and being truthful to God and man at all times.
Certainly there is absolutely no room for anything outside of truthfulness.
If we are not honest and truthful before man how can we be honest and truthful before GOD? We will be lying if we say we are right before GOD when what we do before man is to hide the truth...and pretend that all is well.
We pray for our leaders in Calvary Church that they will stand up for truthfulness before God and man at all times. There is no way they can compromise on this matter.
If they do otherwise, what kind of testimony are they giving to members and worshippers, and the outside world?
Hello update?
Up to now I can safely say there is no news yet from the Constitution review committee. One wonders why. Maybe too busy with personal work. The whole church of _,___ number of members waiting and they can keep quiet. Sigh.. sigh...
Wonder how long Dr Lum have to wait for the verdict to his Inquiry.
I hope they are not set up for show only. You know, show only - no action required committee.
We'll have to wait and see. But we should be there for the Finance Taskforce committee this sat.
thanks for the update, no news yet....but really feel quite tired mentally and emotionally to go to the taskforce meeting this sat. feel that the church leaders have been playing us too often, and this meeting will probably be the same. call it a gut feeling..but being let down consistently by our so called pastors are really draining to the soul.
A basketball in my hands is worth about $19
A basketball in Michael Jordan's hands is worth about $33 million.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A baseball in my hands is worth about $6.
A baseball in Roger Clemens' hands is worth $475 million.
It depends on whose hands it's in.
A tennis racket is useless in my hands. A tennis racket in Andre Agassi's hands is worth millions.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A rod in my hands will keep away an angry dog.
A rod in Moses' hands will part the mighty sea.
It depends whose hands it's in.
A slingshot in my hands is a kid's toy. A slingshot in David's hand is a mighty weapon.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in my hands is a couple of fish
sandwiches. Two fish and 5 loaves of bread in Jesus' hands will feed thousands.
It depends whose hands it's in.
Nails in my hands might produce a birdhouse.
Nails in Jesus Christ's hands will Produce salvation for the entire world.
It depends whose hands it's in.
As you see now, it depends whose hands it's in
So put your concerns, your worries, your fears, your hopes, your dreams,
your families and your relationships in God's hands because..
It depends whose hands it's in.
An Invitation has been given by the FGTF Team.
To go or not go is in your hands. What will YOU do with it?
What happens this Saturday will depend on WHOSE Hands it's in!
I agree with 'No News Yet Said...' that we should make an effort to attend the 'workshop' tomorrow. Let us show our sincerity that we really want to move forward; and not like the proverbial empty vessels. It does not mean that we have to agree with what the committee says; if there is any point that we do not agree, speak up. My suggestion is that when we ask questions, we should qualify that it is our own question; not representative of anybody (lest they do not allow another person to do a follow-up question or clarification on the same subject). Probe and ask until we are satisfied. Finally, there must be sufficiency of independence in whatever board or committee that the task force suggests.
Morning Everybody,
Please log into calvary.org under FINANCIAL GOVERNANCE TASK FORCE
UPDATE fot the latest info. and get your updated.
God Bless
What is the full URL for calvary.org? I tried this but error message "service unavailable" http://calvary.org/
Sorry, the church website is www.calvary.org.my
Go here:
http://www.calvary.org.my/FGTF/fgtf.html
Good post, Hands. Yes, the ball is now in our court. We should go to the workshop in order to see what action Calvary is taking and whether it is good.
Discernment, please bear in mind the EGM also was supposed to 'clear' this mess up. Instead, look at the farce it became. I'm not saying you're wrong; we SHOULD attend the workshop. All I'm saying is maybe we shouldn't get our hopes too high up.
Not So Trusting is right. We must all be on our guard.
I read the alternate blog post and thank them for drawing my attention to it.
Now, a short summary. In effect, the post states that deacons should not be considered representatives of the people but should be considered the pastor's advisors. Also, it states that 'the pastor's vision drives the church' and as such, all the ministries are personal.
The obvious conclusion I suppose is that the TTG should not complain about the pastor personally handling the accounts and the deacons should not be treated like they are supposed to be a 'system of checks and balances.'
Now, this is where I have to disagree. Let me begin by making a comparison between so-called 'evil' corporate practices in the 'evil world' and Calvary Church's practices, which is the main focus of this whole affair.
1. The 'evil' world institutes a system of checks and balances so that those in power will (hopefully) go about their tasks according to law and not be corrupt.
The 'CC' world as written by the alternate blog states that there are no checks and balances to ensure the Pastor and his assistants (the deacons) are not corrupt, and the people are supposed to trust and pray that the pastor is doings things according to procedure.
There is a lot of talk (too much talk) in the Christian world about distancing ourselves from the 'wickedness' of the world. It appears to me that via the example shown above that us Christians think that we are 'above the standards' of this world and we don't have to institute things like checks and balances because as the Lord's Anointed (heaven forbid you 'touch' him!) he is not to be checked upon nor should there be a balance to weigh him against.
I shall not mince words here. That is an incredibly stupid state of thinking and if it is true, then the world's 'evil' standards have already surpassed our own 'higher Christian' standards. There should be auditors who are allowed to check on the Pastors and make sure they're not stealing money, drinking, gambling or womanising. There is Biblical precedent for this; when David the King of Israel had an affair with Bathsheba, the chief prophet Nathan told him off.
These checks and balances are not to catch pastors who go out of line. These checks and balances are to ensure that pastors, being man and sinful like the rest of us, are prevented from doing something they shouldn't and thus dragging the whole church into sin.
2. Next, the 'evil' world also makes a clear distinction between personal and organisation accounts, particularly in accounting and law where this principle is called the 'separate entity principle'. The essence of the principle is 'your money is your money but the Church money is the Church's money'. Accounts must reflect transactions up to the point where the money goes out of the church. After that, it's no longer the organisation's business how the money is spent.
In the 'CC' world (as implied by the official website and told to us by alternate blog), the Church ministries are personal ministries of the Senior Pastor and when money goes from one 'personal' account (Missions) into another 'personal' account (CIM) even when the transactions are not reflected in the financial statements given to members at the AGM, then we should not complain.
However, the 'CC' world is grounded in reality (I hope) and 1 principle that I feel the Pastor and the Deacons (as well as too many members of the church) have failed to understand is that we have to obey and abide by the rules and the laws of the world. Jesus himself said this, via the parable of the Roman tax.
The laws of Malaysia state that we must (WE MUST!) treat the Pastor's personal money and the money given to the Church to carry out missions as two different accounts and we must record money going out of Missions and into CIM and tell the members about it. The laws of Malaysia state that we must treat the Church as a separate organisation and not 'Pastor's personal ministry' due to certain tax laws, exemptions, requirements etc. that we claim.
So in summary, there is no adequate system of checks and balances in Calvary Church to ensure the pastor isn't misusing money or behaving in an unChristianly manner. Also, as implied by the Church's charter, the entire Church is the pastor's personal ministry, so to speak, and the money going into it is his to decide how to spend and appropriate.
For the first point, realising this we should immediately set up a system of checks and balances to ensure the pastors don't misappropriate money.
For the second, well, I don't give two sen what the Church's charter says. The Laws of Malaysia say otherwise. Period. The so-called 'spiritual' types will of course raise a hue and cry at this, but that's how it is.
Chasing the moneychangers out,
Tables Turned
wah, no wonder PG and his family, even his granddaughter seems to think the church funds belong personally to them...
Well Said, "Table Turned".
Thank you for 'exposing' the Alternate blog for propagating twisted, and outright misleading
"justifications" to fool members & worshippers alike.
Obviously what their defination of BOD's role contradict the AOG's Position paper on this-- it
makes one wonder if indeed their right hand knows
what their left hand is doing? Often those busy trying to cover their tracks, end up with more dirt along the way.
May God grant you boldness to tell all present at the FGTF meeting, so everyone there will be enlightened.
God is good. Praise Him.
Everybody outside knows that the mentality taken by PG and family concerning Calvary Church moneys is wrong. But how come pastors and BOD and PG supporters think there is nothing wrong and even justify PG's conduct and attitude?
From day one of this saga we already sense that in Calvary Church, church business has been regarded as "personal business of the SP"....what is the reasoning?
Well, "the anointed one" is appointed by God and a "vision" has been revealed to him, so you as members must follow his vision and plan. If you as members don't agree then you should go, if you want to stay then you better be quiet and follow as you are supposed to.
If you try to question the plan or ways of "the anointed one's wishes and doings" then you (TTG and concerned members)are creating disunity in church so you are under the influence of the evil one! So that is why the alternate blogs (mouth-pieces of the establishment) rained condemnations and curses on TTG and all who stand up for truth, justice and rigtheousness.
Everyone against the establishment has been labelled to be the opposition ("the opposing camp under the rule of the evil one") and against unity in the church. Isn't this the ways of the world? Sounds familiar and coming out of the mouths of pastors from CC's pulpit. Shocking for many outside the church!
Despite it all we know God is seated on the throne, He knows the hearts and intentions of all men.
Our Heavenly Father will bring all things to past. Only that we must pray that we remain faithful to Him, no matter what persecutions and abuses we have to go through.
OUR GOD REIGNS! Hallelujah.
definitely not "anointed" but certainly extremely annoying and not practising what he preaches from the pulpit when some discerning members speak up for truth. The pulpit is a hallow place and not a hollow place to dispense unscriptural statements and clearly making it a mockery to many worshippers.
An anointed pastor must show love utmost mercy and compassion win the lost and not drive away the worshippers and members who have the courage to stand up for truth transparency and good governance. Statements such "you go jump into the lake" etc etc is annoying and childish.
Hey Bro KC,
Was at the crc this morning and saw Pastor PO talking to you. Did he also want to see the evidence?
Hi Calvarites
Please put pressure on FGTF to look into the following areas:
1. Since Calvary Church is a congregational church, Check and Balance is paramount. Based on various inputs, there is great wisdom to have Elders, besides Deacons and Pastors as Church Structure.
2. As suggested by a brother, these committees ought to be incorporated immediately: Audit, Human Resource and Remuneration, Financial and Accounts.
3. On Extended Ministries, all must be owned by the church. None should be spinned off. Counselling (CLM) is part and parcel of any Church. Similarly for Tape ministries (CCM), Prayer Tower, Education Resource Centre (just like Calvary Kindergarden), Book Shop, Creative Arts. SP's family members are controlling all these revenue generating businesses. These practices must stop before further rot. No wonder a sister came forward and decried 'nepotism'. Nepotism has its urgly head in our Malaysian politics. We don't need one in church. Also, we can't afford this abuse of position and power by any pastor.
No, PO wanted to stop Bro KC from seeing the evidence.
THE "ONE MAN PASTOR" SYSTEM IS NOT IN THE BIBLE
Most churches today are run using the 'Senior Pastor' model, where one man does most of the ministering and is looked up to as "the man of God".
Few could deny that pastors are truly the ones who are running the church today.
Such an arrangement can lead to an abuse of power.
Let us examine the facts of the matter and find out what the Bible has to say about this current arrangement
In the Book of Acts, which is the history of the first 30 YEARS of the early church, the word 'Pastor' is NOT EVEN MENTIONED ONCE.
This is pretty shocking considering how often we use it today.
In fact, even in the whole New Testament the word is only used rarely - especially when referring to ministry 'OFFICES'.
And when it does appear, it is found near the BOTTOM OF A LIST of ministries in the church: "It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers..." (Eph 4:11, NIV).
There were elders and 'overseers' (these terms are inter- changeable) in the New Testament church.
But that is totally different from the position of "one man pastor" that we have today.
So how did Pastors end up running everything?
And what effect does this have on the church?
Well, when you study history it becomes obvious that we mostly got this concept from Rome - NOT from the Bible.
As Beckham said: "Emperor Constantine developed a church structure that has lasted for seventeen centuries... People go to a building (cathedral) on a special day of the week (Sunday) and someone (a priest, or today, a pastor) does something to them (teaching, preaching, absolution or healing) or for them (a ritual or entertainment) for a price (offerings)."
In most cases, what we are seeing today is the continuation of this "Clergy and Laity" system that dominated the church during the Dark Ages. There is very little difference, really.
The titles have changed but apart from that it is basically the old Roman Catholic system of professional 'Priests' running everything.
We call them 'pastors' but the position is basically the same.
These are people who have gained a degree from Bible College, and now we pay them to be our "minister".
Never mind the fact that we are ALL supposed to be ministers!
What this results in is two different 'classes' in the church.
The "ministering" class and the "churchgoing" class (or 'laity').
But is it really that bad?
What harm does it really do?
Below are the specific ways that this "one man pastor" model does enormous harm to the church:
(1) It puts one person on a pedestal - above all others. In many churches this veneration of the pastor closely resembles Idolatry. His word is law and the entire church revolves around this one man.
(2) This leads directly to PRIDE. The position that we place these men in is terribly dangerous for them and for the whole church.
It is very difficult NOT to develop Pride when treated in this way.
Pride is the most subtle and spiritually fatal of diseases. It wreaks havoc wherever it finds a home.
(3) Control, manipulation and spiritual abuse become common where power is concentrated in the hands of one 'venerated' figure. Power corrupts. Flattery corrupts. Veneration corrupts.
And before you know it, people are being terribly damaged and wounded by the control and the "management techniques" being exerted from the top.
Then new teachings on "COVERING" AND "SUBMISSION" are wheeled out, to lend an air of legitimacy to the oppression that is being visited upon people.
Everyone is told to 'submit' and not to question. The "one man pastor" system lends itself to this whole scenario like a hand in a glove. It is virtually made for it.
(4) It turns the church into a bunch of "spectators". In other words, everybody sits around and watches while the 'professionals' do most of the work. It is their "job" after all.
This is an absolute disaster.
For we ALL have gifts and callings and anointing from God.
(5) The position lends itself to "robes and titles" - or perhaps expensive 3-piece suits!
Jesus said to his disciples, "YOU ARE NOT TO BE CALLED 'RABBI,' because you have ONLY ONE MASTER and you are ALL BROTHERS.
And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have ONE TEACHER, THE CHRIST." (See Matt 23:5-12, NIV).
None of this seems to stop men from taking on "titles" today.
(6) At the end of the day, just like church buildings, the best reason for rejecting this model of leadership is that it is simply NOT IN THE BIBLE.
SO HOW DID THEY DO THINGS IN THE NEW TESTAMENT?
Well, the first thing we need to realize is that the apostles were not "professionals".
Apart from Paul they had never been to Bible College. (These were run by the Pharisees!)
Most of the apostles were simple fishermen and tax-collectors.
But they had spent MUCH TIME WITH JESUS. -That was their qualification.
And it is clear that PASTORS WERE NEVER IN CHARGE OF THE CHURCH.
It was the APOSTLES who were given that role.
But they never "LORDED IT OVER" the people.
And wherever they went they appointed elders or overseers (PLURAL) to watch over the church in their absence.
Unfortunately, some Bible translations use the word "Bishop", which gives the impression of a 'HIERARCHY'.
But this was not in the original. As Greek scholar W.E. Vine states: "'PRESBUTEROS', an elder, is another term for the same person as bishop or overseer. See Acts 20:17 with verse 28."
So these were just simple "elders" - that's all.
It was only when the church fell into serious decline and then into Romanism that the complicated "hierarchies" began.
Before this, it was all very simple.
PERHAPS ONE DAY IT WILL BE SO AGAIN?
Good Start FGTF.
Let BOD sits on top of SP chart
Must not be happy too soon Positive Note. No difference who is on top. BOD still has SP as the Chairman. So where you put BOD no difference, SP is still on top running things. With BOD on top, it will look good for SP and he can say, see it's BOD not me. Like a brother said, the whole chart if studied carefully is a flip from one side to the other. At the end it't no change at all just a flip, left to right.
Maybe PO wants to resign like Dr Lum too... He talk to KC cause he'll need a job... lol!
To David,
You have to re-look at the use of apostle and pastor in today's context.
I understand apostle as being a messenger of God. The Bible also gives an understanding that an apostle is one who has "seen" or "sensed" God in a direct manner, as in Paul (Saul's) case. Also the 12 disciples, because they were with Jesus.
Apostles were usually missionaries and church planters.
Pastor on the other hand is understood as shepherd and I think we all agree on this.
It is unfair to separate the role of apostle, pastor, overseer. An apostle can also carry the role of or act as a pastor but not the other way round.
We call our leaders "pastors" because it the easiest way to refer to them. In a casual sense, I could call them Father or Priest but it doesn't make them any less of being an apostle if they were one.
It's always nice to go back to historical references but Christianity is constantly re-written and re-understood through the ages. We must be careful not to use history as an example to follow, but rather to learn and improve.
You may be right, using the pastor as the administrator of the church may not the best way to run it as per the Roman practice. But it doesn't make the pastor's work any less important than an apostle's work in the kingdom.
I take it you're not from an AOG church, I was from a Bretheren church so I understand where you're coming from.
Will.
Organisation chart thrown on the screen on Saturday is blurl blurl to many of us!!! Who initiated and endorsed it?
1.WHM brought up very good points on this matter -maybe for the benefit of those who did not attend, he should give us a summary. In fact he should sit on the Task Force Committee!!!
From my perspective, as long as SP is chairman of BOD, BOD cannot carry out their duties impartially and look after the interest of cc
congregation. If they can, then we will not be in the present mess.
2. Task Force - independent? ER and HJK are there and as they are part of BOD which is headed by SP, how independent and unbiased can they be?
TASK force should comprise NON-BOD if they are really sincere in pushing for changes; when they come up with a draft (everyone should have a hard copy to be handed out in advance of meeting; not like the meeting on 14.3.09 where nobody gets any hard copies)just present recommendations to congregation at egm, pass it and then that becomes governance manual.
Consitutional changes - may we have an update? Again what assurance do we have they will work independently when the team again consists of members from BOD.
Even in the running of the church, BOD is practising nepotism
A CONCERNED MEMBER
I have always commented of your impartiality in allow comments ... any reason why my thoughts on the Finance Governance Task Force (and the workshop that we just had) and also the Constitution Review Committee has not been allowed? Calvary Unity has posted my comments notwithstanding my very "negative" comments on the Constitution Review Committee.
There is no need to post this comment. However I would be most disappointed if my earlier comments are not allowed.
Tks.
Dear Discernment Needed,
CT has not received your stated comment. Could have been due to some glitch. CT would appreciate if you could re-post your comments.
As long as comments are not against our guidelines and are in relation to the topics being discussed, CT will publish them.
God bless.
true, task force shouldn't say they are independent if they aren't...they should just be honest about it. 2 current deacons and 1 current auditor do not a independent task force make! And how come there are absolutely no TTG members in the taskforce at all?
Where is the independence of Financial Governance Task Force (FGTF) when Deacons are still involved? We hear them singing the same tune and even asserting that "SP is the CEO in Calvary Church".
We sense a strong inclination towards justifying the position of SP and present organisational set up and the position of Extended Ministries too.
Instead of addressing the issues impartially and looking squarely at the shortcomings and faults they are merely building on the present structure/ foundation and doing a patchwork on the present organisational structure. So if the foundation is shaky and unstable, the whole structure will collapse in due time.
As long at the SP is involved there will still be cover ups and possible abuse of position and powers.
Even in the case of the cheque signatories for the bank accounts it was revealed that "SP may be a signatory for the bank accounts." So what does that mean... it is still a reflection of the present financial provisions.
That is just one example what about other provisions? It will be just a form of massaging or window dressing of the present organisational set-up.
We need a real, honest and truthful review and change of the Constitution not just dressing down act.
Besides after so many months where is the Constitution Review Committee (CRC)? Why the long delay? What have they done? Most likely it will be another show as there are also Deacons involved and what about the other members? Are they independent of the pastors and BOD? Or are they likely to sing the same tune again?
CC members have come a long way. It is very encouraging to see the "new kids in the block" coming out to speak against the irregularities and abuses that have been revealed during the last year.
Surely we are not meant to be blind, deaf or dumb sheep. We have to be informed, discerning and wise sheep amidst a very hostile and harsh environment.
We thank our Heavenly Father that He is our loving and caring Shepherd, who will gather all His hurting sheep in His arms and heal them from all the wounds.
OUR GOD IS A GOOD AND LOVING GOD!
Thankyou very much for your clarification ... much appreciated. My posting on the Finance Governance Task Force & the Saturday Workshop including some thoughts on the Constitution Review Committee is as below.
_____________________________
I am posting this here & at Calvary Unity ...
I was at the Finance Governance Task Force Workshop on Saturday and came away feeling good/satisfied because of the following:
o The Task Force have evidently given a lot of time, thought and consideration of what need to be done/changed going forward for better transparency, accountability and good governance in the area of finance within the church ... the things that they have completed, presently in the midst of doing and areas they would like to look into ... I cannot but say "Well Done! I am happy and proud of all the Task Force members". Notwithstanding that there were some who still questioned their independence, the evidence of what they have done, doing and seek to do demonstrate to me so clearly that they are indeed quite independent! Their various proposals and especially those with regard to the Extended Ministries must be embraced and supported by all. Once again, Kudos to the Finance Governance Task Force!
o I would also like to applaud and commend the way the Task Force has gone about carrying their tasks and responsibilities. They have shown themselves to be transparent, open to suggestions & ideas and took upon themselves to keep the members updated of the progress (through updates on the church's website & this workshop) ... this is GREAT! The workshop itself demonstrates that the Task Force wants the church (not only members but also those who are concerned and who worhsip with us regularly - this itself speaks of the inclusive approach of the Task Force) to be involved in shaping the way going forward. The promise to have additional "workshops" and to keep the church updated of their progress is much appreciated and I look forward to these and I hope more of us will attend these future workshops.
o The workshop provided the platform for all to come and give their views and feedback. Although quite a few of the contributors veered from the main objective at hand, sufficient time and opportunity were given. It was not "you can only ask questions but not give comments OR you can only ask 2 questions at most OR you have only 3 minutes to speak, etc...". Anyway to be fair I personally think that during the AGM or EGM which I deemed as more official meetings, some parameters of engagement (by members) must be laid out including some of the items I mentioned earlier - this is expected in view of the occasion and time constraint. But a workshop like what we had provides a more informal setting and allow for a freer exchange of views and dialogue. I personally would support more of these - engagement and not separation is the way forward.
I once again want to say "Thank You" to the Task Force and say how much I do appreciate their work and sacrifice. They have my fullest support.
However I cannot help but once again say how disappointed I am with the Constitution Review Committee. Like I mentioned in one of my earlier post, besides some of the amendments which the Finance Governance Task Force is proposing to change (in line with some of the Task Force's recommendation) I certainly hope that the Constitution Review Committee will NOT be submitting any other proposed changes in the coming AGM since how can they really think that members will be open to their proposals when the process they have taken (assuming that they intend to make some proposals) is NEITHER TRANSPARENT OR INCLUSIVE. And if members are indeed "unhappy" or react negative, they (Constitution Review Committee) have only themselves to blame.
I would like to conclude by asking and encouraging the Constitution Review Committee to adopt the approach and ways of the Finance Governance Task Force - otherwise what they (Constitution Review Committee) do (other than the amendments requested by the Finance Governance Task Force) will NOT build up and enhance unity but may achieve the opposite. And I sincerely hope that the Constitution Review Committee will do the right thing so that they will be postively remembered as contributing to the unity and health of the church and not the other way round.
God Bless!
PASTOR – CEO OR SERVANT LEADERSHIP
The church belongs to Christ.
Christ is the Chief Shepherd and not any Pastors.
Christ MUST be the number ONE in any church.
True Pastors are not LORDS.
They function as SERVANTS of Christ.
Christ is the Head of the Church and the Savior of the Body.
It is His position to say what is going to happen, how, and with whom.
He is almighty and He exercises power.
The Lord has NEVER delegated this chief shepherd power to anybody.
There can only be one Boss who has that power.
Leaders who fill their hearts with thoughts of gaining power attempt to do exactly what the devil did: usurp the place of the divine.
All Christian leaders are called to fill the functional roles spelled out in Scripture.
Submission is to be given to the LORD and His WORD.
If submission is implemented in Christian circles, it should be in terms of submitting to ONE ANOTHER mutually, but NEVER in terms of "AUTHORITY OF LEADERSHIP."
Pastors are not CEOs, no matter how they attempt to make their setting appear as such.
Pastors are SERVANTS of God’s children.
The function model of leadership will perform those duties that Christ prescribed for the blessing of His people.
CHRIST LEADERSHIP MODEL
The model for Christian leadership is not that of the CEO - IT IS THE SUFFERING SERVANT, JESUS CHRIST
The power model leads to the attempt to bring a CEO style to Christian leadership; these leaders are really telling the LORD TO MOVE ASIDE and to let the more capable leader handle the situation.
This thinking says in practice that CHRIST IS AN INCAPABLE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.
The implementation of the CEO/PASTOR in the place of THE SERVANT PASTOR violates biblical teaching.
According to the teachings of the New Testament, the old covenant priesthood has been discarded, and in its place is the priesthood of ALL believers - a priesthood that functions RELATIONALLY rather than HIERARCHICALLY.
PASTOR AS A BEING A HUMBLE SERVANT
Lawerence Richards notes that the key and critical concept underlying Christian leadership and ministry as “ONE OF SERVICE AND SUPPORT OF OTHERS”
Peter instructed the presbuteros of his day regarding the nature of their work, reminding them of the perimeters set by the Lord Himself.
"Neither as being LORDS OVER (katakurieuo) God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock." (1Peter 5:3)
The Greek word katakurieuo translated lords over in the above passage is a compound verb consisting of kata, down, and Kurieuo, to exercise lordship.
Katakurieuo describes how a lord typically relates to a minion. He relates down (kata) because he is thought to be above or over.
It is certain that Peter was remembering the words of Christ, who said "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles LORD IT OVER (katakurieuo) them … It shall NOT be so among you…"
Jesus FORBIDS His followers to lord-down upon each other.
Instead, he reminds us that he who would be great must be a servant and whoever would be first must be a slave, even as the Son of man came NOT to be served but TO SERVE, and to give his life as a ransom for many.
Here Jesus is contrasting the idea of Gentile ruling with serving, the idea of dominion and authority over others is contrasted by His own example.
He did not come to demand service, as a king, but to serve. The example of Christ cries no! A thousand times no!
"IT SHALL NOT BE SO AMONG YOU!" (See Matthew 20:25-28)
In his commentary on 1 Peter 5:3, William Macdonald wrote,
"Elders should be EXAMPLES, not dictators.
They should be walking out in FRONT of the flock, NOT driving them from behind.
They should NOT treat the flock as if it belonged to them. They belong to CHRIST
This strikes at the very heart of AUTHORITARIANISM!
Many of the abuses in Christendom would be eliminated by simply obeying the three instructions in verses 2, 3.
The FIRST would abolish all reluctance.
The SECOND would spell the end of commercialism.
The THIRD would be the death of officialism in the church.
The first century presbuterion were the elderly who followed in Christ's example of SERVANTHOOD and were recognized (See Philippians 3:17).
In this UP-SIDE-DOWN KINGDOM, there is no thought of ruling over another; no thought of promotion, for if the King came as a servant, what then are we to do?
The true church is RELATIONAL, NOT INSTITUTIONAL.
JESUS SET THE EXAMPLE
In John 13: 3-17, John wrote “Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God, and was going back to God,rose from supper, and laid aside His garment; and taking a towel girded Himself about.
THEN HE POURED WATER INTO THE BASIN AND BEGAN TO WASH THE DISCIPLES’ FEET AND WIPE THEM WITH THE TOWEL AND WHICH HE WAS GIRDED
Then He said, "Do you know what I have done to you?" They were speechless.
Never before had they seen a KING WASH HIS SERVANT’S FEET.
They saw with their eyes what we can only imagine, "GOD WITH US," WASHING HUMAN FEET.
The model of leadership in the ekklesia is not the CEO but the household SLAVE.
Jesus said, " FOR I HAVE GIVEN YOU AN EXAMPLE, THAT YE ALSO SHOULD DO AS I HAVE DONE TO YOU" (John 13: 15)
This model from heaven, like oil, will not mix with the waters of many of the current modern day church leadership
HIS SERVANTHOOD is the new standard of greatness in the kingdom of God.
Today, many churches do NOT look anything like the serving messiah.
It has traded the servant’s towel, for three-piece designer suit and is above the washing of feet, as kneeling has become so far beneath the priestly and kingly status of its clergy.
Those who posture themselves to rule have forgotten something very important, THE MIND OF CHRIST.
Christ, who was equal to God, did not cling to His prerogatives as the Son of God.
On the contrary, he emptied himself, and took upon himself the slave’s apron.
In Phil 2: 6-8, Paul wrote “ although He existed in the form of God, He did not regard equality with God a thing to be a thing to be grasped after, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a BONDSERVANT and was made in the likeness of men.
When the power (Ginomai) of example is gone, all you have left is the TYRANNY OF DEMANDED CONFORMITY.
Only God fully appreciates how far we have fallen from the divine standard.
PASTOR AS A SHEPHERD
As shepherds they are to tend the flock of God
This is what the first century elderly modeled. This is what they handed down.
They were examples, not of some legal standard of perfection as modeled by a lofty priesthood.
He contrasted the servant leadership that He modeled, with that of the Scribes and Pharisees, comparing the heart motivation and outworking of each.
"The thief (the Scribes and the Pharisees of chapter nine) does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." (John:10:10)
Jesus is making a comparison here.
Thieves and robbers come to steal and take life.
He came to give life.
Here we see the glaring difference between the Pharisee/clergy and Jesus.
Hirelings unlike the Shepherd do NOT care for the sheep. (John:10:13.)
THE FIVE FOLD MINISTRY WITHIN THE CHURCH
Lastly, I would encourage you to understand more about the five-fold ministry leadership model of that was instituted by Christ in the building of his church.
Frost and Hirsch say that all traditional churches have a hierarchical leadership system, though some are more overtly hierarchical than others.
They argue that this is neither Biblical nor efficient, and the Church needs to adopt the 'APEPT' system of leadership taken from Ephesians 4 (Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists and Pastor Teachers).
EPH 4:11 - and he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
This plurality of leadership based on spiritual gifting meets all of the needs of the Church, whereas a traditional hierarchical model often leaves gaping holes.
However, if Will prefers an AOG author on this subject then I would recommend to him or her the following book “Understanding 5Fold Ministry” by Dr. Stefan Sos
THE SCRIPTURES SAY THAT WHEN HE APPEARS, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, FOR WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS (2 Corinthians 3:18).
The definition of all the positions in the Church 'structure' are so well articulated by David in his commentary above.
It is hope all Assoc Pastors, Dept heads, BOD and of course, SP himself, can come to terms with the TRUTH of the matter.
If one look at their Behaviour & Attitude, they consider themselves as 'Special' and worst the latter see himself as VVIP, which means always expecting & demanding to be treated high above everyone within and without.
SP's' + family--their TALK, WALK, ACTS & LIFESTYLE, underscore their self-loving, self-centred hearts.
SERVANTHOOD? obviously does not apply to the PG's family--far be from it zillion miles.
Let's hope with the "intro" given here by David, on SERVANTHOOD, they will study the Bible ACCURATELY, and be a true follower of Christ.
I was amazed to find this scripture verse describing PG, PG1 & their cohorts in minutest detail:
"fear ye not Me, saith the Lord?...For among my people are found wicked men: they lay wait, as he that setteth snares; they set a trap, they catch men. As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. They are waxen fat, they shine: yea, they overpass the deeds of the wicked...." (Jeremiah 5:22-28)
We don't understand why our pastors preach one thing but do something else. They preach about stewardship and submission to God but they themselves do not practise it.
Why do PG and family crave for moneys and set aside church moneys for their own personal ministries by virtue of their positions of authority and power?
Why do pastors and BOD justify these acts of oppression? Where is servanthood and obedience to God?
Even the outside world do not condone such acts but here in CC the leaders condone such misdeeds.
What kind of testimony do we see from our pastors and BOD in CC?
Why is servanthood and submission to God not being displayed by pastors and BOD in CC?
The HABIT of a GOOD CONSCIENCE
"A conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."
Acts 24:16
God's commands are given to the life of His Son in us, consequently to the human nature in which His Son has been formed, His commands are difficult, but immediately we obey they become divinely easy.
Conscience is that faculty in me which attaches itself to the highest that I know, and tells me what the highest I know demands that I do.
It is the eye of the soul which looks out either towards God or towards what it regards as the highest, and therefore conscience records differently in different people.
If I am in the habit of steadily facing myself with God, my conscience will always introduce God's perfect law and indicate what I should do.
The point is, will I obey?
I have to make an effort to keep my conscience so sensitive that I walk without offence.
I should be living in such perfect sympathy with God's Son, that in every circumstance the spirit of my mind is renewed, and I "make out" at once "what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."
God always educates us down to the scruple.
Is my ear so keen to hear the tiniest whisper of the Spirit that I know what I should do?
"Grieve not the Holy Spirit."
He does not come with a voice like thunder;
His voice is so gentle that it is easy to ignore it.
The one thing that keeps the conscience sensitive to Him is the continual habit of being open to God on the inside.
When there is any debate,quit.
"Why shouldn't I do this?"
You are on the wrong track.
There is no debate possible when conscience speaks.
At your peril, you allow one thing to obscure your inner communion with God.
Drop it, whatever it is, and see that you keep your inner vision clear.
Extract from www.myutmost.org
Oswald Chambers
I just read the alternative blog's recent post and I am annoyed that they think SP should have so much authority just because AG says so.
Do we have to follow what AG says? Shouldn't we be more concerned with following what the bible says about accountability and truth?
Dear Calvarites, why is the church so quiet about the pending AGM? For the first time, they are silent about the actual date at this late stage. There was no mention about the coming AGM, the selection of the nominating committe or the internal auditors but all of the sudden you read about those who have been nominated in the Calvary News. Even the political parties dont do such a thing. Why so secretive? We are a church! Yet we behave in such a manner. What has become of Calvary Church? Please come out open and transparent to the church members. The church does not belong to any one person or family. It is not a business enterprise.
Has anyone written to the Church Secretary and ask when is the AGM going to be held?
The Church Secretary has to respond right?
We have to be BOLD and DIRECT to the POINT.
LET US DO THAT!
To Michael March 18 2009 3:52pm
Please do not be annoyed and believe that AOG endorses CEO/Pastor leadership and the destiny of the local church is in the hand on just one person.
What you read from the document “Deacons, Elders and Pastors - A Special Commentary” is only one piece of a puzzle.
Let me give you another piece of that puzzle and please do let me know if you see a clearer picture after this (though not a complete picture.)
The day-to-day execution statement of a local church has to be built on a higher biblical foundation.
When the document was created it is assumed that the required foundation has been firmly in place.
I will use a document from the same AOG source as that required foundation to ensure that there are NO contradictions due to different denominational beliefs.
I will use the following document to highlight to you that NO one in the church has absolute authority except the CHIEF SHEPHERD himself as we are all mortal and fallible.
“THEOLOGY OF MINISTRY – OFFICIAL STATEMENT BY THE GENERAL PRESBYTERY OF AOG, 1993”
Please read this AOG document at http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/index.cfm and infer for yourself whether the conclusion drawn by CK is correct.
In this exercise, I am neither agreeing nor disagreeing with the content of the above statement.
I am merely a messenger, compiling a summary or extracts of what have been stated in that AOG document that are pertinent to your concerns
SUMMARY OF THE AOG ministry STATEMENT:
1. Ministry is what a church does and or suppose to do
2. Ministry or “diakonia” is synonymous with humble service that one RENDERS to another.
It is often the work of a SERVANT who waits on tables
JESUS is the MODEL OF OUR MINISTRY
A humble SERVANT
A SHEPERD – feeding, watering, and if required to LAY DOWN HIS/HER Life to nurture and PROTECT THE FLOCK
3. The church is an EXTENSION OF CHRIST MINISTRY
4. Ministry belongs to the ENTIRE Church – i.e. EVERY SINGLE MEMBER OF THE BODY OF CHRIST
5. MINISTERIAL LEADERSHIP
- Five Fold Ministry functions are explained in that statement. I will highlight a little about the role of the PASTOR, OVERSEER AND ELDER.
The term “Pastor” found only in Eph4:11 in English translations is the Greek “poimen” and means SHEPHERD.
Eph 4:11
And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
The shepherding role (verb poimaino) is often attributed to MINISTERS (Acts 20:28, 1Peter 5:2), following the MODEL OF CHRIST Himself. (John 10:14, Heb 13:20, 1Peter 5:4)
MINISTER
Act 20:28
Take heed unto yourselves, and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit hath made you bishops, to FEED THE CHURCH OF THE LORD which he PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD.
1Pet 5:2
TEND the flock of God which is among you, exercising the oversight, not of constraint, but willingly, according to the will of God; nor yet for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
MODEL OF CHRIST
Joh 13:13
Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for SO I AM.
Joh 13:14
If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
Joh 13:15
For I have given you an EXAMPLE, THAT YE ALSO SHOULD DO AS I HAVE DONE TO YOU.
Joh 13:16
Verily, verily, I say unto you, a SERVANT is NOT greater than HIS LORD; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him.
John 10:14
I am the GOOD SHEPHERD; and I know mine own, and mine own know me,
John 10:15
even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I LAY DOWN MY LIFE FOR THE SHEEP.
Heb 13:20
Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the GREAT SHEPHERD of the sheep
with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
1Pe 5:3
neither as LORDING it over the charge allotted to you, but making yourselves ENSAMPLES to the flock.
1Pe 5:4
And when the CHIEF SHEPHERD shall be manifested, ye shall receive the crown of glory that fadeth not away.
BIBILICAL TERMS for MINISTRY
1. “Diakonos” means MINISTER, SERVANT OR DEACONS
2. The ministry concept has to do with SERVICE rendered for public good
3. The “HYPERETES” is a FREE person WILLING to ACCEPT a SUBORDINANT role to serve.
The KEY THOUGHT here is that of WILLING SUBORDINATION.
4. “Oikodomeo” literally means “to build a house” and is usually used metaphorically in the New Covenant in the sense of “up building” and “Edification”
MICHAEL,
Please do go to the AOG webpage and read the entire statement to really appreciate the subject matter.
Do you think that the AOG Deacons, Elders and Pastors statement was created on the foundation of a SERVANT Pastor or that of a CEO/Pastor ?
March 19, 2009 6:12 PM
No point. Everything in CC is decided by SP. Do you honestly think the FGTF can have the workshop without his blessing or permission. Read the church constitution. Every meeting or function cannot be held in church without his knowledge or 'permission'. But in actual fact it is quite interesting and humorous to think that the TF had planned for the workshop without his knowledge or permission. Any meeting or function in church can be viewed in his office, so there is no need to be present to see or know what is happening. That is why we have the satellite transmission. Think about it.
Have a look at the proposed organizational chart by the FGTF and you will see that the whole exercise is meaningless. You will see that SP is still the overall head. Even the BOD is at the same level as him but at the side. In all organization, the Board of Directors is above the MD or CEO. But of course, someone will say that we are not of the world. We dont have to follow the world. Well, the world put their money in the banks. Maybe we should not follow the world and put our money under our pillow. Another thing is that the Elders are all by themselves in the sea. No link to anyone. Except you can see that they are placed slightly below SP. So if SP is still in charge of all the finance, then we are at status quo. The problem will be perpetually be there whoever the SP is. Sigh. . . .
Hi David,
Thank you for your kind explanation. After reading the article on CK did go to the other paper there.
You are suggesting that we should follow the principle of the "Theology of ministry" article. But if you read both articles isn't it true that the other paper also works. Its only explaining the role of the deacons and its saying that that the pastor is the boss. I guess the boss should follow the 'Theology of Ministry' but he still is the boss right?
I'm not comfortable with this. Personally I like it where the people have more authority.
What happens if we decide to break from AG? Can't we do that? There are so many independent churches like SIB and FGA where they are not with a denomination.
I say we should bring the power back to the people.
Dear David,
You may have your point that first century church organisation and forwards was not lead by one pastor. Your point only goes as far back 1st century which is where the Bible stops its account.
So how do you explain that God chose Moses (one man) to lead the Israelites from slavery, King David (one man) to lead the nation, Mary (one woman) to bring forth the Saviour and Jesus (one man) to save the world?
I think that's what the AG article means by throughout history, God chose a man to lead. God uses the one-man method. He didn't appoint committees or a hierarchy of bishops and elders and what-not to lead His people.
However God certainly didn't nullify the idea of "many hands make the work load light". He allowed Moses through his father-in-law to appoint leaders to assist him in answering people's problems. He led Nehemiah to use groups of people to attend to various parts of the wall he was rebuilding. The list goes on...
So you cannot say that one pastor or using deacons or elders is the right or wrong way. They were all used in the Bible. The Bible never outlined a right or wrong way because the term "church" as we know today does not exist in the Bible.
Remember that the Bible is God's revealed word to us. If God wanted to tell us how to run churches and fellowships, He would have revealed it to us through the Bible. Because there is none, we cannot say which is the right or wrong way. Christianity is always evolving through the ages.
---
I'm posting this on both blogs because I know this probably won't go through on CT.
No where in our constitution spells out that SP is the CEO. This concept was only introduced from Hong Meng's slides at KBU meeting. We have all been misled and have greatly misunderstood the role of the SP.
Maybe thats why AG doesn't want to get involved ... They are all in on this scandal ...
WHAT DO the 'CEO-pastor' and SAP ( his deputy & spouse) OF CALVARY CHURCH DO TO EARN *RM25,000 and *RM15,000 /per month respectively?
*As speculated (interesting though, so far all speculations known have found to be true)
For a start their 'JOB' functions are rather obvious ( not found in any appointment letter,since already all spelt out in the Church Constitution!)
And Their "DUTIES" are as follows:
- the Sunday Preaching (not Teaching, mind you);
( in the case of SAP used to be only on Mother's day,
but only in recent years 6x more, perhaps)
- the' compulsory' morning devotion with staff;
- the once in a blue moon 'Open Bible Study';
( usually with own agenda);
- 'for show' attendance in Prayer meeting, and in the case
of SAP 'Tue Ladies' ( which often use 'Evangelist' Video
and others for sharing )
- Overseas Networking (Big time Conferences/Meetings,
etc-- anything but genuine missions work)
- Chair meetings &
Sign Cheques, too, of course.
In the evenings ( off duty/after work, off by 5pm), relax in their Bungalow in Bangsar. ( By the way, it was said, it's a 'fortress' of sort, CCTV and what have you--members UNWELCOME)
WHERE ARE the 'CEO-pastor' and SAP ( his deputy& spouse)TO BE FOUND?
MOST FREQUENT PLACES VISITED or SEEN by OTHERS:
- Exclusive F&B outlets ( guests of the 'ELITE' Members)
- Attending 'selective' Who's Who private functions/events
- Shopping Malls
- Beauty Salons ( from Head-to-toe)
- GYM club
- Money Changers
- Airports
- Leisure Holidays (international destinations, Business Class/ Luxury Hotels-5 Star all the way)
What a PAMPERED, COVETOUS WORDLY Life!
What a Contrast with SERVANTHOOD of JESUS CHRIST.
Hi there!
It is the principle of protecting like minded people who are also in the same boat.
It appears unlikely that AG will do anything. Just that concerned members have to console ourselves to know that we have exhausted all Christian avenues...
In the end having done all we have to do, we still have to ask and wait upon God to intervene in His time and His way.
The assurance is that no matter how men try to hide or exercise protectionism, GOD can overrule and execute His plan....
GOD will cleanse and renew His Church to ensure she will be the pure and beautiful Bride GOD has intended her to be, and that GOD shall preserve her for the day when Christ comes again!
OUR GOD REIGNS!
Hi all, yes I've been absent for some time due to my child's illness and had to spend a week in the hospital. Perhaps it is divine punishment for questioning TTG? OK, unnecessary pun.
Those wondering why I did not take up the offer to view the evidence, firstly, I was not in church or good health at that time anyhow. Secondly, having thought about it, I am not sure if I am ready for this. I do not think that looking at some receipts alone will change my mind too soon. It may however justify some of the questions which are probably fair.
Despite the torrent of abuse in this site, I think many will agree that Senior Pastor has done much for the Christian community at large, and has been a vessel for God's work in Malaysia - all glory to God.
I still think there is avenue for this discourse and it needs to be done with respect. Do not expect the AG Council to throw all the good work out of the table on the account of one protest. If TTG is determined to promote change and transparency, it also needs to address the need for reconciliation and disassociate itself from some of the hate manifest in the comments sections.
By presenting your other cheek, you allow yourselves to take the higher ground and underlining the fact that Godly people are behind this.
I still stand by my natural stance against this blog... it serves to edify no one, not the least non-Calverites and young believers. Without grace, there is little difference with a mob.
Castigate me for all it's worth, I do not mind. I have been called worse... like WSL...
To R.Peter who sees fit extend the accusation, try not to cut off your nose to smite your face. The AG has been a bible believing, God fearing church organization for far too long for you to write it off like that.
And for Michael who claim that we should bring the power back to the people, I would rather relinquish it all back to God. This is not a political play of Makkal Sakti proportions that we see playing out in our country. This is God's church and if our leaders have erred inn any way, then let us go back to God in prayer for his intervention and grace.
Greetings from Gold Coast, Kangaroo-Land!
My apologies for this late response to “Another Keh Poh” (comment on 15 March) and all those who wanted to know what actually happened last Sunday at the DH CRC especially with Pas Peter. News of Pas Peter’s presence at the CRC evoked much speculations which circulated among members at a speed much faster than Streamyx. He was speculated to be either spying on us or wanted to see our evidence on behalf of SP or WSL/Charles or doing his job as the new bouncer. Someone even suggested that he might be WSL (Why So Long). For those who have not read the entire blog, WSL is an anonymous character who has not met up with me even after a few invitations.
I won’t speculate on the above but Pas Peter certainly wasn’t there to see the evidence but he was there with Bro Robert S. to tell me to stop what I was doing, that is, showing the documents and evidence to members. He said that members come to church to worship and that I shouldn’t disrupt the purpose of their coming to church. Although I told him that I wasn’t doing it during service or doing it in the sanctuary and as such, I don’t see how it can disrupt the worship, he was adamant that I shouldn’t do this within church premises. When I pressed him later whether I could do it outside the church premises, he kept mum. Of course, I reminded him that SP had said at the last AGM that we shouldn’t hold any meetings outside and I am just abiding by what SP has said and doing this within the church premises.
In other words, he is saying that I can’t show the documents and evidence inside or outside the church. Don’t reveal the truth to members, that seems to be the management style of our leadership, that’s our Calvary style of transparency. The church-endorsed alternate blog (CU or CK) has previously commented that our God is not a transparent God. I hope our church does not subscribe to this blasphemous theology although this action of Pas Peter may give rise to such belief. Yes, it may seem unfair to make such a statement but how else can one make out of this.
Pas Peter did at one point, suggest that I give whatever evidence I have, to the BOD. I must admit that I was dumb-founded by this absurd (sorry, Pas Peter!) suggestion. How could I give the evidence to the BOD when the BOD is equally at fault for the crisis our church is in today. Also at least one of them has benefitted a little from the missions funds.
As a matter of fact, one of the evidence has been given to the BOD almost a year ago but they have not investigated further on it.
Anyway, Dr Lum and I did show a few of the letters between Dr Lum and the BOD to Pas Peter. Unfortunately, he excused himself before we could show him the 3 pieces of documentary evidence. Only 5 members came to view the documents last Sunday.
On the poor response to this opportunity to view the documents, someone made a noteworthy observation. She said that if WSL or Charles (the anonymous characters of the alternate blogs) offer such a document, many Calvarites will turn up. But because this is offered by the TTG group who are known to most Calvarites, their word is sufficient, they do not need to see to believe.
Josh, sorry,do not agree with yr opinions on this. You keep asking the sheep to turn the other cheek but perhaps you should go sit down and talk to Senior Pastor and his cronies and ask them why they are not turning the other cheek but instead, asking ppl to go jump into the lake, sacking people from ministries and membership etc etc.
As long as Senior pastor does not admit that he is wrong, he will keep on behaving arrogantly and extinguishing all who dare to question him.
Thank you ALERT SHEEP for helping us understand the 'role and duties' of the SP and SAP of Calvary Church.
From what we observe they are not servants of God but rather they elevated themselves to be the royal family of Calvary Church!
No wonder outsiders think that Calvary Church is loaded and the wealthiest church in Malaysia. No wonder the SP and SAP think that they deserve to be treated like royalty by members.
No wonder BOD is just a tool in the SP's hands to do as he wishes...BOD is just carrying out the wishes and commands of CEO of CC.
BOD is too weak and ineffective. They are utterly blinded and incapable of standing up for truth, justice and righteousness. They would rather sacrifice one of them (Dr Lum) and put blame on him for telling the truth.
A sham inquiry was set up by BOD to remove him as member of CC. The motive is to shut him up and to set the precedent for further actions against any other member who would speak up.
How can pastors and BOD of CC be trusted? No way. But we know that GOD knows the hearts of all men. GOD will not be silent when wrongs are taking place right in the church.
May God have mercy on CC and intervene to bring about a just and quick termination of all the wrongs that are continually being weaved and condoned by the leadership.
Unfortunately, the news of the wrongs is spreading faster and faster, and further intensifying since the time it first became known to some concerned members.
Pastors and BOD are making a mockery of themselves ....so how long are they still going to hide and pretend to members and all others?
To "SP is not CEO said (March 19, 2009 8:53 PM).."
CORRECTION.
Obviously you didn't read the Constitution!
Please refer to RULE X1 :OFFICE BEARERS 1b ii) Pg14
It's all in BLACK & WHITE.
You are the one who has either been misled, or trying to mislead others. The honourable thing to do is make an apology to Hong Min in this blog, and any other blog where you may have posted this FALSE accusation.
A Suggestion to All Members:
Please obtain a copy of the Constitution from the church office, and prove to yourself how autocratic the Position of CEO-sr. pastor & the BOD, and how the all powerful 'system' operates.
Hope you will not be SHOCKED by what had been 'enshrined' inside. But shocked enough to want to take the stand to press for TTG in the church. AGM is the only avenue we all have to do the right thing.
In response to "SP is not CEO":
Rule XI(1)(b)reads as follows:
"The Senior Pastor shall during his term of office:-
(ii) be considered the Chief Executive of the Church on all matters both spiritual and practical and shall carry out the decisions of the Board of Deacons in accordance with the objects of the Church."
Please refer to my paper, "The Need for Constitutional Amendments", available as an earlier post, for an appreciation of the powers and authority of the senior pastor and the board of deacons of Calvary Church.
hong meng
To: "SP is not CEO"
Sorry to say you have not read the provisions in the Constitution properly.
The words are very clear and the intentions are obvious too. No one is trying to mislead anyone.
Liza and Hong Meng have clarified the matter so if you are a fair and responsible person please read the entire Constitution and HM's posting on why the present Church Constitution has to be reviewed and changed and you will know for sure the true state of affairs.
It is not proper to create doubts and calling forth names here when your facts and assertions are incorrect.
Not only does the constitution give SP veto power for everything and anything under the roof of the church, but SP has also BEEN acting like a CEO instead of like a Shepherd. He is arrogant, he doesn't love the sheep and instead ask them to go jump into the lake, he is not godly nor does he have any compassion...he is definitely more like a CEO than a Senior Pastor.Actually,come to think of it, even secular CEOs have more compassion and love than PG does!
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