Sunday, November 9, 2008

Post EGM - Another Deception at EGM?

At the recent EGM, a question was posed to the Board of Deacons on the retirement age of Senior Pastor (SP) and Bro Patrick Wong elaborated that under our church constitution, there is no retirement age specified for SP. This deacon tried to hoodwink the congregation by side-stepping the ‘real question’. Everyone who has read our church constitution knows that the constitution does not have any reference to the retirement age for SP. The question was not whether the constitution provided for SP’s retirement but what was the retirement age for SP. In other words, what is our church policy with regards to the retirement age for SP.

In his answer, Bro Patrick did not mention that our church has a Staff Handbook which addresses this issue. Under Section 2 of the handbook, ALL the staff of the church are classified into 3 categories namely,

1) Pastoral and Ministerial Staff
2) Office Staff
3) General/Technical Staff

Under the description of “Pastoral and Ministerial Staff”, it is stated that “Senior Pastor heads the pastoral team (pastoral and ministerial team) comprising staff categories such as Senior Associate Pastors, Associate Pastors, Assistant Pastors and Ministerial Staff.”

It is obvious that SP as the head of the Pastoral and Ministerial Staff, falls into this first staff category. He is certainly not part of the Office Staff or General/Technical Staff.

Section 11 (1) states that the Retirement Age of all Church Staff, with the exception of Pastors, will be 55 years of age. Section 11 (2) states that the Retirement Age for Pastors will be 60 years of age.

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Both SP (who is 63 this year) and Sis Petrina (who is 64 this year) have crossed the retirement age specified in the handbook.

The questions which needs to be answered are:

1. Were there contracts signed for the extension of employment of both SP and his wife?
2. Were the contracts approved by the Board of Deacons?
3. Was SP’s extension contract brought before the church members at an AGM or EGM to be approved as required under the constitution? (None of the TTG members and other members remembers such an event) His extension as Senior Pastor, may be NULL AND VOID, if not approved by members at an AGM or EGM.
4. What are the terms of their contracts?

Not too long ago, a long-serving church staff retired at age 57 (after her retirement was initially overlooked by the church administrator) and SP offered her re-employment at less than half her last drawn salary. She left in total disgust, hurt and disillusioned. We hope that SP has applied this same condition to himself and his wife and are now drawing not more than half the amount of their last drawn salaries. If not, then they are nothing but pure hypocrites. Pastors as our leaders should always follow God’s principle of using the same measure in everything they do. They must practice what they preach.

Now, back to our dear Bro Patrick. It is now clear that Bro Patrick, by answering the way he did, was trying to deceive the 800 members present at the EGM. He has been on the Board of Deacons since 1975 and therefore, he cannot claim ignorance of the Staff Handbook, which was probably approved by the deacons. And SP, by keeping mum, during Bro Patrick’s answer is guilty of abetting the deception.

We reiterate our call on Bro Patrick to resign. He was not man enough to resign when we first called on him to do so in our 8th Update. We hope he has enough integrity left in him to do so now.

As for SP, who has lost most of the members’ respect, we beseech him to leave gracefully so that Calvary Church can be restored to its former glory. There has been enough pain, hurt and lives destroyed in this whole saga.

We recognise that he has done a lot for Calvary Church in his early 30-odd years. We acknowledge his contribution and we thank God for him but it is time for him to let go. It’s time for him to move on to the next phase in life. All we ask is that he returns Calvary Church back to God!

234 comments:

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Anonymous said...

If thats is the case, then does it mean that our SP and SAP are "unauthorized" pastors if their extension of their 'employment' has not been ratified by the church members in a general assembly?

My sincere prayer will be when the church is cleansed, that all those who have left Calvary Church for whatever reasons will return back to Calvary Church. Amen!

Anonymous said...

I attached here the brave admission and repentance of Ted Haggard. No further elaboration as most of us were following the development then. It is by no mean a comparison in whatsoever ways with SP. For all of us in one way or another fell short of the glory of God. The moral behind this post is we all should be brave to admit, repent and be ready to be corrected. On the other hand, we must readily forgive and extend the love of God to those who has fallen.

The following is applicable especially to leaders of the church who have lost the effectiveness to lead the congregation due to the sin
deceitfulness.

[1] Repentence (Psalm 32:5)
[2]Turning back to Jesus (Luke 22:32) and
[3] Under the watchful eyes of a trusted "Barnabas" (Acts 15 and 2 Tim 4:11).

Ted Haggard's Letter to New Life Church
=======================================

To my New Life Church family:

I am so sorry. I am sorry for the disappointment, the betrayal, and the hurt. I am sorry for the horrible example I have set for you.

I have an overwhelming, all-consuming sadness in my heart for the pain that you and I and my family have experienced over the past few days. I am so sorry for the circumstances that have caused shame and embarrassment to all of you.

I asked that this note be read to you this morning so I could clarify my heart's condition to you. The last four days have been so difficult for me, my family and all of you, and I have further confused the situation with some of the things I've said during interviews with reporters who would catch me coming or going from my home.

But I alone am responsible for the confusion caused by my inconsistent statements. The fact is, I am guilty of sexual immorality, and I take responsibility for the entire problem.

I am a deceiver and a liar. There is a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life.

For extended periods of time, I would enjoy victory and rejoice in freedom. Then, from time to time, the dirt that I thought was gone would resurface, and I would find myself thinking thoughts and experiencing desires that were contrary to everything I believe and teach.

Through the years, I've sought assistance in a variety of ways, with none of them proving to be effective in me. Then, because of pride, I began deceiving those I love the most because I didn't want to hurt or disappoint them.

The public person I was wasn't a lie; it was just incomplete. When I stopped communicating about my problems, the darkness increased and finally dominated me. As a result, I did things that were contrary to everything I believe.

The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true, but enough of them are true that I have been appropriately and lovingly removed from ministry. Our church's overseers have required me to submit to the oversight of Dr. James Dobson, Pastor Jack Hayford, and Pastor Tommy Barnett. Those men will perform a thorough analysis of my mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical life. They will guide me through a program with the goal of healing and restoration for my life, my marriage, and my family.

I created this entire situation. The things that I did opened the door for additional allegations. But I am responsible; I alone need to be disciplined and corrected. An example must be set.

It is important that you know how much I love and appreciate my wife, Gayle. What I did should never reflect in a negative way on her relationship with me. She has been and continues to be incredible. The problem is not with her, my children or any of you. It was created 100 percent by me.

I have been permanently removed from the office of Senior Pastor of New Life Church. Until a new senior pastor is chosen, our Associate Senior Pastor Ross Parsley will assume all of the the responsibilities of the office. On the day he accepted this new role, he and his wife, Aimee, had a new baby boy. A new life in the midst of this circumstance - I consider the confluence of events to be prophetic. Please commit to join with Pastor Ross and the others in church leadership to make their service to you easy and without burden. They are fine leaders. You are blessed.

I appreciate your loving and forgiving nature, and I humbly ask you to do a few things.

1.) Please stay faithful to God through service and giving.

2.) Please forgive me. I am so embarrassed and ashamed. I caused this and I have no excuse. I am a sinner. I have fallen. I desperately need to be forgiven and healed.

3.) Please forgive my accuser. He is revealing the deception and sensuality that was in my life. Those sins, and others, need to be dealt with harshly. So, forgive him and, actually, thank God for him. I am trusting that his action will make me, my wife and family, and ultimately all of you, stronger. He didn't violate you; I did.

4.) Please stay faithful to each other. Perform your functions well. Encourage each other and rejoice in God's faithfulness. Our church body is a beautiful body, and like every family, our strength is tested and proven in the midst of adversity. Because of the negative publicity I've created with my foolishness, we can now demonstrate to the world how our sick and wounded can be healed, and how even disappointed and betrayed church bodies can prosper and rejoice.

Gayle and I need to be gone for a while. We will never return to a leadership role at New Life Church. In our hearts, we will always be members of this body. We love you as our family. I know this situation will put you to the test. I'm sorry I've created the test, but please rise to this challenge and demonstrate the incredible grace that is available to all of us.

Ted Haggard


Gayle Haggard's Letter to New Life Church
=========================================

Dear Women of New Life Church,

I am so sorry for the circumstances that have led me to write this letter to you today. I know your hearts are broken; mine is as well. Yet my hope rests steadfastly in the Lord who is forever faithful.

What I want you to know is that I love my husband, Ted Haggard, with all my heart. I am committed to him until death "do us part." We started this journey together and with the grace of God, we will finish together.

If I were standing before you today, I would not change one iota of what I have been teaching the women of our church. For those of you who have been concerned that my marriage was so perfect I could not possibly relate to the women who are facing great difficulties, know that this will never again be the case. My test has begun; watch me. I will try to prove myself faithful.

I love you all so much, especially you young women - you were my delight.

To all the church family of New Life Church - Ted and I are so proud of you. You are all we hoped you would be. In our minds, there is no greater church.

As you try to make sense of these past few days, know that Ted believes with all his heart and soul everything he has ever taught you, those things you are putting into practice. He is now the visible and public evidence that every man (woman and child) needs a Savior.

We are grateful for your prayers for our family.

I hold you forever in my heart.

Gayle Haggard

Link to Ted Haggard's Apology

Sorry about this lengthy post.

Anonymous said...

We should all pray immediately that SP, SAP, and the guilty Deacons (especially PW) will repent and seek God's forgiveness and the members' forgiveness. If after a certain predetermined period, repentance is not forthcoming, we (all concerned members including the TTG) should take necessary action. Even if the action involves police report or other drastic actions, we have no choice but to proceed. If we do nothing, it would mean we may be no better than PW. But let us pray first.

In His love,
J

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

COPYRIGHT THE KNOWLEDGE CONTENT OF THIS BLOG

It is amazing, as a Christian researcher, I have been searching the Internet for sound case study material on Church Governance but never really found such detailed analysis as I found in this Blog.

Here you can find a wealth of case study material on Church Governance on the following topics:
1. Church Organisation Structure
2. Church Constitution
3. Church Administration and Accounting
4. Church Staff Handbook
5. Conduct of Pastoral Staff
6. Truth, Transparency & Accountability

I strongly recommend that the Webmaster copyright all the knowledge content in this Blog to prevent plagiarism. This way anybody using material from this Blog must obtain written permission from the Webmaster before it can be published elsewhere. Furthermore, it will save guard the interest of Calvary Church and prevent people twisting the facts contained here for their own purposes.

I reiterate, this Blog has the potential to become the defector research resource for real life case study on Church Governance and the basis for the publication of 101 on Church Governance. All you mature and discerning bloggers could contribute towards this task as part of the Post Calvary Church gift to God’s Kingdom. I strong belief nobody can publish Best Practices Guideline on Church Governance without consulting this Blog. In fact, any Church Governance publication that does not refer to this Blog has not done sufficient research and such a book would probably be worthless. Please protect the knowledge content of this Blog immediately.

Dr. Paramsothy Vijayan
www.normangrubb.com

Anonymous said...

Aiyah..serious mann..staff manual also state so clearly and yet none of the staff is aware, until now only revealed!( retire at age 60 for pastors)

Now I begin to know why God allow Sp and SAP to be so quiet and still so steady and happy go lucky because as he preached this morning, with faith, you dont have to say anything. So, the more both keep quiet, the more worm will CRAWL out SLOWLY from the 'can'...

eeeeee.. i got goose bump now when imagining at the crawling worm..

Anonymous said...

Thank you Dr Vijayan for the suggestion. We definitely need to do that. I will do what I can to immediately initiate copyright protection on the material. I have a quick and easy way of doing it. However would need to consult a patent and copyright lawyer from the Methodist Church on a more proper and secure way.

Hong Meng

Anonymous said...

Deception in Calvary Church has been going on for years. Even deacons left the church because of this as among various other reasons - a host of them.

A Pastor of 30 plus years can be very skilful and manipulative in words and deeds. He can use psychology too.

I'm long enough in church to know. God also gives us dicernment.

Worst is when Pastor misuses God's word for personal reasons. Last two Sundays' messages were a typical example. The text used was Mark 2: 1-12 about Jesus healing a paralytic.

On Nov 2, he referred to verse 12 that other praised the Lord for the miracle, except the paralytic. He dared to misuse scripture by telling the congregation we need not give thanks to God for miracles and blessings we received. Let others do it. He took great pain to repeat twice to emphasize. This is a very dangerous teaching. We should all thank God for everything.

Today, he mentioned those having faith keep quiet. Those murmurred were faithless. Again, this another clear-cut misuse of God's word. This was quoted more to target certain group of people. He emphasized last week and this week. Experienced Pastors are good at this.

By the way, not mentioning in the bible does not mean the paralytic and the 4 friends did not say it. Even theologians would not conclude. But, I'm more certain the paralytic and the 4 friends would have praised and thanked the Lord.

Anonymous said...

SP complained despite Jesus' presence there were many empty seats and that congregation didn't bring people.

SP and BOD should evaluate why. Look at his preaching. Could he be the stumbling block? It cannot be all 10000 worshippers can't bring people since he claimed more than 10000. Many dared not.

Anonymous said...

What? Another deception again. SP is really good at this. Are there any other matters that we are not aware of? Looks like we have discovered more deception from SP.
About his sermon this morning regarding the many empty seats. Stupid of SP to even comment on that. Does he not know the cause of it? Is he pretending not to know or he is in a state of self denial?
Board of Deacons, what are you going to do about this issue? SP and his wife is suppose to retire already but they are still around. How come we church members do not know about this?
Shame on you Board of Deacons!!!
Board of Deacons should RESIGN IMMEDIATELY!!!!!

Anonymous said...

After reading all that is written in this blog, SP should be ashamed of himself. The Board of Deacons also should feel the same way.

For heaven's sake, Senior Pastor and Sister Petrina, both of you should retire. But before both of you do that, PLEASE RETURN THE MONEY THAT YOU HAVE TAKEN ILLEGALLY FROM THE CHURCH. IT IS GOD'S MONEY. REMEMBER YOU TAUGHT US NOT TO ROB GOD. YOU ARE ROBBING GOD IF YOU DO NOT RETURN THE MONEY THAT BELONGS TO THE CHURCH!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

I thank the Lord that Calvary Church is making history again! Even though for the wrong reasons!

The first A/G church in Malaysia to be courageous enough to charge its senior pastor (who was also, incidentally, the Gen. Supt. of A/G Malaysia for 26 historic years), its senior associate pastor, AND the board of deacons for fraud, corruption and spiritual abuse.

May the Lord be glorified even in this! May this be a landmark in local and international church history! May this also be the turning point for A/G Malaysia churches!

Anonymous said...

enough is enough. How long do we have to bear with the deception in Calvary Church?
Why must this happen?
A pastor who started well but sad to say he is not ending well.

Memalukan sahaja!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Enough is enough!

SP and SAP are also pastors, for all intent and purposes. They are not above the rules - and also the laws - and must abide by the CC handbook and retire at age 60.

What's the use of having a handbook if the policies, guidelines, etc are not adhered to. Might as well throw it away.

We concerned Calvarites must rise to the occasion and demand the immediate resignation of both SP and SAP.

The church handbook is very clear. Both SP and SAP should have retired at 60. Since the CC membership has never approved or ratified the extension of their contracts beyond 60, their position as SP and SAP is null and void, or in simple layman's term, "illegal".

Patrick, you have misled members with your answer at the EGM, and you should have the dignity and honour to resign too.

Enough is enough! We concerned Calvarites should arise and demand the resignaion of SP and SAP.

Anonymous said...

Yes, you are right - very memalukan. I just wonder what was in SP's mind when he told that poor lady that she can continue to work in church for less than half pay. Then come month end, he happily pocket the full pay for himself. Somemore got galls to ask Missions dept to give him a yearly fee of RM200k for travelling. Somemore, Bro. Edward said that SP wants to build a seed fund of RM1 million before he retires. Now the seed fund only got RM100k. So he must korek another RM900k before he leaves.

He thinks that poor lady is not worth her last pay becoz she is "old". What about his wife who is earning more pay and is also more old. Worst of all, his wife is not even doing anything worth while for the pay she gets. I cannot understand why she needs to be like a police woman sitting in all the services when the CW children got not enough teachers. So the church pay her 5 figure salary to sit there and show off her designer clothes. Tak masuk akal betul.

Anonymous said...

Oi simpleman, don't give them great ideas. They are capable of using your advise and "throw away" that Handbook. For all you know, they will tell us there is no such Handbook anymore. They have thrown it away long ago.

Anonymous said...

Just to add on to comments by Angry and Deceived.

The empty seats that SP referred to this morning were once filled, but the worshipers have since emptied them to go to another church, or stay home on Sundays which is indeed very sad.

SP is a great actor. He knows but he ACTS as if he does not know.

He's very smart you know, but for the wrong reason. He can even twist Scriptures for his own ends.

Anonymous said...

yes, SP's message this morning was really quite ridiculous. He was being nothing short of a proud,arrogant and self righteous man since he kept saying he is living in the 4th dimension while us church members are living in the 3rd dimension..meaning to say that we don't have a personal relationship with God and only he has. And to proclaim himself as a 'man of God' is self praise. Remember the phrase 'self praise is no praise'. He is ridiculing himself.
And yes, he and his wife should also be subject to the handbook. why should they be above it? And I agree, Patrick Wong..you are a liar. I guess it could be because you got some side benefits from SP since your children were given scholarships by the church? Is that why you are so 'loyal'?

Anonymous said...

Dear "thrown away long ago"

Wait first! Since we have a copy, we can reprint and distribute to members and the BOD.

SP and SAP may have thrown away their copies, and maybe they have told the APs and other staff to follow suit. Who knows, SP may have also told BOD to throw their copies away, and that's why PW was blurred about the retirement age.

Hey, the hard evidence is already in our hands. I may be simpleman but I am not stupid, you know. I only pretend to be stupid but I'm smart, unlike some who are stupid but pretend to be smart. Haven't you read Hamlet? He pretended to be deranged but he was only pretending.

Anonymous said...

Excuse me Simpleman. What's this Hamlet you're taking about?

I'm not very smart so better not pretend to be very smart. Must admit it, otherwise won't learn anything.

So Simpleman, tell me what's Hamlet.

Anonymous said...

Nene..hamlet is the baby of a ham. u know, piglet is baby of pig. haha,ok..I'm just joking, trying to lighten the mood here. simpleman is really quite smart actually, better don't play play with him.
eh..what if the BOD suddenly create a non-existent contract which shows that SP and SAP have had their contracts extended ar. u know la, these deacons have a bad habit of creating something out of nothing...that's their specialty mah.

Anonymous said...

Hi NeNe,

Hamlet is a play written by William Shakespeare. It's a tragedy about the Prince of Denmark. Read it and you will understand characters better.

BTW, Hamlet's famous quote is "to be or not to be". Good night!

Anonymous said...

Hey nene, stop harassing simpleman. You have not read Shakespeare meh? But actually I also abit silly like you, have not read Hamlet. Only read King Lear & Romeo & Juliet. Anyway, English Literature on another day please. We need to stay focused here on SP & SAP retirement.

Thanks guys & gals, luv ya.

Anonymous said...

Hi ah ji ah cho,

Better not give wrong info. Don't pretend to be vey smart when you are not very smart, you know, like some people who not only pretend to be very smart but also pretend to be very spiritual, when in both cases they are not, like the man who talked to us this morning.

Anonymous said...

ah beng no.2..yea,know wat u mean. can't help me la,hence my name. haha..but i will try my best not to pretend to be smart anymore coz i dont wanna end up like the person quacking and chirping this morning!

Anonymous said...

Hi ah ji ah cho,

The TTG is also very smart. You think BOD can create non-existent contracts to show SP and SAP have had their contracts extended, and get away with it. Not so easy.

I watch alot of CSI (New York, Miami, Vegas and even Malaysia - you know Malaysia boleh). We can do all kinds of test to prove the contracts are fakes.

TTG is also not stupid you know.

Anonymous said...

Even Christian leaders said SP has no friends. He does not fellowship much with local leaders but rubs shoulder with foreign leaders for positions.

He does not fellowship with Calvarites. He claims he is a shy man. It's hard to believe when we Christians are supposed to be transformed by Christ.

Such character can be dangerous. You do not know what he thinks.From his preaching, his ways put people down. He also put down other churches and Pastors. He can say things like Calvary Church pride herself with converted growth. He was subtlely saying other churches grow because of transferred growth. The reason he refused to accept is that Calvarites left for other churches because of him.

Anonymous said...

I tell you, PW will make sure there is a contract "magic out" from no where one. Know why? Because his wife, Pastor Sxxxxxx Wxxx, is also non-qualified from Bible School Pastor that SP simply employ as asst. pastor for our cc.

She also not getting younger. Maybe also retirment age already (maybe only ah this one.) If like this, his wife also soon got no job or must work for less than half pay. You think he won't do magic tonite?

Our church got so many non-qualified from Bible School pastors, no wonder so many people simply quote Bible because no body really teach us the true meaning of the Bible. Please God, you must help us.

Anonymous said...

okla,ah beng no.2...I trust the TTG are smart ppl,and i support u guys fully!

Anonymous said...

Yea lah! Even claiming CC is a mountainhead church is like 'lording over other churches' Jesus forbids such lording over because it hurts the body of Christ.

Anonymous said...

Jokes aside, whoever is holding the CC staff handbook, better not lose it as it's hard evidence against SP and SAP on their retirement age.

Better still, make some spare copies and keep elsewhere. You know, these days nobody and nothing is safe as anything can disappear.

Anonymous said...

ah beng no.2 is rite...store the original in the safe and pass photocopies of the handbook to all d TTG members!!
by da way, check out our visitors count...touch 40,000 oredi...dont play play!

Anonymous said...

Yah meh? Let us see...

SK? Actually, he got graduate from Bible School or not? Got Masters in Education but Bible school training, got meh?

RayY? He was asst pastor for so many years with out bible school training first. His wife is SP's faithful personal secretary for "ancient" no of years lo. No wonder got special previledge - must ampu his secretary this SP.

All his children and in-laws got pastor title or earning pastor salary but got no Bible School training.

Anonymous said...

Please take note.

Its very likely that Pui Ling and/or Pas. SK is printing all these blogs and comments for SP's reading every morning before he reads the local newspaper.

So, be careful what you write.

Anonymous said...

Dear no need bible school, u dunno meh...no need bible school to become pastor or earn pastor salary in CC. very easy only,u only need to either polish sp shoes or marry a guneratnam. easy peasy.i'm serious.

Anonymous said...

Dear easy peasy,

Better don't give idea to the youth. Otherwise they also want to wait and marry the grandchildren and be made pastors and draw pastors' salaries.

Anonymous said...

It's so distressing. Already we have to live with _____supremacy in this country and now in CC also got pastor supremacy.

How come pastors' retirement age is 60 while for other church staff it's 55. You mean, pastors are stronger and healthier to work after 55 till 60, and other staff are too weak, sickly and senile to work after 55.

To make matter worse, now SP and SAP can work after 60. They are indeed more equal than others. They remind me of Napolean and his crony pigs in Animal Farm who are more equal than the rest. This is called INEQUALITY or DISCRIMINATION.

In my company, retirement age is 55 for everyone, including CEO and management staff. This is called EQUALITY.

Anonymous said...

Good thing I left full-time service in CC before I hit 55, otherwise also have to cut pay by half. Then betul-betul tak cukup makan.

In that case, I would be faithless and would start to murmur like what SP preached on Sunday.

I wonder whether Pastor TO also got his pay cut by half after contract extended.

Anonymous said...

Wow, in church also got cronyism, favoritism and now discrimination.

I thot all these only exist in the dog-eat-dog secular world.

I'm very sad that SP can allow such practices. SP, how to fill up the empty seats in church when you allow these unjust practices to go on.

To matter worse, you yourself perpetuated it, and the sickening part is you're a BENEFICIARY.

Anonymous said...

I agree totally with you, anti-cronyism.

The church is called to be a Lighthouse for God but with all the darkness inside CC, how to be a Lighthouse for God.

SP, when people don't see the light in CC, they don't come to church, and thus the seats will continue to be empty.

How do you expect us believers to invite our friends to church when they see so much darkness.

This is a sad state of affair. How to be a fountainhead church? It's all an illusion, one big illusion, SP.

We better not kid ourselves. We must wake up and seek God's forgivessness before His wrath falls on us.

BOD, I'm lost for words. You see so much darkness and yet you non-chalantly say "let God be God".

I pray that God will open your eyes so that you will see the light in the midst of all the darkness around us.

We can't let this go on. Either you do something about it or you step down with whatever honour and dignity left.

Anonymous said...

Aiyoo, why not TT members just initiate another signing of petition to require SP & BOD to resign or step down. We will see whether the majority in CC support that or not. No point keep arguing.

Anonymous said...

Pastor RY have been taking night classes for several years ever since he was promoted to Assistant Pastor some years ago. At lease he makes effort to get himself qualified. Coming this 2. Dec. 2008, RY is graduating from BCM with a Diploma of Theology. At last RY can now hold his head up high, unlike those UNQUALIFIED APs of Calvary Church who depend on their family status and/or polishing shoes status!

When SP first promoted RY to the position of Assistant Pastor many years ago, I sensed that SP had something something up his sleeves! Sure enough, I was correct....the next year his foo-mah-yeh (son-in-law of king) was also promoted to Assistant Pastor! SP is really, really shrewd & calculating! He should actually go into politics! (as suggested by someone earlier on the blog)

Anonymous said...

Some people said, this blog is christian blog, must talk all good dignify things; the truth is without this blog, many still in the dark, cheated, betrayed..etc.

with this blog, SP began to preach and hit some of the things discussed here, such as what was preached last 2 sunday, 2nd service, main service, and many other previous services, what's the motive? you know, i know!

with this blog, some felt some guilty to read? why? this people dare not to know the truth, because, truth really hurt! its a fact. Therefore, may I appeal to those who is afraid to know the truth, please read the main post, if you still more courages, then read the comments.

with this blog, hopefully, the young people will learn correctly about governance, transparency, accountability in all aspects. This is the best christian value to start with.

Anonymous said...

"Ignore integrity at your peril" by Aniza Damis NST 9/11/08 page 22

She started by asking, "How often do you hear a top leader say, 'Integrity applies to me too'?" The article was on the speech given by Raja Nazrin Shah at the National Integrity Convention. I just want to draw your attention to one quote, " Integrity would cease to exist not only through the wrongful actions of the ruler or top leadership, but also when those responsible for checking-and-balancing the leaders do not possess the strength to correct wrongs."

Each and every member of the BOD has that responsibility. Ignorance is not a defense. If you don't know, find out. The Constitution gives you a lot of powers, use it. Simply following the opinion or decisions of older deacons is not a valid excuse. Each person must know his/her authority and responsibility as a BOD member. Otherwise what are you there for?

hong meng

Anonymous said...

Why is everyone blogging and asking the BOD to read and take note.

It is no use. Don't u know meh that they do not read. if they do they dare not do anything as that wud be telling that they are reading the blog. I suppose they prefer to tell a white lie "I don't read the blog"

I suppose a letter to the BOD could be done!! (but thenthey would just ack. it).

Real susah lah!

Anonymous said...

Hello long time member, cannot blame you becoz it happened so long ago. His foo-mah-yeh was employed straight as the ASSOCIATE PASTOR (next to PO, SK, TO & RicY)not Assistant Pastor. He got a FAST PASS up unlike others must slowly climb up.

Hello confused, we all also confused at the Pastors & BOD's behaviour - Tak nak tau, tak nak peduli, worst of all TAK TAU MALU.
Never mind, let us continue to blog even though they don't want to read. One day, maybe their office collegue or worst still their boss may ask them, then they will be forced to read.

Maybe this is what is happening so that we can know more about them. You see, this CT, very slowly give one piece by one piece, the news to us. So by the time next AGM, we would know so much true story about them, then we will be wiser, to know if we should vote for them again to the new BOD.

Anonymous said...

Well, I know the son of one of the deacons does read the blog, not sure how often but have seen his name as he has commented before in the earlier articles. Surely he will update his dad on this as he is quite a logical and level headed young man.

Anonymous said...

Sorry to disappoint you "obvious". I heard that he got a shelling from his dad. His Deacon dad prefers to live in ignorance - Ignorance is bliss. "What I don't know, I don't need to care" attitude. That's what they are all adopting to do. "Dunno, dun care".

I heard that all leaders, all church staff and good members should not read this blog because it is sinful. So they who are supposed to be living in the Dr Cho's, "Fourth Dimension" don't read blogs especially this one. Only people like us, living in the third dimension are so sinful, to read to blog. Get it!

Anonymous said...

Dear Long-Time Member,

Good for Pastor RY. At least he is diligent enough to take night classes to complete his BCM Diploma.

By the way, SP planned very far ahead. He promoted RY to Asst Pastor so that when he promoted foo-mah-yeh (son-in-law of king), he can tell people who question him that RY is the precedent. You know, RY is always the fall guy. Poor Pastor Ray.

This is called long-term planning. So watch out for his long-term planning for his children. Before you know it, they may be SP and SAP too.

He's a strategist for the wrong purpose. He's placing calling upon his children and foo-mah-yeh (son-in-law of king), not God anymore.

Anonymous said...

Dear Retired Ex-staff who was offered half pay.

I am so sorry that you have to experience such a mistreatment from a church office. Am Sure that when you started working in church many many years ago, you thought that it was the best place to work in. It should have been actually but it was not for you.

Today, your case is heard or rather read by many many people not only in our country but also in many other countries. Your case will be an example and a deterant for any other pastors and church human resource personnel, to be more compassionate to God's workers. God will repay you for what our church has deprived you of - dignity more than money, I feel. Good for you to have chosen to leave with dignity, although maybe poorer in your pocket.

Bros & Sis reading, let us join our hearts to pray for this dear sister who has faithfully served in our Father's house for so many years. We pray that God will show her that He has not forgotten her - Amen.

Anonymous said...

How can preacher and church be like that one. Cheating staffs and rule like a dictator. Where is Christ Love... how to listen to them when they don't walk the talk. Non christain friend ask why you christian like that one , they thoght we are holy and sincere type but now very disappointed.

Anonymous said...

Poor Pastor RY. It's terrible to be 'used' by SP, to further his evil plans to promote his children to positions of leadership, thru breaking all the rules in the book.

Let's have a moment's silence, to mourn RY's unenviable position of being 'fall guy' of Calvary Church...!

Anonymous said...

Pastor Raymond is NOT the only one to be used by SP for his and his family's personal interest. Pastor Steven has to clean up Pastor Peter's mess. Pastor Timothy had to conduct witch hunts. (And Pastor Peter may get in trouble with the law doing SP's bidding.) While I don't condone apathy on (most of) the pastors' part, I understand how weak we are in the flesh. I pray that they are genuinely seeking God's will on what to do.

SP & SAP & family and deacons (except 1) are sinning against God because of money, power, pride, fear etc. Well, God may use these same things to bring them to repentance. The recent Carnival brought in half the funds that the previous one did. The two dinners had disastrous turnout.

The Guneratnam name doesn't command much respect; and when CCC becomes a white elephant Tan Sri's going to be the laughing stock. But the saddest thing is this: the Guneratnams and the deacons (but 1) refuse to acknowledge how patient God is with them. Well, time may be running out for them!

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the update, third dimension. Was not aware of that. I guess while the deacon's son is quite level headed and logival, his deacon father certainly isn't. What a disappointment these deacons are.

Anonymous said...

Hello Pewsitter
referring to your comment, here is the add-on; Dr Peter Wagner defines the religious spirit as "an agent of Satan assigned to prevent change and maintain the status quo by using religious devices." The religious spirit seeks to distort a genuine move of God through deception, control and manipulation.

This is only part of his statement, but enough for us to know that how true this is how, our SP chose to be! sigh..

Anonymous said...

It pains my heart to see good and faithful pastors like PO, SK, & TO, RYun, & RYong becoming SP & SAP's lackeys, scapegoats and puppets-on-the-SP-string! What hold does he have on them? Why are they so blinded to his obvious indiscretions & corruption? Is it their 5-figure salaries that have caused them to compromise their spiritual values and distorted their biblical understanding of right & wrong?

How can one man, SP, & one woman, SAP, have such a demonic hold on their lives? Are they practising witchcraft? I have heard that SP & SAP keep idols and New Age objects in their mansion as well as in SP's grand corporate-style office.

Anonymous said...

It was reported in the press that our PM will hand over power in March 2009.

I wonder if the same thing would happen to Calvary Church.

Anonymous said...

Last Sunday's message, SP said that ppl who live in the Fourth Dimension live by faith. Therefore, there is no need to talk like the paralytic man - "He said nothing". In the1st place, the Bible did not say that the man said nothing. He is so good as twisting and reading into the Scriptures. Anyway my observation as to why he emphasized on say nothing.

SP & SAP, they said nothing :-
-when his towel dropped in Lake Club in front of ladies.
-when someone saw him in Sun Complex.
-when he took RM200k from the Missions Fund.
-when his children do not need to follow proper work ethics like others.
-when he went for "Missions Trips".
-when his wife lost her handbag full of cash for spending.
-when his whole family went to USA for holiday.
-when his wife registered the Church Bookshop in her own personal name - GFF.
-when he collected money for earthquake victims in Indonesia but put in his own account instead.

You see, they have to say nothing otherwise everyone will know their secret. They will continue to say nothing, so that we will all get tired and forget about it like all those times before.

Sorry SP & SAP, you may choose to say nothing because you claim to have alot of faith but we who have "no faith" in you but plenty of faith in God, will say alot of things.

Anonymous said...

Dear He Said Nothing,

Looks like you got alot to say!!

I heard that some church personnel went to Switzerland twice this year, close to both the AGM and EGM events. Is that true?

I also heard that some church personnel has more than one bank account overseas. Is that true?

We truly are an international church. Why would one have bank accounts overseas?

Is our church doing international business or trading.

Anonymous said...

Hi Bewitched, agreed. I am sure they are struggling as much as some of us church members. The TRUTH is urging yet PEACE is distanced. The longer they wait, the harder it would be. Dear APs, make your stand now. Check out what happen to Teg Haggard now.

God wants obedience to TRUTH not to man. I am sure SP & SAP are hanging on fearful of the consequence. Not sure if they have the confidence and faith in God that they will be forgiven when they take the route of absolute repentance. May our loving God shows them they the way. May we be gracious to embrace them in restoration.

Anonymous said...

Hello Zachariah, I got alot to say becoz I was so bored listening to SP last Sunday and then not nice to sleep in front of him, so I write what came to mind my mind. At least others think I am so good copying sermon notes. I am only quoting what I heard and what I read about them but since they say nothing I take it as truth. Who would say nothing if they were innocent.

Sorry I cannot answer those questions. My information source not so powerful yet. Maybe someone else can confirm that. But then we are told to say nothing, so maybe we won't get answers too becoz we all want to be living in the fourth dimension.

Anonymous said...

Hi Zachariah,

When SP preached that those who have faith keep quiet whilst the faithless murmured, he forgot someone else (it's OK, SP is getting older since he's way past 60 & he should be put to pasture ......... oops, I mean retired).

The faithful needs to speak up & speak up loud & clear as God hates liars but loves a truthful person.

When you know the truth but keeps quiet, it is as good as lying. So SP & BOD (at the EGM) were lying (& not keeping quiet or saying nothing) when PW tells half-truth about no retirement age for SP in the CC Constitution when all of them knew that it is actually provided for in the Staff Handbook.

Being one of the faithfuls at CC, I cannot keep quiet or say nothing (else I'll be as good as a liar like SP & BOD) as regards your questions.

I was told that SP went twice to Switzerland (once with JG).

I heard that SP admitted that he has overseas bank account(s).

I guess SP need to have overseas bank account(s) as he has overseas business mah.

Isn't CIM, his personal ministry, doing business overseas meh? After all SP did spend close to RM 500,000 of CC's funds on his overseas conferences & meetings over the last 5 years, didn't he uh?

Hope I have answered all your 4 questions, Zachariah. You may not be satisfied with the answers but at least you now have them unlike at CC's AGMs & EGMs when you can ask questions but they don't answer you or else give you half-truths.

Hmm .... talking of SP's overseas bank accounts. Zachariah, why is it that when overseas pastors come to CC, we collect a love offering for them &/or their ministry but I don't see this reciprocated when SP goes overseas especially the last 6 years? Could it be that such offerings have been banked into SP's overseas bank accounts?

Wah! Like that also can ah? Travelling expenses paid by CC but collections "sendiri gasak". Mana boleh? Ini tak adil oh. O Tuhan, tolong lah kita "kau tim" penipu ini.

Anonymous said...

Thank you One Of The Faithfuls for answering my questions.

Anonymous said...

Dear "one of the faithfuls",

Yes, you're dead right. When overseas pastors come to CC, we collect love offerings for them and or their ministries but we don't "see" this reciprocated when SP goes overseas.

To my mind, there are only 2 POSSIBILITIES:

No. 1 : Oversea churches or Christian organisations are VERY STINGY and never give a single sen to SP for his "faithful" preaching.

No. 2 : Oversea churches or Christian organisations are VERY GENEROUS and give many USDs to SP for his "faithful" preaching.

If possibility No. 1 is true, then nothing to tell about. Period.

On the other hand, if possibility No. 2 is true, then where is the USDs given to SP???

Could it be that such offerings have been banked into SP's overseas bank accounts?

SP, as a man of God who claims to live in the 4th dimension, please come clean on this. You can hide from us but with God, you definitely can't.

If possibility No. 2 is true, then it explains very clearly why you always say that "we are a church and we don't operate like the corporate world".

Sure, because there's so much to hide and hence you are dead against TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY and GOOD GOVERNANCE.

SP, may our Good Lord help you to make the right choices in life. We still love you, although admittedly it's a daily struggle for me to do so, but we definitely cannot condone your actions. This is what TTG stands for.

Anonymous said...

Yes, I'm in total agreement with you Simpleman.

I also pray that God will help SP to make the right choices in life.

Yes, I still love SP, and like you Simpleman, I also struggle daily to love him. At times I don't feel like it, but then I ask God to pour His love in my heart once again so that I can love him.

He's still my brother, although I've heard that he doesn't treat concerned Calvarites like me as his brothers and sisters.

Why makes me think so? I've been kept informed that in a devotion not long ago he questioned whether the God that TTG supporters pray to is the same God that he prays to.

Maybe he thinks we live in the 3rd dimension but he lives in the 4th, that's why he thinks the God he prays to is not the same God that we pray to. May God have mercy on him for harbouring such thought. As a shepherd, he must not even think so!

I've always look up to him as my pastor all these 26 years in CC, but he has indeed changed in recent years, or was it only recently?

SP, Simpleman is right. We definitely cannot condone your actions, although we choose to love you despite your shortcomings. However, you must repent and draw nearer to God with all sincerity.

That's why I'm still in full support of TTG. It's the RIGHT thing to do. And I'm at peace with God, despite all the scriptures thrown at us concerned Calvarites by people who supposedly condone your actions and who twist the Word of God to justify your actions. I also pray for them my brothers and sisters, just as I continue to pray for you SP all this while.

SP, please do the right thing, and move on.

Anonymous said...

Thank you Uncle Winslow for pouring out your sincere thoughts.

As human as you are, at times I also find it a struggle too to love SP but I try to daily. He's still my brother and I must see him as one, although I agree with you Simpleman that I hate his actions and attitudes.

SP, if you are reading this blog in whatever form - either Pui Leng prints every posting and comment for you to read, or Pastor Stephen briefs you on it - I appeal to you, listen to God and do the right thing. I know it's rude for a sheep to preach to his shepherd but I need to get this message to you - PLEASE DO THE RIGHT THING!

Anonymous said...

I wish to dedicate this song "I've got to get a message to you", popularised by te Bee Gees, to SP

The preacher talked to me and he smiled,
Said, come and walk with me, come and walk one more mile.
Now for once in your life youre alone,
But you aint got a dime, theres no time for the phone.

Ive just got to get a message to you, hold on, hold on.
One more hour and my life will be through, hold on, hold on.

I told him Im in no hurry,
But if I broke her heart, wont you tell her Im sorry.
And for once in my life Im alone,
And Ive got to let her know just in time before I go.

Ive just go to get a message to you, hold on, hold on.
One more hour and my life will be through, hold on, hold on.

Well I laughed but that didnt hurt,
And its only her love that keeps me wearing this dirt.
Now Im crying but deep down inside,
Well I did it to him, now its my turn to die.

Ive just got to get a message to you, hold on, hold on.
One more hour and my life will be through, hold on, hold on.

----- song ends here -----

Yes, SP, Im crying but deep down inside,
Ive just got to get a message to you, hold on, hold on.

SP, hold on to the TRUTH OF GOD!

Anonymous said...

Dear Hong Meng,
You quote,

" Integrity would cease to exist not only through the wrongful actions of the ruler or top leadership, but also when those responsible for checking-and-balancing the leaders do not possess the strength to correct wrongs."

The BOD are not doing their job, that is why God raise the TTG. Now the TTG must carry that responsibility.

TTG make sure you do a good job.
If not you will also loose your integrity.

Anonymous said...

Hi Winslow,

I feel very sad that my Senior Pastor questions if I pray to the same God as him. I have no other pastor/s except those in CC. CC is my 1st church (since I was a teenager) and I am still coming faithfully each Sunday unless I am overseas. (although some of you others have visited other churches recently)

If I am deemed as praying to another god, then I must question my pastor/s, which god they have introduced me to and which god they have taught me to pray to all these years. I sincerely thought that they (my pastors) and I, have the same God. To hear that my pastor questioned who my God is, is very saddening to me.

It's like one day, my daughters quarrel and fight over my money and then one of them say to the other, "I don't know if you and I have the same parents!" I am wondering now, what would I say to the one who questioned the other about her identity and birthright.

SP and APs and BOD, like it or not, we are of the same Heavenly Father and you cannot question that. You may wish that the TTG dissappear from your sight but you cannot pose a question like this to the church staff.

No wonder a church staff recently "told me off" for participating in this blog. This is one person I lease expected such words from - we were studying in the Bible College at the same time.

karen

Anonymous said...

Sorry the word in the last sentence should be "least expected". Sign of getting old(er).

Anonymous said...

Can someone out there comfirm this?

I heard that Pas. SK and his sister (real one) and Pas. DS visited SIB last Saturday for their evening service. I cannot believe this. Why should our Pastors go visit another church. So take this as pure rumour unless someone out there can confirm because they saw them. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Hi Karen,

Kindly be assured that as Christians we all pray to the same god until & unless we choose to worship "mammon" since our good Lord stated that we cannot worship both God & "mammon".

My observation tells me that the TTG members have chosen God, as for SP, he seems to have chosen "mammon" ('cos he chose not to return the RM 1.9m tainted funds & SP also was negotiating with the BOD before the EGM that he gets to keep RM 0.8m of the balance of RM 1.4m) - no wonder SP says that TTG are not praying to the same God as him.

SP, SAP, APs & BOD are all obviously not aware that God allows all of us to have differences in opinion. Though both sides may pray to Him, He obviously cannot acede to both sides' requests. It is said that in such a situation, God will always be on the side of Truth.

Likewise, Karen, when your daughters quarrel, I am sure that you will be on the side of the Truth.

APs & BOD, in reading, kindly pray & use your godly wisdom to discern who is telling the Truth - SP or TTG. Then do the RIGHT thing - stand up for God & for Truth.

If you have erred, it's OK 'cos you are only human. I am sure that God will forgive you if you confess your mistake(s) to Him & repent; likewise I am sure that the TTG will forgive you too.

If you still choose to ignore God & follow SP blindly, 'cos you fear the man of God more than you fear God, then may God have mercy on you when you stand before Him on that day.

Meanwhile, be assured that I am upholding all of you (including SP & SAP) in prayer that you will wise up & wake up to do the RIGHT thing, plus that God will have mercy on you & forgive you your mistake(s) just as the TTG will forgive you.

Anonymous said...

The 4th dimension is the Spirit Realm.

We do have spiritual vision don’t we?
We also have spiritual hearing.
We have spiritual discernment.
We have spiritual taste (We can partake of spiritual food.)
We have spiritual feelings.

"Think on those things which are above.”
“Lay your treasures up in heaven, not on earth.”

Don’t lay up your treasures in this 3 dimensional realm,(earth)
Lay up your treasures in that 4th dimensional realm – and even higher.
We simply must let go of our ego-based way of life and return to God-centeredness.

gatheringtruth.com/4th dimension.

Please check the above to understand the 4th dimension and ask the following questions:

1.Is SP GOD-centered?
2.Is SP laying treasures on earth or heaven?
3.If SP is in the 4th dimension,
why is SP transfering so much money to CIM?
4.Why does SP buying so many properties on earth?
5.Why does SP need to wear such expensive clothes (RM10K per suit)?
6.Why SP wear all the branded shoes?

Do I want to be in this 4th dimension?
Is this the 4th dimension that God wants us to be?
Is this God's dimension?

If being in the 4th dimension, SP can siphon so much money, imagine if SP in the 5th dimension.

Hundred millions will be gone!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Alamak, if really got 5th dimension, susah all of us.

Living in 3rd dimension already big struggle, how to go 5th dimension. It's like driving 5th gear all the time.

SP must investigate this 5th dimension and enlighten us on how to live in that realm. And do be kind to us poor souls still living in 3rd dimension. You, we're still driving on 3rd gear, like man simple housewives. No offence please!

Anonymous said...

well, i just hope that despite what is going on with the church, we will all continue to support the youths as i personally know that they aren't getting any support from the church either.

they've to work with very tight budgets all the time without any funding from the church. for youth camp to be gone for 2 years in a row and for it to come up again this year, i'm sure they put a lot of effort in fighting for it (thats what i heard).

please do not let the youth suffer because of all the 'happenings' that is going on..

Anonymous said...

Dear Question Time?

Pas. SK and his sister (real one) and Pas. DS visited SIB last Saturday for their evening service. Sure or not?

If it's true, it must be the joke of the year. Even SP's own APs and staff also need spiritual food elsewhere as food given in CC when SP is preaching is bad for consumption, I mean spiritually speaking.

Maybe, the APs and the sister concerned also cannot tahan 4th dimension living preached by SP, and hence need to go for the real stuff.

My goodness me! If the pastors of SIB know of their secret visit, CC, or to be more precise SP himself, will be the laughing stork of the local Christian fraternity.

Anonymous said...

Hi broken, actually…what I think happened with the youth camp is more like because SP’s beloved daughter took over the youth ministry this year, they’re now allowed to hv back the youth camps. The previous youth pastor and coordinator tried so hard to get approval from SP to have youth camps last year and the year before,but they were denied it but all Pam needs to do is to ask her daddy to allow them to have the youth camp and voila! That’s what I heard la and looks to be that way. She is after all daddy’s little girl wat.

Anonymous said...

I was informed about it too though I cant say for sure since I did not attend SIB. Otherwise you will be getting a call from Foong Ling.

Probably they went to look for their lost sheep from CC. I guess they will be attending DUMC and FGA soon.

I heard from so many that she has been calling so many Calvarites.

She called me too a few months ago asking how come she didnt see me in CC. Just because I was not attending CC for two weeks, she thought I have left the church. Actually, I was in DP one Sunday and the other I followed my children to another church.

I asked why she called and she said she was concerned about our welfare. Nonsense. I have been attending CC for more than 3 decades and I have never got a call from church if I was absent from CC itself for two Sundays. Why now?

I asked her if I were absent for a couple of months, would my voting membership be taken away. She said YES without any hesitation!!!

Somehow I got the feeling that her salary is based on a base salary plus commission. The commission is the more voting members she kicked out, the more commission she get. She might even get a bonus if the voting member is also a TTG member.

What has our church become of now?

Anonymous said...

Dear Broken,

Sure, we will support the youth. I rejoice with you all for "getting back" the youth camp. I know the camp means a lot to you, as my daughter was really thrilled when she broke the good news to my wife and I last Sunday.

As my daughter always says, Jesus Rocks man. Yes, Jesus is also cool to the youth because He loves you all! He's your Good Shepherd.

Altho' I'm not very rich materially, I can still afford to sponsor half camp fee for one or two youth. Only deserving cases are eligible, and I mean it. Go ask Aunty Karen and she will give you my contact no. Call me.

Blessings,
Simpleman

Anonymous said...

Before checking on whether SK went, wanted to comment that they might be going to see how many calvarites are there?

But of course this is thinking the worst of him, God forbid.

By the way, i urge all our fellow Pro-Accountability believers to be careful as to not to be drawn into the trap of it becoming a 'reflex' to think the worse of SP and co.

Broken,

i heard that if the youth camp doesn't well this year, they will scrap youth camps from this year on. They (she?) are (is) putting so much burden on the shoulders of the youths, treating them like adults when it comes to work.

but surely God will reward their faith.




A lot of neutral church goers will naturally say that the TTG is picking on 'small issues' especially in 'allowing' SP/SAP to serve on past 60 years. What they don't realise is how SP/SAP's staff gets treated in work.

Have you not noticed how bitter, disgruntled, and joyLESS the staff of Calvary Church are? This is excluding those close to the people of power of course (JG, PG , SP , SAP, CL the whole shabang!)


I wish people would stop thinking that the issues brought up by TTG are trivial.

Anonymous said...

sis Karen,don’t be discourage that the church staff are reprimanding ppl for blogging, their bread n butter is from the church and so, they automatically hv to support their bosses and even wrong becomes right to them. Many of them will have a hard time looking for an outside job that pays as well as what they are earning in CC, so they need to be loyal to SP,otherwise, it’s out they go. Some of these staff think they are being very righteous and wise by ‘advising’ or ‘scolding’ ppl for blogging online but truth be told,many of these staff’s behaviour are even worse than non-christians – gossiping, backbiting, lying, stealing…...the whole works. Of course not ALL the staff are like that, some are actually quite nice and godly but I wud hv to say a big bunch of the rest are all hypocrites.

Anonymous said...

How to be in 4th dimension and not encouraging spiritual growth on the youth?

4th dimension is a spiritual realm.
youth camp is a time of renewal and refreshing our spiritual life.

Why must the youth 'fight' for youth camp??????

4th dimension is GOD-CENTERED

Anonymous said...

Hi Zachariah,

You mean FL told you that she was concerned about your welfare. My FOOT, and mind you, it's in cap.

Sorry for the strong language, but I normally don't speak or write like this but I really cannot stomach all these hypocrisies, started with SP and SAP, then spread to APs, then to Asst Pastors and ministerial staff, and now spreading like cancer to the rest of the staff.

I'm really ashamed of all this. FL, don't talk with forked tongue as it's not right. Remember how SP treated you and Mike. It's not worth doing it for SP for he's only making use of you.

Anonymous said...

Who are the camp speakers????????

That was the 1st question my daughter asked last Saturday. But no reply.

No camp speakers stated in the annoucement.

Let's pray that it is not SP,SAP or any of the pastors.
I will not register my children if the camp speakers' name are not mention.

I hope they are not keeping quiet and say that they are in the 4th dimension

Anonymous said...

Proverbs 28:1 (AMP): The wicked flee when no man pursues them, but the (uncompromisingly) righteous are bold as a lion.

This verse from Proverbs tells us that those who are righteous, and who do not compromise, will be as "bold as a lion" in their position, while those who are wicked will back down and flee. The Bible tells us that those who despise the commandments of God and do works of unrighteousness will ultimately reap what they sow and much sorrow will come to them. God speaks through the scriptures and tells us that terror and fear are things we reap when we sin and disobey Him. When we obey Him, we can walk in faith and courage.

Anonymous said...

So true, if camp speakers are SP,SAP or their daughter, pls do not send yr kids there as they would only want to brainwash the youth on their own version of 4th dimension.

Anonymous said...

just so you all know, because the youth have fought hard and long for camp, it was only approved few months back thus making the task of looking for a speaker tough.

and with pam around it isn't helping much as there is no difference at all.

as for now, i was told that it is jeremy seaward from singapore but is yet to be confirmed (still waiting for a firm/official 'yes').

be assured that the entire camp is handled by the youth themselves (which also explains the trouble they have to go through).

it is also brought to my attention that the church wants to 'combine' youth camp with church camp thats why they are so insistent on removing youth camp.

all these were told to me by my child in youth (a leader). my child also told me that the youth leaders can see that the youth are really happy to have camp once again after so long.

this is why i chose to raise my concern here for the youth. the youth leaders went through so much all these years to 'tahan' the church's organization to do their best for their fellow youth and does not deserve to be suffering the consequences of the 'happenings'.

Anonymous said...

To all the concerned parents of the CC Youth

"since the youth have fought hard and long for camp, it was only approved few months back thus making the task of looking for a speaker tough"

Let us not be too overly concerned about the speaker. God has opened up a way for the youth to have a camp. Rejoice!

God loves the youth just as much as we do so leave the camp to God. He will make sure the youths will be revived for Him - irrespective who is the speaker. God will be the one who will allow who is to speak to His precious young lambs.

Just thank God and rejoice that the youth of CC is having a young camp this year. Amen! and Hallelujah!

Anonymous said...

Dear Mission otm,
Thank you for those two letters written by Ted and Gayle Haggard. They brought tears to my eyes...the pain, the shame, the brokenness.

And yet, i see hope, too. When hearts are broken in godly sorrow for their sin, it is true repentance. Ted Haggard assumed 100% responsibility for his 'fall from grace,' not blaming anyone, and even thanking those who had exposed his sins.

I can respect fallen leaders like that, who confess their sins and ask for forgiveness from their congregation. My heart goes out to him & his wife - surely there is hope for them to be restored. Ted Haggard is humble - his broken heart and contrite spirit before the Lord is a sacrifice acceptable to God (Psalm 51)

Anonymous said...

I gotta agree with 'broken'. The youth leaders have been fighting really hard for a youth camp this year and we finally got it!
LIKE FINALLY!! oh yeay!

Since there is a lil discussion youth camp itself, are there any one who would want to SPONSOR some youths for camp?
I know that there are couple of youths who cant afford it and that will be great if any of you would like to sponsor. Or maybe subsidise a bit cuz RM 255 maybe a lil too much for some parents.

If there are any kind souls who wish to sponsor the youths, please write to calvarytoday (calvarytoday@gmail.com) as I would bring this matter up to the youth leaders.

Thank you in advance for your generousity! God bless!

Anonymous said...

Yes, we will be more than willing to sponsor some youth for the camp. I would like to suggest the TTG collects a YOUTH CAMP 2008 FUND to help the youth. Remember, we are are missions directors. All of us. So help.

But on two conditions:

1. Provided the speakers are acceptable to us; and

2. To consider carefully the selection criteria.

Anonymous said...

wise conditions, zachariah. also, pls make sure that any excess funds from this collection WILL not be creditted to the Youth ministry accounts.don't want it to fall in Pam's hands. And yes, selection criteria very important...I personally would not want to sponsor youths who condemns the TTG Group or youths whose parents condemn the TTG Group.

Anonymous said...

Dear Daddy's Little Girl,

We should try to spent most of it for the sponsorship. Should there be any balance, the contributors can go for one big makan and have some wholesome fellowship.

Anonymous said...

..to spend...

Anonymous said...

Just came across this:-

"All that is needed for Evil to succeed is that Decent Human Beings do Nothing" - Edmund Burke

Just substitute a couple of key words & this is very relevant to the mess at CC.

"All that is needed for (Evil) SP to succeed is that (Decent Human Beings) Concerned Calvarites do Nothing"

So to all those Calvarites who do not want to see Evil/SP succeed &, thus, Truth fail, please:
1. stand up for Truth & be counted by the Lord,
2. speak up loud & clear for the Lord if you count yourself as one of His faithfuls (unlike the faithless who murmur & worse still those who keep quiet thinking that they have faith),
3. carry your cross by standing up for Truth (as keeping quiet is indirectly supporting the untruthful one &, of all the sins, God hates a liar most).

Ask yourself "What Would Jesus Do?" if He is with us when He sees & hears the Lies, Deceits, Conceits & Pride committed by SP &/or BOD. As we are all aware that God will stand on the side of Truth & that SP &/or BOD have not been truthful, would you stand on Jesus' side or on SP's side?

The choice is clear & you will have to answer to Him should you make the wrong choice. Be warned & be careful in making your choice. Do remember that you cannot cop out by abstaining as you will still have to answer to Him.

Anonymous said...

Wow.. again I must say I cannot catch up with you guys on the blog. Too fast for a simple person like me.

Hello "a young person", I think your Youth person in charge, will be very angry with us from today on. They will blame us for wanting to "influence" you young people by sponsoring your guys. You better pray for us that we don't get rotten eggs thrown at us on Sunday.
Anyway, jokes aside...you said,

"... are there any one who would want to SPONSOR some youths for camp? ...I know a couple of youths who cant afford it ... (and) if any of you would like to sponsor. Or maybe subsidise a bit cuz RM 255 maybe a lil too much for some parents.

If there are any kind souls who wish to sponsor the youths, please write to calvarytoday (calvarytoday@gmail.com) as I would bring this matter up to the youth leaders."

Your asking for kind hearts to sponsor the youth for the Youth Camp, is not a problem for us. In fact, I think the TTG members would count to all joy to do so... BUT... we are not in contact with you young ones at all. So here's what I think you should do...

1. Identify yourself to us
2. Talk to the youth leaders to see how many actually need help
3. Appoint one person to contact us.
4. Walla... you guys sign them up, (those who need help I mean)and hand us the Bill.

Simple right? Go talk to your Youth Leaders first.

Anonymous said...

aunty karen,

cool. will come back to u! =)
thank you in advance!

Anonymous said...

good idea...either a big makan or we can give the excess funds to a non-profit christian organization that is not CC.

speaking of camp speaker, how abt Ps Kelvin Lim - ex calvarite?

Anonymous said...

Pastor Kelvin? Do you mean the former commander in Royal Rangers?

Anonymous said...

yup yup, he reads this blog too and appears to be on the side of truth.

Anonymous said...

SIB pastor Dr. Chew's messages are clinical and does not contain any BS. I've have heard him many times and I really think he has his heart for GOD only.

Go and listen to him if SP talks BS. No spiritual food but spiritual BS also take kah?

Are you all for real?

Are you all not bringing shame to GOD?

The scripture says... even the elite will be deceived... do you want to be deceived?

please ask your self.

Anonymous said...

Hello whoever you are anonymous @ 8.26,

Many of you come in here, throw a question and we have no idea what you are talking about. Why you do exactly what SP doing. Say something but yet no one knows what you are saying. Don't tell half truth, tell the full story... what are we supposed to be deceived about? Anyway don't bother to answer, you are here to distract and to irritate us.

Now they jealous to hear that our APs also go to SIB to get spiritual food, they try to belittle other pastors. Please don't stoop so low as to pull this kind of stunts here. People all over the world is reading and you are only bringing more shame and dishonor to SP & SAP for having such "apprentice" or chinese say, "tow tai".

Everyone, don't bother to ask this anonymous anything. This one also like that, why so long or peach or so many anonymous. So sad for them, got thing to say but dare not say truthfully, so talk in circles. Only SP can understand what they are trying to say.

Anonymous said...

yeah man, this anonymous @ 6.26pm is very confusing,maybe he or she is a confused person coz i hv no idea wat he she is trying to say. based on my own intepretation i think he she is saying SP talk BS. period.so he she is agreeing with us that SP talk BS. thank you anonymous for agreeing

Anonymous said...

Ted Haggard episode, is for us to learn. Here is the extraction of text showing how a well thought of bylaws at work versus uncontrollable abuse in Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart cases.

Until the scandal that drove him from the pulpit, Mr. Haggard appeared to be a responsible steward and chief executive of New Life Church and the adjoining World Prayer Center — an evangelical empire that he built from nothing on a bare plateau with sweeping views of the Air Force Academy and Pikes Peak. He was sovereign over a 14,000-member church that answered to no denomination and was in many ways built on his charisma.

Mr. Haggard spelled out his system of checks and balances in bylaws that independent churches in the United States and overseas have adopted as a model. “All of our bylaws are really set up to protect our churches from us,” said Mr. Ware, the senior pastor of Victory Church in Westminster, Colo. “The same bylaws Ted wrote were the same laws by which he was dismissed.”

Unlike the televangelists Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart, who became mired in sexual and financial scandals in the 1980s, Mr. Haggard’s case was decided by his board with a haste that stunned many church members and employees.

Please take note that on how the overseers come to the decision on Teg Haggard case.

Abba Father, wilt thou spare us from this cross?

More text from this link.

Minister’s Own Rules Sealed His Fate

Anonymous said...

To: anonymous
Please do not criticize PS Chew, he had nothing to do with Calvary's saga, if you ever continue to talk about him, it is very clear that you are jealous of his giftings. He is a pastor who really feared God and doctrinally very sound, he is also a well respected servant of God. He had always been a testimony to people around him.
You have better pray for your little tongue...

May God's mercies and forgiveness come upon you.

Anonymous said...

Some of you were commenting about Foong Ling and her antiques. u're so right, she probably earns commission from removing members from the membership list. sometimes,i think she is even more excited to remove members than to recruit new members or when new people are accepted as members. come to think of it, i think even if she does not earn commission from removing members, she will still do so as secretly, she takes pleasure in tormenting the lives of other ppl just so she feels better about her self. seriously, i think that is a fact.

Anonymous said...

It's ok for pastors to visit SIB church. It's ok for any Christian to visit another church. We are all members of His body. In fact, all Calvarites should visit not only SIB but all others including DUMC, RLC, FGA, GT, etc. Many ex-Calvarities are there. Ask them why they left CC.

Most Calvarities are 'locked up' by SP. He can go anywhere overseas but 'his sheep' must be 'locked up'. Why? So, they are not exposed or know too much. Then he can still 'control or manipulate' them.

Anonymous said...

Look around every Sunday. There are so few guests and no wonder Sn Pas talked of many empty seats.

My own experience had my relatives saved in SIB, grew wonderfully and met Pas Dr Chew twice in his cell group. I brought them there as I felt they can grow in SIB.

Anonymous said...

True there are many Calvarites in SIB. Why? I can offer some views:
1. Youth can run whole service - once in two months (I was told) called the resonance service
2. Pas Chew and Pas Lee Choo care about the people. They are humble
3. Worshippers are joyful and more friendly
4. One ex-Calvarite can write a book THERE IS HOPE of her testimony of Jesus' healing her of cancer and launched by Sn Pastor. She gave a testimony during Sunday Service. Later, she was even interviewed by Aljezeera and beamed to millions of her story. Not used in Calvary but God opened door for her elsewhere.
5. Too many other reasons..to continue

Anonymous said...

how about the key reason - In SIB, there is no people named Prince Guneratnam, Petrina Guneratnam, Chris Lee, Pamela Guneratnam and Jim Guneratnam? Without them, there is no misuse of funds and authority.

Anonymous said...

SP encouraged us to read THE FOURTH DIMENSION by Dr. Cho.
This is extracted from the book in case some of you don’t have it.

Chapter 1 – Incubation: A Law of Faith

1)Envision a clear cut objective
2)Have a burning desire
3)Pray for assurance
4)Speak the Word (Pg 28)

Dr. Cho said, “Get a clear-cut goal and objective. Have a desire that burns to the boiling point, then pray until you have substance, the assurance. Then begin to speak the word about which you have been given assurance.” (Pg 35)

Chapter 2 – The Fourth Dimension

Dr Cho said, “You are not a common creature, for you have the fourth dimension in your heart, and it is the fourth dimension that has dominion over the three material dimensions – the cubical world, the world of the plane, and the world of the line. Through dominion in the fourth dimension the realm of faith – you can give order to your circumstances and situations, give beauty to the ugly and chaotic, and healing to the hurt and suffering.” (pg 66)

Chapter 3 – The Creative Power of the Spoken Word

Dr Cho said, “ The spoken word has power, and when you release that word, it is the word, and not you, who performs miracles.
God does not use you because you are completely sanctified, for as long as a Christian lives he will be struggling with the flesh….So brothers and sisters, let us make use of the spoken word – for success in our personal lives, for material for which the Holy Spirit can create, and for the purposes of creating and releasing the presence of Jesus Christ.

Remember that Christ is depending upon you and your spoken word to release His presence. What are you going to do with this Jesus who is riding on your tongue? Are you going to release Him for blessing of others? Or are you going to lock Him up with a still tongue and a closed mouth? May God bless you as you make your decision.” (pg 86)

Anonymous said...

I was a youth leader for a number of years but am no longer one, i know the exact struggle for getting 'approval' to have youth camps etc.

The church constantly tells the youths that 'we are supporting you' but almost everytime that needs to be done is constantly obstacled and it's almost as if they are trying to prevent us from having events etc.

spikeee said...

Blog Admin,

i'm not sure who the young person is who is asking for sponsorship, but if i can be of assistance,i can help to work the funding process between the sponsors and the camp committee.

Joel

Anonymous said...

SP claims he lives in the 4th dimension and need to say nothing But his good friend, Dr Cho Yonggi, in his book "4th Dimension",as commented by someone earlier, teaches ppl to say lots of things.

Dr Cho says we, Christians, are all in the 4th dimension and yet SP cannot see us in the 4th dimension. Oh my gosh!!!... that means SP must be in the counterfeit 4th dimension, that's why he can't see us, that why he thinks we're in the 3rd dimension.....

Anonymous said...

Wow. Have the SP and office staff really thrown away their staff handbooks?

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

A SUGGESTION TO VISITORS FROM OTHERS CHURCHES

Dear Visitor
If you are a member of another church, I strongly recommend that you consider starting a blog for your own church.

The majority of the church leaders are sincere GOD fearing Christians. In fact they are servant-leaders and put their flock first. Unfortunately, the world had witnessed rogue Christian leaders that has caused untold suffering to their flock and Christianity.

Starting a blog for your church would allow members to voice their satisfaction and dissatisfaction. It provides a platform for the congregation to give their opinion, values and contribute towards the church. After all it is your church and each members has the right to voice his/her opinion - whether right or wrong!.

I suggest that if you decide to start a blog, it should be independent of the Church leadership. There should be some form of independence and hence it should be administrated by a person who is not on the Church leadership team or Board of Directors. He/she should be a mature Christian of sound mind and Godly character.

The Blog Administrator should have his own team of advisers for check and balance. The greatest danger would be to have a Blog Administrator who runs against the basic Christian values as taught in the Bible. The blog must maintain TTG - Truth, Transparency and Governance! In short there must be a team of people to ensure the Blog meets best practices on Governance.

There is sufficient material in the Internet to help you start a Blog. Perhaps you can learn a few "do" and "don't" from this blog. This blog is still evolving and maturing day by day.

NOTE: I am not the administrator of this blog nor a member of Calvary Church. I am a Banker by profession and a Christian researcher who had witnessed first hand spiritual abuse by Christian leaders. The 'Dark Night of the Soul' some of us experienced in the hands of rogue Christian leaders has become the New Dawn for many of us. We know what it is to be liberated Christians and have witnessed how faithful the Lord is in destroying the strong holds of rogue Christian leaders. He has a passion that His Church is governed by TTG!

ALL THE BEST

Dr. P. Vijayan
www.normangrubb.com

THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS AND NOT NECESSARILY THE VIEWS OF THE NECF.

Anonymous said...

Dear "The real 4th dimension"

Thank you for taking the time to reproduce parts of the book by Cho Yonggi. I have read this book many years ago as I was preparing myself to be a good Life Group Leader - I think it was compulsory reading, then.

However, I have heard that Cho, too, was having some TTG problems in his church & the BOD of Yoido Church have removed him from his position as senior pastor although he is still holding on to his "CHURCH GROWTH INTERNATIONAL" organisation. His son has been charged with CBT, I think. However, can someone please verify this.

Someone commented that since SP & SAP are good friends of Cho & his wife, they have emulated their extravagant lifestyle as well. The YOIDO FULL GOSPEL CHURCH has 1 million members, so can you imagine the amoount of offerings every Sunday? The temptation must have been too great for Cho.

Anonymous said...

A very sound suggestion from Bro. Vijay to all visitors of this blog from other churches. There must always be a check and balance. I always believe that to be a great and respected leader, we must not be afraid of positive criticism. We need to have 'true' friends and buddies who dare to tell us off when we've done wrong and praise us when we truly deserve it. I agree and like what the US President Elect Senator Obama said in his victory speech:

"There are many who won't agree with every decision or policy I make as president, and we know that government can't solve every problem. But I will always be honest with you about the challenges we face. I will listen to you, especially when we disagree. And above all, I will ask you join in the work of remaking this nation the only way it's been done in America for 221 years block by block, brick by brick, calloused hand by calloused hand."

Yes, there will be people who would not agree with our decisions. But, as a great leader, we must listen to them; their disagreement, grievances etc. Be very careful with "so called friends" who always praise you. We call them "kaki bodek."

To all church leaders, I sincerely hope you can make this as one of your goals to be a great and caring shepherd, that is "I WILL LISTEN TO YOU, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE DISAGREE."

God bless

Anonymous said...

Hi Joel,

Thanks for offering your help. I was in a fix for the moment becoz Uncle Winslow has nicely delegated the sponsorship responsibility to me. (Thanks Winslow for your confidence in me)

Anyway, since we are in a blur regarding who this "young person" is, you be the co-odinator. I am sure this young person will come looking for you soon. But please get clearance from the Youth Leaders first. I don't want to run foul with them in this matter, although I can confidently say, it is a joy for us TTG, to be able to help those in need.

Others of you young people reading, please approach Joel, (not me, Aunty Karen or Uncle Winslow)if you need some help to get you to the Youth Camp. Don't worry, it is strictly - No Strings Attached - Just a willing and hungry heart to hear from God.

HOWEVER, there is a suggestion that we only sponsor half (setengah) of the camp fees for you. This is to ensure that you will take things seriously and to appreciate God for what He has done for you. So Joel, try to tell them this, unless of course, if they really can't afford then there will be exceptions to the rule.

All you TTGs, don't run away from me when I come knocking on your door. Ho ho ho.

Thanks and know that our God is Good.

Anonymous said...

Dr Henry Blackaby's message in SIB on Sunday was titled 'Experiencing God in Difficult Times'. If our associate pastors and church staff went for that message to seek God's will during this difficult time in our church, more (Jesus') power to them! I think we should support them in that.

I believe it is under SP's dictatorship that our church has become so insular, so inward-looking. We don't join or share with other churches. And we are one body in Christ. A couple years back, a few churches in Cheras united to evangelize in that area. I thought that was great!

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Dear Joseph Gerard

Thanks for the quote from US President Elect Senator Obama. We can all can learn for it.

It is my deepest wish that all Christians, I included, will remember what you wrote.

"To all church leaders,(including National Christian Organisations - this is added by me) I sincerely hope you can make this as one of your goals to be a great and caring shepherd, that is 'I WILL LISTEN TO YOU, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE DISAGREE.'"

Vijay

Anonymous said...

Our youth definitely need help desperately, especially for this coming camp. I heard they are having a very tight budget and the church is not helping at all. Inmagine the youth leaders has to find the suitable Hotel, ask for quotations, negotiate and re-negotiate (duno how many times), select the menu and even drove down to PD to check out the actual site and took pictures then come back write proposal and submit it for SP's kind approval! Praise the Lord at last through many prayers and binding of evil forces, they got the appoval.
Personally I think the Church could do more by giving them some finacial support or subsidy just to encourage our young ppl. sigh...sadly SP dont have the foresight for the young ppl. he think of them more of a liability than an asset, he can't see one day these young ppl. would grow up and become successful great leaders and businessmen and can contribute alot to church.
So dear bros. & sis., lets do our part to help them. Thanks 4 reading.

Anonymous said...

... the flip side to what "support young ppl" wrote is that our young people are given the opportunity and challenge to plan for a camp from A to Z ...

Anonymous said...

Dear Young People of CCKL,

Ps. Kelvin Lim here. What is your budget per person for the camp. If there's anyway I can be of assistance, please do get in touch with me. I may be contacted through e-mail at kelvinwazhere@gmail.com.

3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin

Anonymous said...

Think Joel will be a good middleman for this sponsorship programme. Am sure the youths who will be sponsored will be very appreciative and blessed by the TTG Group’s efforts. However, if approval/consent is to be obtained from Pam first before you all can go ahead with it, am not sure what her response on this would be. I personally do not think we need approval/consent from her to sponsor the youths. She should be more than happy that church members are supporting the youths and if she were to reject this sponsorship,then she better go sponsor the youths from her own pocket.

Anonymous said...

Camp fee RM255.00 per person is just too high, inmagine some poor families with 3 or more kids (ages from 13) how to afford to send all of them to go. If the church love our children enough they sould subsidize abit. If can bring down to RM180 p/p then will be very good.

Anonymous said...

Pain of Restoration and Restitution says to Tears of Repentance
Pls. check out
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/cho/general.htm
and regarding NEPOTISM I quote from another source ...
"In the Full Gospel Church, Cho, idolized and almost deified, is now eclipsing God. If he is a sincere follower of God, he should avoid such inappropriate worship dedicated to himself,’’ said Rev. Ku Kyo-hyung, secretary general of the Christian Alliance for Church Reform. ``Sometimes it looks like the North Korean leadership.’’

Ku said his civic group, which has also kept raising the issue of the church’s financial irregularities, plans to file a lawsuit against Cho this month.

The group has claimed that the church’s money somehow flowed into companies owned by Cho’s first son Hee-jun.

``We have spotted a few suspected irregularities in the church and will take them to court,’’ Ku said.

In a related incident in 2001, Hee-jun was arrested for embezzlement and tax evasion in his companies and the pastor then apologized to the congregation during a service for his son’s misbehavior.

Some civic groups view the case of Cho well represents the intrinsic problems "

Anonymous said...

Tears for First Family queries....

Where was PG and his first family on Oct 7-14 (or thereabouts).On business class trips or vacation?

Anonymous said...

Ah! So, SP has been taking lessons from Cho.

Birds of a feather flock together.

Anonymous said...

Let the Cho saga in South Korea be a lesson and wake-up call to the Christian fraternity in Malaysia, particularly in CC.

I suggest we get in touch with Rev. Ku Kyo-hyung, secretary general of the Christian Alliance for Church Reform, on how we can also initiate similar legal and other forms of actions against SP and other leaders in CC.

We must stand up for TTG in CC. If we don't, we will be answerable to God.

We should never back down although the CC leadership is not doing anything.

It's very very sad that the actions of so-called Christian leaders have brought great shame to the Christian church. God is grieving. We must bring back some dignity to the Church of Jesus Christ. We must not let His Church be destroyed.

God will never be mocked!

Anonymous said...

Thanks, "Pain of Restoration and Restitution"...

Inspite of all the bad publicity, SP still invited Mrs. Cho over to Calvary Church recently, didn't he? The Guneratnams and the Chos are giving each other pats on the back?

Church funds flowing mysteriously into Cho's son's companies' accounts? A strange parallel, indeed....over here, church funds flowing mysteriously into SP's personal ministry accounts!!

Yucks! What a shame to the Name of the Lord!

Anonymous said...

is is noted by a youth that the camp fees are expensive (rm255) because there is no form of subsidy at all from the church. in fact i heard that rm255 'ngam-ngam' covers all the expenses and there is nothing left at all (hence very very tight budget as mentioned in past comments).

Anonymous said...

and the worst part is that the youth leaders are all 'made to think' that "I'm sure the youths can afford it, all they need to do is cut down on some shopping, some starbucks, some movies and voila!"

and then here we have a senior pastor (and family) who lives extravagantly

i know the young leaders in church want to do all they can as well, but this is a form of being bullied into 'submission'

Anonymous said...

trouble is, i think sometimes that our camps (youth, church, wateva) are sometimes too elaborate. simplex2 can already, dont really need to be so complex...

i think the problem lies with some of the more well-to-do youth who add in camp features and attractions, driving the fees up. They arent really aware that others may not be able to afford the fees.

Anonymous said...

Dear Youth of CC

Since the fee has already been fixed - do not harp on it as at this late stage there is nothing much you can do.

Bring up the cost of the fee at the post mortem of the camp. Then you will be wiser next year.

So register and enjoy the camp young people. It will be good.

Anonymous said...

speaking of camps, do u all know tat we've been duped all these years into thinking tat our church has been subsidizing part of our fees for the camp??? we were always so grateful to the church as they would tell us that they are subsidizing us for 'x' amount of ringgit, so we only need to pay 'xx' amount. But what happens is that they will first mark up the price per person and also include the costs to cover some of the pastors' camp fees and only after jacking up the original costs, will they then tell u they are giving u a subsidy. In reality, we are actually paying more than we should. what a rip off.

Anonymous said...

Hi WE WERE DUPED,

How do you know? Another speculation?

Anonymous said...

Mr F, it's not speculation..it's a fact. one of the hotel people where one of the camps were held told someone the actual cost per person.

Anonymous said...

Hi We Were Duped,

Looks like we have to check everything that they say or do especially when it comes to MONEY.

I always remember our SP saying during AGMs long time ago that "er..I am actually not good with figures and numbers. So I really appreciate our church treasurer.....bla.. bla..bla.."

Thanks for your reply. Good investigative work. Keep it up. Find out more and investigate more.

Anonymous said...

... i hope you realise that there is more to the total cost for a camp (per person0 than what the hotel charge per person ... don't be duped ...

Anonymous said...

more than hotel cost, besides the hotel room charge, food charge and seminar room charge, what else is there? pray tell.

Anonymous said...

... transportation where applicable, materials, speaker(s) expenses including love gift ...

Anonymous said...

Dear "we were duped"

Don't worry. God will not be mocked as He cannot be duped. If it's true that CC duped us as what you have claimed, the people involved will surely have to answer for it. You can be very sure of this as our Almighty God is on the side of Truth.

Rejoice always in God of Truth!

Anonymous said...

Dear "more than hotel",

What love gift? You mean CC pays speakers love gifts!

How come SP is not paid love gift when he goes for speaking assignments under CIM?

I can only think of 2 possibilties:

1) His audience don't love him as he always speaks on 4th dimension and they don't understand him.

2) His audience love him so much and give big love gift to him BUT he does not declare in CIM account.

Anonymous said...

more than hotel cost, ohhh..thanks for enlightening me. no wonder we were always charged so much as i didn't know WE have to pay for the speaker's expenses. did u also forget to mention SP's expenses? But I do not agree with yr transportation expenses. most of us go in our own transport and those who opt for to take the bus have to pay additional on top of the church camp fees, so pls don't go and include transport costs as a reason to why we are paying more. As for materials, what materials? u mean the few sheets of paper that we sometimes get? didn't know those were so expensive.
Ah Beng no.2, thanks, you are right. When CC duped us, they not only duped us but also duped God.Go check out our annual audited accounts and look at the church camp expenses which is supposed to be subsidy. quite little isn't it considering CC subsidized a few hundred people?

Anonymous said...

i was young and now am old

we used to enjoy youth camp and a highlight of our life. we will not rich too we go for sponcership but the differents is we offer our service . we do anything to go for camp. you name it we do. we paint the church fence we clean the store room. some of us had even painted pastor Lawrence Yap home to go church camp . that was a long time ago and he was a youth then.

Youth don't just ask for money offer your services.go paint someone house. your earning will always taste sweet

Anonymous said...

Not workable for youths today to go work for their money UNLESS it is organised by the church. Who are these poor young fellas goin to approach to paint houses for? Today's members also so fussy, won't want these bunch of youngsters painting uneven colors on wall do you?

BUT the church youth dept can organise one saturday for members to let the youth wash their cars for a "Bigger" fee to help these guys. Call it CAR WASH FOR YOUTH CAMP SATURDAY. They happy to work for their camp fee and we happy got a clean car.

Anonymous said...

Dear "i was young and now am old"

You've given me a good idea. Maybe youth should earn their sponsorship for youth camp.

If someone can paint my auto gate, I will sponsor full camp fee. Any taker, see me. I'm serious.

Love,
Uncle Winslow

Anonymous said...

As an ex-Calvarite who used to pay incredible amounts of money for CC Family Camps through the years, but now having first-hand experience of other churches' family camps, I can verify that CC overcharges the campers because have to cover the costs for pastors & speakers. My present church pays (from the church treasury)for the pastors, the workers, & speaker's camp costs but the love offering for the speakers is charged to the campers - just a mere RM5/- (5 Ringgit only) extra is added to every camper's cost.

Anonymous said...

In addition, NOT only does CC overcharges the campers (imagine a family of FIVE squeezed into ONE room having to pay RM1,300/- for camp!), the offering bag is also passed round to the campers to give love offerings to the speaker!

SP & SAP have been fleecing the flock, taking advantage of their gullibility & generosity FOR YEARS!

Anonymous said...

I have always thought that our camps are too expensive. Why must we stay at hotels and eat hotel food?

Anonymous said...

I agree with "too expensive". Why must we eat the hotel food? Most of the time the food is horrible but there was one camp in Cherating that we went, the food was best of the best!! The other camps that I have been, the food was nothing to shout about. The hawker food is even nicer than the hotel food. Most of the time, you get bored with the food because they serve you the same food for four to five days.

Anonymous said...

Youth, if you seriously want to go for the camp, God will honour your desire because it is good to want to seek the Lord in the camp.
Go work for it.
I have 2 teenagers. I knew there was a year when they wanted to go for youth camp and as a parent paying for 2 kids is not cheap. So in that year, they decided to work for it and pay for their own youth camp. It is holiday time now and most of you guys are either lazing around or lepaking in the shopping malls or stuck to your computers chatting with your friends or playing your computer games. So why not work and earn the money to pay for youth camp. It will be more rewarding. Believe me, my kids have done that and they are glad they did.

Anonymous said...

If there is a savings of, say, RM20,000 per pax for travel to US and for two is therefore RM40,000. Work out how many youths can go for free if the savings is used to subsidize the Youth camp. Think about it. Economy or business class?
Aiyoyoh!

Anonymous said...

Hi all Calvarites,

It may or may not be a good idea to let the youth sweat for their sponsorship.

Kalau nak kasi, kasi lah. Jangan suruh orang nak buat ini atau buat itu. Want to give, give it wholeheartedly.

Dont be like some employers, where you make sure you squeeze every inch of their sweat and blood to earn their gaji.

We are talking about giving those who deserve it. When you give gifts and offerings to church, do you ask the pastors and staff to paint your gate first.

Give the youth a break.

You enjoy seeing them suffer right in front of your eyes before you give them the money for their camp? The Bible says, the left hand is not supposed to know when the right hand gives alms. By right, if you are really sincere in giving, you dont reveal to the receiver that you gave.

It reminds me of the incident a few decades ago where the church sponsored for my church camp. There were no conditions attached. But to my shockalingam, when I came back from the camp our dear SP put both of his hands on my shoulders and said with his 'heavenly' smile and said that I need to work in the church for a few days or a week (I cant remember how long) by mopping the floors and cleaning the toilets in the church. I DID KNOW WHETHER I SHOULD SMILE OR CRY.

How cruel.

So, do dont do the same to our youth who deserve to go but cannot afford it. We are supposed to ensure of their spiritual growth and well-being.

PLEASE!!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

youth don't need hotel rooms. anyway all you will only squeeze in a room an fellowship. get dorms cheaper and more fun.
we used to sleep on tables. we dont remember what we eat but we remember all the friend we made and God touching our life. we dont remember how far Ipoh was (camp was in ipoh)but we remember yes we remember how near God was.We don't remember any discomfort we only remember the comfort of christian friends.The God that you know in your youth will be your God that hold your hands in your life journey. i know because i am one of them.
INCIDENTALLY AND BY THE WAY IF SOME OF YOU DONT KNOW MANY OF THE TTG WERE ONCE YOUTH OF CC

Caring adults do make an offer for the youth to earn their keeps. yes they may not do a good job but where can they start if we don t help them out.
let them paint it .pay them and get a professional to do the job again( just kidding)
get them to paint your porch not your porche.

the youth will remember your kindness.

Anonymous said...

Why are you making the youth feel so insecure. :>)

First you offered to help pay half their fees, now you want them to work for it.

Come on...isn't it a bit too near the camp to organise any jobs.

Let's be big hearted this time and just sponsor them this year. They fought so hard to get this camp - let them enjoy it.

Next year = let the youth plan something for those who cannot afford the fees.

Don't spoil their fun. Love them with the heart of Jesus.

Anonymous said...

Ok, everybody! Let's not split hair on whether youth should or should not work to get sponsorship for youth camp.

Hi, if you love the youth and want to sponsor, email your sponsorship pledges to CT and let the youth work out the details themselves. Maybe Spikee can assist, and liaise with CT.

And please remember to fulfil your pledges.

Meanwhile, let's get back on track on TTG again. How did we get here by the way? Must have been the thrill of youth camp "revived" again!!!! Never mind, let's get back to business.

God bless.

Anonymous said...

Hi "New Beginning" @ November 13, 2008 5:53 PM,

Do not undermine the benefit of working your way to the camp. I strongly encourage those who can get the opportunity to do so. God bless the righteous at heart. Rejoice and be glad in the effort. For those of you who could afford the fees, you are not any lesser. Count it His blessing. For great and mighty things are installed for you in this camp. Go with expectation.

Uncle Winslow,
Could you leave your contact? I will paint your gate. Don't worry, I am a professional so you will have a nice gate after all. Do you want me prepare the tools and the paint? I am available this Saturday, or other time and day of your choice. For that, one youth considered sponsored. You may split them for two.

Please consider to hire me. I am offering RM255 for another youth if you choose to take up my offer. How about that?

Anonymous said...

Ex-calvarite, thank you for reminding me abt the offering bag that is passed ard during the camp to collect love offering for the speaker. If CC had already allocated love offering for the speaker by adding it into our camp fees, why do they need to collect one more round of love offering?
As for the church campers having to pay for not only the speakers' expenses but probably also some of the pastors and their families' camp fees, why bother telling us that they are so kind as to give us a subsidy?? I rather they not give us any subsidy and charge us the REAL price that we are supposed to pay and they then tell us that the church will pay for the speaker's expenses. What they have been doing all this while is false misrepresentation.

Anonymous said...

I am refer to the remark by PW that the church's Constitution does not specify the retirement age of SP. I am positive that PW is a professional, a senior executive and a man of substantial standing in the corporate world with vast experience. I am also certain that he can define "constitution" as a "record of fundamental principles or established precedents according to which a State or other organization is acknowledged to be governed.

So, the constitution and the Staff Handbook spelling out the terms and conditions of employment are TWO different entities.

PW having been Deacon for many terms and presently the Deacon for Administrative Affair would certainly be aware of the existence of the Staff Handbook. I concur with the Post that he tried to hoodwink or pull wool over the eyes of the congregation at the recent EGM speaking half-truth.

In most organizations, the terms and employment are spelt out clearly in detail in the Staff Handbook though some may use a different description for the title
but the contents are more or less the same. This applies to all employees whether executives or staff without exception.

The church's Staff Handbook has been in force for many years because it had mentioned that the annual leave entitlement had been revised on 01 January 2002.

When an employee reaches retirement age and if the employer is of the opinion that the employee's service is still beneficial, the employer will then offer the employee temporary employment on a contract period of one or two years. The contract period must be stated and not open to prevent abuse.This appointment is automatically terminated upon the expiry of the contract period unless renewed in writing with mutual consent.

The terms of remuneration is usually at the discretion of the employer. In some cases, there is no annual leave entitlement, no medical leave except medical expenses by the panel doctor and no EPF contributions. However what is mentioned in the foregoing is open to negotiations between the two parties unless precedents or expressed conditions had been set.

On the matter of ex-staffs who were offered temporary employment on half of the last drawn pay or if there are appointment letters to this effect or otherwise shown in accounting records,then this had became an expressed condition and must apply to all contracts. This condition must not be selective or double-standards applied.

If staffs feel that they have been unjustly or unfairly treated, they can lodge a report at the Labour Office to seek justice. This applies only to staff who earn less than RM1500.00 per month to be covered under the Labour Laws.

Hence appointment letters spelling out the basic terms are necessary for good governance. One cannot use the excuse that "we are different".

BTW, I do not understand why it was mentioned in the blog that church staffs who resigned are not paid their last month salary. If the staff had given sufficient notice in compliance with their terms of employment and does not owe the church any monies nor suspended from work, then the salary must be paid. Otherwise, this is an offence by the employer under the Labour Laws.

Oh, if there is no documentary evidence that SP and SAP have been given contractual temporary employment, maybe they can be given the "walking certificates" now. However let us be magnanimous and let them retire gracefully.

I am certain that there are many executives or human resource personnel or those who have extensive experience in handling employment aspects in the church who will be able to comment on what I had written.

Employers can always consult and seek the opinion of the Malaysian Employers Federation (MEF), tel. no. 03 7955 7778. Maybe we need a human resource lawyer instead of a criminal lawyer here.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mission OTM,

Thanks for offering to take up my offer.

By the way, are you going for youth camp yourself or are you an adult wanting to earn some cash to sponsor a youth? My offer is to the former.

Anyway, email me at winslow.wong@gmail.com and leave your no. I'll call you.

God bless.

Anonymous said...

I think we have gone off track again.

The title or topic in this blog is Post EGM - Another Deception at EGM?

Anonymous said...

Personally i think that the cost of church camps arise mostly from hall booking, food, etc. Bear in mind we're having buffet breakfast/lunch/dinner almost all the time, whereas a typical hotel room booking only offers you a single buffet breakfast for two.

However, it doesn't mean that the cost is justified. I for one believe the youths ought to rough it out a bit more, as opposed to staying in hotels and such.

Anonymous said...

Ex-youth, bear in mind that when the church books for any church camps, they get a special priced package since they have the volume – meaning, it is normally cheaper than what we would pay if just say u go with yr own family,book a room and eat buffet food 3 meals a day. The church has definitely been charging us more than the original cost of the price per person, and when I say price per person, I am already including 3 buffet meals a day, room, seminar room cost and what nots. What are the hidden costs u ask me? Read the above comments by ‘more than hotel cost’ who has ended up spilling the beans rather than justifying why the church needs to charge more. We are paying for the the pastors’ expenses and love offering although another love offering will usually be collected again. For the church to do something like that, why don’t they just tell us that they will pay for all the pastors’ expenses (and when I say pastors’ – this includes our own church pastors) instead of lying to us that they are giving us a subsidy. We were duped.

Anonymous said...

agee with Mr F, back to our post..but personally I feel that the youth have to first stand up very firmly regarding their conviction on what is going on in the church now! going for youth camp or not, does it really matter if the church itself not having that 'heart' and 'love' for the spiritual well being of the youth, if the church only focus on how to 'control' and keeping the youth to become the 'backbone' for the current leadership 'secret' agenda.. I, for once as a parent would not support my children to participate in the church camp now if that is the case.( my humble opinion)

to the youth, it was wrong and spiritually grieving to Jesus becoz you people had to 'fight'( quoted from some comment) for the camp to take place. God would not be pleased to have a church like that, honestly, these days, calvary church would not announce the speaker becoz they were afraid of repercussion, it is not fair not knowing who the speaker will be after you had arrived or signed up for the camp. I would not go, if the speaker is someone who had 'bad history or record' and continue to keep doing wrong to preach and minister to me..( my humble opinion).

Anonymous said...

What exactly is sin? The Bible says that sin is a heart condition. It is a condition of rebellion against God, which stems from pride. The Bible even refers to pride as "original sin." The Hebrew definition of the word sin means "to miss the mark." God created us to be like Him, but our pride and rebellion make us fall far short of that purpose. Our actions, though they may be "sinful", are really only the fruit of our rebellion against God. Our outward actions merely mirror our true inner condition. God looks on the heart.

Anonymous said...

hello. just wondering when is youth camp and where is it held? couldn't find it on calvary's website. thanks!

back to what's happening at church. Dear Lord, i really wonder how long more will we have to wait to see Your church restored? Yet we will continue to trust in You - for blessed are all who wait for Him, the God of justice! You are mighty to save! amen!

Isaiah 30:18
Yet the LORD longs to be gracious to you;
he rises to show you compassion.
For the LORD is a God of justice.
Blessed are all who wait for him!

Anonymous said...

Dear "Mirror, mirror..."

The original sin committed by Adam & Eve was 'disobedience.'

Satan's sin was pride.

Anonymous said...

Like Hittite, Sumerian, and Akkadian literature, Israelite literature draws upon a rich thesaurus for terminology relating to sin. One may count over fifty words for “sin” in biblical Hebrew, if specific as well as generic terms are isolated

David Noel Freedman, The Anchor Bible Dictionary (New York: Doubleday, 1996, c1992), 6:31.

Anonymous said...

Traditionally the church has accounted for this inner [sinful disposition] disposition by reference to the concept of original sin as a means of defining the manner in which the sin of Adam affects all human beings.

Sinclair B. Ferguson and J.I. Packer, New Dictionary of Theology, electronic ed. (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000, c1988), 642.

Anonymous said...

Prosperity Gospel Evangelist to
Tears of Repentance
"Inspite of all the bad publicity, SP still invited Mrs. Cho over to Calvary Church recently, didn't he? The Guneratnams and the Chos are giving each other pats on the back?"

Why not? "Rev. Cho is my MENTOR" said SP.

SP and first family's notion of prosperity is to prosper at Calvary Church's coffers provided by our ever providing (not necessary prosperous" faithful.

Anonymous said...

By the way, the phrase "original sin" does not actually occur in the Bible, Old or New Testament.

Anonymous said...

A good and simple FAQ on "original sin" may be found here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/beliefs/originalsin_1.shtml

Anonymous said...

In response to this post

Extended "BOD"
answers to this post four (4) queries
1. NO
2. NO
3. No
and
4. This question is moot. HE does not have a LEGAL WRITTEN CONTRACT

Which part of our nos' we don't understand here!!!

So whatever transactions of funds or dealings that SP and his family (SAP, PL, JG) conducts are not LEGAL and binding. They can be cited for CBT, especially SP's signature is required to complete large chequing amounts.


Furthermore since PW is being called dishonest and at worse an abetting accomplice in this HOODWINK of our TTG quest for truth, our next question is to the REST OF THE BOD are you going to be derelict in the discharge of your DIVINE and FIDUCIARY responsibilities? If you can't RESIGN. As a faithful member I can take legal actions against you!!!

Anonymous said...

Dear Bible scholar 2

Satan is a fallen angel, thus the original was pride.
Satan fell and got Adam and Eve to disobeyed God.

Anonymous said...

can someone print out a copy this article along with the comments and pass it directly to PW? Maybe like SP, he is also computer illerate. PW needs to know that his lies are found out and he should step down as deacon if he still has any self worth left in him.

Anonymous said...

In case anyone gets confused with my nickname, I am NOT Patrick Wong but I am calling him to resign. that is all.

Anonymous said...

dear "mirror on the wall,"

the term 'original sin' is a theological term & not in the Bible. Please check the link provided by Anonymous 6.27 pm:

Anonymous said...
By the way, the phrase "original sin" does not actually occur in the Bible, Old or New Testament.

November 14, 2008 6:21 PM


Anonymous said...
A good and simple FAQ on "original sin" may be found here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/beliefs/originalsin_1.shtml

November 14, 2008 6:27 PM

Anonymous said...

Hi everybody,

Discourse getting a wee bit theological. Can we revert to something more down to earth like TTG.

Please focus. God bless!

Anonymous said...

Would anyone like to recommend resolutions to get out of this fixed?

TTG/TTC has labored to provide facts
for us. Anyone who can otherwise contest these facts, please provide your versions. Write with love, no condemnation.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

EVIDENCE THIS BLOG IS FOLLOWED BY CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND NATIONAL CHRISTIAN ORGANISATIONS

Dear TTG worriers - your work has not gone unnoticed!

I have evidence this blog is being followed by Christian Leaders and National Christian Organisations! I have received calls from prominent leaders who support all that is written in this blog.

This indirectly means these Christian Leaders/Christian Organisations 'silently' supports your stand. I thank God for such leaders and may the Lord bless them for sharing how they felt regarding events at Calvary Church, Malaysia.

Perhaps we may have to understand their predicament. Some of these prominent leaders and Christian Organisations were once or still are committee members or associated with the "SP" mentioned in this Blog. Hence, they are in a difficult spot to voice their opinion publically.

Whether this is RIGHT OR WRONG - I leave that to their individual conscience. All I can say is history has shown that it has always been the minority who had voiced PUBLICALLY what their moral and spiritual consciences had witnesses to them that had turned the tide against slavery, the rights of women and the abuse of child labour.

Perhaps we need their voice right now than ever before when we witness spiritual abuse being committed in Malaysian Churches.

Let me share with you in brief, some points I have jotted down from what one prominent Christian Organisation has written. It only shows that they care for the realities of Christian Living in Malaysia.

1.As Christians, do we think too little? Or do we think too much? If we are indeed thinkers then are we only thinkers or people of action? Is fasting and prayer the final answer to the moral wickedness and corruption of our times? Or is it the surrendering of ourselves in order to enable the answer to prayer to be worked out through us? Ought we to be ‘sleeping Jesus’, calm and confident in the storms of adversity in life or an ‘angry Jesus’ who acts clearly and unambiguously against oppressors and unjust ‘moneychangers’ in the world? How do we decide what to be and when?

2.Have we in our ignorance, deprive Christendom of the body of knowledge to help us understand the past, walk in the present and make godly choices for the future.

3.Biblical standards and teachings are absolute and eternal but much of how we think and act is not, as they are shaped by the present political, economic, social and cultural climate.

4.Nevertheless, we are constantly to cross-check our assumptions and norms against the unchanging Word of God. The whole counsel of God is needed to guide us into Truth. We need to note that the unity of the Church is not founded on the supremacy of a doctrine but of love and services to Almighty God.

5.God in His omniscience and sovereignty, has used, is using, and will use current events to accomplish His good purposes in restoring this fallen world.

6.The “Christian Organisation”is dedicated to helping recover Biblical direction, meaning and applications to issues of life. It should be obvious that we do not consider ours to be the final word on the myriads concerns that Christians face. Nevertheless, however, flawed and disjointed, we believe the process of quite reflection and (quite often-heated) discussion by members – themselves quite diverse- produces what are comparatively fair and balanced viewpoints. These we hope can be useful references for Christians who are struggling with the very same issues in their lives.

The above is a noble course and worthy of our praise. I will gladly acknowledge and provide the reference to the article in their publication from which these points were taken. However, for the present time, I think they chose to be anonymous. However, I will gladly acknowledge the wisdom in their writtings and publish the name if they request.Nevertheless, if they wish that I remove the wisdom from the blog kindly request.

Let us all pray that the moral and spiritual conscious of these leaders and Christian Organisations will eventually give them the boldness to guide the future of the reality of Christian living in Malaysia. May the Lord continue to bless these leaders and the Christian Organisation towards their many contributions.


PERHAPS it is timely we take feedback from you.

1.DO YOU THINK CHRISTIAN LEADERS AND NATIONAL CHRISTIAN ORGANISATION SHOULD BE VOCAL OR SILENT WHEN THEY ARE AWARE OF SPIRITUAL ABUSE IN CHURCHES IN MALAYSIA?

2.DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD ONLY VOICE THEIR OPINION WHEN THEY ARE INVITED BY THE LEADERSHIP OF THE CHURCH FACING THE INTERNAL PROBLEMS?

OR

3. DO YOU THINK THEIR MORAL AND SPIRITUAL CONSCIENCE SHOULD DIRECT THEIR DECISION TO SPEAK WHETHER THEY ARE INVITED OR NOT BECAUSE OF THE POSITION THEY HOLD.

What say you...

Vijay
www.normangrubb.com

Anonymous said...

Although I am 'a nobody' in A/G I am nevertheless a long-time member of A/G, an ex-Calvarite and holding leadership positions in my present church. My answer to the questions posted above:

1. Christian leaders and organisations have a MORAL OBLIGATION to speak out against injustice and corruption, whether in the Church or in their nations. This is the very meaning of being 'the light in the midst of gross darkness'.

2. To voice their opinions only when invited to by the church is the coward's way out. After all, the fear of man is a snare, but the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

3. Yes, definitely. And if they don't speak out, may their conscience trouble them everytime they go into prayer! Christian leaders are to be true to God, to their conscience, and to the Church, the Body of Christ.

Anonymous said...

Much have been said of SP serving beyond 60 without the knowledge of the congregation. Though it is stated in the Staff Handout, he has alway a way to 'convince' the deacons.

Weak leadership in the deacons is the MAJOR cause of allowing SP a STRONG HAND in manipulating policies in total disregard of the MAJORITY DOCILE CONGREGATION.

It is case of the congregation being easy meat for a sly fox.

Unless the DOCILE MAJORITY wakes up, unless the WEAK DEACONS jump up STRONG, a DICTATOR will not collapse. Of course, barring the Lord's intervention.

Oh Lord, we surrender ourselves to you and that you deliver us from this DECEPTION. In your Jesus' name. Amen

Anonymous said...

I have seen most of the deacons through and through. My conclusion - they don't have enough strong 'backbone' to stand up to SP's 'nonsense'.

They are subservient and fearful of him. They are not sensitive to the feeling of the congregation.

They are elected to serve the Lord and represent the congregation but they ended up being a 'tool' for SP. Of course, SP is 'smart'. He can use the scripture, the pulpit, the associate pastors and the deacons. He will also 'hide behind' them and let them be 'the front' to cover his character, behaviour, conduct, attitude and action.

Please stop this 'cult personality' worship in Calvary Church. Start worshipping and serving God in truth and in spirit.

Anonymous said...

The BOD is be held accountable for their failure to protect the interests of the church and should be charged with the following crimes committed against the people of Calvary Church:

1. Serving one man & his wife, SP & SAP, instead of serving the Body of Christ in Calvary who had elected them into power.
2. Allowing church funds, contributed by obedient and faithful members most of whom are not wealthy people, to be misused and chanelled into SP's personal minstry accounts.
3. Not providing the appropriate checks and balances in Church Governance, therefore being ineffective in stopping SP & SAP from sinning against God & aqainst the people of God.
4. guilty of compromising their spiritual values for the sake of being in SP's 'good books,' probably benefitting either directly or indirectly from SP's & SAP's special treatment, lavish gifts and bribes.
5.guilty of pleasing man & not pleasing God.
6. guilty of being accessory to SP & SAP's crime of spiritual abuse
7. guilty of being party to SP's "Half-truths" preached from the pulpit.

The list goes on....

Anonymous said...

Dear Vijay

My opinion on yr questions are:
Christian leaders and organizations should indeed speak up when they know that there is spiritual abuse in other churches. If they don't speak up for the victims, who will? But of course, in reality, most of them will not speak up due to 'political' reasons since they are not part of that church or since the SP who is involved in the spiritual abuse is a prominent figure in both the christian world and the secular world. If ever these christian leaders do speak up or intervene, they are afraid to be seen as 'interfering with other people's business'. I think this is even more evident in our Asian culture where people would rather not meddle with something that is not their business lest it gets them into unneccessary trouble.

But truth be told, aren't these Christian Leaders supposed to be accountable to God and not culture, men or the ways of the world? If they see something bad happening to the Lord's sheep, shouldn't they at the very least speak up or talk to the pastor involved in the whole scam? It is not so much an option for them, but it is their obligation and duty to do so as men and women placed in leadership positions by God.

So yes, I am pleading for these Christian leaders and Christian bodies to do something and HELP us now as we need your help. Please. Don't just sit there, read the blog and even when you realize that there is spiritual abuse in Calvary Church, you don't do anything about it simply because it is not your church. Thank you.

A special thank you also to Bro.Vijay for your advices and comments which have proven to be very useful and impactful.

Anonymous said...

" Walk the Talk" gunaRAT says

To the BOD, REALIZED your DIVINE & FIDUCIARY duty......

Be an useful Repentant Actualized Talker (gunaR.A.T. i.e.) rather being used and discarded. You have being called.

Glorify and be Loyal to GOD and the Body of Christ rather than remain loyal to SP and first family.
Proverbs 6:12-19 "If the slothful are to be condemned, who do nothing, much more those that do all the ill they can."

Anonymous said...

" Walk the Talk" gunaRAT says
in response to Guilty As Charged charges

1. GUILTY as charged - says " Walk the Talk" gunaRAT. Proverbs 6:12-19
2. GUILTY as charged - says " Walk the Talk" gunaRAT. Proverbs 6:12-19
3. GUILTY as charged - says " Walk the Talk" gunaRAT. Proverbs 6:12-19
4. GUILTY as charged - says " Walk the Talk" gunaRAT. Proverbs 6:12-19
5. GUILTY as charged - says " Walk the Talk" gunaRAT. Proverbs 6:12-19
6. GUILTY as charged - says " Walk the Talk" gunaRAT. Proverbs 6:12-19
7. GUILTY as charged - says " Walk the Talk" gunaRAT. Proverbs 6:12-19

Anonymous said...

COGENT & URGENT Need says

Its time to have a succession plan to prepare for SP "RETIREMENT" and or REPLACEMENT.

As per CC staff H/Book SECT 11 (2)above pic states that...retirement age for Pastors WILL be 60 years of age.

Above clearly reinforced that our BOD has failed in their discharge of their FIDUCIARY and DIVINE RESPONSIBILITIES in not preparing for a SUCCESSION plan. What happens if SP were to meet with an accident (GOD forbid it) and left him incapacitated or "fully" capable of carrying out his duties as SP.

We need it NOW. Its clear and cogent.

Anonymous said...

Hello Vijay and Obvious
i agree with your opinion. As a leader in any organisations, be it charitable, religious, social, corporate and etc, they are to be held responsible for the good and bad of their organisations! What more if it is a chritian leadership? A simple example would be leadership at home; when the children are not behaving 'the way they should be', i believe, the ledership role of a parent would be to discipline, what more if their friends not 'behaving' should our children just keep quiet or keep their parents informed?( this maybe too simple an example), this is exactly what i am trying to say, being a christian, our conduct should be pure, honest, transparent, genuine,discipline and etc...etc

i am of the opinion that it is not wrong and it is expected of us that whether we are the leader in the church or not , we are duty bound to 'do what is appropriate to rebuke or even to intercept/intervene any spiritual abuses in the church or in the leadership.

Anonymous said...

gunaRAT says

Having attended the anniversary dinner and observing the conduct of Pastor Guynes (body behaviour vis a vis with SP)at the EGN it leads me to conclude that Guynes is promoting CIM in tandem with CCC. This is reinforced in Black and White in his congratulatory message in our anniversary book.

What honourable intentions does these pastors have? Removing Calvary Church out of the equation.

Attempting to rewrite our church history, hoodwink us in believing that CIM, rather than God and CC, will not takeover CCC.

Some of our Calvarites were not aware of our pioneer history. Do not be surprise then our overseas brethren will be similar sold the same bill of goods.

Anonymous said...

gunarat says
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when at first we practice to deceive"

With reference to QUESTIONS UNANSWERED AT THE 15 AUGUST 2008 EGM
by LL repeated here

AN ORCHESTRATED EGM
THE SCENE AT THE EGM
Sure in hindsight we can see SP orchestrating and puppetering Guynes, BOD and the rest of the Usual Suspects


UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACTIONS
BOD’S UNDERTAKING WAS NOT HONOURED
SP again with devil's advocate subverting the EGM process.

LEGAL STATUS OF THE CHURCH
"Oh what a tangled web we weave, when at first we practice to deceive"

DEACON PATRICK WONG’S OPENING REMARKS

well what can you say about a dishonest deacon caught lying. Its incumbent for a deacon to be forthright and honest. No putar belit.

RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CALVARY CHURCH & HER MEMBERS, AND CALVARY CHURCH & CALVARY INTERNATIONAL MINISTRIES (CIM)

CIM (CALVARY INTERNATIONAL MINISTRIES)
A personal Ministry of Prince Guneratnam


see comments here by gunaRAT

IS THERE INDEED NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST?

OF COURSE!!!! We must break the tangled web of deceit with TTG.

Anonymous said...

Hey, i discovered that Renewal lutheran Church also have a blog by the youth. www.youthplace.blogspot.com
Do check it out!

Anonymous said...

Dear "Walk the talk GunaRAT"

You have chosen the right scripture...

Guilty as charged, SP, SAP & BOD...

"A scoundrel and villain,
who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
who winks with his eye,
signals with his feet
and motions with his fingers,
who plots evil with deceit in his heart - he always stirs up dissension.
Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
he will suddenly be destroyed - without remedy.
There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
HAUGHTY EYES,
A LYING TONGUE,
HANDS THAT SHED INNOCENT BLOOD,
A HEART THAT DEVISES WICKED SCHEMES,
FEET THAT ARE QUICK TO RUSH INTO EVIL.
A FALSE WITNESS WHO POURS OUT LIES
AND A MAN WHO STIRS UP DISSENSION AMONG BROTHERS."

PROVERBS 6:12-19

Anonymous said...

If Christian leaders don't intervene in tis matter..does it mean they rathere if we turn to non-christians for help eg. police/IRB etc? me thinks it is best to resolve tis within the Christian world, but if other christian bodies/leaders can't help us,looks like we hv no choice but to go to the authorities...

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Opps!!!

I made an error - it should read

"Dear TTG WARRIORS - your work has not gone unnoticed!"

My apologies...

Vijay
www.normangrubb.com

Anonymous said...

I cannot resist the temptation to agree with you "no choice?" Truly, if AOG or any christian organisation cannot intervene and exercise their spiritual role and God given authority, so be it! Then, we may have to turn to other authorities...Can a christian organisation live or exist above the law of God and law of the country?

I hereby, appeal one more time to AOG or any christian body, please response urgently to our grievances...we are crying within our hearts that calvary church is in such a state!

Anonymous said...

TTG worriers?!!! Hahaha! I am sure if they have learnt to cast all their cares upon the Lord, then they will not be worriers!

Yes! TTG WARRIORS! (lol!)

Anonymous said...

We were duped,

OTOH, i've read more than hotel's comments and i don't think theres anything wrong.

Mayb you guys are too paranoid. Seeing financial discrepancies in every nook and cranny.

Anonymous said...

ex-youth. pls get yr facts right before saying I am paranoid. It is THE truth.More than hotel's explanantion on why it is more expensive that what the hotel will charge us per person is: transport, speaker's expenses and materials.
Firstly,transport is on TOP of our church camp fees, I was NOT even talking abt transport costs as most of us pay for our own petrol to go there, we DO NOT mind that. So why count transport costs in?
Secondly, speaker's expenses also include love gift. But were we told that whenever they charge us the camp fees? FYI, the camp costs of SP and family are also factored into our camp costs, but was this told to us? No. And love offering is then collected again during the camp. Why do we need to pay for 2 love offerings?
Thirdly, materials. Most of the time, I only remember there being a campbook and a tag.tat is all.surely all this does not cost much??
Pls get yr facts right.

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