Friday, September 5, 2008

8th Update to CC Members (13.09.08)

Dear Concerned Calvarites,

Many concerned members were getting really concerned that the teh tarik group has been very quiet since the recent EGM. Well, some of us have been busy travelling while others have been busy with their personal ministries, touching lives in Kingdom of God and some others busy penning letters to the deacons and fellow members and developing an internet blog for Concerned Calvarites, which we will share with you later. No, be assured that we have not abandoned our cause or left you faithful ones out there in the lurch.

To recap, the recent EGM was the best teh tarik session we have had todate and the best part of it was that it was organized by the church. Truly, great is our God! Although the Board of Deacons, in blatant disregard of our Church Constitution, rejected all our seven proposed resolutions, it was a night of victory for all the concerned members of the church. All who came, witnessed for themselves, the shameful manner in the way the deacons conducted the meeting.

Despite all their earlier assurances that everyone will be given an opportunity to share their views and despite a written letter to that effect addressed to the one of us from the deacons, they failed to keep their promises. Our deacons have clearly demonstrated that they (save for one or two) are not people who honour their word.

We were also totally shocked when one of the deacons made a remark (certainly not a question) “Who are the teh tarik members?” when answering a question on whether they will include the teh tarik members in the proposed Constitutional Review committee. That deacon has been involved in active dialogues with us representing some of the teh tarik members, received emails from us and read our updates and yet, he can, in the presence of 800 members and God, make the above remark. We hope that he will do the right thing and that is, put in his resignation immediately. Let us see whether he is man enough to do so.

To be fair, we must say that Bro Edward did try his utmost best to explain and answer most of the questions posed and Dr Guynes did his best to be fair, considering the limitations imposed on him by the deacons and Senior Pastor. Unknown to many in the sanctuary that night, SP was not just sitting there quietly. Many who were sitting in front saw him making hand signals to Dr Guynes a few times to cut short or end the meeting whenever he was uncomfortable with the questions. Thank God that Dr Guynes insisted on all questions being answered.

There were fears that the EGM will cause a split in the church but from the responses and feedback received, the contrary has happened. Many who were fence sitters previously and those who were unaware of the crisis situation in our church have now become sympathetic to our cause. Quite a number have openly declared that they will stop giving their tithes and offerings to the church. Some made a decision to leave Calvary that night while some others indicated that if SP does not leave soon, they will move to another church. Our plea to these members is “Please do not leave”. Calvary Church is our Father’s house, it is not SP’s house. SP was appointed by the members to lead the church. The members are the ones who have the right to ask him to leave, not the other way around.

Of course, many members are uneasy about “touching God’s anointed”. We have been bombarded many times with this verse from the pulpit. But let us not forget that when David said this in relation to King Saul, he was referring to physical ‘touching” that is physically harming King Saul. This has often times been preached out of context. Also, we have to remember that the keyword is “anointed”. Just as we do not subscribe to the philosophy of “once saved, always saved”, in the like manner, we should not believe in “once anointed, always anointed”. Therefore, no one can claim to be permanently anointed by God. If we do not walk right with God, His anointing upon us can depart. This can be clearly seen in the life of King Saul in the Old Testament.

So what is our next move? We have several options in mind but at this moment, we are seeking directions from the Lord. Please do pray for us and the church. For the time being, we shall continue to be the “thorn in the flesh”. We know that several members are planning certain courses of action. We will not stand in the way of anyone. Let each one abide in the Lord and do as the Spirit leads. It is, after all, His church and His battle. We are merely the vessels.

Finally, we wish to announce that we have set up 2 blogs namely:

Calvary Today at http://calvarytoday.blogspot.com/

All future updates will no longer be sent by email but will be posted on this blog. You are welcome to post your comments or give your feedback on the matters that are raised or discussed on the blog.


Berita Calvary at http://beritacalvary.blogspot.com/

On this blog, we will post articles written by third parties or obtained from online resources that we hope, will serve to encourage, edify or strengthen the faith and lives of our members in their Christian walk. Both blogs are linked, so you can easily switch from one blog to the other.

Before we conclude, we wish to share a testimony. One of our teh tarik members used part of his tithe portion to sponsor a lay preacher to attend a conference in Penang last month. In that trip, he personally led 2 hotel staff to Christ and led a team to do street evangelism, resulting in another 23 souls being saved. For a mere RM750 sponsorship, 25 souls were added to the Kingdom of God. Praise the Lord! Imagine what RM200 million can do, if it is put in the hands of the many lay preachers, pastors and foot soldiers out there in the mission field!


God Bless


KC & some Teh Tarik members

8 comments:

The Trampled Rose said...

Dear KC and Teh Tarik Members,

Thank you for your update. With no disrespect to what you have written, I wish to comment on 2 aspects in your update.

1) Appointment of SP by members.

You mentioned about David and Saul in relation to "touching God's anointed and brought it to the present about SP being appointed by the people". May I also add that the Bible also mentions that all authority is placed there by God. How should we reconcile both truths.

In view that it is God who is the author of His Word, between both truths - I believe that the primary truth is that God is the authority over all and He being One of Perfect Order ordains all authority. Yet, it is well that we also remember that God uses people as his means to achieve His Will.

In that light, I think that it is safe to conclude that SP is appointed by God even though God's method is via the people. I have been taught that at BCM and I believe that it will be God who will promote or demoted or remove.

So, touching God's anointed is not only in the physical sense alone, it is in the spiritual sense. Today, when we touch someone physically - we don't have to use tangible weapons of war. We kill with the intangible just as well. What am I referring to? We can kill with our use of language - verbal or written. The weapon of the pen or the tongue cuts better and deeper than a sharp knife.

That is why, we all need to continue to be respectful of SP and BOD. In addition, we are told to love one another. Here, LOVE does not mean that we keep quiet, give in and keep mum.

We can stand for the truth but the methods, the words used, tonality, expression etc are just as important as the truth that we stand for.

Please also note that our God is a gracious God and He gives the wrong doer many chances to correct what needs to be corrected. He may use people to give wake-up calls but nothing can convict more than just one wake-up call from God.

This is because God believes in second chances - we see this evident many times in the Bible, particularly in the Book of Ruth. God truly is a very long-suffering and patient God. He believes in us, even when men have lost faith in us or even we ourselves. He truly loves the lost but never the wrongful actions.

Where am I coming from? SP is still God's business and we need to pray that God will speak to him to do what is needed. We need to believe that God will deal with SP and if he is truly "building his own kingdom" - something that we cannot be sure of - then, God will deal with him. In fact, we need to pray for God's mercy on him.

Dean Sherman once said when asked how should one reconcile the dissonance of how ministers who are personally sinning against God, can still have great ministry? Dean Sherman replied that ministry continues because God is ministering to the needs of the people responding and God can use anyone, even a donkey as in the story of Balaam. However, the minister must never confuse the fact, that a great ministry does not mean that he has great standing with God. If a minister is sinning,personally he has no standing with God, that one day, he will be judged accordingly. That is why in the Synoptic Gospels, there were those who claimed that they had done ministry and performed wonders for God - but yet, they were denied entry to Heaven.

So, I believe that we should not touch God's anointed - meaning, we should not call for his resignation. This is not proper nor biblical. We must look at the bigger picture with God in it. We must not be like Sarah in Abraham's story, who was so spiritually myopic, that she tried to help God out, alas with dire consequences.

We can continue to raise the issues for the BOD and SP to take note. And we can pray for God to work His Way - I believe that when God Works - nothing can stand up to His Truth.

b) Leave the Church

I totally agree with your call to disillusioned Calvarites not to leave the church. On the same note, no one should call others to leave the church. Only God can make that call. If we believe that God led us to this church, we need to remain faithful to that call. To be fed spiritually - do you believe that God does not need much to speak to us. No matter how poor the messenger, I believe that when God wants to speak, He will speak. Even from the words of a child, the truth of God can strike hearts of stone. So God can speak anywhere, even right where you are. We only need to look with expectation for His message. If you find thorns and barbs amongst, just pick them out - for nature shows us that that the sweetest fruits are always found on plants with the most thorns and barbs. Durian - the King of Fruits is one good example.

In fact, leaving the church would be considered the easiest way out. It is always easy to retreat from the "battleground" than to stand and confront the "battle". If we actually reflect on the many "battles" in our lives, God does not rescue us by taking us out of the situation, but makes us stand and walk through the situation. The only difference is that He walks with us. That is important to build our character and our faith.

Taking of sides - for SP, for TT Group or sitting on the fence - should not be even be considered at all. No one should be on any side or on any fence. We should all be on the side of God - God of justice, righteousness,peace and love.

Perhaps, this is the right time for the TT Group to seek articles for beritacalvary on God's truths. We should stand up when an action does not pleases God. Yet, we must not "hate" the one who does wrong. God did not judge us this way, so we must do to others but to emulate God.

Finally, my plea to all who blog - please write with love, not with anger, not with the aim to strike out just because the words of another struck a dischord in you. If you do what another did to you, would that not be "an eye for an eye"?

When you write, please write to tackle and address the issues at hand. Write if you must to express your thought, your feeling but do not write to attack any particular person. Remember, at the other end of the words that you say - is a living, breathing human soul for whom Christ did die for. So, like Saul was asked by Jesus, while on the road of Damascus - "Why do you persecute me?" I think you know the answer.

Write with love and one good way is to picture yourself on the receiving end of the words you are saying. Would you want to be on such a receiving end? The yardstick - do not to others what you want not others to do to you.

Write without the need to provoke - "words like - be prepared to be bashed by the TT Group" - are uncalled for because they invite provocation that would otherwise not be there in the first place.

Last but not least, please write remembering the "lambs" in the church. Those who are young in age, heart, soul and mind. Those who have not sufficient maturity to discern what is just expression of frustration and what is the issue.

I am sorry if what I have written offends anyone. The reason I have to write this is because I have read many comments, especially the mud-slinging. As I read and prayed, a deep sadness came over me. It is like one of my pastor friends say - when sheep fight ugly, the lambs end up hurt. So to all who blog here, please remember the "lambs" and the sheep still outside the compound.

God bless all of you.

Diana

Anonymous said...

Dear Diana,

As usual you are so wise and so correct. Fully agree with all you wrote.

Remember Katherine Kuhlman who felt that God led her to break up a marriage and married that man. She was still peforming miracle healings.

As to the point of touching the annointed - asking SP to resign. Before the constitution was changed, there was a provision to have a vote of confidence for the pastor at the AGM. If God wants the pastor to move on God could swing the vote, right? If we use this provision are we touching God's annointed?

The Trampled Rose said...

Dear Lois N,

About your comment on the vote of confidence in the constitution, I would like to share my thoughts.

At this point of time - the immediate issue would be to have the members vote at the next AGM to re-include the vote of confidence for the pastor at each AGM and also to put in place, the many policies and controls so that the BOD or pastor will not have absolute discretionary powers to decide on such matters as approving and transferring large sums of money without tabling it with the members. I believe that many of us in the church do not want another SAGA like this to "rock" the church and God's Kingdom in Malaysia.

Once these policies, procedures and controls are in place, I believe that they will set in motion an extensive change in the manner of how the church operates.

Then, in true Christian spirit and in emulating God - the God of 2nd chances - we need to give SP an opportunity to work within the framework of the new constitution,policies,rules and regulations.

If for whatever reason or reasons, he is unwilling, then the normal response, and I guess, the only solution arising from this unwillingness would be for him to voluntarily resign from his position as SP.

In that way, I do not believe that we are touching God's anointed.

However, as I have said, we cannot ask him to resign - it would not be proper. We can of course, deal with the issues at hand and I am glad that the TT Group are doing just that.

The other reason that I do not support calling for the resignation of a pastor is that we are Christians and we are dealing with a church matters.

In the secular, political and corporate world, it is normative to call for the resignation of a leader when they do something wrong.

We ourselves did not like it when the BOD and SP used legality and financial law to try and justify the transactions from Missions to CIM and CARED.

So, even if they (the leaders) fail to set the example for us - we who can see that and know of a better way - We are then called to be examples for BOD and SP.

Pastor Wirachai Kowae asked me this - when a person has done good before and now commits wrong, does it mean that all the good that he has done before, is wiped out? He taught me not to be so hasty as to judge a person as bad, crooked,etc - just because of the "wrongs" at the present time. Wirachai said that we need to remember how we stand before God when we consider another. By this, I think that he refers to the fact, that many of us stand before God in the same way - without wrongs too and we would be nowhere, if God did not give us another chance.

So,we must give a chance to SP to repent and change (if he is really doing wrong - as this point, we have lots of information and many questions but we have no solid concrete proof of his heart) and do right - just as God gives us the many chances in our lives.

In addition, when I plea with all not to touch God's anointed, I mean with insinuations of name-calling, unproven allegations, etc - I do so because I am spiritually concerned for the person or persons who do/does these things. I am not at all worried about God's anointed - for God protects His own.

However, for those who insinuate without proof, that person will be judged by God. Even if we have proof and information, we must be careful the manner in which we use that information - including our expression of it all.

I hope that sufficiently explains where I am coming from.

God bless

Diana

Anonymous said...

Thanks Diana for your explanation - actually also my thoughts also.

I have been very concerned when remarks are thrown at each other. My stand is always "do not take sides, take God's side" i.e. take the side of God for truth.

Unfortuntely up till now we have not seen SP doing anything except getting his deacons to protect him and speak up for him. It is actually not fair for some of the deacons as they had not been on the Board that far back and may not know all the details.

It is easier said to vote for changes in an AGM or EGM. You should have seen the tight control and carefully prepared agenda.

The Trampled Rose said...

Dear Lois N,

If the EGM was any indication of how tight things were controlled, I can just imagine the AGM.

However, I believe that situations are constantly shifting and that God is working even when we really don't have a clue of what HE is doing.

Right now, we are not directly involved in the SAGA can only pray that God will work swiftly for His Church, the Christian community in Malaysia and around the world.

It is a good time to - "be still and know that He is God" - especially when one is feeling so helpless and lost - as I know many are like us - feeling exasperated and frustrated at the "non-communicato" attitude of SP and the BOD.

God bless
Diana

Unknown said...

Dear Diana,
Your thoughts are very well written. But my questions right now are:
1) Can God's anointing be upon the minister who does not repent and return the MILLIONS ringgit that belong to Calvary Church?
2) If God's anointing has left SP, are we just going to warm the church pews every Sunday?
3) Can you still listen to a 'thief'(SP & SIS) with an open heart when they preach?
Of late I am having some difficulty.And I think the congregation too.Cos hardly anyone say AMEN when they preach

Someone sent me an email with this story......
A young lady from church visited an old lady who was very sick. At the conclusion the young lady said,
"Let me pray for you."
The old lady answered,
"I can do that myself, please wash my dishes."
I believe God uses ordinary people for His appointment.Some to pray, some to do the admin job.
If God wants the change of leadership, we must allow Him to. In fact we should all be praying to God to prepare us for the change.I believe God does have someone in His plan. The question is are we prepare for the change?

Dear Lois N
Yes, God did use Kathleen Kulman to perform His miracles upon thousands. In fact many with cancer were healed.But yet Kathleen Kulman died of cancer.
God did not heal her. Could this be the sin of coveteousness?

No wonder Diana said pray that God have mercy on SP.

Unknown said...

A man who refuses to admit his mistakes can never be successful. But if he confesses and forsakes them, he gets another chance. Proverbs 28:13 (LB)

Anonymous said...

Dear spinochhio,

Since you have posed some pretty serious questions, I think that they are worth an reply from me. Here are my thoughts on your 3 questions.

1) Can God's anointing be upon the minister who does not repent and return the MILLIONS ringgit that belong to Calvary Church?

First of all, please tell me, is God's anointing for the minister or the ministry work that he has to do? Who benefits from the anointing of a servant of God? The servant or the people to whom he ministers?

Please remember that God has a plan for all mankind and HIS is always the BIGGER picture. The anointing is given for His work.

Don't take my word for this. Please look into the lives of the prophets and apostles - was the anointing for them or for God's work?

If you can answer my questions, you have actually answered your own as well. Ok?

Everything that God gives us - blessings, favor and anointing is really not for us but for us to bless others that they may give Glory to God.

Even suffering that is given to us to build character (Paul says this) - if we really look further - is also for ministry - because having experienced a certain type of suffering, we can identify with others and have empathy for another, who may be at their point of life, experiencing similar sufferings.

The hurdle that all of us (your truly included), never mind, if one is a mature or young Christian; lay man or minister; theologically or non-theologically trained - is that we have to truly believe in our hearts, minds and spirits that God is truly Good and that He does all things or allows all things because He and He alone sees the Big Picture.

This is a daily hurdle that we all have to overcome - one that is especially hard to jump over when a situation is silent and nothing seems to happen though we pray so hard or when things look like they are getting worse. Our mind screams for answer and resolution.

I say that it is a daily struggle because the lessons of trust never get any easier - conquer 1 level in 1 area of your life and another is then tested. Simply put - it is called faith.

My conviction is this. If we can really believe with our hearts that God knows what He is doing, then we can be still and know that He is God.

In this SAGA - we who are not directly called to be involved - we can continue to pray for all parties. If unsure of what or how to pray - then, we should pray and groan in the Spirit - for the Spirit of God will pray in the Perfect Will of God. Agreed?

2)If God's anointing has left SP, are we just going to warm the church pews every Sunday?

I think that matter of the anointing has been explained. I believe that the lifestyle of a Christian should be to worship God and hence, going to church is also for God and that says the same for our ministry as well as for all areas of our lives.

We come to church to hear God speak and to fellowship with other believers that we all may be encouraged. So no more issue, right?

3) Can you still listen to a 'thief'(SP & SIS) with an open heart when they preach?

May I ask you a question? When someone speaks to you - layman or preacher and you discern in your heart that it is truth and this truth is verified by Scripture - ultimately, is that person speaking from himself or is it God who speaks to you?

Do you believe that God can speak to you through nature, experience, situations, stories,even a child just as well as He can speak to you via His Spirit and His Word? If you do say yes, I think you have answered your own question.

I emphatize with you if you are struggling because of what you are currently hearing from the pulpit, and because of uncomrtable atmosphere that the SAGA in church has created.

However, please rest in the assurance that God has given you a discerning spirit and common sense.

Do test what you hear and read with the Word of God. Scripture supports scripture but remember that all scripture must always be taken in context. Do seek for greater knowledge - it is worth investing time for this.

Just to share with you - I know that BCM has night classes for those who thirst to understand the Bible more correctly and since it is only once per week for 3 hours, I think that it is really worth making time for this. You don't have to sit for the exams, just take the course for audit. For more information, you can call BCM at 7956 5621 or check out their website.

I really thank God that he let me study at BCM - the knowledge has truly helped me see clearer now and to connect the different truths of God - though - I believe that I still have a long way more to go in learning about God and His Ways.

As for the "Amen" bit - Asians are not very highly responsive vocal people unlike the American or European audience.

You know, dragging a response for an Asian congregation is really difficult, although today at CC, we have learned to respond a little more than the past.

Also remember, when people are silent - it is very likely that they are processing or thinking deeply about the information that they have just heard.

I hope that my reply does help you. May the Lord bless you and keep you safe in His Hand.

Diana