Things are really getting heated up here. We would like to remind all Concerned Members, to be careful of what we say in our Comments. Please do not mention anything that is personal with regards to people who are not involved in this whole Saga. We have intentionally deleted a Comment from this blog which we felt was attacking persons who are really not a part of and should not be dragged into this whole discussion.
Let us all stay focused on the IMPORTANT ISSUES HERE. This comment sums up our thoughts quite simply. Thanks Chic Kee
Chic Kee said...
I am glad SS brought out something I always wanted to say:
“Yes, it is sad that all these mud-slinging by SP supporters, TT supporters and self proclaimed neutral parties are being seen by the whole world. The amazing thing is that when I check around, I found out that neither SP or any pastor or any deacon has approached the TT group to try to stop all this blogging and find an amicable solution to resolve the conflict. They don't seem to care at what's happening. so the mud-slinging goes on....”
Has anyone seeing and replying to this blog ever thought of this:
1) SP being in the centre of the controversy, our shepherd, who has a higher calling and knows he should lead us – HAS NOT COME OUT AND NIP THE TROUBLE IN THE BUD AND EXPLAINED EVERYTHING.
2) Right at the start when SP sensed something was wrong, should he not being our spiritual leader meet the “truth seeking” group and his Deacons and sort things out. If what SP perceived is not wrong, should he not for the sake of peace and for Christian love, do something about it?
3) The so called “illegal” meetings outside the church, this blog and all the slander being posted would and should not have happened at all.
4) All those who posted their remarks on the blog should show love for each other – pro or against SP.
5) The person who advocates people to go to another church (naming some) because they could not be spiritually fed in Calvary should not have suggested that. Fancy driving sheep out of the fold. Instead of checking and putting things right – why were they not fed spiritually but rather an easy way is chosen – GET OUT!
This would never be our Good Shephard’s way as He left the 99 to seek the one that is lost. Imagine a child in a family who rebelled against the father as she is not happy with what the father is doing with certain things. Would the father not talk to his daughter first and if everything fails, would he the father ask his daughter to get out of the home??
SO WHEN IS SOMEONE GOING TO PERSUADE OUR PASTOR TO START COMING OUT OF HIS SHELL AND DO HEALING, FORGIVENESS AND RECONCILIATION AND SAVE OUR CHURCH???
If changes need to be made – make them!! Let us not wait until God comes down in judgment as He is the one that can see the motives of every heart.
If the administrator wishes to put this as a main item instead of a comment, please feel free to do so.
I pray that God will help everyone to think right and resolve things SOON!
September 22, 2008 8:40 PM
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Call to Calvarites
It's time to unite in our common quest for truth, transparency, good governance, stewardship and accountability in our broken and hurting Church. Until the above goals are achieved, this is what you can do:-
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
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48 comments:
I feel the administrators made a mistake when they opened up the commenting for everyone to comment anonymously.
Let people be identified and accountable for what they say; no name, no comment.
And to add: Yes, I fully concur with the points made in this comment by Chic Kee.
agree with jonathan to disable the 'anonymous' option :)
it really saddens me to see what's happening. have read some of the comments and articles... some pretty interesting comments out there.. but as a wise friend once told me: take them with a grain of salt :)
i have grown up in CC all my life and this is also the place where i met great friends and great people who encouraged and challenged me to godliness. though i'm studying overseas, i still hear stories and thru this blog, am updated about the current issues happening.
just like how i feel so helpless abt the political scene in the country, i feel similarly helpless abt what's happening in CC. besides keeping abreast, i think the best thing i can do is.. pray in love and wisdom.
i am not a very wise person but i was just wondering..
amidst the talk and things, are we, the members of the church, consistently praying and fasting for the church? :) i think it's very crucial that all of us play our role as members of the church and pray.
personally, due to the lack of knowledge and experience of what's happening, most of the time i really dunno what to pray about. so i always will ask God to show me what He wants me to pray about...
i hope, really really hope that our church will again become a church that will impact the community and city in a tremendous way... a church that loves Him and loves ALL people, and that we will fulfill Jesus's call to make disciples of every nation... follow me and make fishers of men! :D aint' that so cool? a church that keeps on loving God and loving people!!!
dear TT crew members,
thank you for bringing up several issues to light. whilst i may not understand all the legal side of things and may not have first-hand experience of what some of you may have gone through, whilst i may not be able to totally comprehend the gravity of the situation, i pray for God's wisdom and grace to be upon you all. may the words and actions you portray be salted with love and wisdom :)
i realised that in the posts (not the comments), there is no accusation that anyone is doing something wrong. yes, some questions are being raised, but that is not an accusation. and we are just waiting for answers. please do correct me if i am wrong.
but i think maybe sometimes, when we talk, when the words just come out of the mouth, perhaps not as polished as one would when writing, perhaps, just perhaps, there was a subtle hint of accusation. i think that's where we got to be very careful and conscious about :) the bible says what comes out of the mouth is actually just an outflow of the heart. so ya, i think we also always have to keep our hearts in check.. guard your heart for it is the wellspring of life :) that's what i've learnt in my overseas stint btw, and also what my dad always tells me :p
anyway, hope i won't be branded as being preachy or wanting to impose my beliefs on you or whatever. but i thought that, well, just in case someone might think that you are out to accuse someone etc., maybe, just maybe it was due to a (careless) remark over a conversation... maybe it's good to check ourselves too.. :) after all the tongue is quite an evil lil thing... :) please do bear with my humble opinion, thanks :)
and finally, to the dear leaders of our church (if you are reading this at all),
i respect you as our leaders, and i trust that you will have the wisdom to do what is right in God's eyes with regards to the situation in church. i've learnt a lot from some of your leadership and, for the pastors, most of your sermons that i heard when i was still in malaysia have been a great blessing. i have had good times and good memories being under your leadership. and also, thank you for all the sacrifices for the church.
i really hope, sincerely hope, that, please, will you, please, help resolve this situation a.s.a.p.? :) i think the members are waiting for some questions to be answered... and ultimately, waiting for SP to initiate the whole reconciliation. this is what i've gathered from reading the posts here.. we are waiting for SP :)
most importantly, all i really hope that our leaders, whoever they might be, will lead us, in truth, accountability, transparency, and heaps of love to fulfill God's calling on this church.
thank you :)
The reason why the 'anonymous' option should be maintained is to protect church members from S.P.'s revenge!
Didn't you hear about the 'crackdown' a few months ago on certain church leaders who attended an alleged 'illegal meeting' held in a neutral place (because they were not alowed to use the church to meet up)? Those leaders were, sadly, removed from leadership! This is just to give you an idea of the strong-arm tactics used by S.P. to "silence the opposition"!
Believe you me, there is no freedom of speech in Calvary Church! Hence, the necessity of this blog!
Hence, this blog also lacks transparency. The irony is amazing.
Hi GT
shocked and surprise to hear from you! good comment--very fair--no prejudice--
Hi GT,
Praise the Lord for your sincere and matured views, altho' I was somewhat very suprised to hear such views from you. Uncle is very proud of you for standing up for the truth. Indeed in Christ alone, the ultimate truth will prevail.
Continue to pray for a mighty outpouring of his Holy Spirit on Calvary Church - BOD, SP, Pastors, fulltime workers, members and fellow worshippers alike - that all of us will see His glory manifested in and through each one of us. Amen.
Take care.
In Christ alone, His truth will prevail.
P.S. Since there's a call for transparency on this blog, let me start the ball rolling. I'm Winslow Wong (WW), a fulltime worker with Calvaryland for more than 5 years, but back in the corporate world since 2006, but still serving our God of Truth in the marketplace.
mr.e, good example of the pot calling the kettle black you are...
Mr E,
I agree with non tt member. Now that I've revealed my identity (not afraid of "witch-hunt" at all as I NO longer hold any CC leadership position), it's your turn Mr E to do so, as you've called for transparency.
That was the point of using the name 'Mr. E' because unless the admins disable the feature everyone who posts will be a mystery.
I could say that I was Hong Meng or Winslow or even SP but you wouldn't really know now would you?
In fact, there can be many people who decide to use the name 'Mr. E' and post whatever they want. You will really never know who these people are.
Furthermore, I am not bound by this lofty call for transparency. I never called for it. The people who set up this blog did. I only pointed out that this blog is set up for this said purpose, yet it fails to be internally coherent in itself. That is the irony of it.
Here's the thing. Whats the point of having random posts on this blog by so called 'concerned Calvarites'?
Yes, its a great place to vent. We'll just call it Cyber-therapy. Everybody can come here and cry and whine about how sad and unhappy they are but in the end the internet is not the place to do this. It is not constructive. It is not beneficial. I fail to see how this blog will help bring about the transparency and change that it has called for.
If anything, this blog serves to pander to disgruntled members of the church.
mr.e, can't say I speak for everyone including yrself but I believe most ppl here have a conscience and are matured enough not to pull such childish stunts like using other ppl's names to post comments just for fun or to spite that person.
As for transparency, the difference btwn this blog's transparency and CC's transparency is that the latter involves millions of funds while as the former does not. I wonder which one is more important.
Also,I believe this blog was started as a consequence of the church leadership suppressing the church members from having differing opinions and asking questions.
Non TT member,
"... I believe most ppl here have a conscience and are matured enough not to pull such childish stunts like using other ppl's names to post comments just for fun or to spite that person."
This is an assumption. I did not assume to the contrary.I merely said it was possible and then went on to explain how it was possible.
"... the difference btwn this blog's transparency and CC's transparency is that the latter involves millions of funds while as the former does not. I wonder which one is more important."
I'm sorry ... I was under the impression that the principle of transparency was what was valued here. I really hope that this is not all about money.
"Also,I believe this blog was started as a consequence of the church leadership suppressing the church members from having differing opinions and asking questions."
I never questioned the 'why.' I think previous posts have clearly explained that. I just don't believe that this is the wisest way to do it.
aiyah stop fighting la.
mr e
to me so long as you dont use anonymous, its fine, why fight like little kids over this issue. anyone who logged in to this blog, can receive this with pinch of salt or receive in good faith, which means you logged in with own risk, noone is compel to logged in, its up to the individual ...
calvarytoday had been read by thounsands of people by now all over..good feedback as i could see...keep up the good work--CT
The amazing thing is that when I check around, I found out that neither SP or any pastor or any deacon has approached the TT group to try to stop all this blogging and find an amicable solution to resolve the conflict. They don't seem to care at what's happening. so the mud-slinging goes on....”
This was written in the beginning of the blog. I wanted to say that it's not that no said anything about blogging. Before this blog started, I spoke to a TT member over webistes and blogging. However, I was given a very "good piece of that person's mind" and told to mind my own business about blogging issue.
So it's there a point to stop and say anything to TT members about blogging. No, It's rejection all the way man...
TT members think they are doing people a favour with this blog but I doubt so. It's just a place to scold people and church. So sad, I also will get scolding (I'm sure). I don't think any of the TT members are willing to listen unless u are on their side. They are just digging up old grounds...
Dear Mr.e,
I appreciate what you are saying but I am not getting what you are trying to say. In other words, get to the point.
If you have an issue, please specify it clearly. You asked for people to be open and when Winslow did, you are still not happy.
Since the TT members are not the wisest bunch to come up with ways that will please you, then please suggest what they should do. Concrete step by step instructions so that they can understand and follow.This is the actual purpose of the blog.
Maybe you could even volunteer to help or lead them to the wisest way to do it.
And to your question, is it about money?
Yes, it is! Millions of dollars being transfered out to personal accounts. Yes it is about money. Many people don't feel it is important because the millions don't belong to us, personally.
But ask yourself, if one day you found out that your bank account has a few thousand ringgit missing. You suspect, the bank staff transferng your money out without your knowledge because it looked dormant for a few years. Would you keep quiet?
Yes, we all will keep quiet because it is not our money but what about YOU???
Karen Tai
Dear the last annonymous,
Please give us the name of the TT member you spoke to regarding websites and blogging. I will scold that person for you.
I find alot of this petty accusations being thrown around by annonymous persons or psuedo persons concerning TT members.
I am a TT Committee member. Officially, there are about 20 of us who have stood out publicly to identify ourselves with the TT Team. Unless you spoke to us, don't label other people as TT members. Just call church members.
This gesture is very much appreciated by us the TT Team members.
Don't ask me who we are. If by now you still don't know, then I have reasons to believe that you are not a member of Calvary Church.
I apologise if I sound harsh.My profession is a Housewife so I spend alot of time scolding children and talking baby language.
Karen Tai
Anonymous, I am not sure if you were referring to me when you said: "I was given a very "good piece of that person's mind" and told to mind my own business about blogging issue."
If you are indeed talking about me, first of all, I would like to tell you that I am not a TT member and it is untrue that I told you to mind your own business about the blogging issues. All I said was that I do not think there is anything wrong in putting down my thoughts on the internet.
If you really want to tell other people about what happened, I would appreciate if you could tell the whole story and not just your side of the story. Thank you.
Since you have brought this up, I must say that I am very disappointed that although you are a church staff, you have yet again not kept to your own promise to keep this between the 2 of us, ie. When you first reprimanded me for posting on the internet, you were the one who asked me to keep this between the 2 of us and to not tell anyone else. But a few weeks later, I found out from a friend that you started telling your cell group members about our conversation. So do please tell me what you are trying to do? Secondly, should I also mention that you also gave me ‘a very good piece of your mind’ and scolded me?
I’m really not too sure what your true intentions are on doing this. But I hope that if you are brave enough to post about this here, you should then also be brave enough to put your name down instead of going under the name ‘Anonymous’.
Dear calvary today & supporters,
'Don't get distracted by mr. e...he's trying to cause confusion & create a diversion, a red herring in every sense of the word. He's probably one of the BOD!
:'(
can we just stop all this and pray, please?
:'(
Glo
we are all here praying,some
good ,some bad comments in lives are normal..let everybody have their say..God is always loving and forgiving..just like children at home, when they quarrel, the parents understood and let them square it out, that is where they learned to handle CONFLICT MANAGEMENT eventually both at home as well as in the society at large.
God is with us, He will see us (the church) thru..
Glo,
Don't worry! We concerned Calvarites are also praying very hard for God's truth to prevail and to keep His church, while we continue to blog RESPONSIBLY.
If you feel you can no longer blog here for whatever reasons, PRAY and the rest of us will continue to BLOG and PRAY. We will each do our part.
In Christ alone, the truth will always prevail... in His time. I'm fully convinced of this because He is our Eternal God of Truth.
Dear Gloria,
I am so sorry you have to witness this ugliness of the situation that's ongoing in the church which you had grown up in, loved and admired. Yes, I have seen you growing up & you are now a fine young lady, with a good heart & right attitudes.
What is happening now in the church have indeed stumbled many fine young people like you, our 2nd generation of Christians. But, my dear, don't be stumbled by it. Rise above the situation, & keep shining for Jesus!
This blog is necessary as a platform for concerned Calvarites to deal with this issue of corruption in the church. Please bear with us. It is something of great importance & HAS to be settled. Soon, I hope!
Our love for S.P., BOD, other pastors, & the members of the church require concerned Calvarites to challenge unrighteousness, lying, stealing & covetouseness. We must not turn a blind eye to this...it is our moral responsibility to check the tide of evil, so that the second generation may be spared!
God bless you! Love you!
to :Glo and all young dynamite adult in calvary
absolutely correct aunty c!! am very touched by what you said. Glo, you too had very balance and godly view of the whole issue in your first comment though you had been far away(oversea) from the church for few years now, we as group of friends missed you because we know who you are as a person,our prayers moved mountain, times and efforts put in will not be in vain.
Salam kawan kawan
bah kata pepatah"tepuk sebelah tangan, tak akan berbunyi", memang pastor di calvary church ada buat serba salah..kalau tidak, kenapa tak berani betulkan keadaan sekarang?
Salam pemuda dari jauh,
Memang senior pastor di calvary church ada buat salah. Kami ada banyak bukti-bukti, 'tapi dia tak mahu mengakui salah. Sebab itu gereja sekarang dipechah belah!
:) thank you everyone for the encouragements.
after a very uplifting conversation with some very wise people, and a quiet night with God, i am at peace now with all these and can understand the bigger picture.
am making a commitment to fast once a week and take some time out to pray besides the usual daily prayers. will do this for a certain period of time.
3 simple things i will be praying about:
1. lots of love
2. lots of wisdom and discernment
3. God's purpose to be fulfilled through the church (when i say 'church', i mean the people, not the four-walls)
that's the best i can do being so far far far away :p
Romans 8:28 sums everything nicely:
'for in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, according to His purpose'
okay. time to hit the books again! this will be the last from me unless God says: speak!
till then, God bless and enjoy all the malaysian food! :) am missing authentic malaysian food heaps!!!
Gloria,
Let not your heart be troubled but trust God's heart. He is still God and He still reigns, despite the little dose of "confusion" that seemingly overwhelms us at times.
Yes, Romans 8:28 sums up everything nicely, "For in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, according to His purpose". His Church will always emerge stronger and more committed to Him, after each upheaval as evident throughout church history. Our Holy Spirit will unite us if we yield to Him.
Take care. BTW, your mm & dd had lunch with aunty Kim Mei & I, and we enjoyed some good Malaysian hawker food.
Our God Reigns.
hello WW
'jeolousleh'..i want to malaysian food...
Dear kelip-kelip (is this a firefly?)
Well, we can organise hawker food party, and we all pay. What say you?
God bless.
Good idea, wait till i come back,now still overseas lar..
Excellent idea.
Hawker food and at the same time open to friends who have yet to accept Jesus as their Saviour.
Plus we can talk about a new Calvary Church. A new beginning.
Dear Brothers and Sisters,
We just left the blog alone for the week end and lo so many comments. Some good, some bad...really bad. Thanks to Diana for keeping things in order.
We noticed that many of you have used this blog to:-
- Crack jokes. That's good (for you alone) but keep to general statements and not hitting at specific person, esp. those not involved in this saga.
- Release tension & complain collection center. Some one suggested we rename as, Cyber Therapy. Good idea. Maybe the church should start a Cyber counselling minisry. We can accommodate this here but we are not qualified to give counselling and advise.
- Catching up with far away kids and friends. It is always great to say hello to long lost friends like Pas. Kelvin, Cindy Leng, RK from Aust. Hi there.
- Scolding people. Sorry that many of you innocent CC members have gotten a shelling because of blogging in this blog. Like someone said, you log in at your own risk.
- Getting informed. Of course, it would be information that the TT members want you to know. To Church staff and representatives,you cannot say that we are one sided on this. This blog was started to inform members of what we know, what we found out, what we have done, what we are pursuing and what we will do next.
So have fun for another 2 days. Come October, we hope to redirect this blog back to the beginning -What next, after the EGM?
Dear TT crew members,
I have been attending Calvary Church since 1984 and serving since 1987 when the church was having services in Wisma MCA.
For years I have been attending the AGMs and voted to accept the financial accounts without question, definitely to get it out of the way and obviously without knowledge of the situation vis a vis the Missions Department and CIM.
I first came to know about this during the first meeting at KBU and have since been keeping in touch through the regular updates and it has changed my approach to the last AGM. I want to commend the TT gang for putting the information on the blog site so concerned Calvarites are aware of developments, this being one of the objectives of this blog and keep it coming.
Many things have and will continue to be said as long as the situation in CC remains unresolved but I just like to quote 1 Tim 6:11 - But as for you, man of God, shun all this; pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, endurance, gentleness. (NRSV)
Keep up the good fight and God bless.
beng soon
To Anonymous fan of CT(calvarytoday):
Its not a problem for me. I didn't realize I was involved in a fight. I just pointed something out and defended my position. By most accounts, I don't see this as a fight.
To simple housewife:
"And to your question, is it about money?
Yes, it is! Millions of dollars being transfered out to personal accounts."
Thank you for clearing this up. At least I know what the real issue is. I am fascinated.
To freedom of speech:
Thank you also for proving my point. I could be SP. Or a member of the BOD. You'll just have to keep guessing. Same goes for every single person who posts on this blog.
Its also curious that for a guy who calls himself 'freedom of speech' your message to the others on the blog is to ignore me. That is quite ironic too.
"You'll just have to keep guessing. Same goes for every single person who posts on this blog. "
To clarify. I meant you'll have to question every identity of every person who posts in this blog.
mr.e, not too sure on what exactly your point is as you seem to be commenting all over the place...can pls clarify properly?
and one more thing..mr.e,on your comment:-
To simple housewife:
"And to your question, is it about money?
Yes, it is! Millions of dollars being transfered out to personal accounts."
Thank you for clearing this up. At least I know what the real issue is. I am fascinated.
I am quite blur on how come it took you so long to figure out wat the real issues are,even after reading all the articles and attending egm. hmm..seems to me tat you are even blurer than a blur person like me.fascinating indeed.
Mr. e
What do you think this blog is about? We all really want to know what you thinking.
Every sunday, the church ask for money, money and more money. Of course, every body here is talking about money, money and more money.
So many of us also received a letter from the church to remind us to Leap in faith 2. How to forget about money?
Life group leader also ask us to pay rm85 to go for 40 anniversay dinner. How to forget about money?
Good thing I not rich, if not they will ask me to buy 10k dinner also. How to forget about money?
"October 7, 2008 4:49 PM
Anonymous blur blur said...
I am quite blur on how come it took you so long to figure out wat the real issues are,even after reading all the articles and attending egm. hmm..seems to me tat you are even blurer than a blur person like me.fascinating indeed."
Perhaps you really didn't understand the answer I recieved:
"Yes, it is! Millions of dollars being transfered out to personal accounts."
My original question was more general. From reading the comments on this blog, I was starting to think that perhaps the issue was more a personal one. That individuals here merely did not like the persons involved. This would explain why there are posts and comments that talk about 'arrogance' 'witch hunts' '40 yrs vs. 47 yrs' etc. These thoughts don't have much to do with money.
I don't think the issue here is about the money at all. I think its personal.
"Yes, it is! Millions of dollars being transfered out to personal accounts."
Its about millions of dollars being transferred out into a personal account. The key words are not 'millions of dollars.' The key is 'into a personal account.'
Also interesting is that CIM is NOT a personal account of SP. This was made pretty clear at the EGM. And yes, you can allude to the fact that he is a beneficiary but you can't prove the mismanagement of funds in that they have benefited him personally.
By repeating 'transferred out to personal accounts' multiple times, it does not make it any more true.'
Could it be then possible that the real issue here is that certain individuals have a personal vendetta against SP and are trying to tie issues together to form a case against him and the leadership.
I could be wrong, but prior posts and comments have given me reason to think as much.
mr.e
The longer SP & the Deacons keep quiet, the more personal stories we are going to read about here.
I also agree with what moneyX3 said. I also got a reminder to fulfill the leap of faith if God has blessed me. I am now praying for God to tell me if i should give to the church and let them travel business class or i bring my family for a overseas trip.
so mr.e, if you are SP's good friend, please advise him to give back the money, and then ask this group to stop this blog. Then no more people can be personal.
mr.e..why la u so blur blur..they hv made it so obvious tat CIM IS a personal ministry of SP and to take out any funds from CIM's accounts, all they need is a Group A signatory and a Group B signatory to sign. Guess wat..Group A is SP or his wife and Group B is SP's son or someone else...not his personal account meh?
Forget about MR. e. He is here to create confusion and trouble.
Blur blur ...
Why are you so hung up about the money in CIM? That one we know already. But to get the money in CIM ... that is the issue here. We have empowered the BOD to handle our money and do with it as they deem such.
Do they have to be accountable? Yes!
Do they have a resposibility to us? Yes!
But is it wrong for them to use the authority we gave them? I don't think so.
As for CIM being personal. Blur blur ... if you register a company and you get some funding from at 3rd party, is it a personal funding? No, the money goes into the company account. The account is not personal what. Besides CIM accounts are audited. If SP personally benefited from the money there it would have been flagged. Anyway, the bottom line is that CIM is not a personal account.
ms. e, people are gonna think we're related. ;-) But besides the name, I think we aren't on similar wavelengths. SP and I are not friends. I don't know him besides from seeing him on the pulpit in church.
I come from a position whereby I I feel that the TT gang isn't allowing for the BOD and SP to adequately respond. The accusations are too rapid and they have a lot to respond to. They also have reason to be cautious in their responses because as can be seen in the EGM, anything they say can and will be scrutinized.
Furthermore, your post seems to be phrased as a threat. "Do this - or else!" Again, thats a personal attack which further justifies my claim that the issues here have nothing to do with money. Its personal. The money part is the excuse.
Mr. F, telling people to ignore me is terribly uncalled for. It goes against the sentiment of this blog. I was under the impression that it was about discussing and debating issues. Now, if you don't want to engage in this discussion, that's fine.
Dear mr.e…I think there is not just 1 issue, but 2 issues on CIM la. Well,actually..3 issues, but since during egm,they have agreed to return our dear CARED back to our church, although I’m still blur blur on why CARED was transferred into CIM in the 1st place, but that’s another blur story altogether…anyway, we can minus 1 issue for now..so left with 2 issues.
Ok,my issue on the money that is already in CIM, I am firstly blur why SP did not return back the balance to our missions fund….why keep it there to collect interest instead of passing back to calvary to send this money out to help the poor churches? Truly quite confused. And why I think there is still an issue on this is that besides the money not being put to good use, but why la does SP need all this money to travel around? He only uses RM78k a year mah..so balance should give back to church,don’t u agree?
Don’t think I can agree with you that it is not wrong for BOD to use the authority we give them lo….it is wrong if they misuse their authority and in the case of CIM, I really think they did misuse their authority..sigh,so sad
U know why many of us say CIM is a personal ministry, my friend mr.e (hope u consider me your fren since I think we blur blur people should stick together)…because SP himself said so! The nice but blur laywer (I say blur coz he was not made aware of the whole story) already warned us all that we cannot touch this CIM as it is personal. And if it is declared personal, surely it must belong to someone…..who? well, my blur instincts tell me that this will depend on the no.of directors in CIM and out of this directors, how many are related to each other.based on %, I still stick to the fact that SP and his family owns CIM lo as he,his wife and son are all directors and with a flick of the hand to sign cheques, any transactions can be easily authorized to go through – just SP and his son needs to sign for a transaction to go thru..true or not? Even if it is audited, the auditors will just check if the transactions have been properly approved – Debits and credits…all those accounting jargons which again I’m blur blur about. So in the eyes of auditors, surely, nothing is wrong on a legal manner,isn’t it?
I am more than open to discuss this with you,mr.e…since we blur people really need to help enlighten each other,otherwise we’ll be left behind on the updates. :)
Hi Mr E & Blur Blur,
As regards Mr E's comment that "as for CIM being personal...", I think Blur Blur has quite rightly answered that "…because SP himself said so!" Yes! All of us heard SP loud & clear declaring that CIM is his (SP's) personal ministry at the last AGM when Liza Low was asking some questions on CIM. Where were you, Mr E, when SP made that declaration on his own accord? Perhaps, you were not there. Then you are forgiven & please check with your friends who were there or otherwise ask SP to let you hear the recording of the AGM (if you doubt what I have just said).
And for Mr E's comment that ".... if you register a company and you get some funding from a 3rd party, is it a personal funding? No, the money goes into the company account. The account is not personal what." Of course the account may not be personal, per se, but CIM is a personal ministry & that would make CIM's bank account(s) personal, wouldn't it?
Btw, CIM is not a company because it is not registered under the Companies Act, 1965. I would think that CIM is more akin to a sole-proprietorship or, at best, a partnership (with SP & SAP being the partners). Others in reading, do correct me if I am wrong ('cos I am only "Not So Blur" lah, I also don't know everything; I just wanted to enlighten Mr E & Blur Blur only).
As for CIM's directors, since inception on 8th Sep 2002, they are .....
1. SP
2. SAP
3. SP Junior (aka Jim Guneratnam)
4. PO
5. Aric Low
Notice that there is not a single Deacon there despite CIM receivng RM 200,000 per annum from CC up till 31st December 2007.
Later when the TT crew started to smell something fishy in the transfers of funds from CC to CIM, the "new kid on the board", Deacon Philip Tan (a wellknown SP "yesman" who just came back from Singapore), was made a CIM director, perhaps in an effort to hoodwink Calvarites that there is a Deacon to watch over CIM. Yes but what about the earlier 5 & 1/2years?
Read someone's comment somewhere that CIM cheques are signed by Group A (probably SP & SAP) & Group B (probably Jim & PO). I think nobody (other than God & God knows who) knows who the CIM signatory are - it could jolly well be a sole signatory of either SP, SAP or SP Jr; after all it is SP's personal ministry & thus he is at liberty to appoint whoever he so chooses. Being a CIM director may not qualify one to be a CIM signatory.
All said since SP has declared CIM as his personal ministry, by right we have no locus standi to talk about it but I thought I just want Blur Blur & Mr E to be better informed & thus be "not so blur" loh.
So Blur Blur & Mr E, on behalf of the "Not So Blur" Club, may I welcome you to our club & your new status of being "not so blur". Ha ! Ha ! Ha !
PS (Side Note) - Read somewhere that Karen & Diana who went to BCM were downgraded from Voting Member (VM) to Associate Member (AM) by some odd provision in the CC Constitution. It is also provided that VM who have gone overseas (& I think outstation) for an extended period (for studies &/or work) are also downgraded to AM.
If so, was Deacon PT downgraded to AM when he went to Singapore to work? Also when did he return to KL permanently? How well does he know CC since his return (& prior to the AGM)? It seems that certain Calvarites have been "parked" as AM, for as many as 15 years, on the rationale that they do not know CC well enough.
Did PT know CC well enough before he was nominated to stand for election? Was he upgraded to VM? Do I smell any double standard or cronyism in this matter. CC is so full of shit these days, I just can't seem to smell properly; someone out there please help me.
ohhh..macam ini ke. thank u for updating me, my smart not so blur friend :)
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