At the recent EGM, a question was posed to the Board of Deacons on the retirement age of Senior Pastor (SP) and Bro Patrick Wong elaborated that under our church constitution, there is no retirement age specified for SP. This deacon tried to hoodwink the congregation by side-stepping the ‘real question’. Everyone who has read our church constitution knows that the constitution does not have any reference to the retirement age for SP. The question was not whether the constitution provided for SP’s retirement but what was the retirement age for SP. In other words, what is our church policy with regards to the retirement age for SP.
In his answer, Bro Patrick did not mention that our church has a Staff Handbook which addresses this issue. Under Section 2 of the handbook, ALL the staff of the church are classified into 3 categories namely,
1) Pastoral and Ministerial Staff
2) Office Staff
3) General/Technical Staff
Under the description of “Pastoral and Ministerial Staff”, it is stated that “Senior Pastor heads the pastoral team (pastoral and ministerial team) comprising staff categories such as Senior Associate Pastors, Associate Pastors, Assistant Pastors and Ministerial Staff.”
It is obvious that SP as the head of the Pastoral and Ministerial Staff, falls into this first staff category. He is certainly not part of the Office Staff or General/Technical Staff.
Section 11 (1) states that the Retirement Age of all Church Staff, with the exception of Pastors, will be 55 years of age. Section 11 (2) states that the Retirement Age for Pastors will be 60 years of age.
(Click to enlarge image. To return to this page, Click "BACK" at top left hand corner)
Both SP (who is 63 this year) and Sis Petrina (who is 64 this year) have crossed the retirement age specified in the handbook.
The questions which needs to be answered are:
1. Were there contracts signed for the extension of employment of both SP and his wife?
2. Were the contracts approved by the Board of Deacons?
3. Was SP’s extension contract brought before the church members at an AGM or EGM to be approved as required under the constitution? (None of the TTG members and other members remembers such an event) His extension as Senior Pastor, may be NULL AND VOID, if not approved by members at an AGM or EGM.
4. What are the terms of their contracts?
Not too long ago, a long-serving church staff retired at age 57 (after her retirement was initially overlooked by the church administrator) and SP offered her re-employment at less than half her last drawn salary. She left in total disgust, hurt and disillusioned. We hope that SP has applied this same condition to himself and his wife and are now drawing not more than half the amount of their last drawn salaries. If not, then they are nothing but pure hypocrites. Pastors as our leaders should always follow God’s principle of using the same measure in everything they do. They must practice what they preach.
Now, back to our dear Bro Patrick. It is now clear that Bro Patrick, by answering the way he did, was trying to deceive the 800 members present at the EGM. He has been on the Board of Deacons since 1975 and therefore, he cannot claim ignorance of the Staff Handbook, which was probably approved by the deacons. And SP, by keeping mum, during Bro Patrick’s answer is guilty of abetting the deception.
We reiterate our call on Bro Patrick to resign. He was not man enough to resign when we first called on him to do so in our 8th Update. We hope he has enough integrity left in him to do so now.
As for SP, who has lost most of the members’ respect, we beseech him to leave gracefully so that Calvary Church can be restored to its former glory. There has been enough pain, hurt and lives destroyed in this whole saga.
We recognise that he has done a lot for Calvary Church in his early 30-odd years. We acknowledge his contribution and we thank God for him but it is time for him to let go. It’s time for him to move on to the next phase in life. All we ask is that he returns Calvary Church back to God!
234 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 234 of 234 Newer› Newest»To overseas ex-youth: camp will be on the 15th-18th of december, in PD.
To we were duped: camp booklets are not cheap btw. unless one gets sponsors, then it will be cheaper. just so you know there are other materials other than campbooklets and tags. for various games & activities, materials are needed as well.
And in regards to the youth camp, I believe that the camp committee has tried their very best at trying to get the best for the youths. One thing for sure is, the camp is going to be held during the peak season = prices are more exp. also you have to realize that they are needing to accommodate for a large number of youths and not many places can accommodate such large numbers. would you want our youths to pay much lesser and end up having camp in a rundown place? or rather at a place that is unsafe? after all times are bad and things don't come cheap nowadays. a little pricey but it's worth the money and experience.
the camp speaker is confirmed - Jeremy Seaward from Singapore.
red, as far as I remember, we did not have games for EVERY family camp.so how do u account for that? And how expensive are the booklets and tags? Pls state cost per booklet and tag and I will try and see if what I have paid for my camp fees before this adds up.
Dear Vijay
Regarding your questions
1. National Christian Organizations and Christian Leaders must be vocal when they are aware of spiritual abuse in a church.
2. Their moral and spiritual conscience should direct them to interfere
These are my reasons in relation to what is happening in CC. As a member of CC for the last 27 years, I really see the need for National Christian Organizations to step in when they are aware of spiritual abuse in a church. In the case of CC, SP is the dictator. It truly hurts me deeply to know the abuse that is happening in the church and there is nothing anyone can do to stop the abuses. I personally experienced it because someone close to me has worked in church and personally suffered some kind of abuse. Spoke to one of the deacons but none of them can do anything about it. It is sad that this is happening in a church where there is suppose to be love of God. As a Christian, we tell people Jesus loves you but yet the church is not practising the love that the church is preaching. So if the National Christian Organizations do not step in, the members will suffer. I know of some who also left the faith. They are so disillusioned.
National Christian Organization must stand for the righteousness of God not man
To we were duped: we're referring to youth camps here, not family camp.
we were duped: and of course you're absolutely sure you know how much the hotel charged the church? you're so sure that the church marked up the fees to get their own cut of it? you've got some inside informer who told you the secret markup they did? or, as is usually the case, "i heard from a friend of a friend that..."
red: no, i don't think that paying less = camping at rundown place or unsafe place. i firmly believe that the youth of CC have got too high a standard for their camps, probly in keeping with the upper-middle class lifestyle they've grown up in. i've seen smaller churches do more with less.
and really, how much do we need to pay to get in tune with God?
Only recently did i started reading the comments especially noted those very interesting comments from ex-staff. i am one of them. even one of the extended ministry staff once said all who left are wounded soldiers. who was the one who hurt them, like the chiese saying "the heart knows and the stomach is aware".
All the comments on LOTT, was told that if SP is comfortable with you he will put his legs up??? Anyone of you going to see him, if you are comfortable please put your legs up and see whether he can accept it.
We must learn to forgive though forgetting is not easy, cos we answered the call of God to serve in CC but lost my respect for the pastor whom we have looked up to as our shepherd. JG is just like him, he likes to use this phase "YOU LISTEN I TELL YOU". Would you listen??? Like father like son???
I take it as a phase of life that the Lord has brought us through and I don't regret having answered the call to serve but regretted serving in a church where ALL the pastors have no compassion.
All you dear ex-staff, if you are still hurting let go, just pray along with the TTG until justice and righteousness be brought back to the church.
TTG, GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU.
To Anonymous 8.38am - ex-staff. Thanks for your encouragement to ask let who have been hurt to let go. I tell myself I want to let go but I find it very difficult to forget. Anyway I thank God that finally it looks like God has heard the silent cry of my heart. When all this is over and we have new loving pastors in cc, we should all have a ex-staff gathering to share and pray for God to heal our wounded hearts. Amen.
To ex-youth: I think it's a very big assumption you're making about how our families/youths are living in upper middle class because I have a family and is certainly not of the upper middle class status. it is merely a stereotype you're placing on all the youths in CC. but do note that not everyone is alike.
and yes, one does not have to pay to get in tune with God but it is things like these that attract our young ones to the things of God. i strongly believe that you can get in tune with God anytime and anywhere at all if that's what you mean. you don't even have to attend sunday services to get in tune with God. what i'm emphasizing is that apart from what we have, services/camps are extras for us to help boost our Christian life. hence this youth camp for our children/youths.
the speaker-1eremy seaward, ahh like father like son generation, hopefully he is ok, detach from that generational...
don know, very skeptical abt speaker calvary church bring in these days, they are somehow twisted to suit our SP.. scold me if you like. I just lose trust and confidence..
Dear Funny.
Even if Dr Jay has meant TTG worriers, it's also correct because TTG is worried for the simple reason that SP may have to run when the ACA, IRB, BNM and the rest come down on him.
TTG is worried because SP definitely cannot run away from the long arm of the law, altho' he goes to the gym regularly I'm told.
That's way TTG is worried. By the way, you're a realy funny. Ha! Ha!Maybe you can help SP to run since you're much younger. Hi, I know you're a youth because you use the expression "lol" (it's "laugh out loud" for those who are not into the youth's lingo). God bless.
Dear all,
We've gone off tangent again. Let's not split hair on the cost of camp, whether family or youth.
Let's refocus on TTG. God bless.
well, i know for sure that the youth camp does NOT pay for the speaker's expenses. however, a love offering is usually collected during the final session for the speaker only (no other offerings collected throughout camp).
youth camp fees includes accommodation, transport, meals, materials (camp booklet + tag) and insurance.
just one last one, ah beng no.2...thanks.
red: Ok,perhaps we were talking abt 2 separate issues altogether..I for one think the cost of youth camps are ok as the youth leaders are not conniving and money minded like the adults who form the committee for family camps etc, ultimately headed by SP -the mastermind of money mindedness. So yes, i agree with u that the youths should not go to some run down shack.
ex-youth: answer to your question is YES. direct source. How abt u? any direct sources that they did NOT mark up the price???? get yr facts right.
and one more thing, ex-youth, if u read my earlier comments PROPERLY, what I said was the church gave us a misrepresentation - they tell us that they are subsidizing us but in reality, they are not as the cost that we had to pay for the family camp is inclusive of a whole lot of additional expenses which were NOT revealed to us. We are paying for not only the pastors' expenses and love gift but also SP's camp expenses. So what is with all the nonsense of giving us subsidy? It is not a real subsidy and if it is not really a subsidy, they shouldn't lie to us and say it is. Period.
Hi We Were Duped and ex-youth,
Cool it...don't get hot over the past. We cannot change it but we shd learn fr it. They tell us subsidy to make us feel good (which is good) then we praise them (which is robbing God of Glory) for being so concern for us and then SP NAMA BESAR.
I know for a fact and not just hear fr somebody who heard fr somebody. I used to be involved in helping organise games etc etc for church camp. I know who pays for the materials used in the games...WE THE GAMES COMMITTEE, OK. I paid for the materials used in games I come up with. No complaints though. God has always blessed me with more than I gave - God is no debtor to anyone.
I also know for a fact that SP & family and certain APs do not need to pay camp fees, seminar fees or even banquet fees in hotels. I have helped organise such events and we have to crack our brains to cover their cost. I also know that his grandchildren study in the kindergathen for free while the other church staff pay half price. You want to know more?...
Better stop this bickering ex-youth. I am speaking from first hand experience and not hearsay ok. Just because SP & his church leaders tell us half truth does not mean we here are telling half truths like them. We are not that is why we express the truth here in CT.
Yup! To add a point to "we were duped". We don't pay love offering. It is sickening if you have to pay "love offering". We give freely with love "love offering". We should not be forced to pay "love offering"!
thank u for confirming this, telling 1st hand stories
I think someone asked earlier if SP need to take leave to go for church camp or something to that effect.
Well Pastors if they are on duty don't need to take leave because they are "supposed" to be working there at the camp sites. So if you study the camp booklet carefully, you will notice that all the Pastors' names appear as ADVISOR to some committee headed by lay leaders. As far as I know, all the work are done by us, who are office workers in the secular world, then we have to take our office Annual Leave to serve in the Camp, and then the Pastors are recognised because they are Advisors. That's the scenario. One more thing, I know many of our church ladies have to take leave from office, pay full camp fees and then miss most of the sharing sermon sessions because they are teaching the children at the church camp - I know because my wife always kena like that. Come to think of it, have anyone who has ever attended church camp seen any SP family teaching the children?
And I'm sure the SP's family gets the best hotel room. Not like us 5 in a family squeezed in one small room. Now I understand what it means by the rich gets richer and the poor gets poorer. So unfair la..
seriously, SP & his family has gotta go...they are always treating themselves like royalty while the church members and the church staff are their servants
Yes i agree with "we were duped" 7.06pm. SP and his family gotta go. This is not their church. This is our church. It does not belong to the Guneratnams dynasty. It belongs to God and God's people. God's people must be honest and truthful and must be with integrity. SP deceived us by telling us lots of half truths. SP and his family must go, must go!!!!!!
Someone make a side remark in his/her comments about SP going to the gym. That's true, you know, he goes to this gym in Mid Valley, i think, the one owned by Jackie Chan. And i heard from some sources our church is paying for his membership and fees.if this true, it's sickening. The members give offering for building God's kingdom and he use some for paying his gym fees. Just like long long time ago, he buy food for his dog and charge to church as security costs. Cheap-skate-lah our SP or rather its called abuse or maybe cheating.
Dear ss,
I'm not too sure about the church paying for sp's gym fees. And I believe you've also heard it from some sources. Therefore, at this point it may be just speculation, rumour, gossip etc. I suggest you check it out and confirm it. If what you said is true, than we need to bring this matter up. But, what if it is not true? We must be responsible for what we say or do, and blog with a good spirit.
God bless.
Dear ss,
You mean CC pays for SP's gym fees, sure or not? If it's true, we need to raise this matter at upcoming AGM. This cannot go on.
Anyway, I already know what Deacon PW will respond, like what he said about SP's voice-training at last AGM,
"Well, all of us know that preaching is tough. SP needs stamina and strong leg muscles as he has to stand right through the sermon, and altar call, and we're talking about an hour or so. So if we can send him for voice-training, what's the problem sending him for gym-training."
If we pay for SP, what about the other pastors? You mean, they sit down when preaching and giving altar call.
PW, it's your call!
Talking about misuse of CC funds, the G family is also misusing church assets and workers.
Many years ago, when Astro first started its satellite TV service, the church fixed an Astro dish at the guest room located at the old bungalow with a swimming pool opposite the CRC where Pas. PO did his walking on the water "publicity stunt" for faith-promise.
I understand from an ex-staff that JG took the Astro dish back to his house for his own personal use.
I was also kept informed that the church contract cleaners are occasionally sent to SP's bungalow to doing spring-cleaning before he returns from his oversea trips.
I'm also told RY is SP's Special PA. He does his personal errands, eg. passport renewal, maid renewal, etc, etc.
The G dynasty think CC and its funds, assets and even workers are theirs. It's high time we put a stop to these excesses. The BOD must not pretend they don't know about these "behind-the-scene" misuse of church assets and workers.
dear joseph gerard
Go and ask PW or any BOD.
The truth is out there.
Just a word of caution!!!
Beware of half truth
On SP going to gym, it's confirmed as confided to me by an ex-staff. The gym is in Mid Valley. SP goes early in the morn. As to whether SP or CC pays, you can check with PW. I think he should know.
This is another true story, from an ex-deacon. Many years ago, SP submitted his credit card bill amounting to RM17,000/- to the BOD to pay for him, and GUESS WHAT! BOD meekly and submissively picked up the tab, with church funds, i.e. OUR MONEY, lah!! No wonder the credit card company so impressed with Datuk Tan Sri! No wonder they gave him a platinum card! SP is the last of the BIG-SPENDERS! I wonder if BOD still paying for his excesses, with church money?
Dear All,
There is definitely all lot of wrong with CC. The Church paying SP credit card bill. This is too much. Paying credit card bill with the money that we give for tithes and offerings.
So you guys, STOP GIVING!!!!!!
Your money not used wisely, but used to pay for SP personal bills.
This is outright STEALING!!!!!
RM17,000.00 bill for the credit card for a pastor???
How can?
Some people dont even earn that much in a year!!
Does the pastor pay for anything himself?
which is why SP ain't gonna give up his position in CC without a fight. he gets paid 5 figure salary every mth and doesnt hv to use his salary much since most of his expenses are paid by church. His family's salaries oso from church and they oso simply use church money and church property for their personal use. for sure he won't willingly retire...die die also he will hold on to his post. which is why we hv no choice but to kick him out.pergi la,lu!
Platinum card, Volvo SUV, Brioni suits, business class, dog food, using congregation's children for servants ...
Are the GuneRATnams pretending that they don't know where they are heading for if they don't repent fast?
Why are we so surprised with these excesses?
BOD who are supposedly elected by us, members have been spoiling the Calvary First Family all the while, so SP said why BOD approved it and gave it to me so why are making remarks and complaining?
BOD save for one are all very compliant people.
We are very disappointed with you, BOD save one.
Please stop all the abuses and get right, stop protecting and shielding SP & family.
Come out and tell the truth faster before more disgrace and shame pile up!
New comments are not allowed.