Wednesday, June 2, 2010

What Some Pastors Are Saying...

“They should not have taken the case to court.
They have not exhausted all avenues!!!”

It has come to our attention that some AOG pastors are saying that the TTG is wrong in going to the Court as they have not exhausted all avenues available to them. The “available avenue” that these pastors said the TTG should have taken was to have requisitioned for an EGM and then put in the Resolutions for the members to vote on. As the TTG did not do this “necessary available” step, they felt that it was wrong for the TTG to go to court.

There could only be several reasons why these pastors said what they said. One reason could be that they have not read or chosen not to read this blog and therefore, are still totally ignorant of what has taken place in Calvary Church (CC) or all the actions which the TTG group has taken to resolve the issues amicably. Another reason could be that they are just mimicking the justification response of the AOG Executive Committee (Exco) members since it has now been highlighted that the CC Constitution DOES NOT comply with the AOG Constitution.

Calvary Church’s existence is derived from the Trustees (Incorporation) Ordinance 1952 under which the AOG Malaysia was set up. In other words, Calvary Church exists under the umbrella of the AOG Malaysia. Calvary Church is technically a sub-trustee of AOG Malaysia. Any offence of breach of trust within Calvary Church or by its leaders, if charged by the authorities, may have serious material impact on the continued existence of AOG itself.

Since it is now obvious that the CC constitution is not in compliance, besides been seriously flawed, to the requirements as spelt out in the AOG Constitution, the present Exco is in a fix on how to explain or justify why the CC Constitution was approved by their predecessors back then. However, due consideration must be given to the fact that the CC Constitution was approved by the then Exco when Pastor Prince Guneratnam (PG) was its General Superintendent (GS). With PG sitting in the Exco as the GS, who in the Exco then, would be courageous enough to question or not approve PG’s Church Constitution?

Coming back to these pastors, they feel that the TTG should have exhausted the “available” step before going to Court. Do they really understand or know what this “available” step is? Do they know exactly what the requirements are in order for the TTG to requisite for an EGM? We will try to explain the requirements in simple terms.

Firstly, we must understand that there are only two Meetings in which the Church Members can vote on Resolutions.

1. Annual General Meeting (AGM). This can only be called for by the Board of Deacons.

2. Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM). This can be called for by the BOD or by Voting Members by way of a “requisition”.

Now this is the “available avenue” that the pastors are saying that the TTG should have taken. Convene an EGM by way of requisition.

Secondly, we need to understand what CC Constitution states with regards to convening an AGM and EGM.

1, Rule IX (1). states that, "the quorum for a General Meeting is ¼ of the total Voting Members." This means, if the Church has 880 members, there should be 220 members in attendance before the Meeting can proceed.

2. Rule IX (2). states that, “If within half an hour from the time appointed for a General Meeting a quorum is not present at the said meeting, the voting members so present shall by a two thirds majority vote resolve that all Voting members so present shall duly constitute a proper quorum for such a general meeting…”

This simply means that if a General Meeting is convened (called for) by the BOD and after half an hour only one Voting Member turns up, that one member can vote to proceed and the Meeting can actually proceed technically with just one Voting member present, as allowed by the CC Constitution now.

3. Rule IX (7) states that members may requisite for an EGM with signatures from ¼ of the voting members. This means, if the Church has 880 members, we would need 220 signatures before we can requisite for an EGM.

Assuming 220 signatures have been obtained, 3 things can happen depending on the Board of Deacons (BOD) decision.

1. The BOD on receiving the requisition can convene (call for) the EGM within 30 days. If the BOD convenes (calls for) the EGM, the quorum is ¼ of the Voting Members as required in Rule IX 1.

2. The BOD can also refuse to convene (call for) the Meeting.

3. In such case, the requisitioning members can convene the Meeting as provided by Rule IX (7b). It sounds very nice and democratic but Rule IX (7b) imposes an unfair condition on the requisitionists (the 220 signatories). The rule says, “In such an event and notwithstanding Rule IX (1) & Rule IX (2), the total number of VM present to form a quorum shall not be less than one-half of the existing voting membership.”

This means that, if the church has 880 VM, there must be 440 VM present to form a quorum to convene the EGM.

What does this mean in simple terms?

1. When BOD calls for a General Meeting, only 220 VMs need to be present. However, they have an escape clause to carry on the meeting even if less than 220 VM turn up. Technically, even if one VM turns up, the BOD can convene the Meeting.

2. However, the requisitionists or the 220 signatories will need 440 VM present before the EGM can proceed. There is no escape clause provided.

How can the AOG Exco approve such unfair and biased provisions in a Church Constitution?

It has an apparent form of democracy and fairness but it is really a camouflage. The Constitution does provide for the rights of members to requisite for an EGM but the same Constitution also makes it almost impossible for the members to do so. The members are made to feel happy at first glance but will be made to face a mountain when exercised.

This is all part of the great deception. Make the members believe that they enjoy democratic rights and responsibilities of a Congregational Church but in reality, it is a Dictatorial Structured Church disguised as a Democratic Structured Church.

Does the present EXCO members and pastors really think that TTG would have been successful in trying to requisite for an EGM as the “available avenue” to propose any Resolutions with PG and the present BOD in control?

Let us do a flashback.

The TTG submitted 7 Resolutions for tabling at the August 2008 EGM. As it happened, the BOD threw out the resolutions. The reasons given were two fold:

1. The first reason given by the Church Secretary was that the explanations from the lawyer and forensic accountants would address the issues. What a ridiculous answer! What has the explanations from the lawyer and accountant to do with the tabling of resolutions?

2. Perhaps recognising that the reason given sounded ridiculous, she then said that since no Preliminary Notice of meeting was given for the said EGM, the BOD would not entertain any resolution.

Since Rule IX (5) states, “within 7 clear days after preliminary notice is given…”, the TTG accepted her interpretation of the Constitution at that time and waited for the AGM instead. This was the TTG’s FIRST ATTEMPT to submit Resolutions for tabling.

Then at the 2009 AGM, the TTG made a SECOND ATTEMPT and submitted the same Resolutions based on Rule IX (5) which states,

RESOLUTION


a) No matter or resolution shall be brought forward at any GM unless written submissions has or have been received by the Secretary of the Board of Deacons within 7 clear days after preliminary notice is given of such meeting or meetings.


b) Subject to para (5a) of this Rule, any matter or resolution, notice of which has been received, shall if received in sufficient time before such meeting, be included in the notice convening the meeting.

Even this time when the TTG submitted their resolutions in absolute compliance with the requirements stated, the resolutions were “thrown out”. The reason given was it was unconstitutional. What does ”unconstitutional” means, up till today no one can explain it properly. The best “award winning” explanation given at this 2009 AGM was that tabling the members’ resolutions were likened to tabling the purchase of Manchester United in a church AGM. This analogy was actually suggested by a young lawyer who was voted in as Deacon at that AGM. This ridiculous analogy was actually accepted by the Resolution Chairman, Pastor Ronnie Chin who is also the Assistant General Superintendent of AOG today. Is this the quality or integrity of our Christian leaders today?

Once bitten, twice shy. After the bitter experience at the 2009 AGM, no one in the right frame of mind would attempt to propose any Resolutions based on the current flawed Constitution. Please listen to the recordings of the 2009 AGM to feel the heartache and intimidation members were subjected to.

Please listen to CLIP 6.
Click here to listen : 2009 AGM

Anyway, this is water under the bridge. With the mastery stroke of a pen, PG has recently axed more than 400 suspected TTG supporters (with many innocent members included as well) from Voting and Associate membership. This despicable act of dictatorship has effectively stopped all possibilities of any requisition for an EGM by any remaining TTG supporters or concerned members.

So have the TTG exhausted all avenues?

The TTG/Concerned Members have exercised great patience and tolerance in trying to engage the BOD to be fair to all the members of the church. The pastors who make comments such as these,

They should not have taken the case to court.
They have not exhausted all avenues!!!”

have very little or have not understood the camouflage and deception that are embedded in the CC constitution.

Can we fault the pastors?

The camouflage and deceptions in the CC Constitution are very difficult to detect by mere reading. The true spirit of the CC Constitution can only be seen and felt when it is exercised or put to a test like what is happening now….the ongoing CCC, short for Calvary Church Crisis.

18 comments:

yoong said...

yoong said... May 31, 2010 8:40 AM in BC.

what is happening in cc in happening to other churches, the kelang valley churches are competing for a very smnall market share of the cake..new bulidng, new equipments, new vans, new library are just the tip of the ice berg.there are some collecting for investments in properties.
its real disgusting ..money talk god is just an instrument !
for c c, the big sp is still stylo milo !
generally c c members are still courteous doesnt mean we are dumb fooled and brainless.

turn off the tap on the power!

as i have already complied a class action and few of us are in the midst to file at the court.

this is only phrase 1.

This is a good development said...

I think it is a good thing that AOG pastors are making public statements. This shows the matter is no longer a CC "in house" matter. It shows that more and more people are asking questions.
The CC crisis cannot be covered up anymore and swept under the carpet.

The truth will always prevail. It is only a matter of time.

Bamboo Conspiracy said...

TTG BE SINGLE MINDED AND LET NO MAN MUZZLE YOU!

I have my own share of pastors and Christian leaders trying to muzzle my voice. Enough of these Job's advisors and well meaning pastors who may not fully understand the issue. We love them but we need to speak truth with love. (I would have expected them to come to your aid at the beginning and not only now show concern.)

TTG - STAND FOR THE COURSE YOU ARE FIGHTING FOR & LET NO HUMAN WHO HAS NO FULL KNOWLEDGE OF YOUR COURSE MUZZLE YOU.

I have learned that if one has prayed, taken counsel with other Christians of like mind and decided on a certain course of action BY FAITH, then one must stand by that decision made in FAITH. Otherwise that person is of double mind and fallen into satan's cunning devices. (See James 1:8). BE SINGLE MINDED AND YOU WILL SEE HIS LIGHT (Matthew 6:22)

You must trust God and believe that if God wanted you to take another course of action, that is, not to involve the press or go to court, He would have made it clear to members within the TTG. He did not and you must leave the consequences of the action in His hand.

I too sort God when TTG informed they are going to the press and even to court as I had some reservations at the beginning.

I interceded and sort His will. After interceding, I determined that this was within His will and had His peace. Otherwise, I would not have stood with you in the matter.

My friend, God is calling us to take a higher and tough stand against those who oppose His will. We have been falsely taught to "turn the other cheek" when in fact the Lord wants us to stand and declare victory over the works of satan!.

We need to be like Elijah and Elisha who brought fire upon God's enemies! Remember God's LOVE is BOTH JUST AND MERCY. Otherwise, He is not God. The trouble is we have a skewed understanding of God's love and get sentimental when in fact He wants us to "Chase out the money changers from His temple!"

Don't dig up what you have planted by faith. Listen to what these pastors have to say but stand your ground. We are the vine and He the brunch and we must trust that He would have made it clear to us if He wanted us to take another course of action.

I draw you to a message given by Oswald Chambers - "Have I To Forgive My Enemies?" I don't have time to go into details but to the fact that no where in the Bible does God teach we are to forgive another who has not repented and made restitution for his sin! Even God's salvation is conditional upon those who put their faith in Christ. It is freely given but there need to be repentance and a turning away from the old ways.

Christ did not come to the Pharisees, who withstood Him, who said He was possessed by the devil and say " I FORGIVE YOU". No - He said "HOW CAN YE ESCAPE THE DAMNATION OF HELL.


Christ said "Love your enemies ..." but He also said "... neither will your Father forgive your trespasses without repentance" (Page 505 to 507 - The Complete Works of Oswald Chambers.)

FAITH IS TRUSTING GOD WHEN WE CANNOT SEE. FAITH IS BELIEVING GOD WHEN EVENTS SEEM TO CONTRADICT WHAT WE HAVE SOWN IN FAITH.

I TRULY BELIEVE THAT THE LORD WANTS TO SHAKE THE VERY FOUNDATION OF NATIONAL CHRISTIAN ORGANISATIONS SO THAT HE MAY RESTORE HIS CHOSEN CHRISTIAN SERVANT LEADERS WHO STAND FOR TTG AND NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK TRUTH IN LOVE.

Vijay

Anonymous said...

This may interest our readers in which PG was one the speakers...

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_533481.html

Food for thot...

yoong said...

in any organisation or even the church, there is a business model or some called it standard operating procedures etc.. this are check and balance in eensuring the organisations has it objectives and action plan.funds cash are most sensitive subjects, to some it taboo even to question..in the name of god and giving to god..there self professed leaders uses it at their own discreation.more so with friendly deacons and staff. in c c case, many of the pastors are on payroll...most depend on the size of collections and the bigger the congreations the more be collected. there are other income such as love offering, attending weding funerals, child bapitism, house warming..etc in the chinese culture, an ang pow is a must , a token .
sp and gang been feasting too long on the grace and kindness (ignorance) ..they become absolute power and absolute power corrupt absolutely.
from many fiasco, these has surfaced and members and donors are asking Now!
leave other churches to their own members..right now!
sp and pastors deacons must be hauled up in a members inquiry and face to face!
perhaps members can write to me to complied for a petition !

this is phrase 2.

Be focused said...

Bro Vijay,

Thanks for your encouraging words to the TTG warriors. Yes, you're definitely right that the TTG core members must be focus and not waiver just because of what some "pastors" said.

To you TTG core members, you must also take heed that there are false prophets and teachers in our midst. Like Bro Vijay have said many times, there should be no rogue leaders in our churches.

Keep up the great work my bros & sis in fighting for TTG, not only in CC, but also in the Malaysian churches in general.

May our Lord continues to strengthen and comfort all of you in this battle for His Kingdom. May His blood of protection cover all of you and your loved ones from any harm or danger, and the Holy Spirit gives you the discernment and guides your path.

Shalom.

Anonymous said...

Singapore Police acted VERY FAST to seize documents and secure evidences, upon receiving complaints through Police Reports!.." Charities and the Commercial Affairs Department said they were investigating 'several individuals and companies, related or connected' to the church. The four-paragraph statement said the Commissioner 'had received complaints of misuse of church funds'. It looked into the matter and decided that the police should get into the picture."

In contrast, the Malaysian Commercial Crime Division seemed to be VERY SLOW to respond to the POLICE REPORT lodged by CC members in early 2009 ? Any follow-ups done to ask why SO LATE and SLOW ? Or is AG just sitting on the IP & procrastinating its next course of action? Is it BAD OMEN to investigate a HOLY MAN who is also a Tan Sri ?

Anonymous said...

Do " THESE some AOG pastors " they themselves practised - Truth, Transparency, Good Governance, Stewardship and Accountability - within their OWN Churches ??

My habitual spiritual question whenever I met my friends yesterday and today is to ASK whether their Churches PRACTISED - Truth, Transparency, Good Governance, Stewardship and Accountability - !

Many are not sure as they " dare not ask " and also " forgot " to seek answers " from their own Board of Deacons and Pastors ?

yoong said...

the aog malaysia , most of them orginated from bible inst of malaysia (old names) it more like i rub yr back you rub mine. when the c c fiaso surfaced , with these aog board should this be confronted many dirt will come out not just within c c. if one care attentively enough scan through the who who s in the aog..dont be alarmed 70 to 80 % are lead by pa and mum(husband and wife team)..and many of these churches dont opened up their accounts...and the usual sp standard operating answer: trust god , trsut us , we are the appointed sheperd( or executor).

religions is a mega billion dollars buisness ..all needed if promises, implanting fear and sell hopes!

fellow members , christians. at c c , is the 1st pandora boxes.

we must be intelligent steadfast and debate even on the sermons.have any pastors after a sermon opened up for questions and answers?

they can copy from internet and improverished ...and act as though they were spoken by the holy spirit and claimed that authority.

when sp and his self egoised c c visions..was it feasible economically? after all, we are his cash crashed cows...?

this is the time we should examined ourselves...every sundays..if one is alert..and listen...do u noticed these sp and pastors blar blar more bible verses then the real meat(content)?
would sp and his pastors deacons dare face to face ?

on our money ?

i am willing to debate dialogue sp . any volunteers?

we will call for this in a petition

!

Malaysian pastor now serving overseas said...

Take a look at this link ...

http://www.malaysia-today.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=32255:rich-religions-pose-new-woes&catid=21:special-reports&Itemid=100135

I am not passing judgement on anybody but these are the dangers of inherent to mega churches, huge building projects and their senior pastors.

God have mercy!

Anonymous said...

I heard there is some announcement on CCC on last Friday's night prayer meeting. Any update ?

Anonymous said...

So,why are the AOG Pastors only talkin now? They have been silent all along so they should maintain their silence now.Why raise your voice now? About Metro's fire episode, and "Gods act of kindness" Hindus said the same thing when their temples were broken down in Klang. Now they got a bigger and better place for their temples.I guess they could give the same testimony too.The truth is Metro benefitted financially from the fiasco and that may explain why some churches are just being plain provocative.(the latest being the Allah issue)

All credit goes only to Dr. Lum. God bless that man for having the courage to stand up against the deception.And he walked according to scripture. He went directly to SP but was instead shown the door.SP and his hirelings must surely account for this.Pastors must realize that their days lording over the Gods congregation is over.

Bro. Vijay

shrinking and still shrinking said...

Due to the dwindling number of worshippers at the services in CC, they closed the back portion (the Chinese section at the 8am and 5pm services many months ago. Even then, one can see plenty of empty seats.

It came as a shock today when the Chinese Section was closed at the 10:30am service. Yet one can still see empty seats scattered in the sanctuary. When the service was underway, this section was opened. What a pathetic sight! It was dark and gloomy. When the lights came on, there were only a handful seated in only two or three rows. Yes, a visitor will be impressed by the near full-occupancy of the sanctuary. But it becomes pathetic when one sees a whole empty section at the back.

Another tell-tale sign is that the ushers today will stand in the aisle and able to count the number of people in the sanctuary. Previously the usher had to use a hand-held counter instrument.


The church is still shrinking and yet the recalcitrant senior pastor chopped 400 members before the AGM. Instead of having a growing church, the arrogant pastor and his henchmen is making the church shrink. Is this a fountainhead church which some AP's are still saying? Is this a mega church? You answer this.

BTW, SP and Rev Kong Hee are members of David Yonggi's Church Growth Conference. City Harvest Church under Rev King Hee had organised the 2010 Church Growth Conference which was recently concluded. PG was one of the guest speakers. How come there was no mention of this conference in CC?
I remember CC was encouraging members to attend the Conference in Seoul, Korea and Jarkata. Why?
Because PG with all his outward confidence, has a fear deep inside him. He does not want Calvarites to mingle with members from other churches in the region. Somehow when members from different churches mingle together the saga in CC will surface and much more people will come to know.

Anonymous said...

The senior pastor and 16 members of CHC are under investigation for misuse of the church's fund. Not only that, there was also a controversy on Kong Hee's handling of his pop singer wife's career in church. Though this has been settled amicably.

Then there is a problem with a mega church in Australia. If one surf the net, there is plenty of controversies all over (America the so-called Superpower has many fallen well-known pastors). Now the Pope, too, has his hands full regarding abuses in his denomination.

What is happening? Has Christians become less spiritual? No! They have now begin to speak out. They do not seat docilely in the pews and swallow everything that the man at the pulpit dish out any more. Today they want and demand that the church and it's leaders show and practice accountability, truth, transparency and good governance.

Many pastors are still living in dreams of the past glory. They still expect the congregation to swallow and accept all that they want a member to do whether spiritual or financial. When it comes to money, it is the members' money. And say what you like, the church is 100% dependent on what it can collect!

yoong said...

AS SINGAPORE was waking up one recent morning, investigators were swooping on the homes of a senior pastor and 16 others related to a charismatic church.

The commercial crime officers searched the office of the controversial City Harvest Church (CHC) and carted away a large amount of financial records and computers.

The 17, including 45-year-old Senior Pastor Kong Lee, were taken away for questioning as part of a government investigation into complaints of misuse of church funds.

It is one of the biggest investigations of a religious institution here in recent years. No one, however, has been arrested.

CHC is the latest of a series of controversies involving high-profile leaders of religious or charity bodies in Singapore.
meanwhile in malaysia another prominent pastor is facing legal suit. a 150 mil mega church was put to stand still when a public listed company was suspended .
with all intent and purposes, members should stand up and DEMAND ANSWERS.

yoong said...

SEEMed TO ME, more like i endorsed u , u endored me..that another brainwashing. memebers of c c , friends of c c , turn off the tap! write yr questions, demand for answers why happened to your hard earned MONEY!
PLS SEND ME YR COPY ! WE WILL COMPLIED AND MAKE A PUBLIC PETITION..CALLED FOR A MEETING !

Anonymous said...

For once, JUST ASK ourselves whether we have ever ask our own pastors, deacons, elders, Reverends,etc, whether our Own Churches " Showed and PRACTISED Accountability, Truth,
Transparency, Good Stewardship and and Good Governance" !

Most of us just assumed these POSITIVE Attributes were PRACTISED in a HOLY Manner as expected of them as a body of Christ? And I was wronged from the very beginning when I walked into the Church as a visitor ! These attributes were not even spelled out in the Church Constitution to begin with !

How many of us actually do read the Church Constitution ? or was a written Copy of the Church Constitution ever given to us?
Just told to fulfill the - Full attendance of My Faith class or any other equivalent CLASSES - to apply for CHURCH membership?

The good Attributes " to Practice Accountability, Truth,
Transparency, Good Stewardship and and Good Governance" were never shared and explained to us ? So these Positive Attributes are not MANDATORY ?

genesispassion said...

ref to yoong

this is one biggest religious scums in malaysia boleh land..was watching george carlin at you tube..religions is bullshit! seemed very true at sp and his deacons digging money from us ..i am for this petition.

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