Senior Pastor Prince Guneratnam (PG) once again displayed his autocratic style as he bulldozed his way through another AGM last Friday. After having unconstitutionally and unethically removed 400 members, PG had it comparatively easy with only a handful of concerned members including the Plaintiffs to contend with.
The 5 Plaintiffs present put up a brave front, voicing their concerns on various church issues and questioning the irregularities in the previous AGM and EGM minutes, amidst the occasional jeering from the Church staff and die-hard fans of PG.
The 5 Plaintiffs present put up a brave front, voicing their concerns on various church issues and questioning the irregularities in the previous AGM and EGM minutes, amidst the occasional jeering from the Church staff and die-hard fans of PG.
Similar to previous AGM/EGM, PG continued his infamous style of switching off the microphones whenever he wished to stop anyone from speaking further, rudely instructing members to sit down before they could finish their questions or statements and constantly threatening to remove anyone who refuses to sit when instructed.
The meeting began with a motion from the Board of Deacons to ratify the convening of the current AGM session without the issuance of a fresh preliminary notice calling for the AGM. At this point, Bro Joseph stood up to raise the issue of the termination or reclassification of some 400 Voting and Associate members in March this year. He questioned the unconstitutional removal of the 400 members, using rules from an old outdated Church Constitution which has long been repealed and superseded. He contented that the holding of the AGM without the presence of the 400 terminated members is gross injustice and unconstitutional. (The 400 members who had been removed comprised mostly those who had voiced out their concerns on the lack of transparency in the Church and those who had questioned PG's mismanagement of Church funds and his abuse of power.)
Bro Joseph was threatened with removal from the meeting when he persisted in demanding an explanation from PG on the matter. PG had his way and the members then voted to ratify the convening of the AGM. The motion was passed with a handful of objections from the floor.
Clip 1 : Listen to the exchange of words between PG and Bro Joseph in the audio clip below:
Having gotten the approval of the members present to proceed with the AGM, PG then proceeded with the Agenda for the meeting. At this point, Bro KC stood to inform that he had submitted a Motion of No Confidence in the Senior Pastor but it had been rejected by the Board of Deacons for reasons which are disputable. He requested PG to allow the members present to decide if the motion should be tabled as the members at a General Meeting has full authority under the Constitution to make such a decision. However, PG rejected the request and got Deacon David Peters to explain that the motion was rejected because it was submitted by Bro KC past the prescribed period of 7 days from the date of the original Preliminary Notice of AGM issued in March this year. Apparently Bro KC then stood up wanting to clarify the matter but PG suddenly has vision problems and did not see Bro KC standing with his hand raised despite Bro KC standing a mere 20 feet away in front of him. PG quickly proceeded to put the agenda to the vote and it was passed.
Soon after, the members got to witness the cold-heartedness of PG when Sis Liza stood to state a point of order but she was asked by PG to clarify her point of order to the usher controlling the microphone, who will then conveyed her statement to PG before he decides if she could speak. Sis Liza questioned the logic of having to talk to a third party when PG is the Chairman and insisted on stating her point of order directly to the Chair. PG then invited her to go onto the stage to talk to him personally. What transpired on stage only Sis Liza and PG knows. An argument ensued and PG ordered a few “bouncers’ to escort her from the stage. Such is the high-handedness of PG.
Clip 2 : Listen to Bro KC’s question and the “personal” conversation on stage between Sis Liza and PG.
The next item concerned the passing of the previous 2009 AGM minutes. During this motion, Bro Teng spoke and questioned the non-inclusion of material amendments to the 2008 EGM minutes which were highlighted at the last 2009 AGM. The amendments had then been agreed to by both PG and the Secretary but conveniently left out again. The material amendments left out related to the eventual utilization of the Indonesian Earthquake Fund for a different purpose which the Board of Deacons deemed as “good business sense” after the rightful return of the funds from PG’s personal Calvary International Ministry (CIM) back to Missions Dept.
Both Sis Liza and Bro Teng continued to maintain that minutes must always reflect what is actually said but however, PG continued his display of high-handedness and decided to bulldoze his way through and proposed that the minutes be accepted as it is without any amendments.
This is a dangerous precedent but sadly, the members present voted and passed the minutes without changes. They either voted out of fear or out of blind loyalty or perhaps, they just couldn’t care less. Whatever the reasons, it was certainly a black day for Calvary Church. It is a license for PG to minute what he wants in future and then get the members to endorse it. This is the early signs of a cult when members are no longer able to think rationally but just listen and follow blindly what their leader says.
Clip 3 : Listen to Bro Teng and Sis Liza’s coments on the minutes
The next item on the agenda was the Treasurer’s Report and the Extended Ministries’ Reports, which were tabled and passed.. During question time, Bro Teng highlighted the fact that the Missions Manual which has been in use all the while, has never been approved by the members at any AGM or EGM. He raised the concern that the Board of Deacons has no jurisdiction over the usage of the Missions Funds and that PG, under the Missions Manual, has full authority over the usage of the funds. PG merely responded that he had always sought the approval of his Deacons on all decisions concerning the utilization of missions funds. If members recall, it is because of this weakness in the Missions Fund administration, that PG was able to transfer RM1.9 million of Missions Fund into his personal ministry, CIM without the approval or knowledge of the members.
Clip 4 : Listen to Bro Teng’s questions on the Missions Manual
Sis Liza then highlighted that the reporting by the Missions Director also wrongly identified and mixed up the two different entities of CARE and CARED. Sis Liza clarified that CARE (a humanitarian fund) is a ministry set up under the Missions Dept many years ago while CARED is subsidiary of CIM which was formed much later. Pas Steven, however, clarified the opposite but later, admitted that he spoke from his own knowledge and that he will check out the matter. Sis Liza offered to meet and show him the evidence. It was the close semblance of name of these two entities which caused much confusion when it was first discovered that funds from CARE (started by the church missions department) had been moved to CARED (started by PG under his personal ministry CIM). This was part of the RM1.9 million transferred from the Missions Fund to CIM.
Clip 5 : Listen to Sis Liza's explanation on CARE and CARED
The election of Deacons was carried out smoothly with Bro Stephen Liu and Bro Edward Rajasingam being re-elected and Bro Chow Sang Hoe (past church auditor) being elected. The meeting was also informed of Bro Philip Tan’s resignation from the Board.
The resolutions for the appointment of external auditors to audit the main Church accounts and the Extended Ministries’ accounts were passed without objection.
The last item on the agenda was the report on the Calvary Convention Centre (CCC).
The members were informed that new contractors have been appointed to complete Phase 1A which comprises the Reinforced Foundation, Roof and Steel Structure and Fascade and Wall Cladding. Phase 1B will consists of Mechanical and Electrical Works, Architectural Works and Interior Design Works. The estimated date of completion of both phases is sometime in 2013.
Phase 1A will cost RM75.3 million while Phase 1B will cost RM79.8 million. The new expenditure of Phase 1A and Phase 1B totalling RM155.1 million together with the costs incurred todate of RM35.8 million, committed fees of RM7.7 million and land costs of RM35 million will result in a total costs of RM233.6 million. For this total costs, we will ONLY SEE the completion of the 5,000-seat auditorium WITHOUT the education block, office, recreational facilities and all the ancillary facilities.
Due to the receipt of only RM6 million in advances from members as opposed to PG’s target of RM35 million, the Church has to now borrow RM35 million from a bank and borrow a further RM47 million or sell an equivalent amount of church assets to just complete Phase 1A and 1B, i.e just the Auditorium. Is the Church heading for financial disaster?
The meeting ended at about 10.30pm.
A NOTE OF THANKS:
CT appreciates the help of several members who attended the AGM last Friday in
coming out with this article. This is because the Administrators, were among the 400 sacked members, therefore were unable to attend the meeting. CT also wishes to thank the members who sent in recordings of the meeting. It is comforting to know that among the existing members and leaders, there is still a remnant of concerned Christians with a Godly conscience. May God bless them richly!
113 comments:
From the beginning to the End...
Three words to describe PGs, BOD, Assoc. Pas, and All their (deceived) followers:
HYPOCRITES. LIES EXPERTS & ADVOCATES of LAWLESSNESS
October 6, 2010 11:10 AM
Thank you CT for the report on the AGM.
Indeed God is good and has allowed the AGM to run according to His will.
May God's favor continue to be upon CC.
October 6, 2010 4:05 PM
Thank you CT for the write up and recordings. Yes, I was there last Friday, sitting at the front few rows and saw how PG bulldozed his way through the AGM using high handed tactics. What a disgrace! Shame on him, the APs and BODs.
I salute Bro Joseph, Bro Teng, Bro KC & Sis Liza for their courage to continue speaking the truth so that the innocent ones and also the "dumb" sheep would know that all these while they have been hoodwinked by PG & gang. Though they were rudely treated by PG during the AGM, they fought on. Praise the Lord for all of you.
CT, I think it was not recorded in your posting that at one point, PG said "you've got to respect the chairman" after threatening to get his 'bouncers' to throw Bro Joseph out of the sanctuary. I like what Bro Joseph said in response to PG's statement. He told PG that respect is gained and not through demands. If PG wants respect from the members, he has to also respect the members. Respect should be two ways, mutual. Ha ha ha. Well said. I could see PG's face turning red, fuming.
Last Friday was the last straw that broke the camel's back. I will no longer give to CC or CCC. It will be better for me to worship elsewhere rather than continue to be lied, oppressed and taken for a ride by these rogue pastors.
To all the TTG members, never give up. It's because of you accepting the Lord's call to stand up for Truth, Transparency & Good Governance, 'dumb' sheep like us are enlighten and free. Continue the good fight & may God bless you and your family.
October 6, 2010 4:39 PM
I really pity the 5 brave TTG souls who had to go into the lion's dens and be ridiculed and jeered by PG and his cronies. I think all calvary members who were part of the jeering should be well ashamed of themselves...especially those who consider themselves 'leaders'. these 'leaders' should realize that they are only chosen to be leaders because all the talented and good ones hv already left church and they are the few left, so the church has no choice but to elect them as leaders, not because they are godly or qualified but because they are the remnant few bad apples left!
TRUE FATHERS!(& MOTHERS!)
To Bro Joseph, Bro Teng, Bro KC, Sis Liza and also CT/TTG
I thank the Lord for giving each of you the spirit of courage and wisdom to stand "alone" in the House of God and speak TRUTH.
You like Christ 'were indeed wounded in the house of your friends'. But never mind, rejoice because you considered yourself each worthy to suffer for Him.
There is a joy unspeakable in my spirit to hear what you each did. You are TRUE INTERCESSORS!
THE LORD WILL VINDICATE YOU!
Vijay
October 6, 2010 6:23 PM
to Apples,
it saddened me to hear u say that they (leaders) are only chosen to be leaders because all the talented and good ones hv already left church and they are the few left, so the church has no choice but to elect them as leaders, not because they are godly or qualified but because they are the remnant few bad apples left!
These leaders have answered God's call to the ministries and made themselves to serve the Lord, and not man. While the church is in turmoil, leaders still have to lead their sheeps. I myself is a LG leader and I do not choose sides because the one I am serving is God. I am still a leader because I have sheeps to lead.
I am still waiting for the day when the truth will set us free. Calvary is God's church and not man's. If SP is indeed corrupt, he will be removed. It takes a lot of process and pain to get the truth out of Calvary especially if a meeting is chaired by a person in question.
I hope that in future EGMs and AGMs, more resolution will be put forward as described in the constitution so that it will be part of the meeting agenda.
I must thank the TTG for their perseverance and pray that they will continue the effort until truth unveils itself. It's a long battle but I am sure the Victory will be our Lords. But I hope it will be in a more peaceful way, we are after all guardians of peace.
I am of course saddened by the members who jeered at the plaintiffs and make them feel like they are troublemakers. We are still brothers and sisters in Christ, and love one another we must. Hold your head up high if we do things that would please God, like speak of the truth.
In the meantime, please do not badmouth or look down on calvary church members because we are all not perfect and always fall short of God's glory.
October 6, 2010 10:00 PM
sp did a great job , at no time he floundered.practically the members were treated like kindergarden kids. presumely , we are with all the holy praises, phrases and ostrich ourselves. we must be honest with ourselves. not shiok ourselves here. let not deemed ourselves that we suffered for the lord..we suffered because we are plain ignorant.
October 6, 2010 11:00 PM
Thank you Calvary Today for giving us the report. In the past all such lawlessness will be kept under cover and no one would know except for those present.
We stand by with the 5 brave TTG representatives who stood up and spoke against the wrongful acts of PG and BOD. What a great shame that PG acted in such a dictatorial and abusive manner and his supporters are still as blind and mindless as ever!
Someone said even Hilter also had his supporters and fans. So it is not strange that PG and BOD still have their supporters.
But we believe one day everything will be exposed and these supporters will be grossly disappointed and even ashamed that they had mindlessly and blindly followed PG and gang.
God is surely working something beyond our expectation. Vengeance belongs to the Lord our God.
October 6, 2010 11:19 PM
My Response to Clip 1
--------------------------
1. I must say Bro Teng was much more composed and dignified than Bro Joseph who was also shouting and at one point screaming at the Chairman.
2. The issue of the reclassification of members is of utmost importance but I agree with the Chairman that while it may be that the membership list is in dispute (as put by Bro Teng), it does not impact the AGM which has been called/convened as per the church's constitution. Nevertheless the membership issue MUST be addressed at some time as otherwise the church will loose its credibility. An excellent example is the question at the end - it shows that the process taken by the membership committee (as mentioned by the Chairman as being responsible for the exercise) is flawed.
3. It was however heartening to note that the Chairman announced that on 26th November 2010 there will be a dialogue with members concerning this very issue and where participants can ask (all?) the questions they have. The decision to have this dialogue does say something positive concerning the church leadership and I am looking forward to this event.
4. I certainly hope that the membership dialogue will be open to ALL who are interested to attend (and not just confined to "members"). Secondly, I hope that there will none of the AGM rules like (a) you cannot express what you think/give your "side of the story" but can ONLY ask questions or seek clarification (otherwise you will be asked to sit down?); or (b) you can only participate twice only. If these rules apply then what kind of dialogue are we talking about? Worse, if these rules are enforced, it simply shows our insincerity - its really just putting up a show with no real interest on how people feel. I hope this will not be the case.
5. I do hope that the membership dialogue will be an open one for I feel strongly that if it is so, this will be the first step towards reconciliation and healing. If there are mistakes done, let's just admit instead of denying it and see how these can be prevented going forward. Sure this issue is emotional and there will be voices raised, positions which will differ, etc... But let the membership dialogue be the open platform where this can be expressed/thrashed out since we have always said that any issues should be resolve WITHIN the church. Or do we really want the issue to be taken out into the public arena because there is no avenue for members/people to express, even at times aggressively, their thoughts and views on the matter?
6. The membership dialogue indeed can be a fresh beginning. How it turns out depends on whehter the membership committee and the church leadership are willing to let it be what it should be - a dialogue. And how willing are we prepared to listen and change for the sake of moving forward.
Hope to give my response to the other issues later. God Bless!
October 6, 2010 11:31 PM
'shepherd' or CRUEL Dog Trainer?
" Sit-down!"..." Sit-down!"... " Sit-down!"
"I'll Take you out!" ( what this meant "finished you off" (?)
Yet, in his opening 'welcome' he said "We are Family"
PG is truly the greatest Hypocrite of all time!
October 7, 2010 12:29 AM
Dear Was There Said.
I have been a member for about 40 years and I am one of those where we suddenly become inactive members. Membership dialogue? Please dont expect too much lest you disappoint yourself greatly. A leopard does not change its spots.
October 7, 2010 1:14 AM
In reply to "Was There said...
" It's good you have faith, like most of TTG did with the promise of "dialogue" by PG & BOD since 2008 (not to mention all the 35 years ago!) but got played out time and time again.
However, the deeply regrettable fact is they have PROVEN themselves to be schemers, manipulators without any sincerity in what they said at all. ( No exaggeration).
Consider the Memorandum Concerned Members sent, & then all the "COMMITTEES" they installed to address the Financial, Constitution, Truth,etc ISSUES-whatever happened? It's all hot air. And the 3-month long CERAMAHs they organised --to justify their witch-hunting, remember? and they called it "dialogue" too. I suppose for a complete list on recent times, go to CT archive, or better still talk to pioneer Members or Former Calvarites or NECF or AOG Council Members...)
IF only PG & BOD are Sincere, Love the Church as Christ Loves it, and stand Accountable for their actions, what we witnessed here wouldn't have taken place.
Sorry, PLEASE Do not be Deceived by PG's yet again another "dialogue". ( sounds so democratic)They have ( proven) they always have ulterior motives and the objective is to strengthen their position. Can't you see what they did at this AGM, in particular PG's call for motion to Vote on the distorted Minutes to stay? GOD help Us!
It's not Dialogue. Don't be fooled.
The Answer lies in the Calvary Church CONSTITUTION--it needs a Complete Review to STOP the Abuses of Power by Senior pastor and the Board of Deacons.
ONLY THEN will there be a new beginning to restore Calvary Church to be a GOD FEARING and Righteous church.
October 7, 2010 1:16 AM
bloody s---, I dont think I need to type in full the spelling of the other word.. but it is really bloody in God's sense, how over and over again , members being treated in such manners... and yet there is 'one man' who super-controlled every inch of the meeting, actually must as well dont attend the meeting and let him made his own decision and build his own church.
Honestly..my heart was pumping when I listened to the recording..I cant even continue to the next 1 or 2 minutes.. all memories of hurt and anger in the previous meeting resurface...
Time for all Calvarites.. do you still want to follow this 'man'? if not go and visit other churches and talk to other pastors? you will experience God's power!
October 7, 2010 10:30 AM
I received a copy of this Missions Manual from the Missions Dept. sometime back. When? I leave to the church to investigate.
I agree with Bro Teng that this manual has to be approved by the members in an AGM. Is there anything to hide?
I'm awared many members have this manual. After AGM, I looked thru' it and discovered Section 6 on The Missions Dept - Organisational Structure and Authority. Very true, SP has FULL AUTHORITY, BOD (rightly pointed by Bro Teng) NO AUTHORITY, Missions Director DIRECTLY ACCOUNTABLE to SP HIMSELF and Missions Committee serves as ADVISORY BODY to Missions DIrector.
I propose all who have copies please give them to CT administrator if any of you know the person(s). Let them study and publish it.
If you are church members giving Faith Promise, ask the Missions Dept for a copy before you pledge next. They have to give it to you as you are entitled to it like Church Constitution. It's your right as a good and responsible steward of God.
October 7, 2010 11:13 AM
Bro Joseph was exercising "righteous anger" in an atmosphere of "total unrighteousness" on the part of the Chairman in chairing the AGM.
Look at SP. He directed people to shut the mic. He directed people to order you out. He directed you to sit down, sit down, sit down. He had his gang to jeer at you. He stopped you before you can even complete the first sentence when you came out to speak. He kept on moving fast to the next agenda without giving you a chance to speak or ask. When KC proposed the vote of no confidence on him, he brushed it aside and refused KC to speak. MIC off.
This is the type of atmosphere in CC AGM with SP as Chairman. AGM/EGM in CC are worst I ever attended even when compared to others outside church. At least, others allow you to speak openly and give feedback. CC - Absolutely NO!
October 7, 2010 11:36 AM
Wow! Calvary Church Constitution - Full Authority for SP.
Missions Manual - Full Authority for SP
No wonder!
SP is so powerful. BOD is subservient and scare of him.
SP is so powerful. Associate Pastors are subservient and scare of him.
SP is so powerful. Members are so helpless.
Don't worry!
God knows all.
October 7, 2010 11:43 AM
Stop dreaming about getting a copy from Missions Dept. Look at Ps. Stephen. He was more concerned about who gave who. You think he would gave you a copy.
I think it's easier to get it from the TTG fellows or people close to Ps Stephen or Ps Peter. Some working in the church are supportive of TTG. This I know. Not all are blind. There is HOPE.
October 7, 2010 11:50 AM
During AGM, PG was trying to justify that he always got BOD to sanction every decision he made regarding missions monies. He never has any thought not to do it.
What happened to the transfer of 1.9M from missions fund to his personal ministry, CIM? Had he got sanctioned early, why did he turn to BOD to RATIFY, RATIFY, RATIFY the transfer of 200K for
some 5 years after being caught by TTG?
There can only be 1 possible explanation. He transferred because Missions Manual gave him the full power. He only seeked protection from BOD after being caught. Look like, small transfer he can remember to seek sanction but big transfer he forget. "Lingam" would say, CORRECT, COREECT, CORRECT.
October 7, 2010 7:54 PM
If Missions Manual says that all extended ministries belong to those who run them, then Jim and Pam would own the Accumulated Funds of RM1,006,333 in the Calvary Communication Ministry and RM566,663 in the Calvary Life Ministries as at 31/12/2009.
No wonder the extended ministries accounts were not given to members until members had to vote to have them annexed few years ago.
By the way, does annexing to the Missions Dept Account means the ownership of extended ministries belong to the church?
Slowly and surely, the Lord has revealed more secrets of PG's ways. Thank be to God. PG hides but God exposes.
October 7, 2010 8:05 PM
The AGM must have ended well after 11pm. At that time, the meeting was still at the CCC subject when a PG supporter stood up to heap praises on the CCC project, and by extension on you-know-who. PG glowed at the praises, of course! What hypocrisy when it was a clear violation of his own house-rules which he had got the meeting to adopt right at the beginning of the AGM. He had stated that members were allowed to ask only 2 questions for clarification only - no preamble, no statement of personal opinion. Yet,this member was allowed to proffer his opinion whereas others were snapped at to "sit down!" before they even complete a question.
With the behaviour of the chairman and his cohorts/supporters that night, I would say CC has sunk to a new level of shame. I have attended so many AGMs in the corporate sector, never had I witnessed such disgraceful behaviour. And this is a church, not a mafia-like organisation controlled by the godfather and his henchmen. I was shocked when the APs marched towards Liza menacingly on the platform when PG threatened to have her thrown out. I was wondering if DS would have dared to drag Liza out had she not sat down. That would have been manhandling. What a shame! I salute you Liza for your courage and fortitude in standing up for, and pursuing the truth for the true church of Jesus Christ.
PG said arrogantly that CC has not borrowed so far, and hope will not have to borrow to complete the project. O, yeah! Is this not a blatant lie? When he raised therecent 'advance' from members,one of the ways suggested to source funds was to borrow from banks to advance to the church. Is that not akin to the church using borrowed funds except the liability is transferred to the members? Besides, the advance raised (about RM6million) was far short of the target RM35million. Let's see how he is going to raise the funds to complete the project.
October 7, 2010 10:40 PM
It's difficult to understand our BOD. They are learned and have experience in the working world but yet cannot practise simple governance.
How can they sack 400 members using old constitution, without giving any explanation or show cause letter since Mar 7? These members were unconstitutionally and unbiblically removed as they just don't care for individual's feeling and welbeing. All plead fell on deaf ears.
They made a decision to proceed with the Oct 1 AGM even though the membership list is unconstitutional. All plead fell on deaf ears. THey just don't care.
And they don't mind to be dishonorable when they allowed themselves to be elected by an unconstitutional membership list. They don't feel ashamed.
BOD Secretary did not utter a word throughout the AGM. Imagine Secretary never said a word in an AGM! Only the Chairman unashamedly bulldozed through everything and all BOD members can't utter a single word. Unimaginable!
October 7, 2010 11:06 PM
To Winds of Change, I apologize if I've unintentionally offended you. however, I was referring to those 'leaders' who participated in the jeering of the 5 TTG brothers and sister. if they really did jeer at them and yet consider themselves leaders, I cannot agree with you that they are godly men and women and I still stand by what I said, that they are made leaders because the former leaders have all left or have been removed because they chose to stand up to PG.
October 7, 2010 11:18 PM
Agreed with LET TRUTH PREVAIL that PG was throughly a biased Chairman.
The TTG were muzzled with "sit down, mic off and get u out" but this Dato' could speak at great length without a single interruption fr PG, no mic off and no matching order.
This contrast was clearly seen before the very eyes of all to see for themselves. This is the type of Pentecostal World Fellowship Chairman - positional authority without spiritual authority and character.
October 7, 2010 11:37 PM
'SIT DOWN NOW... otherwise you are going to the Naughty Corner!'
PG, BOD & Associate Pastors have indeed
"Crossed over the DARK SIDE"
Even in the face of B&W evidence, they still want to deceive--twist & turn and wriggle their way out like a snake!
They stopped at nothing, absolutely nothing to cover-up, including MINUTES. Who, but only the Evil One
in them can do what they did.
October 8, 2010 12:16 AM
A member asked about the type of performance bond Nam Fatt gave CC. Shocking to hear it's not a bank/insurance type but Nam Fatt's own corporate bond.
Where is the wisdom of BOD and PG (supposedly International Christian leader) of the fountainhead church in accepting a corporate bond of then soon-to-be PN4 company and also granting them a RM 8M advance to start the project? As we all know, it subsequently turned out to be a defaulted contractor. BOD & PG asked for God's wisdom. But. Is it God did not grant them wisdom because it's not in His will for the whole project?
Calvarites, pl ask for discernment before you give the next time.
October 8, 2010 7:59 PM
CC and Nam Fatt had entered a settlement agreement for the CCC project. It was announced during AGM but no details in figures were given to members present. Members must press for details during the forthcoming EGM.
It was announced Reinforced Concrete Structure was awarded to E & J Alphazen JV S/B on 27/7/10 for RM21.4M and Roof & Steel Structure to Victor Buyck on 6/9/10for RM27.9M. Pl alert BOD if you have reasons to believe they can't perform. One bad contractor is enough.
October 8, 2010 8:14 PM
200 plus voting members were sacked. 200 plus associate members were sacked. 7 TTG members were reinstated by the High Court. But, Almighty God will raise a new wave of TTG among the existing voting members.
Arise, shine.
October 8, 2010 8:21 PM
TIME FOR MONEY CALL?
For over a year CCC's construction has encountered
numerous problems: Failed Contractor, Postponements, "Value Engineering"--yet Cost has Ballooned and project proper CUT by half, i.e without Educational Blocks, Resident Blocks, Sports Arena..etc.
1001 Questions unanswered over 1001 questionable
decisions taken. All under wrapped saved the occasional gloss-over 'up-dates'.
The"approved" budget of RM150 MILLION taken under dubious circumstances now over shot to over RM230 Million! and Still climbing...
NO accountability whatsoever from the PG& BOD for these fiasco! And where is the PROJECT DIRECTOR Prince Guneratnam JR ( Jim) to be found? Little did G family know this Big Shot title for their son ( with Perks) could turn into a Hot Seat:)
No nothing--the real issues --Mess-up-- they will tell the Members. AHHH but now, they need $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
So, they 'set -up' the EGM for you people--to tell you some nice stories... all is well & progressing.. you just give, give MORE dough...just believe in PG's "truth" NOT FACTS about dire state of the project, which PG has already prepared your 'spirit-mind'
Be prepared to EMPTY your bank accounts, sell your ALL . just one advice:
ASK PG, PG2, PG. JR. CHRIS G if they have done it, before you part anything.
October 8, 2010 11:19 PM
Yes, all worldly titles should go in the context of God's house for pastors.
Worldly titles from Kingdoms of the world like Datuk, TanSri, Datin and Datin Seri wore by PG and PG2.
AOG General Superindentant Emeritus, NECF Adviser, WAG Vice-Chairman, PWF Chairman - these are meant for genuine spiritual leaders.
If PG does not have the character of Christ and love of Christ for the sheep, he is a "bad shepherd" according to Ezekiel 34
October 9, 2010 12:16 PM
State of Church Leadership : Mostly Carnal
Character of Organisation : Typical Worldly ( Expect tactics that you will see in any corporate battles )
Mental State of the Organisation : Pharisaical. They really think they are serving God! Any opposing parties are deemed evil and satanic. Members of dumb sheep category are influenced similarly with some APs following closely behind.
CEO : Sxx xxx PG ( xxx Chief of Pharisees. If in doubt, look at his cars, houses and business/first class travel. Have many titles but lacking in testimony from God in his sermons )
State of new corporate infrastructure aka CCC : Cost overruns from RM50 mil to RM233 million. Under delivering ( missing education block etc..)
Current Objective : Obtain approval from CC members to spend above the approved 150mil budget.
Funding Gap : RM30mil++ ( after church assets disposal and drawing down bank loan )
Fund Raising Modus Operandi : Discontinue memberships to those who dont contribute to bottom line. CC is still keeping at least 80% of revenue after disposal of 'troublesome members' . Work the multi million surplus from church operation fund into CCC. Continue to recruit new revenue generating members from unsuspecting christians or those with 'dumb sheep' profile. The rival TTG TOTT strategy has contributed some setbacks to funding.
Operating Paradigm : adopt from 'Matrix' movie. The machinery ( SP and family ) need money to live. Treat members as 'the battery' . Suck the life out from them while preventing them from 'waking' up to the actual situation. Maintain a good front. Give the 'battery' the opportunity to serve God and the corporation's agenda.
Corporate Communication Strategy : Minimum Information Dissemination ( Information is Power). Promote church activities.
Public Relation Strategy : Continue to show open front ( "Write in and we will respond.." Keep actual discussions under wraps so that unfavorable information didnt get into the open )
Latest communication salvo from CEO : "Facts are not the truth"
Dear Readers : Seek the truth from God through the Holy Spirit who will guide us. Christ who is the Head of Church dwells in you.
Remember God is Sovereign. He still and will work His purposes in Calvary Church.
Are the information in fact sheet perception or true ?
May God's grace and mercy be with us. October 9, 2010 7:54 AM
PGs & APs are guilty, that is the fact. But it is also fact that many Christians affected. THose who support PG are asked to label those who support TTG as satan's followers, thus they don't talk to each other anymore. The family divided. Friendship broken. The name of Christianity continue to be affected by PG's sinful arrogant attitude. The question now is what ought ot be done. Court case obviously could not solve the problem. AOG escape, 400 members remain excluded, PG continue to master the church's money, new members deceived, & CCC moves forward. WHat has been achieved? Greater awareness is necessary. Don't rely on court case alone. Time is vital. Some broken relationship between brothers & sisters; wife & husband, children & parent will never restored to original when the saga prolong. Greater awareness is necessary.
October 9, 2010 3:57 PM
Food for Thought to:
"Was There said..."
1. I must say Bro Teng was much more composed and dignified than Bro Joseph who was also shouting and at one point screaming at the Chairman.
ACTUALLY, by your 'analysis' re above, PG & his LEGIONS laughing to see that you are deceived 'hook & sinker' like so many others in the Congregation
Have you wondered WHY Bro, Joseph had to "shout" or even "scream"? Think about it--Why did PG ordered the Microphone Switched -off? It was exactly the TRAP PG set-up-- to make Members like bro Joseph and all TTG Members looked 'bad & ugly', to HUMILIATE them, as he had done over the past AGMs --Don't you recall the same happened to a Sis last year--who had to shout at the top of her voice, having been prevented from speaking?
Sorry, you couldn't see through the evil devices of PG. But of course it surely isn't easy because he played-it out so well. 1st Class...
Only it would never escape GOD's eyes.
October 9, 2010 10:34 PM
My Response to Clips 2, 3 & 4
----------------------
These clips basically relates to the resolution which was rejected & accuracy of the minutes.
1. Bro KC informed the meeting of a resolution of no-confidence – the Board did provide its reasons why the resolution could not be tabled and I agree with the Board's decision as they are acting within the church's Constitution. In fact, I am quite sure Bro KC knew that the Board was right and it was to his credit that he did not kick up a big fuss over the issue.
2. As to the minutes, there are 2 basic issues which we must clearly differentiate – namely, the “non-recording” and “wrong-recording” of minutes.
3. Firstly, on non-recording. Just because certain opinions, speeches, statements, etc… were not recorded in the minutes do not mean that the minutes are wrong/inaccurate. It is impractical and legally not necessary to record everything that was said and done at a meeting. In other words, there is no need to kill oneself if something said was not recorded and there is really no need to shout foul-play either. In this respect, I support the decision of the meeting to reject the various requests to include statements, questions, opinions, etc… into the formal minutes.
4. However, it is imperative that any mistakes in the minutes be amended. For example, the Secretary was extremely concern on wrong-recording when she proposed some changes to the voting numbers. However she and the Chairman appeared to be unconcern when it came to other “wrong-recordings”.
5. Bro Teng wanted the Secretary to amend a portion of the minutes concerning the minutes of the EGM held on 15th August 2008. I remembered clearly that there were so much uncertainties on the minutes then that there was a motion to defer passing them. I also remembered clearly (which was what Bro Teng wanted changed) that the Chairman then asked that the minutes be passed PROVISIONALLY subject to further investigation on the accuracy. Premise on this, the minutes were passed, PROVISIONALLY that is. Therefore it is inaccurate to record “… the minutes were approved with corrections made accordingly”. Sure, the minutes were corrected AFTER the meeting – it would be a “Matter Arising” item. But at the meeting, what happened was the minutes were passed PROVISIONALLY WITHOUT any corrections. As such this part of the minutes is obviously erroneous – it represents a wrong-recording.
6. I was surprised that Bro Teng agreed to accept the Chairman’s clarification.
7. If I was surprised at Bro Teng, I was even more surprised at the Secretary who had just earlier, took pains to point out some (minor) mistakes to ensure the accuracy of the minutes. This time around she remained silent – I am disappointed.
8. I am also disappointed that the meeting actually agreed to pass the minutes which was evidently wrong (at least the part in question). However, in one sense I cannot totally blame the meeting since the motion to accept the minutes was proposed by the Chairman himself. This, I am most dismayed and saddened since the Chairman was asking the members to accept/adopt something that I am quite sure he knew was inaccurate. Sigh!
So, non-recording of minutes of the specific items raised? I can accept this without losing any sleep. But wrong-recording? I have already spoken my peace on the matter.
October 9, 2010 12:16 AM
Dear BOD/CC members
I can't understanding why counselling is put into Calvary Life Ministries and tape ministry put into Calvary Communication Ministry. Aren't these 2 ministries part and parcel of any church?
Both counselling and tape ministry are happening within the church for the worshippers. So, why place them into Extended Ministries where PG's children are Directors and accumulated fund 1.6M can be belonged to them. THese ministries must be brought back as church departments and accountable to BOD and members during AGM.
This 1.6M ought to be channelled back to CCC building funds. After all, these monies were from church worshippers. BOD, please make a decision to instruct them to give back to CC. If BOD can't do it or don't have guts to do it, members must demand them to do it before members should give. Don't draw down the 35M loan and don't sell the 47M asset. First, use whatever accumulated funds in the extended ministries. Any things to sell, PG, SAP, APs and BOD can do first as LEADERSHIP BY EXAMPLE. PLease don't sell church asset. Otherwise, DH & DP will be gone forever.
October 9, 2010 6:00 PM
The case is still pending to " convert the OS to a Writ, which if successful, will mean an open trial ", hence the AGM is NULL & VOID !
The chairman and the BOD can be cited for contempt and commit to imprisonment!
October 7, 2010 1:22 AM
Please accept my gratitude and respect to the FIVE for attending and speaking up at the AGM. I could not control my rage after listening to the first few minutes of the exchange between Bro Joseph and PG. I had to stop listening. There are many out here who applaud your courage and righteousness.
To the other members at the AGM: may God give you wisdom.
OBSERVER2:
Think again. There is only one person laughing at all this, and it's not 'PG & his LEGIONS'. What would please this person more than seeing Christians at each others' throats?
Wake up, people.
October 13, 2010 12:09 AM
i'm sure that this person laughing at all this is also the same one USING PG & his legions to cause havoc to Calvary Church.
There is something that i don't understand..Why frequently people come to TTG or CT, & ask to stop argue, stop complain, and stop courtcase with the reason that this does not glorify God; and ask to forgive PG even though they have really sinned and is continue sinning; yet make no effort to tell PG himself (the person who is the cause & source of all these hurt & bad testimony) to stop sinning, stop lording over people, stop his wayward expenses, stop his arrogant dream of CCC, stop pretending as pastor and stop hurting the body of Christ? If PG stop sinning against the body of Christ with his robbery, arrogant lordship and hypocrisy, do you think people would like to simply make courtcase, writing blog, or have much time voicing up in AGM? I just don't understand. Why ask the people who are the victim to be quiet, yet never deal with the robber? If there is a thorn in our skin that is hurting us, do we remove the thorn or the nerve of our skin? Strange.. If any of you who don't wish all these happen, you should go and tell Prince Gunetranum, APs & his deacons to repent, and stop all their dirty schemes. Stop the criminals from commiting crimes, not the victims from demanding justice.
October 13, 2010 10:08 PM
TO:Anonymous
October 13, 2010 12:09 AM
FR: OBSERVER2:
Your view " ... seeing Christians at each others' throats?" need to be corrected.
Far from it! Concerned Members of TTG are courageously coming against THE LIES< DECIET> GREED >AND UNRIGHTEOUS under the leadership of PG, who has become law onto himself!
Hope those who might be thinking like you, would not be deceived anymore--only the Devil wish you so!
Be vigilant. Be wise.
( read John 18 & 19--see how those high priests like *Annas and Caiaphas acted with their mob supporters to deny TRUTH.
It's is not unlike what is happening in Calvary Church, in particular at the AGM, EGM--whereby, PG & BOD & APs connive to humiliate and condemn those bold enough to expose their wicked ways.
Be warned,even those who blindly assented to what
ever PG& BOD 'decreed' was the right thing to do will be similarly judged by Almighty God.
October 14, 2010 2:41 AM
To all PG, AP and BOD supporters,
You have heard (and maybe seen), dont you all want clarification of what is happening?When the judgement day comes you cant say you didnt know what is happening.Do you choose what you want to heard?Be wise and ask GOd for guidance.Do not be blind....
It is good that TTG and CT have acted courageously to expose what has been happening behind closed doors during Calvary Church AGMs.
Now with the videos tapes on the AGM proceedings been put up here even overseas AG preachers can access and hear the familiar voices here namely, PG's voice and Steven Kum's voice! Now they can be made aware how PG acted as an autocratic and abusive Chairman and Senior Pastor.
PG does not respect and recognise his sheep's concerns or rights instead PG bulldozes his way around and his associate pastors and deacons are just his puppets and henchmen. They will escort any person, male or female out of the meeting if PG instructs them to do so and as he deems fit!
There is every semblance of a cult assembly in this church... there is no mercy and grace in CC anymore. It has fallen to the pits. Why talk as if it is still a fountain head church?
Listen to the jeers and boos by PG's supporters in the background against the few brave TTG representatives who spoke up. They are obviously mindless and blind sheep, merely following the leaders because they lacked discernment and understanding. How sad as when the truth dawns on them it will be really a huge blow.
October 14, 2010 9:36 PM
Power corrupts and corrupts absolutely. While PG had good intentions when he started his ministry in the 70s, he has been led astray by materialism, greed and power. He has lost totally his original focus and has become a consumer of prosperity theology. This theogy aiming to prosper himself while he sells the dream to others. I doubt that he does any quiet time nor he talks sincerely to god. It is likely that he has a zero personal relationship with God. I attended a few of his sermons recently and they were absolutely rubbish. Theology twisted and taken out of context. Why not just leave the church? Justice may not be achieved this lifetime. Just like the Israelites that died during roman preoccupation. Justice will be achieved eventually.
Choose you this day who you want to serve......the plantiffs and the 400 odd axed Calvarites chose to suffer persecution rather than follow PG and his 'high priests (aps) and the sanhedrin (bod).
Surely the Lord who is the Truth, the Way and the Life will vindicate and let His glory shine forth.
Take heart all those who choose to follow the Lord all the way - You are His sheep because you obey Him.
Can't say for those who choose to ignore the fundamentals of Christian living because they want to continue to earn the fat salaries from CC or BOD (so like Pilate who chose to crucify Jesus because he valued his position as governor).
Those who jeered and booed during AGM whenever the brave 5 spoke - are they not like the crowd who demanded our Lord Jesus to be crucified????
October 15, 2010 1:00 PM
TO OBSERVER2 SAID:
"Think again. There is only one person laughing at all this, and it's not 'PG & his LEGIONS'. What would please this person more than seeing Christians at each others' throats?"
HAHAHAHAHA said:
When PG changed church Constitution, Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG was sacked from Lake Club, Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG was sighted at Sun Complex, Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG was raided by IRB,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG transfered RM1.9M to CIM,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG transfered funds from WAGRA to CIM
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG transfered earthquake funds to CIM,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG conducted a witchhunt,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG sacked 400 members from CC, Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG gave police his statement, Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG had Bookshop registered under his wife's name,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG had tape ministry under his son's name,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG had counseling ministry under his daughter's name,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG refused mediation and arbitration,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG lied to NECF on CIM,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
When PG engaged a freemason architect for CCC,
Who was laughing....HAHAHAHAHA?
IS PRINCE G LAUGHING...HAHAHAHAHA? IS PRINCE D LAUGHING.............
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......?
WHO IS LAUGHING?
THINK ABOUT IT !!!!!!!!
October 15, 2010 1:08 PM
'Facts are Not Truth'. Believe it, it's from PG!
It seems to me, many out there still cannot see the situation in CC for what it is. The issue is not about "getting at" PG & BOD but, is stopping the rot of their unrighteous ways in their actions in the stewardship of the Church administration-from the Extended Ministries, Missions Funds, to Finance.
PG was probably right when he tried to confuse "Fact & Truth" giving variations of his interpretation (Yes his very own interpretation--which he has been doing, even for God's Word) in his preamble message at the AGM.
He said *"Do not take "Facts as Truth". ( You see, he knew the TTG had facts about all the abuses he committed, so he was inferring it may not be truth--yeah,so what do expect from a crafty man).
Well, the statement he made actually bore out how his scheming mind works. And therefore if you are wise enough, you'd better believe those *Accounts/ Audit, Ministries, Dept. and CCC Reports in the CC Annual Report. They are supposedly to be "facts", but then they may not be "truth", taken in PG's context. How true indeed!
()I gathered from the CT's Clip of AGM-the clever selective and rationalised MInutes of Meeting is one of the best examples)
We thank God that He enlightens those whose mind are attuned to His truth.
October 15, 2010 1:25 PM
The evidence is compelling enough for me.Calvary has all the signs of a cultic following. When the members stop thinking and start to yell " Amen" to everything that is said- satan is whispering amen too!! Wake up before the real trouble begins- which I believe is heading Calvary's way real soon.
October 15, 2010 7:38 PM
So frigthening to hear the lies being told by PG, Associate Pastors and deacons. The more lies they speak, the more they have to spin in order to cover up their earlier ones.
See what PG says: "Facts are not the truth!" It is a play on words and we know that PG does not follow the rules, he just creates his rules to suit his circumstances. There is no more fear of God in CC leadership.
Why are deacons keeping quiet except for those appointed to speak by PG? The deacons are blinded and simply refuse to allow the truth to some forth. They are just hero worshippers of PG and in a deep trance .. even to extent to dare to say their hero is righteous. Why such deep deception? So so sad that so-called matured Christian leaders have gone down so low.
Don't they know that they are responsible for the spiritual well being of the believers who look up to them over the years? How can they throw away decades of friendship just for the sake of covering up for one man? Is it worth it, to remain loyal to one who is no longer a God fearing person and meant to be a pastor and leader?
Where are CC pastors and deacons heading for? Self deception, complete loss of integrity and spiritual decadence...
October 15, 2010 10:31 PM
My Response to Clips 5 & the absent Clip 6 on the CCC
-------------------------------
These clips basically relates to Missions and the CCC.
1. Review and amend the Missions Manual? Yes, this is long overdue as the definition of Extended/Auxiliary Ministries is ambiguous and really no one appears to be able to understand but more importantly, can justify the existing definition.
2. The destination of Faith Promise collections are now clearly articulated and shared openly. Further, all the Extended Ministries Accounts are now tabled and available for scrutiny. As shared by the Missions Director, the process of ensuring some form of objectivity is being exercised – i.e. the Missions Committee and Board of Deacons are parties to the final decision of where funds are to be channeled notwithstanding the end authority is SP. As such, I see no reason for any of us to continue to “complain” and cry foul of this issue. I think we should move on instead of harping again and again on old issues.
3. CARED and CARE? Who is lying and who is not? So unnecessary! Again I say, just move on! But having said this, the whole issue on “missions” will only be resolved when the Extended/Auxiliary Ministries are properly defined and may I add, authority and accountability appropriately set out.
4. Coming to the CCC – we MUST make the distinction between firstly, whether it is God’s will for us to construct a new edifice and secondly, what the cost will be. WE CANNOT CONFUSE THE TWO ISSUES. In other words, believing that it is God’s will to build DOES NOT give us a free hand to spend any amount of money on it. It is unfortunate that some people think that questioning the cost is tantamount to questioning God’s will. The vision may be from God, but the cost is OUR decision – we should never drag God’s name into the “how much”.
5. In other words, after agreeing that its God’s will to build, we must ask next what is God’s will with regards to the cost. AGAIN, THE TWO IS NOT THE SAME. Spending say RM50m is something most if not all members can accept; spending RM150m - well some members already feel this is too much since they feel that while God would want us to spend our resources for more important things closer to His heart.
6. Now, if the cost increases to say RM200m, RM250m or even RM300m or even more (note that up to this point we do not even know what the final estimated cost will be); then surely we must ask whether God wants us to spend so much money for a building. We cannot and should not be so blind and spiritually so immature to say that God's vision/will for us to build the CCC means that a blank cheque for us to spend whatever WE think we want to spend and then conveniently couch this under “God’s will”.
7. While I do believe that it is God's will is for us to build something “substantial” in our country in light of the present time and circumstances we are living in, I am also very clear that the design and how much we want to spend is OUR decision. Questioning the wisdom of spending so much money is NOT, I repeat NOT questioning God's will to build.
8. Fact vs Truth? Faith vs Thinking? Something we hear very often nowadays. No, these are not mutually exclusive but rather they are all part and parcel of living a life pleasing before God. Surely no one can be so spiritually blind and immature to say that it doesn’t matter how much we spend on the CCC. So, how much is too much? And this, may I add reverently, is a SPIRITUAL question!
October 15, 2010 11:37 PM
3. "CARED and CARE? Who is lying and who is not? So unnecessary! "
What a Dangerous stance, to say the least--unless this person is devoid of integrity himself/herself and hates truth.
No wonder, PG & BOD--like Edward Rajasingam who has turned another stand-up Mouth-piece for PG ) would treat the Congregation like fools!
Isn't when Pastors & Deacons are lying and trying to hook wink the members a SERIOUS matter? And that manipulation to the point of dishonesty can be condoned?
If lying was OK, why is Satan called a LIAR? Would you like to check with God what His Word is concerning this. "So Unnecessary" ? or So serious to be condemned?
October 16, 2010 1:32 AM
A pastor in the rural area or in Sarawak & Sabah would probably earn around RM2,000 to RM3,000 per month. Let's take an average of RM2,500. Supporting a pastor for one year = RM30,000 and for ten years = RM300,000. Supporting 10 pastors for 10 years = RM3 million; supporting 100 pastors for 10 years = RM30 million and supporting 300 pastors for 10 years = RM90 million.
Just imagine if we use part of the "CCC expenses" for this call of God. 300 pastors doing the work of the Gospel, proclaiming that Jesus is Lord & Saviour, touching countless lives, bring thousands to the saving knowledge and grace of Jesus. Just imagine! God's heart will surely be glad! Someone may say that we cannot compare the two (giving to support pastors all over the country who is doing God's work with the buidling of the CCC); we cannot compare apples to oranges. You are right; there is no comparison since its more than clear that God's heart is with supporting people, especially those who have left everything to do His will.
Yes, we can be the "fountain-head" church which God intended us to be but the CCC (in its current form and cost) may not be the way which God wants His will to be fulfilled. Yes, we can achieve our destiny to be the "fountain-head" church by spearheading God's work through the support of all those who are involved with His work who need resources as that God's be done! God's will for us as the "fountain-head" church is not through a physical building (although there is nothing wrong in constructing one) but is is through our church laying down her life for the other churches who may lack the necessary resources or who have challenges that they cannot meet on their own. If we do this, then we will naturally be looked upon (there's no need for us to announce it all the time) by the other churches, the nation and a "fountain-head" church, don't you think so?
October 16, 2010 9:31 AM
Was There said, "CARED and CARE? Who is lying and who is not? So unnecessary!"
Shocking statement! So unnecessary! If someone is lying then he must be corrected. and the truth be told. Otherwise the lie will become truth in time unless this is what PG & BOD wants - to cover up their past tracts by rewriting "historic" events.
If it is not important whether CARE or CARED is one or separate, may I ask you humbly...... What about
Prince Guneratnam and Prince Guneratnam JUNIOR and Prince Guneratnam III
Are these three above ONE and the same or different person???
October 16, 2010 10:15 AM
Prince Guneratnam and Prince Guneratnam Junior and Prince Guneratnam III.
They are Asians trying to be Americans..taking full pride that there is a strong legacy being left behind.
This also signals that there is a dynasty being built through the generations.
CC members better be on watch out...your Senior Pastor is not a simple straight forward person. The signs of human pride and arrogance are written all over for everyone to see. It is no laughing matter.
God wants His children to be wise and discerning with their minds being enlightened through His living Word.
October 16, 2010 5:49 PM
@Anonymous Oct 16 @931an. How I wish it was true that rural pastors in Sarawak and Sabah is supported between RM2,000 to RM3,000. The reality is most do not even receive support of RM1,000. Do check with SIB churches for more accurate figure.
October 17, 2010 9:53 PM
Oh, in that case, RM90 million will support 750 pastors (instead of 300) for 10 years. Just imagine! Perhaps the CCC which is gobbling so much resources is not the way God wants us to fulfil our destiny as the "fountain-head" church. By all means construct a building for God but I agree that we must be mindful of how we use our resources; otherwise, we will be found wanting before God in our stewardship of what He has given us. Surely we must seek the heart of God rather than simply deciding to building the CCC at all cost!
October 18, 2010 12:13 AM
WELL SAID to "3 in 1??? " and Bravo to your stand re "CARED and CARE? Who is lying and who is not? So unnecessary!"
By the way, what you said "unless this is what PG & BOD wants - to cover up their past tracts by rewriting "historic" events." is, unfortunately very true, "no unless", but a glaring fact that they have been at it for the longest time--COVER UP:((
At the AGM, why didn't PG or his wife Petrina Guneratnam VP, of CIM which established CARED, stand-up to own-up?
or,
any of the other Deacons who had actually approved of the transfer of Missions Funds to CARED, correct Steven Kum who claimed it belonged Missions Dept?
or,
worst of all, the chief collaborator to PG's scheming, Peter Ong who carried out the act, didn't come forward to tell the truth?
Instead they all tried to run down Liza.
October 18, 2010 12:36 AM
When it was still with CC, it was CARE as then PG CAREs,
Then it was transferred to CIM (PG's personal ministry) & it showed PG's heart condition, as it was CARED which really described PG's heart.
From the CID point of view, since PG formed CARED within CIM when there was a CARE in CC perhaps PG's motive was so that any cheque received in the name of CARE of CC can be easily converted to CARED of CIM by adding the alphabet "D".
Any comments from Sherlock Holmes?
October 18, 2010 11:56 PM
Heard a challenging message by Ps David Seah last Sunday. It was a call for us not to be gated-community Christians. Thinking about it many of us are actually doing our bit. However when I think of our church, this is where the I am struck by the fact that we are probably the best example of a gated-community church in Malaysia.
When all churches got together to fast and pray for the nation, where were we? Ah yes, we were praying too but in our gated-community.
When all churches got together to try to understand and discuss how we as the Church in Malaysia can address issues confronting our nation, where were we? Ah yes, we were planning for some activities or other but in our gated-community.
When all churches got together to try to see how we can help each other, especially those churches who have less resources, where were we? Ah yes, we were planning for our CCC, in our gated-community.
When churches were concern over the injustice and corruption in our nation and began educating their members to be responsible citizens and get involve in society at large, where were we? Ah yes, we were also educating our members and asking them to be involved in giving more money in our gated-community.
Ps David Seah's message was indeed something which God has sent to challenge all of us but especially Calvary Church, the gated-community church.
Annoymous Oct 19 @5.18 pm
Clap clap clap!! Well said indeed! Reasons why gated community is applied very strictly because members will remain loyal to PG and APs and BOD and they will be forever stunted in Christian life, oblivious to what is happening outside of the gated community.
If members are allowed to connect with others outside of gated community their eyes may be opened and consequently financial resources will flow out of CC treasury to other deserving organisations.
PG and APs cannot allow funds to be dissipated to other deserving parties hence better confine them within gated community at all costs!
PG and APs couldn't be bothered about spiritual needs of members, just interested with what they can drain out of members' wallets and accounts.
CC members better wake up and be aware that you have been lulled by false security of gated community in CC for decades.
October 19, 2010 11:03 PM
To annoy of 19 Oct 7:38pm;
Oh yes, Ps Seah's message indeed is challenging, but like all other sermons from CC pastors, they never challenge themselves. It is just a make up sermon that mean nothing to them. They preach to us, demanding us to give, serve, give and serve but never remind themselves. How often we serve in church till late at night, tired and weary, but the pastors inlcuding Ps David never even provide a finger to lift our burdens. Lip service is easy. Nowadays pastors have so much time going to gym and all lesture pleasure activities but the members have to serve tirelessly. We all bear the wrinkle and dark circle at our eyes, toiling and laboring for the work of the Lord, and they just take the credit even stealing it from God. Yes, including Ps David who once shy, but now like PG. If he means what he say, let him first voice it to PG and the APs.
October 19, 2010 11:03 PM
Don't know about CC being a GCC - gated community church.
I have always thought that with PG at the helm, CC is more of a CCC - controlled community church.
Guess who is the controller of CCC?
No prizes will be given for correct answers as all who have been in CC long enough would know the correct answer, who else but ........
October 20, 2010 12:55 AM
It was reported by some parents that a group of young working adults were being told to occupy the 1st two front rows and should there be any of the TTG will to give troubles they are to act as bouncers!! Those parent will curious about them siting in front and when confronted their kids later, thie kids told them they are being instructed to do so. Those parents were rather annoyed and immediate pull their kids to another church!
To them it is like a cult activities where churches should not encourage that!
Can anyone verify this?
In a normal AGM, the shareholders with equities are entitle to attend and participate. In CC, all the members are Zero Cent Share holders. Hence, the way PG is treating the members is that they have no said in any matter.PG can do anything he likes!
So for the PG's supporters, CC' full time workers and Pastors,especially the BOD, it makes no different between TTG and you all! You thought you are very obedient but actually you all are "Bodoh Sombong"!
In Genesis 25:29-34; Esau despised his birthright for red stew! There is no different you guy with Esau as you all did not stand for the righteous! Continue to protect PG and you all should know now that Church can be sue after the few rounds of High court cases! More suits will follows!!
Who is the guard??
If CC is a gated community church, then who is sitting at the guardhouse?
No wonder 400 members not allowed to go in the gated community church.
You are only allowed in when you have a pass....(name tag)
No pass no entry !!!!!!!
Such is a gated community church
Now who is the GUARD at the guardhouse????
October 20, 2010 3:15 PM
Gated Community in CC said...
"If members are allowed to connect with others outside of gated community their eyes may be opened and consequently financial resources will flow out of CC treasury to other deserving organisations."
You hit it on the bull's eye ........
I remember many many years ago, PG said "there are many organisations out there soliciting for funds BUT you, Calvarites, should NOT give to them instead you, Calvarites, should give to the church (CC) & we will decide who to give to".
Now we know why PG said that BECAUSE if you give to others that means you have less to give to CC.
BUT when you give to CC (as in the case of the Indonesian Earthquake Relief Funds collected in 2006), guess where your money goes to ........ CIM (PG's personal ministry or is it PG's personal coffers?).
So Calvarites who are still "camping" at CC ............ Wake Up, Wise Up & Don't get conned by PG anymore. The Bible says in James 1:5 that if we lack wisdom (aka discernment), we can just ask God for it; so just do it, pray for God to open your eyes & ears to see through the wool that PG has pulled over your eyes all these years.
Even our good friend "Discernment Needed" appears to have more discernment nowadays compare with 1 year ago, guess he must have been praying very hard for discernment.
Well done, Discernment Needed.
October 20, 2010 7:23 PM
What is all the jeering and boooing about during church meetings? Dont they know that in our Dewan Rakyat everyone has a right to speak- whether its the ruling party or the opposition? Of course there are those who "boo"- referred by Malays as "kurang ajar"- which has a horrible connotation in Malay-poor family breeding. I urge all members of Gods family not to humiliate our brothers and sisters during meetings. They have a right to voice their concerns. And Christians think they can run this country better? How pathetic is the church these days!!! TTG - I may disagree with what you say but I will to the death your right to say it. Farewell, Brothers!!!
Christian Law Lecturer.
October 20, 2010 7:34 PM
Have done it before and doing it now.
Just to clarify that the "Discernment Needed" commenting here is NOT the "original" Discernment Needed - his/her (i.e. my) position has not changed, namely both sides have their weaknesses and strength. Those who are unhappy with what's happening should not make baseless allegations and those who are "in-charge" should exhibit real Christian care, concern & love - people matters, and matters the most. In the final analysis, the power to make lasting changes must begin with the existing church leadership, the responsibility falls squarely on them.
Sorry to disappoint "Got Discernment".
A Minor Correction
I may disagree with what you say but I will to the death your right to say it.Farewell, Brothers!!!
The above should read:- I may disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it.( Not an original quote)
If what is written here is factual- then it is a real cause of concern for AOG generally.In any endeavour, business & politics,the minority wll have to gave way to the majority policies- unless there is fraud or oppression.TTG has a legitimate right to voice their concerns without harassment.Now switching off the microphones while the opposition is talking...? Now what kind of order is that?? Let the truth surface and then healing and reconciliation can begin.I want to say this again- to those who try to silence others by shouting down the opposition-I would aassume your church constitution allows for some decorum in your meetings? YOU are a complete disgrace.Its a sorry state of affairs that the Chairman did not did not intervene.Mr Chairman- whoever you are-I believe you should recuse- step down.All meetings must be done according to the Rules- and even the Chairman must be subject to it.No exceptions.
Christian Law Lecturer
October 21, 2010 1:59 PM
Ahem. The Chairman DID request those who were voicing their feelings aloud to stop doing that.
NEMO JUDEX CAU SUA SUA is a fundamental principle of natural justice which states that no person can judge a case in which he or she is party or in which he/she has an interest.
I am in agreement with the Christian Law lecturer.Further,it appears that the Chairman also has been accused of some misdeamenour relating to church $$$.If that is the case, I must assume that it is unconstitutional for the Chairman to preside over the meetings. Justice must not only be done , but it must be seen to be done.Regretabbly, some signs of a cult are evident in CC.( Rev. Jim Jones and Dacvid Koresh had the same kind of support from church people).
The Telescope Club.
October 22, 2010 2:31 PM
It had been announced that during the conference in Stockholm PG is elected to a top post. As his usual self - holding top positions, titles and projection of grant undertakings, he has committed to hold the next conference in 2013 in CCC.
As it is, the completion date of CCC is debatable. So tell me in 2013 will all the facilities be completed in time for the conference or use the for the sanctuary for the conference and let the delegates stay in hotels like Palace of the Golden Horses or the resort within walking distance?
So you can be sure that there will be many fund raising campaign to come and much more to realise his egoistic ambitions. Those who support him and his visions, be prepared to dig deep into your pockets and like he said "get a loan and advance to CCC." Me? I better keep my money in the bank for a rainy day(mine not CCC's).
October 23, 2010 1:31 AM
Can anyone confirm how much was collected during the "advance" campaign? No announcement by the church leaders. If the campaign is a success, probably Ps SK will proudly make an announcement, grinning from ear to ear.Some say RM6M. Does this figure include the RM3M that had been pledge by the tiga kaki leaders? Whatever it is, let's say RM9M. Then this is a miserable figure considering all the hype! It is only 25% of the projected figure. Otherwise it is only 17%.
So PG and the fund raising committee had fall flat on their faces! The hardest hit is PG and bro. Han. By the way, bro. Han's projections are always off the mark. I remember some time ago he had all this elaborate presentation showing various calvarites giving various sums. This, too, fell flat.
Don't they ever learn? The signs are there. CCC will drain the church and members dry! Even his ardent supporters are not fully convinced on the viability of this mammoth undertaking. How else can you explain the pathetic collection. Whose vision is this? Think logically before you answer, considering the unaccountable skyrocketing cost, the lack of funds, a contractor who failed miserably to fulfill his obligations and a failed "Advance Giving" campaign.
PG will now change his tune and say "Take a loan and give it to CCC as we need the money these two years while you can take a much longer time to pay back". Then you not only have to repay the loan but absorb the interests! A different kind of sharks.
October 23, 2010 3:13 PM
EVANGELICAL COUNCIL FOR FINANCIAL ACCOUNTABILITY
Accountability to God is vital, but people form their impressions by looking at the outward appearances (1 Samuel 16:7).
The basis for establishing ECFA and developing Standards of Responsible Stewardship is stated clearly by the Apostle Paul in 2 Corinthians 8:21 (NIV): “For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.”
If any church is serious about financial accountability, may I suggest the church adopt the standards and best practices recommended by the ECFA.
You can find details at: http://www.ecfa.org/PDF/BestPractices-Churches.pdf
Regards
Vijay
October 27, 2010 1:45 PM
ALAS, if ONLY PG and his minions know what ACCOUNTABILITY means, this current debacle in CC
wouldn't have reached this state of hopelessness!
On the contrary, PG RULED lawlessly, and hold himself as all powerful.
Look at how PG, Mission Director and Deacons transfer funds as and how they wish.. give to who they fancy... spend without criteria--perks &benefits ... decide first and rectify later for expenditure... commit to contracts without first going to the Members but always after the fact or act...etc
Now to be fair, PG did openly tell-off the members that they have No right to even ask!!! Well,well this is what accountability is, to him. Any surprise?
p/s Bro. Vjay, would you be kind enough to send PG a hard copy of ECFA?
October 28, 2010 1:11 AM
Worshipper for 25 years says..
Thanks a million! I have read about the church which borrowed money to build and now has to file for bankruptcy.Entitled " US Church Files for Bankruptcy".
Look like CCC is heading in that direction ? And the CC leadership is stubborn as a donkey? It is simply beyond redemption! Will Church leaders' Lavish lifestyles bring about their sharp downfall?
Will Overseas prophecies for Malaysia turn out to be TRUE ?
October 28, 2010 11:47 AM
Seeing that PG & Family together with his 'followers' have a stranglehold on all Calvary Church decision making without Transparency, Truth & Godly Governance .....maybe ...
In the near future, one of us will chronicle "The Privatization of Calvary Church".
The privatization of
1. Mission Funds (to CIM),
2. Extended Ministries and
3. more likely Calvary Convention Centre too.
In order for that to succeed PG needs 'followers' (cabal of like-minded deacons & church leaders) to subscribe to the notion that privatization should also be good for the church or religious organizations.
Can someone timeline when privatization in Calvary Church started and juxtaposed to that of the Government sectors?
Is Calvary Church being hollowed out (not just of the 400 members) and the 'branding of the SP for privatization to succeed?
Come to think of it isn't that what TTG & its followers in this blog (in so many posts, comments etc.) & elsewhere are voicing out against.
Perhaps TTG will post "The Privatization of Calvary Church" sometime soon.
Peace of Christ dear brothers and sisters,
I have been following your blog posts. Firstly thank you for TTG's bravado to seek the truth and expose the many injustices of CC - PG & his cohorts.
So much has been said and yet they are allowed to have a free hand at lording it over the people.
PG started out with true intentions but as the years have gone by, materialsim has taken over.
Calvary Church no loger is what it started out as - a joy-filled Christ centred organisation.
Now it takes and takes $$$.
Sadly the most affected are our newly baptised brothers and sisters from other faiths or who were free thinkers. They are easily brainwashed into giving away their hard earned $$$ and listening to PG and his cohorts to "redeem your souls or else...damnation awaits thee!" Why i heard from a friend, to the point of separating family members and even courting couples!
Dear CC members stand up for what you see and know is not of God. Truly you are answerable to God and no one else.
I pray that PG, PG2 and his cohorts will meet their downfall by the close of 2010 for all injustices and hurt caused by them.
AMEN
Dear CC,
Stop the begging....how long can you go on....People will come to know that CC has got a hugh......enormous debt and will avoid CC. How long can CC's debt go on.....Once CCC's shell is completed, how about the fixtures and the others.....maintenance of the building will be there but how much will it be....servicing the loan itself is a hugh amount.A congregation of 5000 people (at the moment members are decreasing rapidly) now looks impossible....I know you will say God will provide but lets be realistic.....God will provide yes but how much.....the total I estimate (I am not an accountant but anybody can do simple maths) RM500million?.....total after paying the loans and interest....anybody want to calculate?!....maybe God is putting his hand in not making CCC a reality but we are stubborn and blind.Why use RM500million for 5000 people.Use to do missions and and help those who are in real need of the $$$.RM500 million is not a small sum....So what if we have used RM50million (rough estimate) already.Just forget ie....(dont be penny wise pound foolish).Use the balance RM450million to save the other who are in need.....
I pray that those involve in the CCC project will wise up!!!!......you can learn even from a fool
Dear Calvarites,
WHAT MORE SIGNS DO YOU WANT TO SEE?
God is shaking His Church bacause He wants A Glorious and Radiant Church as His Bride.
The writings on the walls. Sn Pastor's harden heart. Shifting funds to Personal Ministry. Creating Extended Ministries for Children. Changing Constitution to give him absolute power. Crafting Mission Manual to shift funds. Corrupting the Associate Pastors. Picking YesMen Deacons. Zero tolerance of dissent. Ruthless Sacking of 400 church members. Cultivating Bouncers in AGM. Altering Minutes. Engaging Best Heartless lawyer. Bend All Rules to survive. Building Grandiose Project without counting cost. Travelling First Class all the ways. Grooming son into top positions..etc..etc..
If these are not enough signs, take a look at CCC ..with Freemason architect..failed contractor..hundreds of million funding shortage..etc.
Every Calvarite, please pray for God's discernment! Calvary Church can only be saved if only PG were to go. But, the pains will be for years.
Fr CT2 @ November 11, 2010 11:07 PM
Dear Calvarites,
PG is in the best position to raise funds from abroad. He, as the Chairman of Pentecostal World Fellowship with worldwide connection, can and should be able to raise hundreds of millions.
If he can't do that by 2013 when the world conference is held in Malaysia, there would be something terribly wrong with him or with all these world leaders.
Whether it happens or not, he is going to spend hundreds of thousands ringgit for his worldwide travel. If it includes his wife --and his son ---and his daughter, it would cost double or triple. Who is going to pay? Of course, Calvary Church, members and the worshippers.
Members, please be warned. BOD and auditors, please pay some attention. I hope it won't happen. I pray it won't happen. If it does happen, don't be surprised. And don't be angry..for I am telling you now before it happens.
Fr CT2 @ November 12, 2010 10:49 PM
Not long from now, we will see in many christian buletines/magazines worldwide entitled: the FALL OF CHURCH LEADERS AND THEIR FANS....
1). millions $$$ could be used to feed the hungry n the roofless in this land, why r u so blind?
2). JESUS is not interested in big building, did not even have the courage to name it CHURCH...NO URGENCY FOR SOULS AT ALL...
3)SERMONS are all about give more money to ccc, coz God loves cheerful givers, thats your reasons
4.) courageous bothers n sisters, lets carry on the fight towards the end time anti-christ propaganda, we are just a prayer away...
Fr CT2 @ November 12, 2010 11:13 PM
Now you can understand why PG has to shift RM1.9 million to CIM!
He has to travel..first class, of course.
The wife wants to go along.
The son has to be exposed. Shoot a footage of his oversea trip to justify it. Otherwise, how to ask for more money. Of course for son to go, it will cost another ten thousand ringgit.
So many small churches and poor pastors need the money. This 1.9m can do so much for them and so much for God's work. But, PG and family will use it for expensive trips in style and class of a world- class leader.
Many Calvarites say it's ok because they are rich. The Deacons say it's ok becoz he deserves the best from God as the No 1. The Associates Pastors say it's ok becoz he serves 40 years and with entire life. This is the theology of a mega church in this new age.
What would Jesus say of all these? We can say anything but amounts to nothing if Jesus disapprove.
Fr CT2 @ November 13, 2010 6:07 PM
Dear "still there" cc members.
What are you all still waiting for? For the big man and his gang to sapu everything from you ah? Your money, your trust, your soul, your mind.
Why you still listen, listen, listen and give, give, give your hard earned money and precious time?
If all of you want a good, meaningful Christmas open your eyes and minds and stop the Rot now. PG and gang have to go. Now and that is final.
A visiting pastor to Calvary Church preached last Sunday's message on the devil in the church and loyalty to the church. He also mentioned that he has axed people from his church because they were disapproving of his leadership. He says the 'devil' can be among members, elders, deacons, church workers and even pastors.
Fr CT2 @ November 16, 2010 4:34 PM
A pastor who takes his church as his turf will always brand those who question him as 'enemies' and 'devils'. It's the same all over for this 'type of bad pastors'.
A good pastor never believe the church as his. He only believe the church belongs to Christ and Christ alone. He can accept critique as part of church growth and Kingdom building.
There is no bad sheep. Only bad pastors who are wolves in sheep clothings.
Fr CT2 @ November 17, 2010 1:04 AM
you worship in a hut or a palace, that's not what our Lord is concern. Bro. n sis. we urge u to watch you tube( which our lord also uses if appropriate )to tell the people what is going on. suggestion:
..prosperity pimps
.. false prophets conspiracy of silence
..money prosperity preachers
..walid shoebat
and many more...
Pls share with others, don't assume that they know. would not hurt so bad if had watch you tube earlier.
a preacher said about the devil in the church is nothing new, let God be the judge ....if u have lots in your resources, pls give to the poor church or the needy, so many are waiting out there. Let no be deceived further...pls alert us fast for any info...shalom...
Fr CT2 @ November 17, 2010 1:08 AM
Speaker & PG in THE SAME BOAT
PG has always used his Invited "SPEAKERS" to be his mouth piece to deal with ISSUES he faces in CC. It's so plain to see what is motive is--to get 'reinforcement' to justify his ways in the treatment of congregation in CC.
And of course, his kind of Network are "birds of the same feathers", so there is no surprise one bit what this speaker deliver over the Pulpit was PG's message and not God's Word!
To those who truly wants to know what a genuine
Pastor's Responsibilities are according to Hebrews 13 please visit www. sibkl.org.my and LISTEN carefully.
Praise God for His timely Word to us who need to know which kind of *Pastor we are to submit to, and which we should never ever be fooled into blind submission just because he says " I am your pastor, you know".
To be sure, the PASTOR must *first be Doctrinally sound on the Word of God i.e.Teaching from the Bible AS IS, without his own interpretation, manipulation, adding to or subtraction from it. And not pander to those listening to him, and with self-ulterior motives and fulfill his personal agenda!
Secondly, the pastor is morally pure in his way of life-- walking the talk which ought to be evident--in the ways of Christ.
Let's hope CC members who were at the service did : "Put on the full armor of God, so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes." Eph 6;11
Fr CT2 @ November 17, 2010 8:00 PM
Tan Sri, Dato are earthly names and title from man.Pastors are recognition of people who preached God’s word and practice them and live a life that is pleasing to God and an example to Christians.After reading, hearing and seeing with my own eyes on what is happening, the word ‘Pastor’ in CC is not a living example and does not act as one.Yes he teaches the word of God (anyone can preach the word that is why we have Sunday school teachers,my faith teachers,life group leaders,etc)but it is for(from my point of view)his own benefit and spike/stab/hit the congregation on the pulpit.The word PG in this site for me now reads Prince G. and no longer reads Pastor G.
I know many have left CC and gone to other churches.Last Sunday after 20+yrs of attending CC I visited another church as an invitation from a friend and what a surprise, I saw many exCC and we wished each other. If I did not know where I am,I would have thought I am in CC.All have left for the same reason.Looks like I will call that my home church from now on.The exCC there says they are comfortable with the new found church and will also call that their home church.Looks like CC have lost/will loose many more members.How can you call a church without members,especially when the members are leaving slowly but surely(I pray this will not happen).CCC will be a white elephant and will be for who? I don’t think it will be filled to its capacity as planned.Right now even the 5pm service has been change to Contemporary Service and for youth?What happened to the youth ministry(formally known as CAs)Why is it the case?cos there are not enough members to fill the seats. 8am service is half filled(the no. looks like the 5pm service before).10.30am service before has not enough seats at times but now the members are like the 8am service. Life groups in houses have fallen(I personally know of at least 2 house have been closed due to lack of members).What happened to the handicap ministry that attends the services?Is our church now lack in serving the handicap?Is it because they can’t contribute(I pray that this is not true)thats why they are now not in church(can someone enlighten me on what happened to them).Membership is open to who?I know of some members that one of the spouse is a member but the other is an associate and even not a members because of some T&C?Why is that?Isn’t church about family?Why is that there a separation?What is the use of being a member if in the AGM/EGM members are not allowed to voice out opinion/questions.Even those who do literally are ask to ‘shut up’, speakers turned off, call to be seated, speakers take away and even the member will be taken away(next will be carried away literally…hahaha),even in the circular world members are free to ask any question,why is CC so great that the members are refrained to speak up?Till today after reading and surfing this blog,I see that there have been no response to any of the comments from PG , BOD or from his Cronies to defend himself/themselves.Even in a court the guilty parties has got something to say for himself/herself.Even in court the guilty will confess either ‘Guilty or Not Guilty’.Have God taken their ability to type?but to speak only on the pulpit to hit others?SPEAK UP PG and BOD and defend……show proof if all is said is untrue.Do it in this blog.Is it that difficult compared with doing it on the pulpit. If TTG is wrong I am sure they will apologies publicly,it take guts to speak in AGM openly I am sure they will confess if they are wrong openly.Do what is right and shame the devil and make the heaven rejoice.Even a soul is saved the Angels in heaven rejoices,imagine what will happen in heaven if the right thing is done on earth.Many have back slidden and change churches for the one that change churches is not as bad but for the one that have back slidden is worst.I am sure you all do not want to be responsible for them.Why save new souls when the old ones go astray,which is bad/worst?
Unbelievable a "pastor" can Boast of Axing his members! ( PG & him must hv exchanged notes)
"He also mentioned that he has axed people from his church because they were disapproving of his leadership. He says the 'devil' can be among members, elders, deacons, church workers and even pastors."
Q. Did this 'Pastor' elaborate?
To my knowledge, a member of a Church cannot be AXED, just because the pastor's "PRide" is hurt? And Did he say that his Leadership was that which follows after Christ--Servant King, or simply all about his EGO and he thinks he has the right to lord over the members?
It seems a case of acting "BOSS & down trodden Kuli" rather than "Shepherd & his precious Sheep"
Fr CT2 @ November 23, 2010 1:20 AM
I fully agree with the last comment. Pastor cannot axe a member. All axed, and present angry CC members exercise your full right as a free and born again Christian.
Go to the meeting this Friday 26th Nov. This is your best chance to stand up for the truth. The truth will set you free from PG, PG2 and gang.
The CC/ CCC saga has been going on too long. Bye bye manipulators/ brainwashers - PG PG2 and gang - time to go for good.
must agree with u read JOHN, did Jesus Christ cast away anyone who come to him ? he died for sinners not GOOD PEOPLE. Can a person be axed away from the kingdom of God by another human? think again, don't play play God ya, human...n sinner like me...May your blessing shower us this Christmas n many more....
November 23, 2010 10:58 PM
"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1
"And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." Romans 8:28.
The above 2 verses bring comfort to me that our God is in control and He alone is sovereign.
I was condemned by CC leadership, not worthy even to be told why my name was removed from the voting list and answers to my questions from a deacon was to wait and from other pastors were silence.I had asked God 'why?' and am glad to find I am still His child and I belong to Him.
Since moving to another church, it was at first difficult (Is this why some are still clinging to CC, where Christ is no more there?), not easy, new environment, new friends, new pastors, new prayer-partners,etc. Does CC leadership gave any thought to us?. It is so easy to remove names. Obviously, no,this is why I say Christ is no more in CC. There is no love and care for people and their feelings.Like the Chinese saying "nay sei nay kay si" another words,"you die is your own problem". Thank God that He is still my heavenly Father and Christ is still my Lord.
Yes, God is merciful. Many good things have come out from the whole episode.
I am very much blessed. I know more brothers and sisters from CC from outside of CC than when I was in CC.I find solid spiritual food (which I badly needed)from the church I am attending now.I tasted and still enjoying care and love from the shepherds in this church and cell group.I have more brothers and sisters in Christ.Most of all, I find God's presence in this church, no more praying for money for this and that, no more giving glory to God for fulling our faith promises most of the time,no more feeling God wanted our money only.Now I see more exCalvarites in this present church and we are more bonded and united in Christ than ever before.Best of all, we learn to be more caring not only to one another but also to those whom God bring along to our paths.
Gen.50:20 came alive for me.The hurt is no more.
Fr CT2 @ November 24, 2010 1:20 PM
A CALL TO BE OVERCOMERS!
As I read the recent blogs, my heart is in deep pain that because of a few leaders with dictatorial powers, many are suffering within and outside Calvary Church. If I as an imperfect human can share the pain of those who suffer, HOW MUCH MORE THE LORD TOO MUST SUFFER TO SEE HIS PRECIOUS ONES NOW IN PAIN - Sheep without spiritual leaders!
YET THIS PRESENT SUFFERING IS NECESSARY. HE HAS PERMITTED THE PAIN BECAUSE HE HAS SOME HIGHER PURPOSES WHICH WE CANNOT SEE NOW BUT LATER WE WILL.
Helen Keller said character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved.
Watchman Nee said the breaking of the alabaster box and the anointing of the Lord filled the house with the sweetest odor. Everyone could smell it. Whenever you meet someone who has really suffered; been limited, gone through things for the Lord, willing to be imprisoned by the Lord, just being satisfied with Him and nothing else, immediately you scent the fragrance. There is a savor of the Lord. Something has been crushed, something has been broken, and there is a resulting odor of sweetness.
One day we will witness the true servants of the Lord - sons and daughters of Calvary Church that God has birth through the present suffering. But for now as we await His deliverence, let us continue to become overcomers.
"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith." 1 John 5:4
As a university student in Scotland, I was blessed by Rev. Zac Poonen. It was he who taught me how to overcome during the "dark nights of the soul".
I have put a short video in YouTube entitled Calvary Church: A Call To Be Overcomes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QekL8M_S_Vc&feature=recentu
Let us be overcomes and focus on the Lord. He controls the court and He will fight His battles on HIS TERMS! IS HE NOT THE TRUE JUDGE?
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ November 29, 2010 9:55 PM
A CALL TO BE OVERCOMERS!
As I read the recent blogs, my heart is in deep pain that because of a few leaders with dictatorial powers, many are suffering within and outside Calvary Church. If I as an imperfect human can share the pain of those who suffer, HOW MUCH MORE THE LORD TOO MUST SUFFER TO SEE HIS PRECIOUS ONES NOW IN PAIN - Sheep without spiritual leaders!
YET THIS PRESENT SUFFERING IS NECESSARY. HE HAS PERMITTED THE PAIN BECAUSE HE HAS SOME HIGHER PURPOSES WHICH WE CANNOT SEE NOW BUT LATER WE WILL.
Helen Keller said character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved.
Watchman Nee said the breaking of the alabaster box and the anointing of the Lord filled the house with the sweetest odor. Everyone could smell it. Whenever you meet someone who has really suffered; been limited, gone through things for the Lord, willing to be imprisoned by the Lord, just being satisfied with Him and nothing else, immediately you scent the fragrance. There is a savor of the Lord. Something has been crushed, something has been broken, and there is a resulting odor of sweetness.
One day we will witness the true servants of the Lord - sons and daughters of Calvary Church that God has birth through the present suffering. But for now as we await His deliverence, let us continue to become overcomers.
"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith." 1 John 5:4
As a university student in Scotland, I was blessed by Rev. Zac Poonen. It was he who taught me how to overcome during the "dark nights of the soul".
I have put a short video in YouTube entitled Calvary Church: A Call To Be Overcomes.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QekL8M_S_Vc&feature=recentu
Let us be overcomes and focus on the Lord. He controls the court and He will fight His battles on HIS TERMS! IS HE NOT THE TRUE JUDGE?
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ November 29, 2010 9:55 PM
(1)On 2.12.10 ,the Plaintiffs' application to convert the OS will be filed and submitted as scheduled.
(2)To convert the OS to a Writ, which if successful, will mean an open trial with witnesses from both sides testifying in the High Court!
(3)Let's have both the Plaintiffs and Defendants testify under OATH !
(4)Let's continue to Fast and Pray for Wisdom, Peace and Tranquility to prevail in the High Court tomorrow!
Fr CT2 @ December 1, 2010 10:50 AM
Question to Samuel who ask 'personal' question said...
Just one question to Samuel who said that his question is a personal and emotional one.. ok, do you mean it is personal because of husband and wife membership or rather that "a personal" one as though that you are having personal issues with PG or BOD or church..hmm, I somehow sensed that the Chairman twisted your question and try to avoid confronting your question and he rather twist it to make him appeared 'smart' and 'caring', I felt that he is really very deceptive.
True, this kind of sacking only wife but not husband had caused a lot of conflict! but to me, the church is merely keeping one party in the hope that eventually either party will sympathize with the church and give all especially the money to the church.
Why should you Samuel go see the pastors personally when he sacked your wife? When he never bothered to see you or your wife personally first before sacking? what a fool?
Does it really matters . i was told his wife was reinstated and immediately. do you know why.anyone has the answer>>>>>
December 4, 2010 7:54 PM
THERE WILL BE A NEW CALVARY CHURCH BEFORE JAN 2013!
Fr CT2 @ December 5, 2010 11:42 AM
even the fish in my aquarium do not behave well lately, may be they have a super instint. Christ followers, pls up grade your knowledge and know who our enemies and what their modus operandi...no spiritual warfare if u do not know your enemies well..serve God not Man...
Fr CT2 @ December 6, 2010 11:34 PM
I know many no longer attend Calvary not becos you do not love the Lord. It is becos you can no longer consider PG and team as shepherds. Good shepherds love their sheep, even to the extent to leaving 99 in the sheep-pen to look for the 1 missing. PG and group did none of this but instead exercise cruelty to write-off 400 at one go, not forgetting more as many were axed much earlier!!!
Recently SKum appealed to members to fulfil their faith promise promising all the money collected for missions will go to missions - their missions offering dwindled.
Bravo TTG - most calvarites no longer give blindly - after all PG preached that money is not important to him? Then what is?
My toes are laughing!!!
Fr CT2 @ December 7, 2010 7:33 PM
Worshipper for 25 years says....
On 2-12-2010,the Plaintiffs informed the Court that they will apply to convert the Originating Summons into a Writ after the
" Court of Appeal" order is available. Hence ,the Case is again fixed for further re-mention on 6.1.11.
I am looking forward to hear the defendants ( PGs and Die-hard supporters) testify in their " TRUTHFUL Oral pleadings " under OATH in open court !
Let's continue to Fast and Pray for the Plaintiffs to exercise Wisdom in this open Trial !
Fr CT2 @ December 8, 2010 10:16 AM
I notice that this page has sort of quieten down. Recently I met a Calvarite and asked her what is the latest development. She told me that everything has been resolved, no problems now and the church is doing well, all forgiven. Is this right?
Replying to Anonymous Dec 13, 2010 9:44 pm
As far as we know, nothing has been resolved and the legal action by the 7 Plaintiffs against PG & the Deacons is still on going.
Attendance at Calvary Church services continues to drop and the funds they hope to raise are not coming in as much as they had expected.
As in previous years, the Administrators of CT has decided to maintain the Christmas spirit of Love, Peace and Joy during this time of the year.
We take this opportunity to wish EVERYONE a very BLESSED CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR.
GOD IS WORKING BEHIND THE SCENE!
Dear Anonymous (December 13, 2010 9:44 PM)
Neither CT nor others whom the Lord has given a burden to intercede for Calvary Church have “quietened” down.
As you are aware, I have no direct link with CT, other than that I share their burden and in my spirit the Lord has not spoken that the burden has been lifted. So although it may appear quite, I rest assure the Lord is fighting behind the scene.
The theme of God working behind the scenes pervades the Bible. And certain passages proclaim this theme in a particularly helpful way.
1. In Judges 7:9-15 the warrior Gideon, about to face the troops of Midian with a much smaller and less-equipped force, is terribly frightened and doubtful of success. But on the night before the battle God leads him to spy on the enemy camp, giving him a unique window on God's hidden activity. Gideon hears one soldier telling another of a dream he has had of Gideon's army defeating the Midianites. He discovers that God is already waging the battle--giving the enemy a faint heart so they will be an easy match for Israel.
Gideon's experience is good to keep in mind when we feel hesitant to take a step of faith. It reminds us that God is remarkably capable to change hearts and rearrange circumstances when he wants us to succeed.
2. Consider, too, the experience of the widow of Shunem in 2 Kings 8:1-6. Elisha counsels this woman, whose son he had restored to life, to leave Shunem for seven years in order to avoid a famine. She obeys, and then returns after this period to petition the king for her land. At the very moment she arrives to meet with the king, Elisha's servant Gehazi is talking with him, telling him about the prophet's activities. Seeing the woman and her son, Gehazi presents them to the king as a testimony to Elisha's ministry. Then the king, obviously impressed, "appointed an official for her, saying 'Restore all that was hers, together with all the produce of the fields from the day that she left the land until now.'"
The passage demonstrates the value of sticking with the commitment we've made and not trying to take unreasonable shortcuts toward our goal. If the widow had returned early to Shunem out of concern for preserving her property, she might have defeated her own purpose.
3. Then there is the more mysterious incident in 2 Kings 6:15-18, where God opens the eyes of Elisha's servant to see the vast angelic army in chariots of fire ready to fight for them against Aram. It shows how God's spiritual forces working behind the scenes to accomplish his purposes vastly exceed our comprehension or ability to imagine.
4. Finally, at this time of year especially, we should consider what the Christmas story suggests about God's behind-the-scenes activity in human life. When Jesus was born, few realized that God was acting in a way which would forever alter the course of human history and the destiny of innumerable lives.
Of late the Lord has spoken that Christians (Hosea 4:6 & Isaiah 5:13)perish because of lack of knowledge. I am in the process of putting together a series of videos on the subject Church Governance. Part one is entitled: Extravagance & Financial Mismanagement in the Name of Ministry. You may view Part 1 at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytyjaD8LDCQ.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ December 14, 2010 8:32 AM
I do not believe PG or any of his blinded followers will take the oath in open Court.These days the church is a strange place.When I was considered for an eldership in an AOG church- I was asked to sign a document committing to an oath of secrecy.(This was not the first church that had required this sort of this from me) After consulting with my wife and children- I declined. We also decided to move to another church- a God fearing church.It was only then that I realized that churches have many hanky-panky going on these days. What a disgrace!!!! Christians are exhorted to walk in the light.I thought only criminals had things to hide. But a church?? Syaitan Iblis sudah masuk gereja dari pintu belakang!!!Lari cepat!!! Jangan Ikut Gereja Syaitan. Born Again.
Fr CT2 @ December 14, 2010 12:14 PM
What is the Penalty for lying in open court? Let observe how PG's secular lawyer will guide them to tell the " Truths " ! I will be in attendance for watching briefs !
Fr CT2 @ December 15, 2010 8:53 AM
I had a good laugh when I read Born Again dated 14.12.2010 about taking Oaths!! I want to share an experience- this thing called Home Schooling operated by churches.My son was enrolled in one of those programmes.I withdrew my son after 2 weeks for the following reasons. None of the staff were competent to teach-they only had a heavy Christian " Jesus and Hallelujah" emphasis.My family and I are Malaysians and we were born and in all probability will die here.Can our children survive in this land by only fellowshipping with Christians, singing Christian songs and practically living within the confines of a church building??? I called up the Education Ministry in Putrajaya making some enquiries about the Christian programmes in our church. I do not wish to write here everything the officer said.In fact I was scolded " Engkau ini bodoh betul!!!! Article 152 Federal Constitution -menentukan bahawa Bahasa Malaysia adalah bahasa kebangsaan Malaysia- gereja kamu gunakan bahasa apa untuk ajaran sekolah?? Tak faham FC kah??? -- bodoh!!!
So- is the homeschooling recognised by the Education ministry or is it just another money making scam operated by a Pastor under the disguise of a church front?? Anonymous is right- Syaitan sudah masuk gereja---lari cepat!!! Family Man.
Fr CT2 @ December 15, 2010 2:08 PM
Response to Discerning dated
7-12-2010
Point 1
If the Pastor behaves like Royalty- you really can't fault him- it is CC people who put him up on a Royal Pedestal.Someone has once said that a church deserves the Pastor it gets.Did you realize,CC has never invited any of the local AOG ministers to preach- until lately- when it got into trouble??The fact is,the local Ministers were beneath his dignity and could not match up to his eloquent bullshit.Even a deeply God fearing man like Rev. Arthur Yoong was never considered for the CC pulpit. It's only when the trouble started that the local AOG ministers were called in- and God used the situation to expose quite a bit!! I saw the CC meeting when the AOG minister asked for endless clarification when anything was challenged or even asked. Even a moron would have understood the questions. But this BCM trained Minister successfully avoided the landmines by his skill.To me,he was just there to cover to help SP to cover up the fraud.It really is unbelievable.Whenever me and my colleagues discuss this,we were agreed on this- either the AOG minister was downright stupid or a demoniac hiding behind a "Reverend" title.!( probably backslidden in his own private sins)
Point 2
CC brethren- you are partly to blame!Yes, I have to blame you!!I am angry- very angry!! The Constitution is a public document available for inspection for members. A careful reading would have revealed that the power was slowly beginning to centralize on only 1 person.Didn't you all realize this?? And you all just sat there passively letting yourself being fleeced. It was only when the demon appeared with his mega plans for a super-church, with a Mormon architect-(all architects know that there are kickbacks for those who refer business to us.It was probably chanelled to a proxy account.Please don't tell us that Pastors incapable of doing it.)You would have a heart attack if you knew of our business dealings with church leaders.
Point 3.
In my opinion, this battle can be won not just by prayer- but by skilled expert advice from matured believers.(Bamboo Conspiracy-A Big thanks from those of us who were hushed away just like that).If you can just hold the ground without being moved by his eloquent bullshit again-(TOTT will work) we will begin to see some victory. Why should you leave when the fault is not with you?? Is it his own church?? He died for it??
Point No 4.
Are they are servants of Christ?? I am a better one.....in labours , imprisonments, fastings, hunger and naked...Apostle ( 2 Corinthians)
Do you see SP going through all this?? Its plain to to me that he has become a worldly preacher and has taken the place of a false apostle. Read all about it- its all there.He had become like King Saul and Judas- both started well......you know the story.
God bless you all as the year closes. "Live and Learn!!" Saudara Mara>> Don't let one wolf ruin your life!!!!
December 17, 2010 4:31 PM
DO YOU KNOW?
It was said during the membership meeting, Patrick Wong ( PG's appointed Elder!) stipulated if you want to maintain VM status, you have to attend prayer meetings.
Presumably,yet, another PG's decree:(
Neither PG, PW or the BOD has the right to impose this Ruling re VM status--it's absolutely unconstitutional. To those who are there and still do not know what the Constitution says Membership Rules, Please go read it.
It's just getting utterly LAWLESSNESS in CC.
(Remember, PG said No corrections for WRONG and INACCURATE Minutes, are necessary!!!)
How could the Secretary, Bernedett Foo live with her conscience, I wondered.
Fr CT2 @ December 21, 2010 12:20 AM
Dont fret over it. They can have the VM membership back. I remember PG always say that CC is not a club. But I am beginning to feel that it is a club. PG's club. But I think the outside clubs are more reasonable. I have been a member for more than 30 years and I am one of the 400 wonderful members. I am now happily worshipping in another church where I didnt not know it existed or was given the impression that CC is the only 'true' church.
Fr CT2 @ December 21, 2010 10:33 AM
to most of us: Let him who has not sinned be the first to throw the stone.
to PG: God knows your heart. If you are true to Him; and you, being the shepherd of His flock, His judgement on you will be MUCH greater. If you are truly working in truth and honesty, then no worries, but if indeed you are guilty, God will have His way with you.
just pray that those hypocrites would have many many sleepless nites, is a torture man cannot endure long, a wake up call ...
much have been said but things still going in that guy's ways, what should we do bro n sis?
expose the culprit openly?
all those under him be paid rm 1000 a month as salary regardless of position, any thing more will go to ccc, see how long they can support him, they support him becoz they get good pay,
don't run a church like governing a country...
wisdom of man not needed but the holy spirit...blessed christmas to all...
Fr CT2 @ December 28, 2010 9:24 PM
As 2010 closes down and 2011 arrives, may all the worse be left behind and all the new be brought foward.I pray the new year causes amnesia of the old memories and brings new and edifying relationships.May you be blessed. You are much loved.
From us- the silent observers.
Fr CT2 @ December 31, 2010 2:22 PM
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