Parameters for the meeting from both sides were given to the two mediators who then came out with a harmonized set of parameters for the meeting. The date of the meeting, which was to be held in the hotel of the said Calvarite, was mutually agreed upon and set for this Thursday, 29th October.
The proposed meeting was to be attended by 4 representatives from the TTG group and 4 from the Church leadership including PG. The Chairmen would be the 2 mediators. Another 3 council members from the Assemblies of God Malaysia were expected to attend as observers.
Admittedly, the concerned members were pleasantly surprised that PG finally agreed to meet with the concerned members to seek an amicable solution to the many issues in our Church.
The members had renewed hope that there will be a positive outcome to this meeting so that everyone can return to Calvary Church to rebuild the Church and to move forward.
Sadly, this hope was dashed today (Tuesday). PG has decided not to proceed with the much anticipated meeting. He came out with a flimsy excuse that his deacons cannot make it. This is akin to saying that out of his 7 deacons and 8 pastors, he could not get 3 of them to join him.
If indeed this was true, then all the deacons and pastors ought to be sacked. Just a few months ago, they spent many evenings holding small group ceramahs to defend PG and to justify their sacking of Dr Lum for speaking the truth. (Click the link to read SP and BOD Divides Church Further).
Now they cannot even spend one evening to try to save a dying Church. If this is the real situation, then the Pastors ought to re-examine their calling seriously and the deacons should give way to others who have a heart for the welfare of the church.
Furthermore, if it is really true that none of the deacons and pastors can accompany PG to the meeting, let it be known that even if he came alone, he would have gotten the respect of the TTG (and the entire Church) for keeping the appointment.
If, however, the above is not true, then PG is outright lying.
The concerned members had, time and again in the past, initiated steps to seek legal redress, only to hold back each time, always, in the hope that PG will come to his senses and agree to resolve the issues in an amicable way. In a final attempt, the group recently, issued a letter through a lawyer to PG to request him to re-convene an EGM to re-consider the resolutions which were thrown out by Rev Ronnie Chin at the last AGM. PG promptly replied that he cannot accede to the members’ request. In his reply he said,
“I humbly implore upon your goodselves to advise your clients (concerned members) that the Deacons and I are ever ready and willing to discuss any concern that they (concerned members) may have in respect of the Church.”
So, after all that rhetoric about wanting to resolve the ongoing saga in Calvary Church the Christian way and about his ever willingness to meet the concerned members, Pastor Prince Guneratnam has once again proven that he is not a man of his words.
This is just real sad!
“I humbly implore upon your goodselves to advise your clients (concerned members) that the Deacons and I are ever ready and willing to discuss any concern that they (concerned members) may have in respect of the Church.”
So, after all that rhetoric about wanting to resolve the ongoing saga in Calvary Church the Christian way and about his ever willingness to meet the concerned members, Pastor Prince Guneratnam has once again proven that he is not a man of his words.
This is just real sad!
35 comments:
You have done well before God to agree to meet and try and sort things out even if the meeting did not take place. Hope the mediators give it one more try.
Well, day by day the true colours of PG is slowly but surely creeping out. Not by the doings of the TTG group, but surely by the intervention of the Lord.
Talk is cheap brothers & sisters. But walking the talk is what matters. Judge for yourselves; is PG man of his words? Does he really have the heart of the calvarites to settle things in the church amicably?
As I see it, the proposed meeting by a prominent Calvarite together with the General Superintendent of AG Malaysia would be one good avenue to prove each other's sincerity (PG, BOD, TTG) in wanting to resolve the ongoing saga in Calvary Church. But, just imagine the answer or rather flimsy excuse given by PG!
Wake up dear brothers & sisters of Calvary Church. Ask yourselves these questions:
1. What does the TTG group gain or lose from exposing all the wrongdoings of PG, BOD?
2. What does PG gain or lose from all these revelation?
From your answers, you would be able to know why certain individual(s) is/are fighting so hard not to have the resolutions put forward to the members, for fear of losing their positions, material wealths, ego etc.
In nomine Patris et fillii et Spiritus Sancti.
PG decided not to have the meeting in the last minutes, from my observation, I can say that he is not sincere, not concern, not interested, not caring and not humble and etc. In fact, under any normal circumstances, an ordinary person would have been very pro-active in handling the conflicts. Why does he have to wait for 2 years (almost 2 years) and yet not even initiating in his very personal capacity to meet with the concerned members? From what I observed, I did not hear any announcement that PG is initiating for a meeting personally to meet with any members thus far for their grievances, instead, anyone who questioned will suffer the "chopping".
To the "first anonymous", I think you dont really know what you are talking, 2 years gone and with so many egms/agms, PG still cannot resolve the problems but instead more PROBLEMS cropped-up and you are asking the concerned members to give one more try.. Why dont you try at your end and keep the concerned members inform instead?
It seemed very easy to give cheap opinions but it is very costly for all the MISTAKES AND WRONG that is taking place in CC.
Excellent TTG ! now you got CC and Christianity being debated in the blog of Malaysia Today and many more souls will be turned away due to your selfish & personal agenda. Plse ask yourselves honestly, are more people being saved by your blog or turned away? You will be held accountable for the outcome one day. One of the main reasons we go to CC is to worship God in peace and the rest of the 'politics' in church we let God handle it in His own time. You might say we are foolish or blind but let me tell you this , we are at peace with God. Are you ?
Explaining the meaning "In nomine Patris et fillii et Spiritus Sancti" ut in by Anonymous @ 10.50am.
The quote is actually in the language Esperanto
"In Nomeni (name) Patri (father) Et (and) Fili (son) Spiritus (spirit) Sancti (sanctity or peace/holyness)"
So it is "In the name of the father, the son, and the holy spirit"
This quote is also brought up in a movie called "The Boondock Saints"
It is said with this prayer:
"And shepards we shall be for thee my lord for thee, Power hath descended forth from thy hand our feet may swiftly carry out thy commands. So we shall flow a river forth to thee and teeming with souls shall it ever be. In Nomeni Patri Et Fili Spiritus Sancti."
The prayers basically means that you will gain the power from the Lord to do as he wants and make a river flow of the bad souls that he makes you take.
In the movie the 2 brothers say this prayers before they kill a bad person.
It's a good quote.
Dear Anonymous at 12.04pm
I was and am still like you, we go to the house of God to worship our Lord and Saviour, but not the Leader; not the pastors, OK? I am like you, I have peace of God and the joy of the Lord whereever I go (but not only in CC), because I know God is with me all the times.
Interestingly, from your comment, in CC, the 'politic' you mentioned were all started from the leadership, in particular, our very own senior pastor, sad right??
He had in his very own right, in a very autocratic sense; abused, sacked, take off memberships, set his own rules and preached messages that condemned in many ways during Sunday service as well as even during Friday prayer meeting.
If ever, God is looking for any accountability, he and the BOD and Leaders in CC are to be responsible.
PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING:-
http://mt.m2day.org/2008/content/view/28127/84/
Anonymous at 12.04pm October 28, 2009:
Why you still don't get it that the time has finally come! More & more dirt is being dug out, more & more signs of God's displeasure are being revealed. Just an advise, don't leave your brains outside the church when you go in to worship. I don't think the Lord wants to speak to people without brains in His house. After all, that's what makes us different from animals (besides other reasons).
I may sound harsh, but a spade is a spade. You don't call it something else. Likewise, a wrong is a wrong, immaterial whether he's a pastor or a layman. It is those so called christians who condone the wrongs of their fellow christians especially pastors that are chasing away the potential believers. Are we salt and light to the world by "keeping quiet" to the wrongs and giving excuses such as "we go to CC is to worship God in peace and the rest of the 'politics' in church we let God handle it in His own time."???
Yes, I am at peace with God over this issue. And I would be glad to report to Him at the end of it all that I've done and said my part. I will not give Him the excuse that "I left the church politics for you to handle Lord, in your time."
anonymous 12.04pm...yes, we are all at peace with God.
but i doubt PG and his deacons are at peace with God!
It loooks like PG have a lot of things to hide by cancelling the meeting the last minute. The circular world is practising truth, transparency and good governance yet PG being the so-called CEO of CC is so afraid of telling the truth and practiing good governance. If he has nothing to hide he should not be afraid to attend the meeting.
As a member of CC for more than 25 years I demand that PG and his team of BOD and pastors be accountable to all members who have over the years gave their hard earned money to CC.
As a last straw legal action should be taken against PG and BOD for failure to practise due diligence on the contribution of members.
Hi Calvarites,
This wonderful brother took great pain to organise a meeting between Calvary Church leaders (incl. Sn Pastor), AOG leaders (incl. Superindentant)and concerned members.
This was done in the spirit of resolving church matters by sitting down and talk. However, Calvary Church leaders chose not to sit down and talk. This attitude is the same for years. What have gone wrong with the leaders!
Calvary Church leaders know fully well that legal redress can be the only option if they choose not to meet. Still they had chosen not to meet. They had chosen not to avert a court case. Can you imagine!!
It is very funny that we get ppl like anonymous @ 12.04pm to come here and make us go on a guilt trip with them. Do you believe that he/she is really worshipping in peace and letting God handle the "politics"? If really so then why is he/she reading this blog and other blogs like Malaysia Today?
Calvary Today never claim to be a missions & evangelism blog, so why should they expect ppl read materials here to get saved. Ppl log in here to read and be warned about the greediness of a pastor and his family. By the look of their page hits counter, it don't look like ppl are turned off at all. In fact more and more are turning here.
In contrast, the church is turning ppl off and they are not reaching out and saving lost souls. Many new visitors are put off after the 1st visit because they are always asking for more and reminding ppl to give their pledges.
i think anonymous 12.04 feels no peace, hence he or she had to come to this site to release some stress...haha
TAKE 2:(sorry, discovered the 2 column format didn't work, so it is retyped in order to make sense)
Do they MATCH?
1.THE VISIONS (3x!) & DECLARATION OF PG & BOD:
A 5,000 seating Church was to be built
in 1980s(RM20M),then in 90s (RM50M)
then in 2009 (RM250M)…
2011 or beyond (RM300M>>>)
HERE IS THE OUTCOME:
Over 20 years on,still NO Church building.
Vision ‘transformed’ to CONVENTION CENTRE(!)
which the constructionis now HALTED in
dubious circumstances. Isn’t its Demise in Sight?
2.THE VISIONS & DECLARATION OF PG & BOD:
The Very Best is to be built for God.
HERE IS THE OUTCOME
The original ‘opulent’ be design has been
substantially compromised.And the Education&
Residence Blocks KIV as “Core & Shell" A.G.A (As
Good As) abandoned!
3.THE VISIONS & DECLARATION OF PG & BOD:
God is Holy. The temple Of God is sacred.
HERE IS THE OUTCOME
The appointed Architect is a Free Manson.
He has admitted to a RM100 Million
‘mistake’ in Costing!
4. THE VISIONS & DECLARATION OF PG & BOD:
‘Faith’ is all you need.
HERE IS THE OUTCOME:
Deception is the order of the day from Day1.
Why the application of Bank Loans, the sale
of properties, the emptying of church
coffers, the desperate Fund Raising—
from everything to anything?
5.THE VISIONS & DECLARATION OF PG & BOD:
CCC a great testimony to God’s Glory.
HERE IS THE OUTCOME:
Architect claimed glory BEFORE it even started.
The Pulpit is defiled with half-truths, blatant lies,
PG’s Self-ambition, power & status covetousness.
NOT SO SIMPLE, IS IT?
1. Do you think PG has even informed the BOD of this meeting in the first place?
IS the Excuse he gave "that The Deacons could not make it" really is the truth or he made it up?
QUESTIONS:
How is it possible ALL the deacons can't make it?
This meeting was scheduled weeks ahead!
Who truly cares for the welfare of the CC--the beloved Calvarite who made it a point to fly back from attending a funeral overseas or
the'BIG TIME' PG & BOD who clearly make no effort
whatsoever?
Does anybody still need proof or convincing that PG& BOD are bent on preserving themselves at the expense of everything Christ stands for?
This type of battle needs wisdom and courage. I have fought these Spin Dragon Expert and their Arsenal of Spinners within the Churches. Mind you I was young then, and lack the resources and internet like today. I was in my 20’s then. My advise to you is to change tack and learn to bring FEAR into their lives. Right now and after many years of cover up after cover up and as Warren Buffet says “when the tides subsides, those who are naked will be obvious”. Some pastors are proud of their nakedness and when you have this type of attitude, arrogance and Nepotism in their agenda, you need to finish them off.
>> The evil forces within focus will be on your personality rather than the main issues of CRIMINAL breach of Trust. They will do their best to take you out, demoralize, dishearten, ridicule you in public & in their evil unity. Their tactics will be in unity when you are alone. So bring along a friend, video and recording material and have it all on you tube. Never let those critic and hypocrites leave unchallenged. In this case, these blind people still do not see that the BOD and Tan Sri PG acts are worst than the man in “10 talents parable” who hid the one talent. Go ask the BOD and Tan Sri PG, sons, daughter to tell their MASTER they have lost the one talent and now owes 3 talents.
#1 task: 1. Identify those who would take up the leadership, should all deacons, pastors, elders resign en mass. Prepare the backup/alternative plans NOW!!
#2 If they are blocking you from calling an EGM, then start a signatory campaign.
#3. Start your protest by identifying and wearing a brightly coloured t-shirt like yellow, red, green every Sunday and at every gathering of the church to promote AWARENESS. Wear the same coloured T-shirt until the matter is resolved. It allows people to ask you question and an opportunity to respond. Sit together and support one another.
....to be continued..
PG and BOD are very good at talking but when it comes to the doing part it is absolutely lacking.
The sentence given by PG in his reply letter ("..the Deacons and I are ever ready and willing to discuss any concerns that they(concerned members) may have in respect of church")is always the tune PG and BOD have been singing from the time the church matters were brought up last year.
They have been insincere and merely mouthing or wording it without ever meaning to actually do something about it. They have actually been telling lies to members all this while. Just to pacify you so you cannot do anything.
Except that now the lie has been exposed!
There is clear evidence of what PG and BOD have been doing all this while... telling lies all the time.
So where is character and integrity in PG and BOD?
Why do all the preaching and acting good in church whereas you are doing something totally opposite?
I starting to wonder if PG is human at all. It will be very sad if he ends his life journey like this. People don't doubt that he started well and indeed brought the church up well, but something has taken over him, perhaps money and power. He does not look like he realises all the wrong he's done. I think until today he stands firm thinking he has done no wrong. So many people are so hurt, and it will take many years to heal this hurt because it is not a physical wound. PG as long as you are alive, there is still time, there is still grace. Come clean for the sake of yourself and your family.
The ridculous thing is that the other pastors and BOD also think that PG's behaviour is fine and he deserves to be given liberty and respect even when he behaves as he does now.
The other pastors and BOD are throwing the blame on concerned members and accusing them of bringing out the wrongs to public domain. How can they be so blind and undiscerning?
It appears now CC leaders are becoming like cult leaders, so where is God's anointing in CC?
What has happened to the fountain head church that PG has been boasting all along?
Pride, coveteousness and selfish ambition have taken over PG and the BOD and other pastors are also endorsing it.
Reading the article shows that so much effort have gone into the preparation for the talk (from both sides), including determining the "who & who" that will be involved at the talk. And the Senior Pastor agreeing to attend? Well, that's a very positive step.
So, you mean the TTG cannot agree to another date? It would indeed be a very sad day if the proposed date is more important than the proposed talk.
The solution is simple - let the church leadership suggest an alternate date and with that, move ahead with talk!
Hello "Pro-Talking"
It appeared that you really pro talk huh? To the extent that you quoting the TTG out of context, the person who is not interested to attend the meeting last -last-last minute( saat-saat yang terakhir) is CC from what I read from the article and now you twist and said let the church decide the date..what is this? CC and SP and BOD had lost its credibility and obviously PG and BOD are not in the spirit of resolving conflicts.
Are you trying to fish info from TTG? or you are twisting again?? Hey, TTG out there be careful and be on the alert.
Look at the title again: PG chickens out....( you sure know, what is chicken and out, right?)
To All Calvarites,
Whose choice is it in the selection of both the architect and the contractor?
TTG has no say in it!
Voting members (though with voting power) has no say in it!
Sorry, Associate members, really really you have no say! Why? You cannot even speak in general meetings! But, still you are expected just to give..and..give..)
How much say has the Deacons? Only they know themselves. Hope they search their conscience.
So, who has the final say? The only say.
IT IS THE SENIOR PASTOR. WHY? HE IS THE CEO. HE HAS ALL THE AUTHORITY AS CONTAINED IN THE CHURCH CONSTITUTION. HE HAS ALL THE POWER AS MENTIONED IN THE MISSION MANUAL.
PRINCE HAS ALL THE SAY..MADE THE CHOICE..BUT TURNED OUT THAT THE ARCHITECT IS A FREEMASON and ARCHITECT IS IN A FINANCIAL MESS.
It appeared that he prayed for God's wisdom but God did not give it to him.
So you decide - Is it God's will or SP's will in the whole CCC debacle?
Pro-talking only no use. Must pro-understanding also. If got no proposed date how to proposed talk.
That is what is happening all these while, everybody not the cause of all this problems in church talking but the ONE BIG TAN SRI responsible for all this, don't talk. Always send and always got so many pro-talking people talk for him.
The one time he agrees to talk at first, then last minute chicken out and then blame his other pro-talking deacons cannot make it.
Now this pro-talking blame TTG people cannot agree to another date. Ask PG give another date. Anytime, anyday tell us here. If TTG cannot make it, I'm sure from among us readers, there are four of us who can make it.
Pro-Talking doesn't know what he's talking about.
The meeting date was agreed by all including PG, last minute he change mind and says his deacons can't make it. Nothing to do with TTG not willing to meet another day. TTG willing to meet anytime, anywhere but PG not giving a date.
When a person breaks an agreed appointment, he must propose a new date. PG just say "cannot make it" and say nothing else. So how??
The ball at PG's feet.
TTG, please do not let anyone make you feel guilty for exposing the wanton lies and deceptions of PG.
They will make the following accusations against TTG: first, for making Christianity look bad to the public and second, for not being compassionate and forgiving. It's just a common tactic out of desperation.
THe wrongdoings of PG should be made public to serve as a warning to others.
If a person says that he/she doesn't want to be a christian because of corrupted pastors like PG, then this person has no genuine intention to become a christian in the first place.
This blog is for those who were/still are attending CC. If any non-believers are reading this, we Christians are just sinners saved by God's grace, some of us will keep our faith and others will not. Worship Jesus because no one will ever love you more!
Had Prince believed in meeting, he would have called years ago?
Had BOD believed in meeting, they would also have called?
If Prince is not serious but Deacons yes, they would have 'forced' SP to call for meeting.
All these didn't take place - not in the past, nor in the present, nor in the future.
Prince never change in his style all these years. He appears to believe in having meetings, in forming committees..but finally all for show, for PR .. to please and appease.. but finally come to nothing.
So, it's no surprise he will snub..AG Superintendent..whoever prominent Personality (if it's proven no use for him).
Such is the kind of Senior Pastor, Calvary Church is having! Sad..isn't it? Always want to be proven wrong but each passing day, more than convince that Prince must step down as Senior Pastor.
If Prince Guneratnam calling himself the CEO of CC think he is high and mighty with all the power and say disrespecting the voting rights of members of CC then why not all of us let him, BOD and his team of pastors be the only members of CC.
SP have been too arrogant and proud of himself for too long that he has forgotten why he was called to serve and have lost respect for God and HIS WORDS. The fear of God is no longer in him. BOD wake up to see that you are serving God and not SP. Be like Dr Lum who reveal all bacause he fear God.
DO YOU REALLY WANT TO SEE?
When the blind man came before Jesus Christ for healing, BEFORE Jesus performed the Miracle, HE
asked the blind man:
"What do you want me to do for you?" and
the BLIND man replied " I want to see"
Mark 10:45-47
And, so it is the same with BOD, Ass Pastors, and with every member of CC: Do they WANT to SEE or want to remain Blind to the TRUTH in CC's leadership under PG?
Until they honestly & sincerely want it and ask Jesus, their eyes can not be opened and thus, shall never see, no matter The FACTS are right before their eyes.
it is saddening to see how some of these calvarites are still enthusiastically promoting the Carnival without even realizing that they are working hard for a lost cause, their efforts are going down the big longkang and CCC will never be completed as it was never God's plan but just one man (Tan Sri's) plan. end of the day, when these group of ppl realize they've been hoodwinked all along by their senior pastor, I pray that they will be able to recover from their disappointments!
Anonymous said,
I hope all the pastors of Calvary church and also the BOD read this. Under your unscrupulous leadership you have all committed spiritual abuse by dominating, controlling, lying, manupulating and exploiting the members of the church for your own personal gain and private kingdom-building. In the eyes of God, you have sinned!!
Ex-Calvarite,
My past contributions to the CCC funds are all wasted, and so are many other calvarites. I feel like going up to face them to demand the return of my money now that I know that CCC is definitely not from the call of God.
Is there such thing as a CEO in the House of God? They are operating the church like a commercial enterprise rather then a House of worship. Remember, how Jesus overturned the tables of those running a trade in the House of God, shouting and chasing them out, " YOU SHALL NOT TURN MY FATHER'S HOUSE INTO A HOUSE OF TRADE!"
I am particularly disgusted over the behaviour of the associated pastors and other pastors for not being able to discern with their hearts what is right or wrong before God. You all have no guts to stand up for God and fight for His truth. To each one of you, I asked, just whom do you serve? man or God?
Response to Anonymous Ex-calvarite 3.11.2009 5.24pm
Well said my friend as it express what is in my heart also. SP has still not repented of his sins. He has the guts to "inform" (without telling the truth about the actual legal implication of the failed contract and the true financial status if CCC were to continue)the church how much have been collected for CCC during the recent carnival and how much from loans. What he doesn't tell is that the loan has to be repaid and the amount involved. Where is the money coming from? From the members of CC again as if the members have a lifetime debt to SP. Everybody gave towards Calvaryland which is now a failed project then SP asked for money to fulfil his own heart desire to have a mega church in the form of CCC, another failed project. How long more should we give give give???? SP if you are reading this search your heart and ask yourself "do you think God would want you to rob from your sheep"?
Will every members of CC open their eyes to see the deceit of SP.
Yes... we are opening our eyes and if SP's doings are liken to the Pharisees in the OT, then may the Lord deals with him.
James 5 clearly explains it all and is very much directed to the current situation in our church.
Be patient and persevere, says the Lord. Do not follow the Devil's game plan, and that is causing us to have hatred, judgmental, uneasiness, etc. Believe in the Lord that all this things will come to pass with a victory in the Hands of our Lord.
Dear Ben,
The TTG people have been very patient and continuing to persevere in this saga and be assured they will not give up till the Lord brings complete victory and restore Truth, Transparency and Good Godly Governance in CC.
Even though the TTG people are persevering on for the Lord, they have not followed the "Devil's game plan" quite unlike PG and his leaders. They have indeed "follow the Devil's game plan". PG has no love for God's sheep and His church. He has shown us all that he is not interested in finding solutions to this saga. His only interest is thinking of ways to get more money so that he can build his dream ccc, even to the point of going to get money from the public people.
Why should our God want money from non-christians to build His church? Have you ever seen any other church publicise their church building project and raising funds through the newspaper and asking the public to attend the fund raising events?
God can cause the non-christians to be generous to give, but we don't need to go asking for money from them because our God is Great. By going to the newspaper and asking the public to support the church building fund shows absolute lack of faith in our Great God.
The TTG people truly trust that our God is Great. That's why we see many outsiders like Bamboo Conspiracy encouraging them with God's Word. If our pastors do not do their job in encouraging and feeding His sheep, God will bring others to do their job. That's Godly Kingdom Ministry.
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