Thursday, November 6, 2008

The Importance of This Blog

BREAKING NEWS!!!

Once again, we wish to express our heartfelt thanks to Bro. Vijay, for his invaluable advice to us, which we appreciate very much. Here is his advice to us to COPYRIGHT the contents in this blog, which was posted as a Comment on November 9, 2008. We have since taken heed to his advice and has therefore included the COPYRIGHT clause in this blog. God is Good.

CT
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Bamboo Conspiracy said...

COPYRIGHT THE KNOWLEDGE CONTENT OF THIS BLOG
It is amazing, as a Christian researcher, I have been searching the Internet for sound case study material on Church Governance but never really found such detailed analysis as I found in this Blog. Here you can find a wealth of case study material on Church Governance on the following topics:

1. Church Organisation Structure
2. Church Constitution
3. Church Administration and Accounting
4. Church Staff Handbook
5. Conduct of Pastoral Staff
6. Truth, Transparency & Accountability

I strongly recommend that the Webmaster copyright all the knowledge content in this Blog to prevent plagiarism. This way anybody using material from this Blog must obtain written permission from the Webmaster before it can be published elsewhere. Furthermore, it will save guard the interest of Calvary Church and prevent people twisting the facts contained here for their own purposes.

I reiterate, this Blog has the potential to become the defector research resource for real life case study on Church Governance and the basis for the publication of 101 on Church Governance. All you mature and discerning bloggers could contribute towards this task as part of the Post Calvary Church gift to God’s Kingdom. I strong belief nobody can publish Best Practices Guideline on Church Governance without consulting this Blog.

In fact, any Church Governance publication that does not refer to this Blog has not done sufficient research and such a book would probably be worthless. Please protect the knowledge content of this Blog immediately.

Dr. Paramsothy Vijayan
www.normangrubb.com
November 9, 2008 7:32 PM
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CT & TTG give all PRAISE AND GLORY to our LORD JESUS CHRIST for giving us wisdom and guidance each step of the way since the beginning of this whole saga. We will continue to avail ourselves to our MASTER AND HEAVENLY FATHER, to be obedient and to allow ourselves to be of His service, to see to the fulfillment of HIS WILL AND PURPOSES here on earth. We also like to thank these brothers who have put in their Positive Comments with regards to this Blog.

To the rest of you, whom we have not quoted, we also thank you for your encouraging comments to help us along in this arduous journey. We reiterate our call here to everyone to BLOG RESPONSIBLY with the KINGDOM OF GOD in mind. Let us not be rumour-mongers but be truth-bearers. And do not forget to PRAY because prayer is the key to victory, prayer is the key that unlocks the door for God's intervention into our lives and into our church. PRAYER CHANGES THINGS.

Thank you and God Bless All.

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Bamboo Conspiracy said...

Dear Bro & Sis in Christ.

I am a member of a Christian research commission. I am in deep sorrow in reading of events that has been discussed in the blog regarding an historical church, Calvary Church Malaysia. I too suffer with the church because when a member suffers, the Whole body of Christ suffers with it. I surely don't want to see events that has been mentioned in the blog to happen to any other churches. Furthermore, I also pray that the sole purpose of the blog as mentioned in the purpose and objective statement is strictly maintained. Otherwise, the blog that started positively with clear objectives will lose its perspective and end up in ruin because of comments outside the objective. Those who comment must make sure what they write is within the objective and in the spirit of love, truth and accountability.

THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS BLOG.
As a Christian researcher let me be one of the first to say that, this blog is important - not only to members of Calvary Church but also to others in the Malaysian Christian community. I am all for disclosure in blogs. The blog is after all a neutral tool used for communication. Perhaps the Teh Tarek Group (TTG) never expected this blog to become so important when they first started it and was bold enough to speak the truth in love. As long as what is disclosed is done with the sincere desire to disseminate TRUTH IN LOVE – it will serve its purposes and receive the blessings of the Lord. Furthermore, it also provides a platform for those who are disheartened to express their hurts and feelings - rightly or wrongly.

This blog has done what I have been fighting to do for the past two years - the need for guidelines on Church Governance. There is a lack of transparency in Churches worldwide and in Malaysia. What I had failed to achieve in two years, this blog did within two months! - for the right or wrong reasons! In the past, I have at different occasions called for the need for Church Governance but every time, I was told, "it is a sensitive issue and it is best left for the individual churches to sort out its own internal problems". I kept hitting a stonewall - then came along this blog! It has now become the defector education forum (rightly or wrongly) on church governance and has enabled others to witness firsthand what can happen in a church when there is a lack of transparency, accountability and church governance (perceived or true).

As I said earlier, the blog serves its purpose. This I know because various Christians have approached me from other denomination regarding the issues at Calvary after reading the blog. The happenings in Calvary have become a revelation (rightly or wrongly) and have enabled the members, the BODs and the leaders in other churches to re-examine themselves in the light of events discussed in the blogs and correct any internal flaws that may exist in their present church structure and governance.

Take for example, the CIM Travelling Expenses disclosed in this blog. A cell leader from another church informed that he became very concerned in seeing the CIM Travelling Expenses and reading the blogs and comments. He said, at the next church leaders’ meeting, he is going to advice the church leaders to disclose in detail the church expenses and how it was used to expand God's kingdom. He wanted to make sure that church funds are used not only in travels and attending conferences but also in soul winning.

Similarly, another church member (the treasurer) had informed that he has decided to disclose additional information in the monthly church accounts for greater transparency. These are just two examples I know of how this blog has enlightened (rightly or wrongly) other Christians on the importance of Church Governance, transparency and accountability.

NOTE: I want to congratulate the brother for disclosing his name – that is transparency and accountability. He is willing to take responsibility for disclosing that information in the CIM Travelling Expenses and should be commended. He is willing to be answerable to the truthfulness of the content. This is want I want to see in the blog more and more – accountability.

My one and only concern is the long-term integrity of this blog. The integrity of this blog must be preserved at all cost for the sake of its educational value and the future unity of Calvary Church. Hence, the call for transparency and accountability in all those who blog. Remember, the present problem at Calvary Church WILL be resolved one day - only God knows the timing - but it will happen. THEN STARTS THE HARD WORK of bringing reconciliation, closure and inner healing for all – for there will be those who are hurt in each camp - the ones in support of the TTG and those who may not fully agree with all that the TTG represent (for the right or wrong reasons). Only the Lord knows the outcome.

Our spiritual fathers teach us that God is always of the side of Truth. During the Second World War, Christians in both camps, the Allies and the Axis, prayed but, God is always on the side of Truth and in the providence of God, Hitler was defeated. Then, commence reconciliation and closure.

From what I have heard, there is evidence, the Blog has positively (for the right or wrong reasons) contributed to Christians within and without Calvary Church. Nevertheless, we need to think of the wounded members when in the near future the current issues in Calvary Church are resolved and reconciliation commences.

For this reason alone, this Blog must preserve its integrity and transparency and hence the need for wisdom and spiritual maturity to make sure every comment we make does not return to hound us in the future. An unkind word, a hurtful remark, name calling – once written cannot be retracted. As long as the blog continues to expose SIN in the church and bloggers are willing to be accountable, the blog is on track. Let TRUTH prevail but in LOVE! We cannot run away from TRUTH or FACTS.

I believe that those who display information in the blog are mature and responsible enough to ensure what they report is based on TRUTH and FACT. It is rewarding to see some of the bloggers are willing to disclose their names when financial figures and charts are displayed. That is accountability and transparency.

Vijay
http://www.normangrubb.com/
vijay.newdawn@gmail.com

THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS AND NOT NECESSARILY THE VIEWS OF THE NECF.

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hm said...

I agree with bamboo conspiracy. We must always maintain our dignity and Christian attributes especially when we are hurt, angry or disappointed. We must not lash out in anger. Others may do so but we must not. Otherwise we would be reduced to their level of unchristian behavior. All my postings are in my name. I have not commented except when asked to respond, again always in my name.

Unfortunately just as I do not seem to be able to influence the BOD or the pastors, I also do not have much influence over the TT members. And I believe most of the extreme comments are not from the TTG because we always remind each other to maintain proper decorum when blogging on this site. The webmaster seems to have removed comments which are deemed unacceptable and I have to trust his/her judgment.

Hong Meng
November 2, 2008 6:36 PM

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Winslow said...
Well said, brother Jay.

You are absolutely right in reminding us that the going-ons at CC have become a revelation and have enabled our fellow brothers in other churches to re-examine themselves in the light of events discussed in CT, and hopefully in the process correct any internal flaws that may exist in their church structure and governance.

At times we Christians are afraid to either reveal the truth or see the truth revealed for fear that it will hurt others, and that it will split the local church. Sure, truth does hurt at times, and we are witnessing this in CC, but if we love God and His Church we need to be courageous to go through it, and if need be, bite the bullet, so to say. Even if we come out of this saga wounded, spiritually and emotionally, and hopefully not physically, it's certainly worth it if God's Kingdom is firmly established in our land. God's Mighty Holy Spirit certainly knows how to heal and restore His church.

Initially I was also hesitant to subscribe to the cause of TTG. By the way, there's no membership roll, and all are welcome as there are definitely no PRIVILEGES at all. But one caution though - be prepared for non-stop criticisms by those on the other side of the divide. But having seen events unfolding and truths being revealed in recent months, I can't help but have a strong witness in my spirit that the cause of the TTG - Truth, Transparency and Good Governance - will not split the church, by this I mean not only CC but more importantly the local Christian community.

I'm convicted that the cause championed by TTG will make the Church of Jesus Christ in this land even stronger as we soldier on to win this nation for our Lord. And having attended CC for more than 26 years and served full-time for more than 5 years, I'm equally sad that matters have developed to this extent. Nevertheless, I'm prepared to play whatever role necessary in ensuring TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY and GOOD GOVERNANCE, to be upheld not only by CC, but more importantly, by all churches and Christian organisations in this land. This, I believe wholeheartedly, is what our God requires of us all if we are to be His witnesses. Our God is definitely on the side of Truth.

God bless.
November 2, 2008 7:11 PM

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Joseph Gerard said...
Hi Bro Vijay, Very well said.

Though many would be hurt both spiritually and emotionally, but at the end of it all, let Truth, Transparency and Good Governance prevail especially in the church. As the saying goes, "Action speaks louder than words." We've been fighting against corruption, mismanagement of funds etc. for the running of our country. But what more as Christians, as a Church, we should show much greater examples within the church context itself.

I've heard from various individuals that the TTG have actually put CC in particular, and the Church in general, to shame when they started this blog. They questioned why must we wash our dirty linens in public. But I believe probably TTG have been pushed to a corner, and that they have no other choice, but to create this blog, Calvary Today. I would also believe that their intentions were to let the Calvarites know the "behind the scenes" (so to speak) happenings in CC. Kindly correct me if I'm wrong my fellow bros & sis in TTG.

I'm glad to hear from Bro Vijay that there are now some churches 'paying more attention' and calling for more transparency and good governance within their churches after reading this blog. This is the way to go. I pray that the Holy Spirit would continue to guide each and everyone of us in our words and actions. At the end of it all, may Truth & Justice prevail, as our Lord is the Lord of Truth & Just.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you,
and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake." (Matt 5:3-11)

God bless.
November 2, 2008 10:02 PM

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VIJAY said...

It appears there is indeed a split within the body of Calvary Church, Malaysia and there is urgent need for inner healing. Yet, who can bring forth that inner healing that will bring true union once again. The only one who can do this perfectly is the Head, that is our Lord, Jesus Christ and it is my declaration by faith that He will do this. How and when, only He knows.

From my understanding of the ways of God, the events that took place at Calvary was meant to happen. They are not by chance or because of second course etc. They were permitted for a purpose which only He knows, but it will turn out to be a blessing to many so that the whole body of Christ is blessed.

God always means evil for good as nothing can happen outside His predetermined counsel and foreknowledge. (See Genesis 50:20, Isaiah 10:5, Isaiah 53:10-11, Job 2:3, Job 12:16, Deuteronomy 8:5, John 19:7, Acts 2:23, Acts 4:26, 1Peter 2:21, Romans 8:23, Romans 8:36 and Jeremiah 25: 9-12 & 14. (from the Books "God Means Evil for His Good Purposes" and "God Unlimited" Sylvia Pearce and Norman Grubb)

As a member of the research commission, it is my humble opinion that there is a serious need to educate the congregation of churches in Malaysia on church governance. It appears there is a need for a 101 Church Management and Governance guideline provided to both leaders and members on basic function and duties of the the Board of Directors (BOD)the leadership and the rights of the congregation.

It should cover the selection of the BOD and the conduct of the senior pastor and other leaders, treasury function, internal control and audit, management of projects, the remuneration and welfare of church employees, the daily administration of the church etc.

Such a guideline will enable the leadership and the congregation to benchmark their church against best practise. I shall continue to believe that the Lord will bring together the necessary experts that such a 101 can be timely produced and freely made available so that each Christian can benchmark his/her church to the best practice in church management and governance. I humbly volunteer my services.

The word from my dear friend Sylvia for you and your wounded friends is shared below.

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From Sister Sylvia Pearce
"Any church crisis is an opportunity for God to come in and deliver in some miraculous way or another. Instead of fear, and unbelief, we stand in faith and watch God come through in victory. Many ministers and ministries here in America are misusing God's money in the same fashion as some churches in Malaysia are doing. God's church cannot be built on materialism and greed.
Unknowingly these leaders and ministers are leading God's people into bondage instead of liberation. I think the false teaching of "Prosperity" is corrupting many. God certainly wants to prosper or deliver us out of every crisis, but the devil has twisted true deliverance into the lust for fleshly comforts and pleasures.

The Malaysian church in crisis and confusion needs to understand that it is not ours to try to figure out how God is going to use evil for his good in their situation, because trying to analyze the situation will cause more confusion and take them away from simple faith in God. Like Moses, if they will simply sing their songs of victory, the Lord will show them the way.

Doing the will of God, as the Word says, is to be thankful for all things (I Thes. 5:18). And the power of sacrificial praise is well pleasing to the Lord." "Crisis is always our opportunity and an adventure of faith, Our only real danger in a crisis is that we stay in unbelief, resentment, bitterness, unforgiveness and pride.

Keep your inner eye on Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, and He will direct our paths. Once we learn God's ways we will have His wisdom on the subject. “Lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways acknowledge Him and He will direct your paths” God always shakes everything that can be shaken, so that only what is Christ will remain."

"God enabled Moses to overcome many insurmountable difficulties. God called Moses to lead His people out of Egyptian bondage. Moses survived numerous plagues, endured the hostility of his fellow Israelites and faced the vengeance of Pharaoh’s army. How did he endure such hardships?
We are told the secret in Hebrews 11:27: Moses “endured, as seeing Him who is invisible.” He saw through all the stuff to the invisible, yet almighty and ever present God. Moses correctly read the signs. He didn’t go by what He saw, but rather what God said. He got God’s instructions and then followed God’s leading. Therefore God enabled Moses to courageously face opposition, overcome obstacles, and endure hardships."

Sylvia D. Pearce
http://www.theliberatingsecret.org/

Submitted by Vijay
NOTE: THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS AND NOT NECESSARILY THE VIEWS OF THE NECF, MALAYSIA.
October 28, 2008 8:37 AM



75 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thank you for this blog.
One thing's for sure...although the comments on this blog may not neccesarily be the nicest of comments, it just shows that there is definitely something not right with the leadership in CC. Otherwise, why would there be so many disgruntled/unhappy/angry/depressed church members? Isn't it the job of the church to help the members who are feeling down? My 2 cents are that the church leadership should put trivial issues aside, ie.building a new church building or organizing anniversary dinners/charity functions and concentrate on getting the core problem fixed first, ie. the senior pastor.

Anonymous said...

Yes I agree with "the time is now"

BOD, Pastors do something. Don't you see anything wrong?

Do something before it is too late.

Anonymous said...

I am all for responsible blogging. And I am sure most of us are. It's just that when SP supporters like index finger, why so long, anonymous 2:33 am, peach, KL Boy, having fun,etc. infiltrate the blog & try to cause distraction & confusion by sounding so high & mighty and holier than thou, pointing the accusing finger(index, of course) at us, who are TTG supporters, then the discussions can get awry....

Anonymous said...

I, as Encyclopedia calvary compiled the following.

1. Give, you will receive life!

2. How many envelopes do we have that was parked behind our seats? green, white, blue, brown..(for money collection)

3. How many types of giving?
i. tithes, ii. love/sacrificial gift, iii. faith promise, iv. mission offering v. disignated gift
vi. pastor gift, vii. church building fund, viii. mission,
ix. others, x. fasting gift, xi. leap in faith.

4.Dont be a pew seated, get involve, serve and yet many ones are 'not renewed for their service' because not in compliance with church 'secret' agenda. Some are 'marginalised' ezpecially during family camp, on the last day, SP will say, all those who serve one way or other come out, those who did not serve, stay behind, then he will begin to talk and make you feel so guilty..at least that was how i felt!)

5. Youth, dedicate your lives to God! so parents, you are the best person to testify, are your youth spending most time serving in the church and spending little time for household??( this is for those parents whose children are very involved in church activities), you know best both youth and parent! check it out yourself..

6. our theology and understanding is that, God is only on our lips! why i said that? how many of us, had volunteered ourselves to help and reach out to the very poor? very illiterate! very unadorable? again, check it out yourself..( to serve in calvary church alone, we got no more time and energy for others, so to speak)

7. How many of us, go to calvary church on monday for cell group, wed for bible study, friday for prayer meet, sunday for worship service, some, got to go 2 times, saturday go youth , choir practice! meeting, briefing,
I must tell you, those days i used to come home, its like a hotel only, just to sleep after all these night, day time worked, nite time church.(some of the days maybe differnt)

8. So, what is mission? What is evangelism?

9. hey, the youth, how many of your friends had been to calvary church because you share with them and bring them to calvary?( wat is our true conviction in Christ?)

10. my point is; leaders, please, we have enough, it is time to revive and renew...

Anonymous said...

Wow! It sure is a long posting. I wish to highlight one comment made by Bamboo Conspiracy aka Vijay (who is a non-Calvarite believer who serve on NECF Research Commission) "this blog has done what I have been fighting to do for the past two years - the need for guidelines on Church Governance. There is a lack of transparency in Churches worldwide and in Malaysia. What I had failed to achieve in two years, this blog did within two months!"

Looks like CC is indeed a fountainhead church. As the events at CC will lead to better church governance which will be coming into our churches soon. CC will be in the forefront to bring better church governance.

Hallelujah! Vijay's comment has vindicated Calvary Today as Truth has prevailed through CT. Though the CC leadership may still want to sit on the Truth or sweep it under the carpet, all CT bloggers are now aware of the Truth for each day, that the CC leadership delay in admitting the Truth, will be another day that the Lord will reveal more Truths through the various "victims" & others hurt by SP's past misdeeds.

I, for one, have consistently reminded the BOD (& the APs present) in my 3 meetings with them that they should "fear God" & not "fear the man of God"; for men will always fail us but God will never fail us. Even SP admitted this, countless times, from the pulpit but alas does the SP of today practises what he preaches?

On the Sunday after the AGM, SP charged the BOD with various scriptures. One of them stuck in my mind - "let those called to teach, teach & let those called to serve, serve". Why then is SP doing both? Why can't SP just stick to teaching & leave the serving to the BOD? Why can't SP just practise what he preaches?

When I shared all this with the BOD on Sat 31st May, PW answered me that "I have viewed the scripture as if one can only be called to either teach or serve & not be called to do both; SP could be called to do both" or words to that effect.

I praise God (for He has said that He will put words in our mouth when we are in front of kings) for my spontaneous reply, in front of the BOD, to PW was that "SP's position as the chairman of the BOD was unscriptural as, in the Book of Acts, the 12 apostles stuck to teaching & did not appoint one of themselves to be the chairman of the 7 who were called to serve tables".

There & then, I pointed out that the mess at CC has been due to the flawed CC Constitution put through by SP in 1985 & I demanded that it should be changed to be more in line with scriptures. I enquired “where is SP’s faith in God that he should have to introduce a flawed constitution to have full control over CC?” Doesn’t SP have faith & trust in God that so long as he is doing a good job at CC then God will keep him in his job?

BF always retort “let God be god” when we try to point out SP’s misdeeds & shortcomings but does she practice what she say? Does BF speak to God in solitude to seek His will in all this? Or has she just been carrying out SP’s instructions faithfully & blindly? I have always held that “loyalty is fine but blind loyalty is pure stupidity”.

Apparently, BF asked 2 questions when she was invited to the 1st Teh Tarik meeting at KBU in March – “will I get into trouble with SP for attending?” & “will I be put behind bars for attending?” Looks like SP’s mind control is so strong that the BOD are fearful of him but they are not fearful of God. Is SP their god that they should be fearful of him? Are they so blind that they cannot see the conceit, deceit & misdeeds of SP? Or do they approve, knowingly or unknowingly, of SP’s conceit, deceit & misdeeds? If so, may God have mercy on CC for our BOD are not fit to be CC’s BOD anymore, they ought to resign en bloc & let God’s will be done at CC.

I am prepared to let bygones be bygones on the proviso that each of the BOD will do some soul searching & seek God’s will, through prayer, in all this mess at CC, plus after having heard God, they then let the Truth at CC to be presented as the truth, nothing but the whole truth, so that we can have healing & reconciliation at CC.

The BOD, APs & SP’s supporters claimed that they have prayed over this matter but have they heard God clearly over this issue? The TTG & their supporters have also prayed & they have heard God, loud & clear, that there must be better Church Governance & Stewardship, Transparency, Accountability & Truth must prevail in God’s house at CC. Since both sides are deemed to be praying to the same god, which side will God be on? Someone once said that God is always on the side of Truth.

Have the CC leadership been truthful through all this? Have they been faithful to God by resolving this matter in accordance with the scriptures? Does the scriptures provide for “criminal” lawyer & “forensic” auditor to be called in to resolve matters between believers? Why did the CC leadership not stick to the scriptures? Have they deviated so far from the scriptures that they are equally far away from Yahweh? Did the CC leadership prayed to the wrong god & thus they heard the wrong answer? May God have mercy on them. Amen!

All that I have stated above is with no malice & is only motivated by my god-given desire for Truth to prevail at our beloved CC. My fellow Calvarites, may I remind you that, regardless of the EGM, "The Truth is Still There". May God in His time reveal the Truth for all to see, may He remove the scales, from those who have been blinded, so that they too may see the Truth. Amen!

Anonymous said...

Dear encyclopaedia calvary,

Good observations.

One more point....why is Calvary Church NOT working with other A/G churches & promoting unity in the A/G movement? All these years Calvary Church is like so proud, & had kept herself independent, and aloof, & not only not working with other A/G churches but also not informing the members about other A/G activities like Prayer Commissions' Prayer Seminar for the past 2 years, & Central Distict Ladies Ministry programs, National Youth Ministry, etc.?

Anonymous said...

To "questions",

The character of an organisation often reflects the character of the head of that organisation. Think about that, so do you now know why others view CC as so aloof & "stuck up". Still don't know ah? Aiyo, why you so blur one ah? Just look at SP loh, isnt't he aloof & "stuck up" ah?

Not only did CC not work with other A/G churches, CC didn't even support the annual 40 day fasting & prayer organised by NECF (even when SP was the head of NECF) in the run-up to each year's National Day. We, in CC, were not even aware of this NECF initiative & some of us only found out from our friends in other churches. Imagine our embarassment, when our friends commented that "how come you don't know ah? Your SP is the head of NECF wat, so he should have told you mah?"

Does God still want PG to be our SP meh? PG already lost his shepherd heart somewhere along the way when he deviated from God's path & took the path to mammon. Most Calvarites know that SP's god is now mammon. Even newcomers to our Sunday services also get frightened by SP's blatant "demands" for money each week & more money & more money just so he can build his CCC.

Did God give SP a vision for CCC? Or did God give SP a vision for a church? Haven't SP heard or read the parable about the man who didn't count his cost & was left with an unfinished tower? If so, how can he still be our SP? If SP is aware, then all the more he can't be our SP as he didn't heed God's word but instead went on his own strength.

God, O God, do You still want to keep PG at CC meh? Are You still so patient with him who has flocked his sheep & who has used other visiting shepherds to flock his own sheep? O God, have mercy on us Calvarites & remove SP from our midst so that we can appoint someone else of Your choice, someone who has a shepherd's heart & who loves his sheep. Amen!

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

TTG BLOG: PRECURSOR TO PUBLICATION OF BEST PRACTICES ON CHURCH GOVERNANCE - TTG 101

Various bloggers have raised two relevant issues in the Truth, Transparency Governance (TTG) Blog:

1.Why are the various National Christian bodies and Leaders of other Churches ‘silent’ in the face of over whelming cries for help from Calvary Church members as evidence in the blog?

2.How should I manage or channel my offerings and gifts (all voluntary – for the Lord loves a cheerful giver) in view of the mismanagement of finance by the Church leaders?

HERE IS A SUGGESTION:

Lay aside your offerings/gifts and use it to create awareness on Church Governance for the rest of our Brothers and Sisters in various churches and denomination in Malaysia (and elsewhere as funds permit) by donating a copy of Best Practices on Church Governance to every Christian to create awareness on their BIBLICAL RIGHTS as Christian. Perhaps you may call it TTG 101!

The TTG Blog has sufficient material to lay the foundation for the book. There are various bloggers within CALVARY CHURCH with wisdom and spiritual gifting to undertake such a publication. This way the Church of God (not the building but the individual Christians in various churches and denomination) will send a clear message to Christian Leaders and National Organisations that if you cannot Shepard the sheep, the Lord will directly Shepard His beloved sheep by using His chosen army of sheep and make you irrelevant!

The TTG 101 will become the positive outcome of the present crisis in Calvary Church and a blessing to many Christians in Malaysia. This will be the contribution of the post Calvary Church to God’s kingdom. The present DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL experienced by Calvary members will be the NEW DAWN of blessing to many in the Post Calvary era.

Perhaps Calvary Church Malaysia will set the Global precedent on Church Governance and send a strong message – if those elected in responsible positions do not carry out their God assigned functions, then He will even make the “stones” and “donkeys” to speak and make them irrelevant. Let us get back to the way the churches operated in the early days of Christianity before it got bogged down by man made structures and practices.

Vijay

THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS AND NOT NECESSARILY THE VIEWS OF THE NECF.

Anonymous said...

1. i used to serve in the carpentar workshop as a guitarist and song leader, totally voluntary, no recognition type. i was quite disturbed and complained to my mum and remembered my mum said, 'its ok' dont recognize, nevermind lar, just serve God! you know, deep inside my heart, i felt very unfair, not even encouraged at all and i was thinking too, nevermindlar, i wont be here anymore, i am leaving for overseas soon, faithfully and enthusiastically i served as a little girl till i was 19.

Little did I know, calvary church already have this type of used and discard policies all these years, quite scary to think of it! therefore, young kids/youth, be prepared for all these treatment!

Of course, i also know a number of my buddies also got these type of treatment but remain quiet, because all of us were taught, serve God, dont complain, with all your hearts...

But, looking back, i think we human being also need a peck on the shoulder once in a while...

Anonymous said...

Hallelujah! TTG, i urge you guy to take up the proposal by Brother Vijay--TTG101! hey, brother.. you are such an encouragement and blessing. amen

Anonymous said...

Dear Dr Vijay,

Thank you are all the encouragment.

God in His loving Grace send you along to give that word of wisdom to us. Each time I read your comments, I praise God. This road ain't an easy road but truly this very moment HE carrys us in HIS arms.

As you have said,
Perhaps Calvary Church Malaysia will set the Global precedent on Church Governance and send a strong message.........
I believe that's what the fountain-head church must be all about. To be a Blessing. The waters flow from the fountain will get into the dry areas.

I thank God for you. I believe you are also praying for us, thank you.
I believe God will make everything beatiful in HIS time.

We do covet your prayers.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

THE WATCHMAN - We are our brothers/sisters keepers

DEAREST Ex-carpentar workshop/song leader.

I was deeply touched by your blog. It is for you and others like - you - the 'little children' (youth) that my heart aches the most. Every time I read a blog from the young ones I know that the Lord STANDS up to see which of His wounded lamb has been hurt because of UNRIGHTEOUS Shepards.

Hence, the Righteous Anger of many bloggers against those Watchmen who have failed in their duties. Should one of these young ones sin or leave the Faith, what does Jesus say to those Watchmen who could have acted to prevent the carnage but failed to do it because they fear the opinion of man more than God:

Refer to
Matthew 18:5-7
" 6 But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Ezekiel 33:7
"7 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself."

Christian Leaders are so quick and bold to make public statements regarding the Lina Joy case, the prohibition of certain words in the Bible and Gay marriages etc - but when Christian leaders sin right under their nose - they choose to be silent.

WILL WE EVER SEE A CHRISTIAN LEADER OR CHRISTIAN ORGANISATION BOLDLY MAKE A PUBLIC JOINT STATEMENT AGAINST SIN IN THE CHURCH. THE DAY WE SEE THAT HAPPEN - THAT WILL BE THE DAY REVIVAL COMES TO MALAYSIA!

Please don't give the excuse you need to be invited to make a statement. The WORD OF GOD and the HOLY SPIRIT living in you is your invitation!- provided you have the ear to hear!

To the Watchman this is what the Lord has published in the Daily Heaven!

"To the elected Christian BODs, Christian Leaders and National Christian organisations that CHOOSE to be silent in the midst of knowledge of sin in the Church - 'You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting.' (Daniel 5:27".

So REST young ones for the Lord is STANDING and has NOTICED your selfless faithful service even if the leaders have not. Know there are many bloggers who give you praise for your sacrifice.


Vijay
www.normangrubb.com

THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS AND NOT NECESSARILY THAT OF THE NECF.

Anonymous said...

YES! TTG 101....great idea! Let TTG & CT pave the way for a shaking up of the Church in Malaysia...expose the hidden deeds of darkness in the church so that the fear of the Lord will rule & reign in our midst.

Remember Ananias & Sapphira & what happened to them. During the birth of the Early Church, the Holy Spirit dealt swiftly with unrighteousness, lying & greed...SIN has to be removed so that the young church can grow & multiply.

God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap!

Anonymous said...

I have an idea why the Executive Committee of A/G Malaysia has chosen to remain silent...

1. SP is Emeritus something of A/G - he held the post of Gen. Supt of A/G Malaysia for 26 years

2. SK is chairman of the Board of Directors of BCM, and everybody knows he is also a SP loyalist and also now Missions Director of Calvary Church - SP took him along with him to India recently, remember? I wonder if SK sat in Economy class or did he join SP in the business class?

3. P.O., though a very nice man, has allowed himself to be duped by his mentors, SP & SAP. He is currently holding a position in the Central District Committee of A/G Malaysia

This is just a few points to show everyone why A/G Malaysia has taken the cowardly step of NOT dealing decisively with this issue...

Anonymous said...

Uh..Huh..AOG Malaysia, its time to do something ... Why when there is a need to raise fund for some AOG activities, you as a body reached out to the AG churches and others but when coming to dealing with Chuch conflict, why we, in calvary church did not see your response? eventhough 2 of the representatives were in our recent EGM in calvay church.

Time for 'awakening the giant within'!

Anonymous said...

will we be able to see a change happen in CC before year end or before the next agm? Many uninformed church members are having the idea that all is well now as there is no more actions by the TT Group and SP is reigning victoriously once more, judging by his sermons and conduct on the pulpit.

Anonymous said...

Whatever the outcome, many of us already lose confident and trust in our Sp and also the deacons,
not only that, we also lose trust with those leaders who appeared to think that everything is fine.

Someone in their comment mentioned before, it will be no body left...if these ugliness and hatred in the church is not resolve..

Looking at the way people quote scripture without any meaning...

Anonymous said...

I will sing of the mercies of the Lord forever, I will sing, I will sing. (2X) of the mercies of the Lord.

With my mouth, will I make known
Thy faithfulness, Thy faithfulness (2X) to all generations.

(Back to 1st stanza)

Anonymous said...

To: the time is now
All is not well, not well, absolutely not well, we had too much internal squabbles in the church now, those who support TTG are not feeling 'well treated', those who support SP, are like the tigers eyes, staring and poking at the TTG supporters and the TTG.

We need to have 'CHANGE'as soon as possible, lets all make it now and of course OUR LORD along with HIs Might change the whole situation now.

Anonymous said...

Dear all,

I know everyone is getting very impatient over the whole CC saga and want the matter resolved ASAP.

Sometimes I also get somewhat impatient and wish I could move the hands of God to act swiftly, but then I'm reminded again and again that IN HIS TIME GOD WILL MAKE ALL THINGS BEAUTIFUL. Amen!

So can I encourage all concerned Calvarites, myself included too, to be patient for God will surely act IN HIS TIME.

Fellow Calvarites, let's be patient as God is also patient with us.

God bless.

Anonymous said...

Dear bros and sis in Christ

With all the recent events unfolding in the world, it is becoming more and more evident that we are indeed living in the end times and Our Lord is coming very very soon for us.

So, let's keep our hearts right before Him and not let SP's misdeeds affect us to the point of being left behind. It is not worth it, our salvation matters the most. God will surely deal with SP in His time as Simpleman has so rightly put it, but we need to watch our own walk with God too.

Anonymous said...

Dear Obvious,
You are right. Like I've always told my children, it's not worth it to lose our salvation because of our anger with SP, SAP & BOD. Whilst we endeavour to set right the wrong, we must also forgive the Guneratnams for all the wrongs they have done, as well as the BOD for their betrayal. Ultimately, they will have to stand before God to give an account of their misdeeds and corruption, and it will be a time of fear and great trembling. You can be sure SP would not dare to give the LOTT treatment to the Judge of all the earth!

Anonymous said...

THEY THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD SHALL RENEW THEIR STRENGTH
THEY SHALL MOUNT UP WITH WINGS AS EAGLES
THEY SHALL RUN AND NOT BE WEARY, THEY SHALL WALK AND NOT FAINT
TEACH LORD, TEACH LORD TO WAIT

Anonymous said...

Intererstingly, these days, friends will have this new topic in our conversation:

1. Hey, how come I didnt see you
last Sunday?

2. Which church are you visiting
this Sunday?

3. Who is preaching this Sunday?
answer: SP
answer: eee..dont want 2 listen
2 him!
4. Hey, I heard xxx left the
church.. !

5. Dont Leave now, stay on..
What a joke, we are in such a predicament..sigh..

Anonymous said...

u are rite,who is preaching...but hopefully,our conversation will soon change to:

1. When is our new senior pastor taking over?
2. Who will we vote in for the new board of deacons?
3. With the excess missions/church funds (since we no longer hv to pay SP & his whole family their 5 figure salaries per person), which organization/small church shall we give the funds to so we can help these needy people?

Soon,soon I hope!

Anonymous said...

Dear Bro and Sis in Christ,

Thought of sharing this with you.

(Matthew 12:1-21) The Message

1-2 One Sabbath, Jesus was strolling with his disciples through a field of ripe grain. Hungry, the disciples were pulling off the heads of grain and munching on them. Some Pharisees reported them to Jesus: "Your disciples are breaking the Sabbath rules!"

3-5Jesus said, "Really? Didn't you ever read what David and his companions did when they were hungry, how they entered the sanctuary and ate fresh bread off the altar, bread that no one but priests were allowed to eat? And didn't you ever read in God's Law that priests carrying out their Temple duties break Sabbath rules all the time and it's not held against them?
(Why is TTG so rigid on the way SP runs CC or CIM? It mission is of the same. If SP wants to do it his way so be it. Point to note, not everyone supports TTG. Who are you to ask SP to step down? Are you the keepers of the law? If you are, read this portion of scripture properly.)

6-8"There is far more at stake here than religion. If you had any idea what this Scripture meant—'I prefer a flexible heart to an inflexible ritual'—you wouldn't be nitpicking like this. The Son of Man is no lackey to the Sabbath; he's in charge."
(If you want to be keeper of the law, I suggest you don’t. God wants flexibility not rituals. Yes, some of SP spending is questionable but he is doing God’s work the way he knows how. You want to be rigid about the way he does things? Who is the judge, you or God? Is he answerable to your rigid ways or be flexible in God’s ways in bring the best possible outcome for the Great Commission?)

9-10When Jesus left the field, he entered their meeting place. There was a man there with a crippled hand. They said to Jesus, "Is it legal to heal on the Sabbath?" They were baiting him.
11-14He replied, "Is there a person here who, finding one of your lambs fallen into a ravine, wouldn't, even though it was a Sabbath, pull it out? Surely kindness to people is as legal as kindness to animals!" Then he said to the man, "Hold out your hand." He held it out and it was healed. The Pharisees walked out furious, sputtering about how they were going to ruin Jesus.
(Despite all your critics, I believe SP is still going about sharing the way he knows how. You want to judge that? Will you want to be the one prosecuting him at the end of the day like the Pharisees?)

15-21Jesus, knowing they were out to get him, moved on. A lot of people followed him, and he healed them all. He also cautioned them to keep it quiet....
(Ever wonder why SP may choose to keep quite?? This is why. Because despite what he does or say your critics won’t stop because you have a negative impression on him.)

The question now is, what do the TTG really want? When will TTG really stop? Is TTG the want to make judgement for the future and action of SP? If SP is wrong, but confess will TTG stop? (If not, where is your compassion and are you clouded by hatred)What is your real aim (if it is to kick SP out, I suggest to recheck your objective)?

This is not a comment to condemn TTG or to bring TTG a bad name but rather to remind TTG of the real reason it is doing this and to ask a question whether TTG is doing it out of hatred or even trying to be keepers of the law. If it is so be wary, Jesus proved the keepers of the law wrong after all. I’m in no position to judge SP what more men. PLZ be wary of what you are doing. Take care.

God Bless

Anonymous said...

To Caution!!!,

Great sharing. 100% agreed with your insight. Thank God that you are moved to put down a very insightful opinion on this whole mess. You are definitely not the first & the last to share this view on the TTG. Infact, the way they talk & react in EGM really looks like the pharisees in the olden days of Jesus.

But be ready to be bashed by TTG & it's members for accusing you for twisting God's Word & applied it wrongly. They'll categorize you as SP supporter & disregard whatever you had just wrote here.

I just want to put down a word of support & encouragement that you are not alone to hold such view. I hold similar view as you cause I also found it is what God is telling me too.

Anonymous said...

To Caution and Annoynmes 2.52

Be careful not to apply Scriptures without thot. D

Yes we should not condemn but ask your heart whether what SP is doing is correct? He used church money as he wishes, he runs the church as if he is the owner.

Why has he not spoken in spite of all these dirty linen being washed = ask - is he not scared that there will be more worms if he spoke out and people ask questions.

if SP comes out and smooth things out at the beginning and make sure the members understand and healing takes place - do you think things would come to this stage.

Everyone has a heart to forgive and show love but is SP showing love and forgiveness. He is not turning the other check - he is retailating and with a lot of venom (it is now checked with what CT had revealed)

If SP does not want to be warned and do something now with God using people to caution him, is he waiting for God to take judgement. God is not mocked you know.

Anonymous said...

Caution!!!
Are you joking? Are you judging? Are you sure SP is truly doing God's work? ARe you sure he is sincere? Are you not aware how much destruction he had caused? Are you still so naive? Are you still so pure in your heart to believe SP is innocent? Are you aware that the authorities are coming after him? Are you trying to put the blame to TTG? Are you not having simple basic standard of accountability to yourself and God? Are you qualify to use the scripture to teach here?.. Are you the only one who had supported SP family 5 figures salary each? Are you not tire just because you think you alone is the holier than thou?

Anonymous said...

I am not judging you all. For a moment, take a look at the way you are replying. Is it Christ like? Am I to follow what you say in the tone you are saying it? I'm not here to cause anger but rather just check what you are doing. If SP is wrong (IF) shouldn't he be forgiven? Should he ask forgiveness from you or God? (God I presume). When TTG make a mistake about posting the accounts, I am sure (or I hope) they ask for forgiveness (which it's the way it should be. If you did GREAT!! PTL!!). They did not write a letter to the church or SP to ask for forgiveness (I presume). So their action is only accountable to God. In the same way, should SP be asking forgiveness from TTG? (Again presuming he is wrong). He is accountable to God and His relationship to God is what matters. Again I'm not here to judge but rather to throw caution with love not wanting any party (whether the church or TTG or anyone else) to take rash action and regret later. If you so decide to cont to be harsh. I will stop commenting. But I encourage you to pray for SP and for yourself. For open hearts to accept one another and not to pray againt SP.

*be careful.. Thanks for your advice on not simply applying scripture. I've given it some thought before writing. It is not something I wrote in the spur of the moment.*

With the love of Chirst.

Anonymous said...

Caution, u say u r not judging but merely giving yr 'godly insight' but yet u ARE indeed judging the TTG and likening them to be pharisees. is that not judging?

On your comments:
"Why is TTG so rigid on the way SP runs CC or CIM? It mission is of the same. If SP wants to do it his way so be it. Point to note, not everyone supports TTG."

You sound so gullible to say that if SP wants to do it his way, so be it. Exactly, SP is doing it his own way and not GOD's way..which is what caused this mess in the first place. He is moving in the flesh and not in the Spirit. Point to note, most of us do not support SP and do not respect him anymore.

"If you want to be keeper of the law, I suggest you don’t. God wants flexibility not rituals. Yes, some of SP spending is questionable but he is doing God’s work the way he knows how. You want to be rigid about the way he does things? Who is the judge, you or God? Is he answerable to your rigid ways or be flexible in God’s ways in bring the best possible outcome for the Great Commission?)"

NO ONE is being the keeper of the law here,ok.And no one is being rigid. But if u consider SP's misusing of God's funds for his own pleasure and purpose is considered as flexibility, then I question your godly insight. SP is not only answerable to God but also accountable to the church members for how he handles the church funds.

"Despite all your critics, I believe SP is still going about sharing the way he knows how. You want to judge that? Will you want to be the one prosecuting him at the end of the day like the Pharisees?)"

And again I say, can u so strongly say that u are not judging the TTG with such a comment as the above? And if u think spending hundreds of thousands of ringgit to fly about attending seminars and conferences is the best way to use God's money instead of giving it to poor local churches and the needy, then I am sorry to say, you are dead wrong.

"(Ever wonder why SP may choose to keep quite?? This is why. Because despite what he does or say your critics won’t stop because you have a negative impression on him.)"

Firstly, pls DO NOT ever compare our dear Lord Jesus to SP. I rebuke u for even giving that example. And that is NOT the reason why SP is keeping quiet. He is keeping quiet because he has no good answer and explanation to give for all his misdeeds. Instead of trying to settle this whole issue by explaining to us all why he did what he did, he rather sit back and let the BOD do the fighting for him and constantly condemn those who question while he is on the pulpit. Good shepherd? I think not.

So I would suggest u also be careful in your advice to the readers of this blog as what you have mentioned does not seem to jive.

God Bless

Anonymous said...

Be Careful at 12.01 pm

Please use another name as I am Be Careful at 6.57.

Call yourself "be careful 2". We already have too many "annonymous" and we are so confused who is speaking

Anonymous said...

Oops, sorry..be careful,didn't realize that was your name. Ok,i shall be 'Be careful 2"...

Caution, one more thing, in yr 2nd post,you were saying "If SP is wrong (IF) shouldn't he be forgiven?" He can certainly be forgiven IF he repents of his wrongdoings...so the question is, will he repent? Coz if he admits he is wrong, we will surely forgive him. PTL!
As for the TTG posting the accounts, at least they had the guts to admit the error, but did SP EVER admitted his errors?? The answer is No. Let's stop with the "SP is only accountable to God" excuse. SP is the senior pastor of CC and he should ALSO be accountable to his church members. And let's stop using the "I am not judging you all" and "I'm not here to judge" when in fact you are. Let your yes be yes and your no be no pls. Be careful with your advices once again.

Anonymous said...

To All

Consider the below. It is not wrong to correct SP when he is doing wrong.

Jesus and the Apostles were very bold and rebuked and condemned evil. They even openly rebuked people in the church for doing evil, in order to strengthen the church. There were examples when even physical force was used to correct them.
In Nehemiah 13:25, Nehemiah cursed, struck and pulled out the hair of the Jews who rebelled by having pagan wives. There were other incidences where he forced people to stop lending money at interest, (Nehemiah 5:10-13) and threatened people for breaking the Sabbath (Nehemiah 13:19-21). Nehemiah forced people to do the right thing. Jesus Also overturned the tables of the moneychangers in the temple (Matthew 21:12-13).

Rebuking a sinner, exposing corruption, correcting someone in love or disciplining ones children is not judging wrongfully. If so, Jesus and the Apostles who were our example to follow would have been in error. I believe that the Devil is lying to people to convince them that Biblical correction is judging. Therefore, many believe that it is fine to go on sinning and not obey God by warning others. This is the opposite of the example set by the Apostles.

Anonymous said...

Dear caution!!!

It sickens me the way you distort scripture! Are you saying that SP has the right to break the Sabbath laws? You wrote...

"...And didn't you ever read in God's Law that priests carrying out their Temple duties break Sabbath rules all the time and it's not held against them?

Talk about distorting scripture!!

SP is stealing church mission funds for his own use, SP is lying through his teeth, SP is abusing his position as shepherd, throwing his weight around like he actually thinks he is a CEO when God has not called him to be a CEO! SP is fleecing the members of Calvary Church for his own evil gain!

It's not as simple as breaking the Sabbath rules....! SP is a con-man, disguised as a shepherd, he's a real wolf in sheep's clothing!

And please don't compare Jesus with SP! Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath, NOT SP! Are you guys idolising SP, ah?

Anonymous said...

To all concerned calvarite and TTg

aiyah, all of us too nice lar, why not just sign petition to ask SP to resign or to be romoved since he served past retirement age... quarrel bcoz of him, not worthy mann.. if he is no more in calvary, all quarrels 'kou tim' lar..

Anonymous said...

Just getting fed up of the whole silence drama and 'everything is alright' in Calvary Church. The Sunday Services are dry. SP preaching has been out of context. All the pastors and Board of Deacons just seem to be silent. Life is still going on as usual Sunday after Sunday.
Instead of just asking the Board of Deacons and SP to resign, ALL the pastors and assistant pastors of Calvary Church should RESIGN as well. Some of you have been with the church for too long. You have become dead wood, not able to stand up for what is right and what is the Whole Truth.
BOD, SP and ALL pastors and assistant pastors MUST RESIGN!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Hi caution!!!

It takes me quite a while to read up articles and comments on this site before participating. I suggest you do so. The facts brought up by "TTG" are valid and legitimate. More so is the moral responsibility behind the revelation. May God continue to strengthen these brothers and sisters, keep them focus and bestow upon them immeasurable amount of His Love and kindness.

I can attest to what have been raised from my past experience with the leadership of the church. As this is not the right forum to disclose and moreover it does not edify, I shall refrain from cluttering the blog space. But I suppose you would notice that we are always "very" late in response to mission needs, e.g. Indonesia Tsunami, Johor flood, China Earth Quake, Myammar... Are we deliberate or simply incompetence.

I am speaking from ground zero.

Anonymous said...

To Caution!!!! @ 11.15. "When TTG make a mistake about posting the accounts,...they ask for forgiveness ... They did not write a letter to the church or SP to ask for forgiveness... So their action is only accountable to God."

1st CT & TTG, realised it was a consolidated figure that could lead to misintepretation - not wrong (mistake) figure, ok.

2nd they they corrected the situation by posting the FULL FIGURES - they did something about it.

3rd they apologised to the readers because the readers misinterpreted the simplified version. They did not wrong SP becoz it is still the right amounts used by SP for travelling. So why must apologise to SP?

You said, "In the same way, should SP be asking forgiveness from TTG?" Which post did you read that TTG wanted SP to apologise to them??? You must blog like me, give specific quotation so that we know exactly what you are saying and who you are quoting. Unless, you just make sweeping statements and then let us misinterpret your statements to confuse all the innocent readers and the new readers to this blog.

You said, "He is accountable to God and His relationship to God is what matters." The Bible says, we all call GOD our ABBA FATHER. We are joint heirs with Jesus to the Kingdom of God. That makes us family (like it or not). So if he took money from the family treasury without the rest of the siblings knowledge, shouldn't SP need to apologise to us all in the family. Unless SP thinks he is the father and we are the "illegitimate" children in the CC family. If so, then he has really LOST IT ALL.

Then he must practise what he preached this morning,

- ASK GOD TO FORGIVE HIM
- PICK UP HIS BED
- AND GO!!!

Anonymous said...

Speechless totally speechless. If you say I'm blind sighted. Look at your comments. Please reflect. This will be my last comment. It will a waste of effort to try to convince another person who is also blind sighted from another perspective. For those edifying comments, I say thank u. I'll cont to pray for all belivers and the church regardless of their view point for God to show His way. God Bless.

:)

Anonymous said...

Dear Caution!!!

Please keep to your promise that this would be your LAST comment! We've had enough of your mindless twisting of scripture, your senseless remarks and your spiritual blindness! There is none so blind as he who refuses to see [the truth]!

Anonymous said...

caution....my parting words for ya, make sure u pray for GOD'S will to be done and NOT for SP's will to be done.

Anonymous said...

Dear Caution

What "speechless totally speechless'? You mean you talking not blogging?

This also cannot take, how to be a blogger man?

Anonymous said...

Aiyoo, why not TT members just initiate another signing of petition to require SP & BOD to resign or step down. We will see whether the majority in CC support that or not. No point keep arguing.

Anonymous said...

dear anonymous,if only it was tat easy la. remember our earlier petitions which went MIA? coz the deacons threw it away. u think they wont do the same with this one if we were to sign to ask SP to resign???

Anonymous said...

Yes, I also heard that the deacons threw the petitions away. In fact, I heard that it was SP who instructed them to throw it away.

We don't need to ask SP to resign mah. We just need to ask the BOD to hold an EGM to ratify SP's appointment beyond his 60th birthday now that we are aware of the Staff Handbook.

BOD, do your duty or else step aside for others who have more guts than you.

Aiyo BOD! Man also you takut, like that how to face God, especially since you have failed Him by not fearing Him.

Anonymous said...

Change the key to SP office.
Pass a board resolution to remove him
No key, no office, how to work?

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous

No key, no office, still can work.

SP's boss so he can ask Pastor RY to vacate his cubicle so that he can operate from there.

Pas. RY can then operate from meeting room.

Remember, Pas. RY is SP's fall guy.

Anonymous said...

Dear Anonymous 12.44am,

Your method won't work. SP is smart. He will instruct FL to change the changed lock, and he will have access to his room again.

I think BOD should sack him, and get court injunction barring him from getting 100 metres near the church office.

For church service make him sit in the back portion. That will teach him a lesson.

Anonymous said...

Dear NeNe,

Your suggestion also won't work, at least when it comes to church service.

Remember, Pas. RY is in charge of ushering, and when he sees SP, he will be so scared that he will usher him back to his usual seat upfront.

Maybe we should remove SP's usual seat, and also the one SAP always sits.

Anonymous said...

dear all, don't u remember tat the pastors tried to threaten us the other time..that if SP resigns, all of them will also resign. So when tat happens and we get new pastors (the old ones are of course welcomed to continue working if they will humble themselves and admit that they were wrong abt SP all this while), the new pastors can pray for SP and do deliverance on him so he will at least repent of his sins. then he can start all over again and become an usher or something.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like a political party. When the leader goes, his people go with him.

How sad.

Anonymous said...

Dear Ex-Usher

Sorry to say you are behind time. Ushering ministry is now under TO and not RY. If you notice TO always sits in the last row of seats in CCDH when he's not preaching. Maybe he can invite SP to sit with him, haha. Then SP can welcome those people who walk in late and show them where to sit.

Anonymous said...

yalor, hahaha!

when SP gets kicked out, we wil show him mercy and hire him back as Chief Usher, maybe with a monthly allowance! After all, he still has to feed his chauffeur & bodyguard, mah!

My giflfriend, ah, saw them one day at the Pantai Medical Center, arriving in their posh, luxury car, accompanied by chauffeur and bodyguards, velly implessive lah! At first she (my gal friend, lah) was wondering which VIP (politician or royal family) has arrived, & man-o-man, was she shocked to see SP & SAP behaving like VVIP, acting so snobbish & aloof! They got lots of AIRS, sombong betul, lah! My gal friend thought to herself, "How can pastors behave like this?" Sure good laugh (chun ho siew!), hahaha!

Anonymous said...

Looks like Pakatan Rakyat & Barisan
here.
All of you are like a bunch of Clowns !

Anonymous said...

the mp above sounds like a sore loser...poor fella

Anonymous said...

My beloved humble servants in Christ

I humbly beseeched thee that we should confine this in a private manner and please refrain from washing our dirty linens in the world.

“Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap” Gal 6:7

We all all like the ostrich hiding its head under the sand whenever fellow brethen inquire us of our affair.

Having written so much, we as members should give " the anointed one" a chance to be heard.

Leave out all the rest as they are like David not touching "the anointed one"

Everyone is innocent until proven
quilty.

Let us unite in the unison of humble servants doing the positive by EGM

1) Suspend "the anointed one"

2) Put a vote of confidence or no confidence on "the anointed one"

3)Declare the assets of "the anointed one"

4) Have a Domestic Inquiry carried out

5) Suspend the BOD also

6) Have a re-election . The church
will decide who to elect.
We do not want puppets in the Church including the Auditors.

7) Have the AOG council to take over the affairs of CC until all the matters have been sorted out.
(note: we are perturbed why no one from the General Coucil has not intervened so as to prevent further damage )Where is integrity ?

8) Existing Pastors will be called as witnesses during the Domestic Inquiry

We should all unite in the body of Christ

We are a laughing stock to our adversary.

Remember
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 1 Pet5:8

Its really sad that this matter has exploded to such a large extent.

CT & Brethens. Let us act before
CC becomes history and a white elephant.

Let us show our Love & Care

"In His Mighty Name of Jesus "

Anonymous said...

Hmmm, it's a good suggestion to suspend SP and BOD, pending a formal inquiry into the whole mess.

But please don't call SP "anointed one," even if you are saying it jokingly....it's a mockery of the word "anointed"!

Remember, God is not mocked!

BTW, thank you brother Vijay for your wise counsel and your fine brotherly support & encouragement throughout our ordeal.

Anonymous said...

Dear Sure Good Laugh,

SP got bodyguards, are you sure or not? Chauffeur got but bodyguards, are you 100% sure or not?

Anonymous said...

Dear Historian,

SP was an "anointed one," once upon a time.

Like Samson, SP's anointing left him, not because his hair was cut, but when he started twisting scripture and telling half truths.

Anonymous said...

Dear Ah heng...maybe RY is SP's bodyguard..hahah. if any bullet is shot at SP, RY has to jump in front and take one for SP..ahaha

Anonymous said...

Dear Sure Good Laugh,

I think it's a case of mistaken identity. Maybe your friend saw RY and thought he was SP's bodyguard. You know, RY is quite stout, so it could be a case of mistaken identity.

By the way, I doubt RY would take the bullet if the worst happens....

Anonymous said...

Dear Ah Heng,

My gal friend say 'bodyguards', lah! Two tough-looking, gangster-type men walked with SP & SAP into the hospital..

why so hard for you to believe? I remember long, long time ago when Pastor B.T. was stil with Calvary, he also doubles as SP's bodyguard,mah! Pastor B.T. was gangster before he became Christian so he knows how to be bodyguard, lah!

Why SP needs bodyguards?
1. He got many money
2. He got many sins
3. He hurt many people
4. He can't trust God to protect him, loh!

hahaha! Sure good laugh! Chun Ho Siew!

Anonymous said...

Dear Hurt, I agree fully with what you said, BUT, who is going to listen to us?

Fom the AGM to EGM to now November still SP & BOD pretend like nothing is happening.

Even 2day's NST, they come up with Article on CCC declaring to the public that the CCC is for everyone not only for our church - "all Malaysians living in the Klang Valley". You believe them? Have you seen any other church or christian organisation use our current premises for their use. Even BCM, do not hold their Graduation Excercise in CC - WHY?

Every Sunday so many empty chairs yet they can declare we got "over 10,000 members". What can we say of the person who gave this press interview - don't know how to count or have no qualms about telling half truth?

So you think they are interested in being "suspended"? I think not. We have to continue to "wash dirty linens" I am so sorry. Because up till today, they are still keeping up with "soiling more linens".

Anonymous said...

Dear Sure good laugh,

Maybe your friend saw the other RY too, you know who I mean, as he's quite stout but taller than the first RY.

I still think your friend was mistaken-leh!

Anonymous said...

My beloved Humble Servants of Christ.

If nobody listens, then we do one step at a time until the BOD trembles.

1) Boycott the 2nd Service at DH

2) Boycott the evening service at
DH

3) Boycott the 1st Service so that
the Tape will show an empty pew
at the satellites

4) Boycott the satellite

We have to pass a resolution and amemdnments to the constitution

Let us uphold the age-old adage

United we stand, Divided we fall.

We like to see the Flag of Christ flying in CC with pride and dignity

Let the guilty one exit with grace and honour

Onward Christian soldiers marching as to war.

We all will shout with a battle cry of Victory for the Lord !

Anonymous said...

Dear Ah Heng,

A thousand apologies. You may be right...hehe! I asked my gal friend again, she said again, two bodyguards but one may be the driver (or chauffeur).
My gal friend attended Calvary few times only - she prefers to attend SIB, lah - so she could not recognise whether the other one is RY or the other RY!! Never mind, lah!

Anonymous said...

So as not to disconsegrate God's Holy portion

Malachi 3:10 'Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse'

we shall designate all the tithes
and love offerings to AoG General Council to hold in trust for CC
so that it shall be channelled to the correct dept.

An Independent Committee from General Council would have to oversee the matter.

Anonymous said...

Dear hurt

We cannot boycott church services.
Keep the Sabbath day holy.
We will continue to attend church and if possible bring along a devotional book to enrich yourself.

As for the resolution, TTG submitted 7 resolutions before EGM and all the 7 resolutions were thrown out,and BOD said they are moving forward!!!!!!

Wonder how they move forward without any amendments to church constitutions.

Actually, we hope AG Council will step in to do their part.
Heard that some already wrote in to AG Council, but it will be good if more people write in to AG

Anonymous said...

Mat12:11
“If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12 How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”

1) Boycot one service but you can attend another service but there is no spirit left as glory has the pulpit

2) As Lost Sheep said, hold on to all the Tithes and Oferings

That will bend the leaders to their knees.

We rather toss our crumbs to the dogs !

Anonymous said...

Dear All

It is a wonder how BOD and the leadership can keep silent and pretend that nothing is happening in CC. As church member, we can do something about this.

We can stop giving. Yes PLEASE STOP GIVING. If every one of us stop giving, then they will see that no money is coming in. So they will have to do something. No money means the church cannot function.

So, do your part. STOP GIVING!!!!

Anonymous said...

yes..we cannot boycott church service, otherwise foong ling the headmistress is gonna call u up and cancel yr name from the membership. yes,bring yr own devotional book and read it while sp is preaching n if he says something blasphemous or unscriptural, walk out of the service as a sign of protest. and...yes, stop giving to calvary!

Anonymous said...

OK Lets Unite and Stop Giving

then we see how Holier Than Thou

does.

Anonymous said...

Let them have a Silent Night this

Christmas when BOD asks for

Christmas Love Offerings

Anonymous said...

Stop giving is not the way to get their (Sp & BOD) attention, its THE ONLY WAY!