All that was explained to the members was that there were no impropriety in the CIM accounts. Any auditor will also arrive at that finding because CIM is a personal ministry of PG. A personal ministry is exactly that - personal. All entrepreneurs or sole proprietors of businesses can also tell you that their auditors will not question their personal usage of funds because the business belongs to them personally. It is their tax agent who takes the audited accounts and re-compute the figures for tax submission purposes. In this process, personal expenses are excluded from the accounts because non-business related expenses are not tax deductible. This aspect, however, will not be seen in the case of CIM as it proclaims to be non-profit or religious in nature and therefore, not subject to tax. (The recent de-registration of CIM as a member of NECF may have implications on its tax-free status).
So what Ferrier Hodgson said is not surprising. There can not be anything improper in the accounts of CIM in the eyes of an auditor because it is a personal ministry account. When the four members saw the CIM accounts on 21 June 2008 (read the 5th Update posted in this blog), their main concern was on the unauthorized transfer of funds from our Church Missions Fund to CIM and CARED. Their concern arose from the fact that this was a situation of a conflict of interest because PG is the Senior Pastor of the Church, the Head of the Missions Committee, the Chairman of the Board of Deacons and the Founder, Permanent Director and President of CIM and CARED. To top it all, none of the transfer of funds over the years was made known to the members of the Church, much less, approved by them, which should be the case in view of the amounts involved and the conflict of interest.
But was Ferrier Hodgson given the material facts and asked to check on the fund transfers and the Church/Missions accounts? No one knows what was the scope given to the said auditors. Auditors can only audit and give an opinion based on the scope given to them. From the clarifications by Ferrier Hodgson at the EGM, it would appear that they have been commissioned to just conduct an audit into CIM. Although no fault of theirs, are they not barking at the wrong tree?
To recap, below is the summary of accounts of CIM/CARED:-
It is to be noted that subsequently, after the EGM, CARED together with the balance cash was transferred back to the Church as an extended ministry. In late November 2008, PG announced that the balance cash in CIM will also be returned (he used a softer word "released" in some services) to the Church. This event took place soon after CIM was de-registered from the membership roll of NECF. We believe the bank, where CIM's account was kept and which got wind of the status of CIM, had some influence on the sudden change of heart by PG not to hold on to the funds, which he was adamant about keeping, all the while. (Read the post on 4 December 2008).
Now why is this CIM matter being brought out again?
After the EGM, Sister Liza, on 29 August 2008, wrote to the deacons for a copy of Ferrier Hodgson’s report. The deacons promptly rejected her request. Another Calvarite (Joe) wrote in to see the report and was asked to refer to the Missions Director. We cannot comment if that member got to see the report or was it followed through.
Disappointed, Sister Liza together with Bro KC and Bro Francis, engaged a legal firm of another Calvarite to officially request for a copy of the auditor’s report as well as the lawyer, KK Wong’s report on 6 November 2008.
The deacons replied on 13 November 2008 that “the CIM Board has consented to allow CIM information contained in the Reports to be viewed by Calvary Church members” and that the 3 members can make arrangements to view the Reports at Calvary Church’s premises. The letter went on to say that the Reports are highly confidential and before the 3 members can view the Reports, they “shall provide a written undertaking to the BOD that your clients (the 3 members) shall not disclose the Reports to any third party or the public”. The deacons did not clarify if “any third party” includes fellow church members.
We wonder who paid the auditors' fees - CIM or Calvary Church? If Calvary Church had paid for the auditor’s report and KK Wong has waived his fees for his report, should not all members be given free access to both reports? In fact, should not the reports be printed and given to the members as only summaries of the reports were verbally given to the members at the EGM?
For the record, the 3 members has not gotten to view the reports as they were not agreeable to sign the undertaking to keep quiet. They do not wish to be a party to hiding facts or the real truth of the matter, if indeed there were areas of concern in the reports.
The question that still bugs us is, why there is a need for any member to sign a “gag” undertaking, before being allowed to view the reports? Why can’t PG and the deacons be transparent?
WHAT IS THERE TO HIDE??
102 comments:
truly suspicious, the way PG and BOD does things...you are right, TTG..if PG has NOTHING to hide, why is he so secretive?? Why can't the BOD reveal the auditor report for ALL members to see since the verdict of the audit was that there was no impropriety in the CIM accounts?? The more they try to cover up, the more dirt will be uncovered...
CT..if the 2 copycat blogs starts copying your articles and posting them in their blogs without permission, you should sue them for copyright infringement...
So only about RM120k was collected from other sources. Still the big bulk of money came from church funds. So SP already finish spent the 120k on flying around. I,m sure his supporters expected him to use the money not put in FD right?
I was one of the last persons during EGM to ask my 2 questions. To recap, one of the questions I asked was:
'Since Pastor Guneratnam is the head of the missions committee and also the Director of CIM, is it not a conflict of interest (in the sense as head of missions committee he has the liberty to transfer funds to CIM without any need to get approval from any others)? The Chairman did not answer but asked "who will answer that question". Pastor Guneratnam stood up and blandly said it is not a conflict of interest!!!
I am glad TTG brought it up it could be a conflict of interest though Pastor Guneratnam said it was not so during EGM.
Is it possible then the BOD come up some answers to us instead of Calvarites have to guess what is happening?
JL
Truthfulness, transperancy and honesty...that is what we ask of our pastors and BOD.
Is that asking too much of our church leaders? Aren't these the very qualities that Jesus our Lord requires of all His followers and especially of those whom He has entrusted to care for His sheep?
We concerned members asked so many times pastors and BOD:
1."What is there to hide if you are stand for the truth?"
2."What is there so secretive about church affairs if you were doing right and have been following the ways and commands of God in running church afairs?"
3."What is there to hide?"
We do not understand and some more you (pastors and BOD) need to conduct EGM in such high and mighty manner. Further you appointed criminal lawyers and auditors to try to absolve yourselves and justify matters before the members and worshippers.
We are so very disappointed with our pastors and BOD.
Dear Lord Jesus,
Come and look down with mercy and compassion upon Your children... we just want truth, honesty and righteousness to be restored in Calvary Church.
In Jesus' Mighty name we pray..
AMEN
What have we got here? A pentesconstal church body or some profligate organisation. Everything has to be open and transparent for scrutiny and for all members of the Church to read and understand. Resistance from the inception is the root cause of the on-going saga and unremitting embarassment to all Calvarites and Malaysians at large.
The BODs do owe a spiritual and legal duty to the whole assembly of Calvary Church worshippers to act diligently and promote and uphold the truth and honesty for the sake of God's kingdom principles. A most fundamental priciple of faith and obedience is to walk the talk and be the salt and light to the world.
When a doubt is cast upon any Church leader in the proper financial management and book-keeping practice of the church, the overseer and supervisory role of BODs will undoubtedly be questioned. If there's nothing wrong with the forensic auditors' report, let the interested parties read the report without imposition of written undertaking and pre-ondition.
Pray that PG is truly willing to bring about an early closure by firstly removing the pre-conditions.
PG & BODs ARE SIMPLY SHAMELESS
.....they commit conflict of interest
Over and over and over again and they will continue to do so.
NORMAL people will be ABSOLUTELY ASHAMED
to stand behind pulpit and address the congregation.
Dear CT,
I have the thoughts on this statement "(The recent de-registration of CIM as a member of NECF may have implications on its tax-free status)."
Can CT follow up on this hypothesis and establish this as a fact ? This will help many of members of CC in understanding the issue better.
As a non-Calvarite following what is going on, I continue to pray that there is a honourable and peaceful solution to this matter, and that His Name, LORD JESUS's Name be not tarnished.
Further prolongation of all these conflicts, and further negative or bad publicity brings more shame to PG, Calvary, the Church and our Lord's Name.
So, at some point, all these squabbles must come to an end.
In all humility, seek a peaceful end to all these `fireworks'.
Let the LORD handle it. Vengeance is His. Pray for your leaders, for Mercy and Repentance.
Tim S
Who are you to tell people to stop giving to Calvary Church? Who appointed you as an agent to rob God?
If there is abuse of funds in Calvary Church, God will deal with that person/persons appropriately. Read your Bible and tell me if there has been any prophet of God called by God to tell the people to stop giving to God.
Who appointed you as the agent to rob God?
I can't believe that educated and esteemed public figures is part of this so-called "Truth, Transparency and Good Governance" act - each one of you - KC and family, HM and family, Winslow, Liza, etc - you are losing people's respect.
Your so-called witness Dr Lum is not credible, ask him to resolve his own financial problems first.
Who appointed you as an agent to rob God?
I am sure you are not going to publish my comments, so this is for your reading pleasure.
Yes, Agree with 'pshn', the whole BOD and SP and wife 'memang muka tembok'--shameless.
Somehow, they still 'policing', now, they are 'chopping' the children of concerned members, not allowing them to serve, what kind of church is this?
ai-say-man, anonymous again.
Why you all like to say TTG people say this, say that but we never hear them say like that.
They never say don't give to God, they say don't give to CC. Since when CC become God. CC is God's house, CC is not God. Don't always come here and think you can confuse people lah.
Dear Anonymous at 9.05am,
I wish to respond to your comment "Who are you to tell people to stop giving to Calvary Church? Who appointed you as an agent to rob God?"
Please brother/sister, do NOT bear false witness as it's not good.
How did you conclude that CT is advising others not to give to God? Please read this blog carefully (on the right-hand column "Call to Calvarites") for CT only says, and I quote,"
"STOP GIVING TO CALVARY. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so."
Anonymous, nobody appointed CT as an agent to rob God, and by saying it yourself, you're indeed the accuser of the brethren.
Stop it. This is hitting below the belt, anonymous.
God bless you,
Ah Beng No. 2
Hey Anonymous, just because ppl got financial problems doesn't mean ppl is not credible. You think only rich ppl are credible lah. No wonder SP and family holding on CC's job and not letting go. SAP not useful anymore, Ladies Meeting also lazy to preach but use Joyce Meyer's tape message to conduct a service. Why is she still holding a job in CC? For the pay? so members will think of her as credible? Nonsence.
BTW, ppl in the whole world is going to have financial difficulties, so all also not credible, is it?
I also can't believe that ordained and esteemed public preachers is part of this so-called misuse of funds in the church scandal. Pastors are losing people's respect more everyday.
Hello "Anonymous"
You are so good to use the word " Agent", then, let me tell you lar, you are truly "Agent of SP" but no courage to use your name-- If you are a born-again Christian, I am sure you would not simply put word in people's mouth..
Please be reminded, dont simply accuse the concerned members and TTG, God is watching..This whole saga started because of our back-slided SP and people like You, no sincerity to resolve and be transparent and honest with the members.
The truth is those concerned members 'had stop giving' way back even 2 years ago when question raised with regards to the church and ccc account and accountability.
I have many friends told me that they stop giving long-long ago..
Take a look at all the last 10 years mission report and also annual account..you can find the answers yourself..
Robbing God???????
Dear Anonymous,
I am not a Calvarite but I hope that the explanation below will help clear the air about the issue of robbing God when we do NOT give to the LOCAL church that we are attending
The word "tithe" literally means 'a tenth'. Today it is used as a Law in many churches to force Christians to give one tenth of their income to the church. Many are told that they are "robbing God" if they do not give at least this much to the institution they attend each Sunday.
How ironic that most preachers today preach almost nothing but "grace, grace, grace" except when they preach on Giving - when suddenly they feel free to load people with condemnation and guilt. For some reason this seems to be the one subject where they "lay down the law". I wonder why? The fact is, in many places the church machinery relies on this law to force people to give and keep the whole 'machine' churning along.
But is Tithing a New Testament practice at all? Is it really for Christians, or is it part of the Old Covenant? Is there really a law in force stating that all Christians must give ten percent? Or are we supposed to be "cheerful givers" - simply giving whatever God has placed on our hearts?
You may be surprised to learn how little the word 'Tithing' is even mentioned in the New Testament. In fact, there is no actual Scripture telling CHRISTIANS to tithe at all. There is one NT Scripture telling PHARISEES to tithe. But in all the letters of the apostles to the church, they never say that this was for Christians. And in the entire book of Acts (-a history of the first 30 years of the Early Church) there is NOT EVEN ONE mention of tithing. There are plenty of examples of people giving money "from the heart", but NO MENTION of tithing. Isn't that interesting?
Yet people will often quote the words of Jesus to the Pharisees as though this tells CHRISTIANS to keep tithing. But it doesn't. Here is what Jesus said: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices - mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former." (Matt 23:23, NIV).
Notice that Jesus refers to these things as "matters of the law". That is what they are. They are matters of the Old Testament Law - not part of the New Covenant for Christians. Jesus Himself referred to them that way. And notice who he was talking to in the above passage. He was talking to LAW-KEEPING JEWS who were still under the OLD COVENANT. (-The New Covenant would not begin until Jesus died and rose again). So what Jesus was saying was right - FOR THEM. But not for us - and not for now.
Yet the Tithing proponents seize on the phrase: "You should have practiced the latter without neglecting the former." The reason they seize on this is because it is the ONLY Scripture they have in the whole New Testament that even vaguely pushes Tithing! And yet it is talking to Pharisees!
Let me be clear here. This is their BEST New Testament Scripture on the subject. They have almost nothing else. And it is talking to PHARISEES. And it clearly states that Tithing is a "matter of the law". How dare these people apply this Scripture to today's Christians? We are not under Law. The Bible tells us that. What a gall these people have - making people feel guilty about an Old Testament Law, just so they can get more money out of us. How disgraceful.
"You are not under law, but under grace" (Rom 6:14). "But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under law." (Gal 5:18).
In fact, the only other passage that really focuses on Tithing in the New Testament underlines this very point. At the start of Hebrews 7 there is a passage referring to tithing in the Old Testament. It clearly states that tithing is part of the Old Law (v 5). And then it goes on to say: "The former regulation is set aside because it is weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God." (Heb 7:18-19).
The point that is being made here is that the Old Covenant was a covenant of "regulations" (like HAVING to give one tenth) but the New Covenant is a covenant of the HEART. And we are to give out of a heart overflowing with the love of God. -NOT because we are "forced" to give one tenth! The Old Law is gone. We live under a New Covenant today.
Now another major argument that the Tithing people use is that "Tithing came before the Law". They use the example of Abraham and Melchizedek (Gen 14:18-20). Therefore, they say, it still applies to us today.
Well, I have one simple question for these people: Isn't it true that CIRCUMCISION came before the Law also? (See Gen 17). And everyone knows that Circumcision is treated as part of the Old Law that has been done away with. It is the same with Tithing. No difference at all.
As we have seen, in every New Testament Scripture tithing is clearly spoken of as being part of the "OLD LAW". It is not part of the New Covenant at all. How shameful that it is being used today to manipulate Christians into giving ten percent to church institutions. How sad and totally unscriptural.
As former pastor Bruce Lengeman states in his article 'The Raping of the Tithe': "The title sounds harsh, but I believe it is fairly accurate due to the damage done by the erroneous teaching of the doctrine of tithing... Plain and simple, the doctrine of tithing as it is commonly taught in the contemporary evangelical, or Bible-believing church is twisted exegesis!"
SO HOW THEN SHOULD WE GIVE?
Today when it comes to 'Giving' we are often preached-to out of Malachi 3 in the Old Testament, which tells the Jewish people to "bring the full tithes into the storehouse" and says that they were "robbing God" and they were "cursed" if they did not do so. (Mal 3:8-10).
Modern preachers love to equate the 'storehouse' with their own church(!!), so that they can apply this Scripture to themselves. But the reality is very different. As Bruce Lengeman states: "The 'storehouse' of Malachi has no likeness to the church structure of today. The storehouse was neither a place of assembly, nor a place of worship. It was merely a storehouse for tithed goods to be distributed to Levites, who had no inheritance, and also to widows, strangers, and orphans."
How very different to the guilt-trip that we are hearing today!
And when we get to the Book of Acts we find that indeed MOST OF THE MONEY that came in actually went to feed and clothe the poor and the widows. In fact, it was a common practice for the Christians to sell any spare possessions and lay the money at the apostles' feet, for distribution to the poor. (See Acts 4:32-37). What love these people demonstrated! And this was true giving "from the HEART", not from some "LAW" that told them how much to give.
There is also plenty of support in the New Testament for giving to those who minister the gospel. (See 1 Cor 9:13-14, 1 Tim 5:17, etc.) But there is a far greater emphasis on giving to the widows and orphans.
What I believe God would have us do today is be led by the Holy Spirit in our giving. Find ways to give to the poor and the widows in an effective way. (-For instance, some Christian charities like 'Open Doors' support persecuted Christian widows in Islamic countries, etc). Also find effective Christian ministries to give to.
In many ways the 'local church storehouse' concept is a deceptive fallacy. The fact is, there was no such thing as "church buildings" in the New Testament anyway, so how could that be the 'storehouse'? We need to give where God leads us - with a truly cheerful heart.
Dear David,
Thanks for the wonderful teaching on the real meaning of tithing. For many years I always feel guilty if I don't pay tithes to CC. Many of my friends also say the same thing when we talk about it. I have been asking around some church leaders what is the real teaching about tithing but many dare not give a specific answer.
You write with confidence and you sound like you know exactly what you are saying. I am so thankful to God for sending you to write to us. At least now I can pray and ask God to show us what is the truth and ask the Holy Spirit to speak to us.
Anonymous 9.05, if anybody is robbing God, it is PG and family who are MISUSING God's money. And are u saying that if we give to other churches and other christian organizations, it is not giving to GOD?? What sort of wrong teaching are u advocating???? My goodness...
Besides misusing God's money, PG and family are also MISUSING their power and authority by forbidding ppl to serve just because they are not yes men. Can't say I'm suprised though coz that's how manipulative and power crazy ppl work..by eliminating those with their own opinions and keeping those who are under their mind control.
Amen! Well Said David,
So instead of having a systematic 'tithe' collection practice in the church, we devise a mean of bringing the needs of the poor/widows and support of worthy minister of the gospel to groups of Christians who can then disburse their God given resources as the Spirit led. That will be in the form of Christian Charities ?
Dear David,
That was indeed an eye opener and bold statement.
Imagine, all of us have been having this guilt on us all these while.
Thank you for the spiritual enlightenment!
To David
Feb 16 2009 6.34 pm
I agree with you absolutely.
You wrote a brave article
And you wrote true.
CC has been subjected to spiritual arm-twisting for 40 years.
We have to answer the question.
Who have gain the most from this?
The shameless cannot possibly feel ashame, hence unable to repent!
So the only thing left for them to do is to justify what they did.
Like saying innocently “We do not know what is CBT ??!!”
Aren't the BODs supposed to give advise.....NO ???
Absolutely repulsive!!
It can be more but it can't be less.
PG & Associates
Within the legal fraternity
IGNORANCE IS NO PLEA !!
You are servants of God
You yourself taught...
...the more you know God
...the wiser you become.
40 years of teaching and preaching the word of God,
Locally and abroad;
An honorary Doctorate for serving God;
You craftily position yourself as Chairman of almost all the committees in the church;
You are responsible for changing and modifying the Church Constitution until it is almost absolutely biased towards the BODs (of which you as Chairman)
You convinced the BODs that you and another Deacon should the only people to evaluate the annual performance of your close relatives in order to determine their pay and pay increment;
You then transfer funds from one church portfolio to your personal portfolio;
And youhave the audacity to say in a recent EGM that “THERE IS NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST”.
And you dare say in another meeting of Church Leaders that “You are ignorant as to what is CBT ??”
IS IT NOT COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT "POWER CORRUPTS; AND ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY !!??"
You are simply holding too many positions of power in the church for your own good and for the good of the church. That is why all these malpractices are occurring.
You are making a mockery of God.
You are making a mockery of the Calvary Church.
You are making a mockery of Christianity.
All Christian denomination in this country
.....are aware of what you are doing!!
Any decent gentlemen, any man with just a little bit of self-respect,
...would have RESIGNED LONG AGO.
It is simply SHAMELESSNESS that can make a person stay!!
SP said:
Finance and accounts cannot follow the corporate world
But Datuk and Tan Sri title I must have from this world
Even though the bible said all of us of not of the world
But we are all living in this nice and beautiful world
Finance and accounts cannot follow the corporate world
We must get a reputable architect from corporate world
That our building be named as best design in the world
Most importantly my name be appeared in this world
Finance and accounts cannot follow the corporate world
Make your pledges, promises and fulfil them in this world
You must give so that I can be comfortable in this world
You must give in order to support my lifestyle in this world
Finance and accounts cannot follow the corporate world
First class and business class I must travel in this world
You jump into the lake, as I will fly around in this world
Just remember all men are liars except me in this world
Finance and accounts cannot follow the corporate world
Expensive house and expensive car are mine in this world
Branded clothes and shoes I cannot resist in this world
The money is in your pocket and sure not in the world
Finance and accounts cannot follow the corporate world
You go to another church and do not disturb my world
The wealth of your neighbours are to enrich my world
This is not coveteousness but is destined in this world
Finance and accounts cannot follow the corporate world
Just make sure you finance all my expenses in this world
Transparency and accountabilty are of the corporate world
Just do not hinder me and my plans for a namesake world
Dear all, I am currently in Manila and I would like to share with you on the church which I attended over the weekend (no, it is not affiliated to the church of the good friend of PG). This church also had pledges and they prayed for 500 pledge givers! They did not pray for $xxx! I attended their bible study after service and it was on Ezekiel 34. Of course I have to ask the question about shepherds who have misled the sheep. The teacher said it will be answered at the end of the study where she played a video where the speaker said "shepherds who eat the sheep alive and fly in their jets. God knows and he is very angry. His design is to redirect us to the one big shepherd".
It is really sad that we still have people who do not think and choose to take the easy way out of "God's anointed cannot make mistakes". Yes, God's anointed; but, remember, God's anointed is also human.
We heard a special interpretation of the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard last sunday.
Particularly there were references with veiled and cynical tauntings against "workers who came early and worked long hours"(long time members) but received same wages and raised complaints ( members who spoke up against CC leadership) such workers had "an evil eye"( members who raised issues but allegedly out of "wrong motives").
We were surprised that it was repeatedly emphasised "Take what is yours and go your way. Anything wrong that I do what is mine? What is your problem? or is it your evil eye? Is it because you have an evil eye?"
PG said confidently through his preachings: "what law has been broken, did I do anything wrong? I have every right to do with my own money and why do you complain against my generousity?" by using the landlord's position to rain condemnations on concerned members and worshippers.
However, we note who is the Landlord in the parable: I see it as the reference to God our Heavenly Father. What about the rights of God our Father? of course He is sovereign and has every right to decide on the wages due to each worker. We do not question that.
The money as referred in the parable and all resources belong to God our Heavenly Father but what about the money in CC or Missions Dept it DOES NOT belong to PG?
How can the SP of CC do with CC moneys as he wishes and to be generous with it as though it belongs to him?
How can the SP reward whoever he wishes as he likes according to his own generousity with absolute disregard of the laws of the land?
We left the church service, shocked that PG even used the Parable to twist around to justify his actions and furthermore with such arrogance!
Mind you, the sheep are not deaf nor dumb! They hear the words from the shepherd.. loud and clear.
I have heard of people who need help in medical expenses appeal to CC but they were turned away.
Is it not our Christian duty to look after our own brothers and sisters needs? Does not the Bible teach us we cannot just pray for a hungry person WHEN we should really feed him?
Possibly our pastors do not experience 'poverty' because of their high stipends so when needy people approach them, they are being turned away.
Sad, why have a 200 Million church when we do not even give a few thousand to help a church member!!!!
It is little wonder why David challenge us to re-think our giving
JL
EVEN LITTLE CHILDREN KNOW THE PRINCIPLE OF CBT
I watched little Jojo (3years old) playing with her toys.
I saw some toys belonging to Danny (4 years old) and gave it to Jojo.
Jojo immediately said, “Dat not mine. Dat Danny.”
Little Jojo may not know the word CBT.
But she knew at 3 years old the very basic principle in life:
What is mine is mine,
What is his is his,
And I cannot, should not, take WHAT IS NOT MINE.
YOU DO NOT TRANSFER ASSETS BELONGING TO THE CHURCH
INTO YOUR PERSONAL ACCOUNT
I have to really stretch my imagination to accept that PG doesn’t know what is CBT.
He has been involved in decisions concerning church funds for 40 years & does not know what is CBT??
But never mind. Let’s say he does not know the technical legal jargon.
But surely he cannot claim ignorance that it is wrong to be the Chairman of one Church financial committee and be involved in the transfer of funds from that ministry into another financial account which is under his personal name!!??
My belief is this.
PG knew it was wrong.
When he was found out He could not admit it.
It would’ve been a disastrous confession of guilt.
So SAP pleads innocence on both of their behalf – “We don’t know what is CBT”
(Did PG ever said he didn’t know what is CBT??
And the scenario immediately switched from a situation that was chargeable in court,
To a new scenario which appeared forgivable.......ignorance you see.
Poor innocent PG.... he just didn’t know ....... !! Can a crafty person not know about CBT!!??
Lets turn the scenario the other way round.
Let’s say I could transfer funds in CIM into my personal account.
Do you think PG is so naive and so innocent,with no idea about CBT that he would not know that something was amiss??
I will bet my bottom dollar that he will be the first to cry out aloud, louder than even TTG can CB, CBT, CBT, CBT!!
And would PG just sit quietly should the BODs (Job’s comforters) advise him – LET GOD BE GOD!!!
BTW, it is known in the police circles that when a man is caught and charged for a particular crime for the first time, he would have actually committed the same crime several times before only that he got away before. Apply this principle to CC.
So lets all close our eyes and ears and say, " Poor innocent PG, He just don't know CBT, he is naive, he has no exposure to the corporate world, he doesn't know the sophistication of handling finances.
LET ME SUGGEST TO CC. DO WHAT THE GOVERNMENT ALWAYS DOES EVERY YEAR. ALL PASTORS, DECLARE ALL YOUR ASSETS. IF EVERYTTHING IS ALRIGHT, THEN WE CAN ALL START AFRESH AND ANEW!!
I HAVE ANNUALLY DECLARED MY ASSETS. WHY CAN'T "GODLY" PASTORS DO IT ???!!!
THE MORAL STANDARD IN THE SECULAR IS MUCH, MUCH HIGHER THAN IN CALVARY !!
Secular world CEOs and senior mgmt are asked to take pay cut due to current financial crisis. PG, wife, son, daughter and son-in-law should also do the same..lead by example..reduce salaries from 5 figure to 4 figure and with the money saved from giving them lower salary of below RM10k, church can use it for CCC. Emails from Bro Han asking members to keep on giving to CCC should be ignored until PG and family start leading by example
Dearest Beloved Honourable PG,
With so many unresolved problems in the Church i suggest that you n family should go for 3 months or more full paid sabbatical leave to seek God for HIs Will. Who knows God may have better plans for you instead of preaching in vengence in your weekly sermons. Seek God's wisdom and look Up and Out instead of looking In your treasures in CC. Don't worry if God tells you to leave CC because He will surely provide better pastures outside. Remember God's blessing is everywhere.
God Bless!
Concerned Senior member
As I was carrying the burden for the few who had been accused by some commentor in this column. Early this morning as I woke up for prayer, The Lord had given this particular song for the few of you, KC, HM, Dr Lum, Lisa and others..
Give thanks with a great full heart, give thanks to the Holy one; give thanks, because He had given Jesus Christ His Son, and now let the weak said I am strong, and the poor said I am rich; because of what the Lord has done for us, give thanks.
Praise the Lord.. God just want the concerned members to give thanks and He had assured us for what He had done. Amen
This is to support what Anonymous 8.23am said today. This is from "Purpose Driven Life Daily Devotional" dated 17 Feb 2009.
___________________________________
Surrender: Let Go and Let God Work
by Rick Warren
Surrender yourself to the Lord, and wait patiently for him. Psalm 37:7 (GWT)
*** *** *** ***
Surrendering your life means:
· Following God’s lead without knowing where he’s sending you;
· Waiting for God’s timing without knowing when it will come;
· Expecting a miracle without knowing how God will provide;
· Trusting God’s purpose without understanding the circumstances.
You know you’re surrendered to God when you rely on God to work things out instead of trying to manipulate others, force your agenda, and control the situation. You let go and let God work.You don’t have to always be in charge. Instead of trying harder, you trust more.
You also know you’re surrendered when you don’t react to criticism and rush to defend yourself.
Surrendered hearts show up best in relationships. You are not self-serving, you don’t edge others out, and you don’t demand your rights.
The most difficultthing for many people to surrender is their money. Many have thought, “I want to live for God but I also want to earn enough money to live comfortably and retire someday.”
Retirement is not the goal of a surrender life, because it competes with God for the primary attention of our lives. Jesus said, “You cannot serve both God and money,” (Matthew 6:24 NIV)and “Wherever your treasure is, your heart will be also” (Matthew 6:21 NIV).
The supreme example of self-surrender is Jesus. The night before his crucifixion Jesus surrendered himself to God’s plan. He prayed, “Father, everything is possible for you. Please take this cup of suffering away from me. Yet I want your will, not mine” (Mark 14:36 NLT).
Jesus didn’t pray, “God, if you’re able to take away this pain, please do so.” He began by affirming that God can do anything! He prayed, “God, if it is in your best interest to remove this suffering, please do so. But if it fulfills your purpose, that’s what I want, too.”
Genuine surrender says, “Father, if this problem, pain, sickness, or circumstance is needed to fulfill your purpose and glory in my life or in another’s life, please don’t take it away!”
This level of maturity doesn’t come easy.In Jesus’ case, he agonized so much over God’s plan that he sweat drops of blood. Surrender is hard work. In our case, it requires intense warfare against our self-centered nature.
___________________________________
I think that Anonymous is right. SP & family should take time off to seek God for new and fresh direction. Using the pulpit to vent out your frustration is not healthy for anybody especially the speaker himself.
A MATTER OF GOOD FINANCIAL STEWARDSHIP
First and foremost, I want to praise GOD for His Hand in leading the
direction of the development of this TTG Cause in revealing the ROOT problems
and showing us the answers to the many fundamental Biblical truth so that as
believers In Christ Jesus, we can remain steadfast in our faith, and not be led astray
by man’s deception and manipulation no matter how hard they try!
I wish to say GOD has given TTG assurance in Psalm 124 titled “God is on Our Side”. In the pursuit of TTG, if it had not been the Lord who was on our side from the outset we wouldn’t have come thus far. The unfolding of every hidden issue is
clearly revealed one by one , and we can look forward to His cleansing of Calvary Church.
Thus, it is timely and NO co-incidence that “Anonymous ” (February 16, 2009:05 AM) had brought up this question: ‘Who appointed you as an agent to rob God?’ The replies from David and others have already adequately answered ‘Anonymous’ misguided view and wrongful accusation. However, allow me to add the following
Questions which one may wish to ask oneself:
Q. DID THE SP/CEO & THE BOD PRACTISE GOOD FINANCIAL STEWARDSHIP AS SEEN IN THE MANNER THEY ‘MANAGED’ :
1. The Budget of CCC?
2. The Extended Ministries
3. The Missions Funds
4. CIM ( Calvary International Ministries belonging to SP)
5. *The Stipends ( Salary)
• I have pointed out at the AGM 2006, and again in 2007, on the high Stipends (approx 50%!) over the Total Expenditure, and had asked for breakdown but it was strongly resisted. And the BOD had not acted to address what was said “would be looked into it”
It may well be worthy to note :
a) In 2006, Philip Tan who was not a Deacon then,
stood up to defend the high stipends for Pastors, even stating if he had his
way, 90% was not a problem as they were doing the work of God.
b) When even the world faced financial crisis in recent years, nothing was
done to show their awareness & concern by tangible actions. No austerity
drive, on the contrary, extravagance is still the order of the day. No
volunteering to take a pay cut—instead ‘Guaranteed’ increment to an
already exorbitant salaries & perks package they draw for themselves.
(Yet, through the BOD they have the audacity to ask for love offering
from the Congregation at Christmas, year in year out, over and above their
‘FAT’ stipends. In addition, they enjoy 13th month salary--an equivalent to a
contractual Bonus, and top-up with generous gratuity too.)
Now, ask, Is it wise to continue to give based on the above situation or, give where the most deserving NEEDS are for the genuine Kingdom of God, which truly is our priority?
To David,
Thank you so much for reaching out to us with such a meaningful message about tithing. I am glad someone finally makes sense. Our giving should be spirit led and Jesus has specifically taught us to give to the poor (Mark 10:21) and needy (Matthew 6:2-4).
I am glad that some transparency is exercised here whereby I can read something rather than nothing. CC leadership is very quiet. But I believe my prayers will not go unanswered. God is still at work and I trust that He will let righteousness prevail. I am perturbed with the disclosure of the accounts summary on a public blog. Maybe the owner can consider removing the numbers but heresay, I leave it to the people's voice.
Reference : Anonymous on 17th Feb, 10:00 pm
"Emails from Bro Han asking members to keep on giving to CCC should be ignored until PG and family start leading by example"
How many members have received Han's email? This action is beyond description; I cannot find a suitable adjective.
Did he quote from the Bible why the members should give?
I'm here to share with all of you why i still put money in the offering bag everytime it comes to me, and why i still take part in the faith promise and why i still pay my tithes.
i am a child of God. and i AM a bringer, a carrier of His presence. Everywhere i go, there GOD is! how wonderful is that! as are all of us. everytime i walk into calvary church, THERE IS THE PRESENCE OF GOD! because people like you and me are there..
where we're worshipping Him, THERE he iS! it's wonderful that GOd is enthroned on the praises of His people! and i know that when i give, i give not to any organisation or human made cause... wanna know WHY?!! because GOD searches my heart.. the bible says that.. and i know that GOD lives in calvary church, nevermind who it's leaders are!GOD LIVES IN YOUR HEART!! and when i give, i tell him, "God, YOU use this money as you please. you use this money for YOUR kingdom."
and i tell you what, that's what FAITH is about. i KNOW god will use the money only as HE sees fit.
which man could possibly thwart the work of God using what i've offered to him straight from my heart?? do i have to fear what will become of my money?? of course not!! and best of all.. HE BLESSES ME WITH SO MUCH MORE WITH WHICH TO GIVE HIM!! ain't he an AWESOME GOD!??!
A STRANGLEHOLD
We are in a stranglehold because of the craftiness of PG over 40 years in CC.
The Constitution is absolutely biased toward PG and BODs.
The congregation elected people into the BOD who were carefully and personally sieved by PG.
No matter who you elected they were all PG’s yes-men.
PG has almost total control over employment of all Calvary Church Staff.
Termination of service of staff is under PG’s control.
PG is in control of all Church Committees especially where there is a high turnover of cash – Church Finance and Missions Committee.
In other words,
PG has almost absolute control over practically everything in Calvary Church.
In this sort of situation, temptation is great for PG to manipulate funds and power.
It is not a healthy situation for any company, any Government Ministries and Institutions, let alone a church.
And whose fault is it.?
-The BODs, for lacking the gumption to say “No”.
-The Calvarites for voting the wrong people into the BODs,
-The Calvarites who did not stand up for truth, transparency and good governance.
I am reminded of three cute little monkeys – I want to see no evil, I want to hear no evil and I want to say no evil. In other word the three monkeys are saying together, “I don’t want to bother. Let’s close our eyes. Let God be God.”
Don’t be monkeys. Be responsible and discerning Christians.
Surely truth, transparency and good governance is good for everyone, PG included.
and a message to pshn
the three monkeys?
it's quite simple. there isn't an "in other words... i don't want to bother..." and whatever not... NO it's not like that
it's simple
1 i want to see no evil
therefore SEE NO EVIL! since when did it have anything to do with not bothering?
2 i want to hear no evil
therefore HEAR NO EVIL! nothing to do with closing your eyes!
3 i want to say no evil
i tell you this.. SAY NO EVIL!! is it WRONG to let GOd be GOd? one thing's for certain i wouldn't want to say any evil..
i'd be a happy monkey to stick to all those three quotes.. they're simple as they are.. and i think they can't be worded any better
Hi Karl, it's true what you said abt how God sees how hearts when we give and He will bless us if we give in the right spirit but God has also given us a spirit of discernment and wisdom - I personally don't want to give to a church who is not a good steward of God's money. RM100 given to another church where God leads me to give will be used to bless the poor and unfortunate while the same RM100, if i were to give it to CC, it would merely be used as a tiny part to pay for Senior Pastor's business air ticket to US for his monthly conferences. Which one will God be more pleased in? U decide
Karl, think you're misintepreting PSHN's comments. The phrase 'Let God be God' has been wrongly used and manipulated by BOD as a way to ask people to shut up. They don't really mean let God be God, what they mean is...don't ask anything about why we are doing what we are doing because it is not your position to do so.Even though things may seem wrong and things are done wrongly, don't question us because even though PG has done something wrong, we cannot stop him from doing it because he is the senior pastor of the church.
Dear CT Readers,
Let me introduce you to Karl before anyone start replying to his comment. He is one of CC's college going young person. He is also the son of one of our Deacons. Take this into consideration before you reply to him.
Aiseh man.. Karl, woah, you get a 'pre-protection', if you have chosen to be a part of this..you have to take whatever that come to you, take heed.
We are talking about serious and very serious issue, I remembered you were the last one or two who asked PG the question during EGM in August 2008, whether he is going to keep the money or what.. so, what was his answer then, can you still remember?
And why now (In December 2008) during Sunday Service, PG decided to 'release back the money to mission account huh? Smart fellow like you, a young undergraduate sure know lar hor??
Dont you think that your intelligence had been undermind and insulted? Because of PG's answer to you at the EGM and now the event turned otherwise..
My advice to you is, you better focus on your studies and let PG himself answer for himself.. He is a real "big man" , must learn to take reponsibility instead of getting You--one of the 'young Agent of SP' to answer for him eeh!! Ok?OK?
There will always be a group of loyalists who refuse to see the wrong in those by whom their hearts and minds have been captured.
Hence they "see no evil" because they have been blinded. They also refuse "to hear any evil" because what is wrong is deemed unimportant or trival and they live in a state of denial. Hence, they pretend they don't hear any evil. Further, they think they are so righteous and hence they "say no evil".
However, eventhough they see no evil, hear no evil and say no evil nevertheless, when wrongdoings have been perpetrated and committed, such neglect and denial of the truth of the matter will not change the effects and consequences of such wrongdoings.
Just like the law of gravity eventhough you pretend that it is not there and you deny its existence, can you change the consequences if you were to jump from the top of the building in defiance of the law?
The outcome will just take its course and you have to live by the outcome.
Since the Church leadership refused to deal with the serious matters at hand, the results and consequences to the church due to such gross negligence and refusal to act will be drastic and overwhelmingly damaging to the church.
God expects US TO DO the things that WE CAN DO and GOD WILL DO the things that WE CANNOT DO.
We live by the choices we make in life; so the church leadership chooses which path it wants to take...to obey God's commandments or to follow the path of least resistence by pretending things are fine and hoping that matters will settle by themselves.
The consequences will naturally follow.
Karl Le-yon Edward said..."have to fear what will become of my money?? of course not!! and best of all.. HE BLESSES ME WITH SO MUCH MORE WITH WHICH TO GIVE HIM!! ain't he an AWESOME GOD!??!"
This brings to mind the similar 'doctrine' on Faith and giving $$$, whereby, on 08 Feb this Pastor gave a testimony on how he had rationalised & challegned with his young child to give, and in return she was blessed xxx times more!
We can see how this dangerous doctrine of "give $ & be blessed $XXX folds in return" has taken root in CC--and how naive youths and even the little ones have absorbed it as 'God's way of blessing'-- What a simplistic & attractive way to gain blessing! but how very misleading indeed.
It is not my intention to enter into a discourse on this subject, but to bring to attention that this kind of misguided teachings have been fed to the congregation long enough over the pulpit, as well as in CW classes-- laying down a foundation of wrong beliefs, and it ought to cease.
I sincerely hope Karl's trusting heart and love for God will be guided correctly by those truly grounded in the Word of God.
LET’S INCREASE THE STIPEND
Dear Liza
I would like to make a further remark concerning the part below:
February 18 2009 12.43PM
“I have pointed out at the AGM 2006, and again in 2007, on the high Stipends (approx 50%!) a) In 2006, P T who was not a Deacon then,
stood up to defend the high stipends for Pastors, even stating if he had his way, 90% was not a problem as they were doing the work of God”.
PT has always been an employee in the foreign exchange. He has never had much experience in management. To spend 90% on just the stipend is simply ludicrous. Any company or church will collapse if that is the proportion spent on just the stipend.
With the huge income that Calvary Church gets, and if 90% is spent on stipend, then PG & SAP will be living an even higher lifestyle, as if the present level is not disgraceful enough! To me what PT said is utter rubbish. But I am sure PG and SAP will be most pleased by his comment. Notice that PT is now a member of the BODs. Any others like to be in the BODs? Just do likewise and I am sure that PG will see to it that you get in.
But why is PT so keen on giving such an excessive stipend to the Pastors. They are all earning roughly from 10 – 15K a month, and PG 25K and SAP 15K.
Furthermore, isn’t PT aware that, in contrast to the common people of the church, maintenance of vehicles, petrol, tax, insurance, driver are all taken care of by the church??
COME ON PT OF BOD!!!
I CHALLENGE YOU TO INITIATE AN INCREASE THE % OF STIPEND OF STAFF OF CC TO 90% OF THE CHURCH EXPENDITURE AS YOU SUGGESTED IN 2006.
AND LETS SEE IF CALVARY CHURCH CAN STILL STAND FINANCIALLY !!!
To Concerned members; February 18, 2009 10:46 AM
I quote you, “The Lord had given this particular song for the few of you, KC, HM, Dr Lum, Lisa and others...” I wonder which Lord is it of God or Lord of the World that you referring at?
Or else they would not have done this and would have done it in private since this is family affairs of God. They try to disintegrate the family of God and you partake in this bloody communion by giving thanks. It does not care who is weak who is strong but the words and gospel must be shared
What are you talking about? Jesus Christ? What about his love and forgiveness just like many sharing that have been shared….
Leaves us concerned member so that we can worship in spirit and truth without you all TTG disturbing the peace of God!
I would say by now with all the revelations in CC it is very obvious that informed members and regular worshippers have lost their trust in CC pastors and BOD already. In fact many have lost their trust and respect for pastors and BOD long long ago.
It is indeed sad but it is something that has been the leadership's own doing.
If matters had been sincerely and honestly dealt with and for which there were plenty of opportunities for matters to be properly managed, we need not be facing the present circumstances.
However, pastors and BOD vehemently refused all attempts to resolve matters but chose to hide, manipulate, ratify minutes, rectify errors and silence matters. How long can this continue?
They say "let God be God" instead, which is just a lame excuse to choose the easy way. It's just like, placing the problem at Jesus' feet and expecting the Lord to pick it up from there! It is not resolving the conflicts at hand. So the revelations of abuses, wrongdoings and mistakes(put mildly) continue.
The wounds continue to fester and the disease deteriorates until finally the worst will be the natural result.
Pastors and BOD, I am sure you are well aware, the longer the matters drag the more serious and irreparable the damage.
To: Karl Le-yon Edward said...
February 18 2009 9.06PM
That's the problem. You major in the minors.
Don’t divert from the main issue and get caught up with monkeys.
The main issue is:
In other words,
PG has almost absolute control over practically everything in Calvary Church.
In this sort of situation, temptation is great for PG to manipulate funds and power.
It is not a healthy situation for any company, any Government Ministries and Institutions, let alone a church.
And whose fault is it.?
-The BODs, for lacking the gumption to say “No”.
-The Calvarites for voting the wrong people into the BODs,
-The Calvarites who did not stand up for truth, transparency and good governance.
Don’t be monkeys. Be responsible and discerning Christians.
Surely truth, transparency and good governance is good for everyone, PG included.
To: Karl
As a young person, your philosophy of 'rather be a happy monkey' is highly unwelcome among to the young adult. Young man, learn to take responsibility.. you are the pillar of future nation, what you pratise in lives can change or make your nation; your church; your family; your surrounding and your environment.
You can choose to impact and influence the world or you can choose to help to destroy..
Example: if you were to see one of your very close friend taking drug or into some 'unhealthy' activity..What is your responsibilty? keep quiet, counsel him or leave him alone? which one do choose?
Hence, please; Karl this is a church, what more?? Do you want to see our SP continue with his 'wrong'? or you want to play a part to 'counsel' and help him?
Dear LL, truly this is many parent's in CC is concerned about. Our children being taught wrong doctrines about giving. My children came back and told me they were taught tithing after CNY. The teachers used some kid with sweets to illustrate. Every 10sweets must give God 1 sweet. Those who give is GOOD. Then another kid who don't give is BAD.
My kids give their money to support a child overseas through WorldVision. My children also got more money in the Ang Pows compared to last year. Praise the Lord.
Hello more concerned member
The Lord knows what is in my heart, for you to accuse a christian in Christ--I emphasise again--Jesus Christ since you are referring to your "own God", you are truly the accuser of the brethren. I plead for the blood of Jesus Christ to cleanse you anyway!
If you think in such a shallow manner and persecuting all the TTG, I must tell you, You are absolutely wrong! My advice is, you better go start reading all the post from day one. You missed all the points however. What made you think that the TTG did not do all the works necessarily before they started the blog??
What made you think that the one who started all the "unfamily" and "unloving" humiliation was not started by SP and BOD themselves??
They started all the 'scolding' from pulpit, unwarranted announcement, witch hunting, and etc..the list goes on..Anyway, you are wasting your time here..
To More Concerned member. You sound exactly like PG preaching.
1. U say Concerned members God is of the world. My fren, PG’s god is money and the world. If not why holding on and not letting go. Where got ppl so thick skin, I never met before. Some more ask Han to get ppl to give RM40 million this year. Really cannot believe.
2. You r rite. PG thinks CC is his family business so every thing he did in private. Until now, still Private Limited Church. TTG don’t disturb his peace.
3. PG openly in sermon tell members to “go jump in the lake”. Ask that pastor to tell ppl to "take another bus". You now tell us “Leaves” you concerned member to worship. My fren, you like PG want us to leave so you can deceived the new comers to sell, give and follow PG’s “big head” dream. I read earlier only got 5 people ask CT to close down. What happen to the 100s and 1000s? Looks like many people want CT to stay lah.
Dear Brothers and Sister in Christ,
Ps. Kelvin here from Johor Bahru. It sadden me to see that mature Christians among ourselves are not able to see that a young man like Karl Le-yon Edward is actually stumbled by this whole ugly event. This young man is expressing his frustration and disillusion, and my question is how many more young people in our once beloved church is actually stumbled by this amazing episode in our church's history?!
Maybe SP, the pastors and the BOD are not addressing the entire issue urgently or fast enough or they are just taking the 'Mickey' out of us... in other words, 'Mocking' you. However, can't we all please see that we ourselves are ripping the body of Christ in Calvary Church KL apart! In my last entry/comment I wrote that this is precisely what our common adversary, the devil, wants, and those in the Lord's given authority in/with the church will have to eventually give an answer (and not necessary now and to you) and an account for their actions, behaviour, speech... etc. unto the Lord Jesus on that "DAY!"
Karl maybe young and lacking the experience in life, but the young man is clearly stumbled, and all of us would have to give that same accountability for stumbling him and many more young people... even among the adults.
So... who among you are willing to give up of your precious time and effort to encourage, build-up and mentor those who are stumbled? Think about it!
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Ps. Kelvin T.L. Lim
Hello Kelvin Lim,
If ever Karl is stumbled, are you not aware our very own sons and daughters who had grown up in calvary church also stumbled by our pastors and BOD and leaders who refused to address the issues and yet again and again they are getting young people like Karl to blog here.
I believed Karl's parents are fully aware what his son was doing? It was mentioned by one of the Church Leaders earlier in the comment that he is a son of a deacon, so what? then the father should stop him instead of letting him blog here.
For your information, our children were very affected by this whole issues; Both we, as parents did not even want to talk about these with our children but they heard it from their buddies/ their friends in the youth both here and far away from overseas.
Kelvin, to us, you are narrow minded, you are only one sided. Your comment only see that you are also bias and not being fair.
For your info. our very own close friends children in the youth had also been 'persecuted' by the Youth Leader. So, what do you have to say??
hey, I am a 2nd generation calvarite who grew up in church and I have to admit I have been stumbled, NOT by the TTG group but by the pastors and deacons...seriously, the TTG group aren't the ones standing in front on the pulpit every sunday preaching one thing BUT doing another thing; the pastors are...in short..I am disappointed and discouraged that the pastors do not practice what they preach and there is no love and humility amongst the church leadership when it comes to dealing with this matter. To me, if the senior pastor of the church cannot even handle such an issue graciously and humbly, do you expect me to want to listen to him preach about God's love? Frankly, I don't see God's love through his life and I think he should not be allowed to even preach on the pulpit until and IF his name is cleared. Look at MP Elizabeth Wong, eventhough she is a victim, she has graciously offered to resign for the sake of her party.
Ps Kelvin, pls go talk to Senior Pastor Prince Guneratnam if you really want to see this whole issue end. Action speaks louder than words.
Dear Tan n Tan & Soon To Be Ex-Calvarite...
May I say that I am not narrow-minded and bias. I am advocating a closure on this embarrassing episode in our once beloved church. My heart does go-out to all of you who have been stumbled, disappointed and discouraged by SP, the pastors and the BOD... and I am burden by the very fact that your children, Tan n Tan, are very affected by this whole ugly issue. Please know that I will always champion a cause for the young people... and that is why I strongly feel that not only Karl, but many more young people in Calvary Church KL are very badly affected. There's only so much I can do... being based in JB. Please... I ask all parents to take the time and effort to speak, to encourage and to prayer along with their kids and young people. I am always praying with and for you too in JB.
I am quite sure that the pastors of Calvary Church KL are reading this blog... and I do hope so. "Please take a very good look at what is happening! Take a deep look at all the hurting & stumbled people in the church. Take a closer look and ask yourself what are you doing about it. This has gotten out of control. This has taken way too long." Think about it!
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Ps. Kelvin T.L. Lim
Ya or! I think PG should take a cue from MP Eli Wong & step down for the sake of Jesus.
Firsty, in his role as SP & chairman of all CC committees (including BOD & Missions) & the co-signatory to all CC cheques, he has committed a gross conflict of interest by transferring RM 1.9 millions from CC to his personal ministry (CIM).
Worst still, PG (using his position or authority) has probably "coerced" the BOD into keeping quiet about the whole affair until God revealed it to the TTG group who saw this unrighteous act committed by the church leadership without the knowledge of the entire church.
I guess PG who is always a man who want to have "face" will never admit that he has done wrong (unless God forces him to do so), then the logical step for PG (if he still loves Jesus) would be to take a cue from MP Eli Wong by going on a 6 month sabbathical leave & to allow the Truth Commission (from AG Council) to investigate unhindered.
For ONLY the Truth will set us (Calvarites) free from all these months of wrangling ........
To those who are concerned
Write an email to our SP to consider a break by taking 6 months sabbathical leave to let the dust to settle down. Otherwise the problems will not be settled.
From Problem Solving Member
The Truth will set us free, BUT WHEN?
Dear Anonymous,
I do not think it is a good idea. You are only providing him names to axe out from the Membership roll. That's what the church leadership is looking out for now - ppl who don't support them. F.Ling's is paid full time to check on who is not attending church now. Many have received calls from her already.
From MONKEYS TO CAMELS
Scene: Sahara desert, North Africa.
6 men inside the tent absorbed in dubious activities
Outside is a camel crouching beside the tent.
Next to the camel is an ostrich with its head buried in the sand.
The camel slip one fore into the tent.
Then the other foot.
Then the head
Then, VOILA, the WHOLE camel is inside !!
The problem?
None of the 6 said no when the 1st foot entered
None of the 6 said no when the 2nd foot entered
None of the 6 said no when the head entered
AND WOULD YOU BELIEVE IT???!!!
NONE OF THE 6 SAID NO WHEN THE WHOLE CAMEL went in !!!
The tent is Calvary Church.
The Sahara Desert is the spiritually dry ground
The 6 ..... you voted them in!!
The camel ........??
He took 40 years
Now he controls almost every committee in CC.
Sad that a Christian church functions at such a low level of govenance.
SHEER SHAMELESSNESS.
A laughing stock to the secular.
The ostrich....those who cannot-see/won't-see,
let-God-be-God Calvarites.
Hello anonymous
PG doesnt need email from us. I believe he had been reading all the blogs and may also be a part of the blogs. So, what do you think??
He is having a problem that he is not willing to solve. He wants us to quarrel and argue, and he will sit back to enjoy and laugh at all the stupidity of his supporters..who still blindly support all his doing. He is most likely enjoying his ego treat...
Btw. I read STAR paper today, the UBS, AG, Switzerland Bank is ask to pay usd780 mil to US government. Some 17000 wealthy American hides account from Internal Revenue Service (IRS).
I brought this up because there is an interesting part I observed and read from the paragraph: is the client confidentiality, to which UBS remains committed, was never designed to protect fraudulant acts or identity of those clients. Please read STAR -Foreign News B7 dated today 20Feb2009.
I remember some comments in those ealier post regarding money transfer by SP, so in this context; how to continue to 'remain silent', somehow, some authority still can trace no matter what. I refer to the content of the current post now. So, any possibility to hide identity in any bank--looks like, the answer is "NO" from this news report.
A.W. Tozer
A modern day prophet
but since gone to be with the Lord
Once related his experience,
That he could be worshipping very quietly with some brethren
And the anointing of the Holy Spirit can be so very strong.
And at other times he would be in midst of an extremely loud and noisy worship,
And yet he senses absolutely no anointing.
There are preachers, though maybe not in Malaysia,
Who preach louder and louder
Because they are trying compensate for an ever thinning anointing.
And when the anointing is totally gone...
...They jump and stomp.
But, funnily, some Christians get impressed !!
I remember the good times I had in CC. I remember being genuinely hungry for God and I remember how the Sunday messages were life-changing. I remember how I used to be so excited on Saturday nights because I was going to church the next day. I remember sharing my life with fellow believers and I definitely remember confiding in my pastors and having them pray for me. I also remember the times I looked up to SP and the pastors and how much I cherished, loved, respected them. They were father-figures. I believed every word they said, thinking that they really loved me. I believed with all my heart, these were men and women who loved Jesus, who gave their lives for His cause, who would put others ahead of them. I trusted them. So many times in the past, people had said nasty things about CC, and me being naïve, brushed it aside and still stood by my church. I gave my pastors the benefit of the doubt. Until I saw for myself the brutality and abuse the church had caused. So many specifics which would blow anybody’s mind out! I don’t know which one was harder, seeing it or accepting it. No matter what the debate may be, I felt cheated and most of all, betrayed.
Pastors, if you are reading this, like a child, I trusted you. But now I know you’ve never really cared. You’ve seen me many times but I can be sure that you don’t remember my name. I should have known. A physical wound can heal within days, but the emotional and spiritual wound that you have caused me will take years to heal. It is almost torture to go back to any church now or to trust any pastors again or to give money because I don’t want to be in a vulnerable position again. But my God is still great and He will see me through. As difficult as it may be, I need to and I do forgive you. But my plea is to stop doing what you’re doing and come clean before God. He is gracious.
Dear young person, my heart aches to know the pain you are going through...keep persevering on and know that our God is Faithful and will restore to you what the enemy has tried to take away. Don't let people like SP and his family hinder you in achieving your full potential in God's Kingdom. God will duly judge them for stumbling so many young people like yourself. They will reap what they have sown. Vengeance is the Lord's.
Hi CT and Readers
I would like to share a testimony.
2 weeks ago, one of my close friend called me; and in our conversation; I was just sharing with her that Dr Jesus is a healer, and ask her to join me for Sunday Service. I told her that I will go to her house to pick her on Sunday, at 10am. And she said, she will come to my house instead.
Let me tell you, I decided that I should take her to SIB instead, I thank God, by faith, I did not call her for the next 6 days before the Sunday arrived. Finally, she arrived on time at my house on Sunday, and there we went to SIB, God is good, and He is faithful, He knows the desire of our heart, I was praying that the Lord will allow a salvation message to be preached and also to bring my friend a song of which she knows, true enough, the song -- Amazing Grace was sung and the salvation message was preached. Praise God, she finally received Christ on that Sunday.
God is real. I am one of the concerned members, Christ is alive. He is faithful. I claimed all victory for TTG. Amen
It is indeed sad to note that in the world people are always being caught up by externals eg. good looks, lifestyle, possessions, dressing, houses and cars and all the trappings of a good life, so much so that the church also gets sucked in as well.
So church leaders also expect to look good and be rewarded in monetary forms so as to appear good and that the sheep has kept them duly recognised for their labour among them.
Hence BOD has been subtly influenced to think that if they do not give in to PG's requests and expectations, they are being "bad stewards" of CC's moneys and depraving God's servants who rightly deserve it and all the perks and benefits. Why muzzle the ox? So these "servants" justify themselves to be amply rewarded but not all the church pastors though, only the elite and chosen ones!
Over the years BODs have spoilt PG and his family so much so they expected more and more so BODs have been giving and giving ... resulting in the sheep have been fleeced instead. It is all BAD MANAGEMENT OF CHURCH MONEYS.
We wonder why church moneys are not being rightly used for real genuine and worthy needs and for the expansion of God's kingdom and that all glory be given to God instead to certain church leaders under pretext of their own personal ministry (CIM).
These are all serious matters which concerned members have raised with pastors and BOD. Instead now agents of PG and current BOD have accused concerned members of wrongly bringing up issues and further rebuking TTG and prophesizing and quoting Scriptures that God will judge TTG and remove them from the fold for speaking up...and so call stumbling others.
Now they use various Scriptures to condemn TTG. Why can't they themselves ask what is the root cause of all the wrongs in CC? The agents accuse TTG of not having love and compassion for PG and BOD but wouldn't the same things they accuse TTG of doing apply likewise to PG and BOD?
These are the shepherd and leaders and why don't they look into the mirror themselves? Why deflect the wrongs to TTG?
Now it is the time for confession and repentance ... it is not for them to accuse TTG of bringing the issues in open, have they ever being open to discuss matters with members and worshippers... NEVER!They use the Constitution, EGM, criminal lawyers and forensic auditors to shut members and worshippers up.
Now will they open up and listen to concerned members? NO they will not unless due to a miracle they humble themselves before God right? Will a miracle take place ... only God knows and we earnestly pray that it will be soon.
God have mercy on Your church...
I think it is a victory for Truth that the 2 copycat blogs and its few commentors with bad english keep on harping on this blog...they obviously like reading CT as they keep quoting the comments found here. guess what, when people stumble, when young people stumble because of PG and family's evilness, these few commentors in the copycat blog blame the stumbled people instead of the ones who committed the sin, PG and family. Wow...I hope those of you who commented so childishly in the copycat blogs are not church leaders, otherwise it is so sad to see the type of teachings you advocate. Your comments just show that your hearts are full of deceit and anger. The more I read your two misguided blogs, the more convinced I am that PG and family are used by the devil to bring down CC. Thanks for opening my eyes!
I heard that the things that the other two blogs said are words that would not come out from true believing Christians.
They tried to lay a trap by asking the CT to close their blog and when they didnt, they blame them for causing the disunity in CC. How clever of them. Must have been great chess players before.
Dear Young person who is staying up at 3 pm and Karl and any young persons reading CT.
Please listen to the substance of what Ps. Kelvin T.L. Lim and I have shared numerous times on CT.
Please do not allow the Devil, the Accuser of the Brethren to begin to discredit some of God's legitimate ministries. Not all pastors have sinned and not all of the deacons are bad people (albeit their silence seems to condone obvious sin in CC!)
Please turn your eyes upon Jesus and the pain and hurts will evaporate. Let me encourage that last Saturday my 11 y o son was water baptised along with 65 other Orang Asli, Special Group (2 families - 12 pax), Chinese and Indian adults and children (35 kids). It was a scene from Heaven when a man from the Special Group can hug a 60 y o chinese man as they came under the baptism of water together. So do not give up hope. Revival is beginning to come to our land and we must keep in the faith. I am going back to China soon and if any young people want to email me. I will share more exciting details. God is always awesome and powerful.
Keep you eyes fixed on Jesus.
Be richly blessed,
AVOID CONFLICT OF INTEREST
Would you agree that the present BODs comprise people of impeccable integrity??
They have been elected by the congregation primarily to protect the interest of the congregation.
For example, to ensure that all tithes and offerings given are used appropriately
After all, all finances are given through the toil of the people
A good team of Deacons will give confidence to the congregation
that all will be well with the finances.
However, for the BODs to represent the congregation firmly
They must never be obligated in any way to any one.
If say, Mr. A is in absolute control of the Chruch.
And Mr. A give a scholarship worth RM 500,000 to Deacon’s B’s son,
.... Deacon B is now indebted and obligated to Mr. A.
If, one day Mr. A wants to transfer one million dollars from the Missions Funds into his Personal Ministry Fund, Deacon B will now find it very difficult to refuse Mr. A. because he is indebted to him.
Deacon B has now evolved into a YES-MAN.
The congregation now cannot trust the BOD any more and they lose their peace and become restless.
They begin to worry about what is going to happen to all the money they have given as tithes and offerings.
That is exactly what is happening in Calvary Church today.
WHAT BENEFITS CAN BODs POSSIBLY GET?
The following are possible- a contract job in CCC or church, scholarships (not known or open to the rest of the church) for children of the elite, received personal counselling etc.
WHAT SHOULD BE DONE
1. In the AGM the congregation should question whether any of the BODs have received any monetory benefits or benefit in kind through PG and the church.
2. Do not elect Deacons personally sieved by PG.
3. Elect deacons from an independent Nominating Committee elected by the congregation. They should meet as a committee and not meet individually with PG (as has been the practice. When PG sees members of the NC separately it allows for a lot of manipulation and misinformation by PG.). The people in the nominating committee should be free to discuss all candidates with everyone present.
4. A copy of the list of nominations for the BODs should be given to the Secretary of the BOD for processing and a copy be kept by the Chairman of the Nominating Committee ( who should, at all cost, not be PG). The list kept by the Chairman is important in case the list given to the Secretary of BOD is altered by people who have access to it (Don’t be surprised. There was an incident where PG changed the minutes of one of BODs meetings without the consent of the BODs. Nowadays, anything can happen in Calvary Church)
HOW YES-MEN ARE MADE
Deacons are elected by the congregation
..to represent them in the proper running of the church.
For the deacons to maintain full integrity they cannot receive
...PERSONAL BENEFITS of any kind
.. from the church while serving as a deacon.
A 250 million hospital was being built by the government in Nibung Tebal.
The whole building consisted of different parts which are to be subcontracted.
The concrete works (80 million), the sewage system (10 million),
the drainage system (10 million), electrical wiring (10 million),
surgical theatres (50 million), motorize beds (30 million),
equipment(40 million), miscellaneous (20 million).
Others – Pesticide treatment, landscaping.
During tendering, NONE of the sub-contacts should go to any of
the members of the Board of Management or their RELATIVES.
If that happens the Government would consider it a
...BREACH OF INTEGRITY
AND THE MEMBER WILL BE CHARGED FOR CORRUPTION.
WHY??
The money belongs to the people of the country.
The primary responsibility of members of the Board of Management
Is to ensure that the people’s money is properly spent.
What if the Chairman, using his influence,
quietly arranges for the landscaping contract be given to his Deputy’s company.
And lets say the Deputy accepts.
Then months later, the Chairman, in turn, wants the deputy to favour him
...in awarding the building of the surgical theatres to one of the Chairman’s relatives.
Can the Deputy now refuse the Chairman?
He can’t because he is trapped under an obligatory pack with the Chairman
Is the Deputy now free to be able to stand for the rights of the people??
NOOOOOOO !!.
For the rest of his service he resign to the fact that he has become a YES MAN to the Chairman.
In a similar sort of way,
The BOARD OF DEACONS is responsible
......to the congregation of Calvary Church,
The integrity of the BODs serves as a guarantee that the Church
will be run fairly and legally
Please, I am in no way alluding to any renovation or mega projects that Calvary Church may be involved with.
Nor am I saying here that there are YES MEN in BODs.
I am simply alerting the church as to how YES-Men, the scourge of any respectable organistion, come into existence.
The copycat blog not only copies, but its childish and evil commentors have even used my comment and changed the words. I don't think they are actually christians as they sound more like the anti-Christ, even to the point of wanting to cut Christians from the tree of life. Who are they to even comment on that? Do they think they are God? Do not worry though, God will surely judge them for they have blasphemed His Name.
Only once or twice did I log on to the other 2 blogs. I got so disgusted with what they say.
I went into CU today and they had 144 comments. Almost all "anonymous" with no identity.
What shocked me was the curses and vengence they call upon the TTG people. How could they be "genuine" Chistians to write like that and quoting Scriptures as a means of bringing condemnation.
How on earth the leaders of CC allow such blogs to continue!! ShockingII
May God have mercy upon all of the people who commented with such vicious curses and condemnation.
To the leaders of CC how long are you going to be silent and let this shameful fight goes on in cyberspace. Surely our SP's reputation is deteriorating every minute. This matter will not go away or be forgotten by SP's silence. The problem is festering and worms are coming out.
From what is happening in the other two blogs now, it is definitely SIN IN ITS WORST DISPLAY.
CC leaders who should come out and do something but they are just sitting back, shirking from their responsibilities and refusing to clear matters or submit to the Lord's wisdom and guidance.
Do you think God is not aware or that He will not act in His time?
Will He allow His Word to be misused and turned into lies and means to abuse His children, who have been redeemed by the precious blood of His Son? Who can bring a charge against the children of God? Who has made anyone lord over us? We are joint heirs of the Lord Jesus.
How can anyone deflect their sins to others? Each has to stand before God to give an account of his life before God.
Concerned members likewise constantly examine our hearts before God. We are fully aware that we stand to be corrected by the Father everyday. We only choose to speak out for what is right and truthful for the Body of Christ.
Would our Lord Jesus have condoned all these wrongs? Would our Lord Jesus not speak out against such abuses and deception of His children?
Concerned members have prayed, fasted, yielded to the Holy Spirit's leading and sought the Lord in all these matters. We will continue to do so as long as He leads us too.
We shall continue to stand up for the truth in Calvary Church.
MAGNETIC TRUTH
Mix iron filings with saw-dust
Spread them on a thin plate of glass
Place a strong magnet under one end of the glass
Voila, in an instant
...the magnet pulls all the iron filings to one end
Leaving the all the saw-dust aside in a separate pile.
TRUTH
.....Is like that.
All the people with an affinity for truth are all pull to one end
Leaving aside those who spurn truth
... or are unable to discern it.
An those with an affinity for truth
......are accused of dividing the church.
There is only one way
To bring the two groups together.
All should strive to live in truth.
Remember one more thing,
Truth never changes its position.
YOU HAVE TO !!
Hi Dear Completely Shocked,
I agree with you fully. These people keep accusing the concerned members. Yay I ask them how many souls had been brought to Christ by this group of people? They had been 'cursing'.
Anyway, I would like to share about my expereince of sharing Christ in the workplace. One day, I share Christ with one of my new colleagues; at the end of it, I gave her a booklet on Kowing God. She went home and share with her husband, however, the next day, her husband stomped into my office and was very angry and threw the booklet at me. He remarked i should not shared christianity with her! well, at that moment, i was very cool, i must said this must be the fruit of the spirit. i did not react or got angry but i just gently take back the booklet.
He, however, at some point drove the wife and throw the bible into a river.
Praise be to God, both his wife and him now already received Christ and happily serving in a church. I am sharing this testimony so as to let the other group of people know that; if you think we are 'a non-believer', you had grieved God's heart and hurt our Lord Jesus Christ.
The fact that, we, sharing Christ with our colleagues and friends in the market place was indeed a challenge; without the grace of God, do you think the churches will have people that is call the 'church'?
Our pastors and BOD in calvary church are having very 'contented'
environment, it seemed everything is so self sufficient to them however.
Dear All,
Stay away from the blogs or sites that offense you, instead focus on the blogs or sites that truly edifying you. More so where you can be the source of truth and encouragement.
God bless! Stay healthy and be encouraged.
THE TRUE CHURCH
In the midst of the present situation at Calvary, my concern is for the congregation caught in the "Twlight Zone". I know many are hurting, yet there seems to be no National Christian Organisations or respected Senior Pastors of other churches who are willing to lend a hand publically. Definately, a word from them would be an encouragement - something to hold on to until the dust settles. Perhaps this is a reflection of the State of the Church in Malaysia.
But perhaps this may be an indication that the concept of the Church as we understand made up of Pastors, Organisation Structure etc may not be what the True Church is. This is becoming more and more evident as people in the USA and Europe leave churches and set up smaller house groups without any formal structure. Everyone in the group are effective "Royal Priests" - ministering accoring to the gift the Lord has blessed them with. Please read Revolution by George Barna for more on this issue.
Here is a spiritual thought for you to ponder...
True Church by Kokiche Kurosaki
When the Lord walked on earth, He praised the "great faith" of a centurion and balmed the "little faith" of the disciples. He acknowledged the faith of a sinful woman, a leper, a woman suffering with a flow of blood, and a blind man by saying, "your faith has saved you."
In each case no doctrines, institutions or ceremonies were involved. Those who simply relied wholly on the Lord Himself were accepted, their sins forgiven, and thus they were saved.
The only condition was that they have faith in Christ personally -- that they engage in a living contact with Him. Where there was this ''faith,'' there was the beginning of the Ekklesia. Through koinonia they became one with Christ, and He bacame their Lord.
In a word, Christianity has its center in God Himself and in the fellowship men have with Him.
This fellowship of God with believers through the Spirit is the answer to the question of what faith is. It is also the answer to what the true Ekklesia is.
Beloved - focus on Christ and you will find the "True Church" and you will be liberated from the present "Twlight ZOne"
Vijay
PORK CAUSES CANCER !
People are complaining about words coming over the pulpit:
jump in the lake, leave the church, take another bus, you’ll get leprosy.
Now hear this!!
Once a pastor announced“PORK CAUSES CANCER!”
Much to the chagrin of the medical fraternity.
The medical people advised the pastor that
...this has not yet been proven And, if was true, the government would have culled all the pigs in the country
.... and inform the rest of the world to stop producing ham, bacon and sausages.
But the pastor and spouse were adamant and arrogant.
Their belief was influenced by a non-medical American pentecostal pastor
They said that they would prefer to believe a “godly man”.
...rather than qualified medically trained people.
WHAT SPIRITUAL PRIDE & ARROGANCE !!
This where many godly men fall.
God anoints them in ONE AREA of ministry.
When successful they deceive themselves into thinking they will be successful every where else.
Lucifer thought the same way.
Why not be like Paul, 2Co 11:30
“If it is right to boast, I will boast of the things of my weakness”.
God never gives all abilities to only ONE person...NEVER !!
He always spread the giftings around so that no one can become boastful
Notice how many “to another” is mentioned in the following verse:
1Co 12:9-10 ...and to another faith by the same Spirit; and to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; and to another workings of powers, to another prophecy; and to another discerning of spirits; and to another kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues.
IRONICALLY THAT PENTECOSTAL PASTOR DIED OF CANCER A FEW YEARS AGO.
Some pastors really need an annonting of a double portion of humility to set them walking straiight.
YES-MEN or NO-MEN in BODs ?
I am not alluding, at all, that all the BODs are yes-men,
I am extremely optimistic that at least one is not - she is a woman.
The congregation elected them because they thought they were godly people
Able able to stand up for Christ and the congregation
... against EVERY APPEARANCE of evil (1Th 5:22)
(Not just evil BUT ALL APPEARANCE OF EVIL),
To ensure that Calvary Church IS run fairly, justly, legally
with a level of integrity that does not cause doubt but takes away doubt in people.
No one is really concern whether you say yes or no.
There is concern only when you say yes when it should be no
And no when you should say yes.
Mat 5:37 But let your word be, Yes, yes; No, no.
For whatever is more than these comes from evil.
If you have failed in these purposes, at least be a gentlement. Step aside and make way for others who can do a better job. Don't hog the position for your own personal reasons.
Gal. 5:12(NIV).
If Christ is the center of our lives; those people who walked passed us can even smell the fragrance of Christ in us, this is a simple faith that I have. Let me share this, I have a friend who was having quite a messy relationship with her 'boyfriend'; one fine day, she turned up in my house broken and with bruises all over her body, without informed me in advance-she turned up in my house, this is a situation where she did not really know me but she knew that I am a christian, attending church and had shared christ with her before when we she was only a visitor of her 'boyfriend' who was renting a room in the same house with me.
On the day when she came to my house, she began to share some very personal affairs of hers and at that moment I can only shared her the comfort of Christ and to let her stay in my house for a day or two to rest. I must thank God, because of our Christ, and His work in our lives that, a person who is bruised and hurt can even come seek shelter with me who was then just an acquaintant to her..She accepted Christ on the day when she was with me. And now actively serving God in another church.Amen
I am sharing this because I want the other 'group' who cursed the concerned members to know that if You are a true Christian, the people will know.
Jesus is at work. I have a 'close contact'- who called me one day for help. As usual, I was a bit stunned at that moment..why on earth is he calling me instead of someone else? what can I help and do? The reason I was puzzled was because, I never receive call and never contacted him all the while.
Anyway, after having listened to his problem, I was helpless but at the same time, I know that his problem was too huge for me but not Christ. At the end of it, I only shared that it is impossible for anyone of us to be able to help him but Christ alone can, because God has a reason to allow this to happen, and at that moment I know that truly, it is God alone and alone, I finally prayed with him to receive Christ and to assure him that God can do all things-- He is all possible God.
I thank God that, God help overcome his anxiety and fear over his problem and his problem was finally resolved through God's help and his family now happily serving God in another church.
I am sadden, it is another church but not calvary church.
GODLY BODs
If you have have been extended any benefits,
...monitory, business contracts or personal counselling,
you are CAUGHT in a position of indebtedness to that person.
There is now a conflict of interest
... and you have compromised your ableness to represent the congregation.
Dan 5:5 In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote:
Dan 5:25-27 MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN.
Meaning: God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
Be gracious and step down.
Even the grace of Jesus has an ending.
4 A FAMILY
If my family earns about 65K/mth
from Calvary, I too won’t want to retire.
Excluding perks, mind you.
I’ll hang on, man...TTG or no TTG !
But Calvarites are so generous.
Must be about 90% are in the filthy rich category
They really don't mind.....I guess.
A FAMILY AGM, once in 40 years !!
Breakdown in communication has been blamed for the following:
International conflicts, racial disharmony, divorce in marriage and the generation gap.
I have always encourage an atmosphere where all the family members get a chance to voice their opinions.
EVEN THE YOUNGEST. WHILE YET A TODDLER, HAD RIGHTS !
Butin Calvary Church, rules or, rather unfair rule, govern AGMs.
I am amazed at the shamelessness and childishness of things that happen.
They give 2 minutes to explain something controversial. Ha! Ha!
At sharp 2 minute a legalistic guardian (was it a pastor?) switches you off.
Says to me, PG, you just don't want to listen.
Even at international conferences we get 15 minutes.
As the chairman, PG, you are allowed to execise some discretion.....No?
If the question is good for the church you can give more time ...no?
Mind you, good question may not necessarily be a comfortable for PG you know.
But then, knowing PG, he resorts to only a single strategy all these years.
SHUT THEM UP AND SHUT THEM OUT !!
Why?? Scared of the truth?
He should know by now it is impossible to suppress truth.
Its like trying to submerge a 100 coloured balloons under water
.....in a large bathtub.
The TRUTH WILL ALWAYS SURFACE EVENTUALLY!
Come on.
In 2009, lets have our first Family-like AGM in 40 years!
PG, you are, you know, running out of time and chances to redeem yourself.
To : Calvary Today and All
Let us all commit and pray for people in cu/ck now..
Our Father in Heaven, we bring before this group of people who had now gone overboard playing with the Spirit of God, crucifying the concerned members, manipulating with the testimony and words of God, Lord, we pray in the name of Jesus, bind all form of deceit that is in their tongues and hearts, Lord we pray that they would not test You and cause themselves to fall into the hands of the evil ones. Lord forgive them and deliver them from all curses and spell. Let your goodness overflow their hearts.
Father, may your mercies and grace be all our sufficiency, deliver our pastors, especially our Sp and family, BOD and leadership from the spiritual slumber, help them to rise and shine for You, cleanse them and deliver them of their transgression. Break every yoke of bondage, let there be renew spirit and joy of salvation in them once again. Restore them and restore the house of God, the church.
Lord we claim your power and your dorminion over calvary church and the people in the church O Lord. Let the light of Jesus shine once again. Deliver the vengeance spirit of cu/ck. Forgive them. Let not this prayer be manipulated and twisted by their tongue again. Lord, we want to see your glory at the end of it all. In Jesus mighty name I pray and ask. Amen
THE HEIST IN CC THAT GOT AWAY?
1st Scenario:
Its 5.00 am in front of the Bangsar Baru Maybank
A tow-truck and a small lorry screeches to a halt
Four men in dark attire jumps out
An ATM is quickly towed into the lorry
The vehicles speeds off into the dark.
Six months later the four men were caught.
And they return the ATM with everything intact.
Questions:
Was a crime committed?
If they become Christians and repent, will they be forgiven?
If guilty, will they still be jailed?
2nd Scenario:
Money was taken from a church account
nad put into somebody’s personal ministry account.
The person was caught.
Months later the money was returned.
Question:
Was a crime (CBT) committed?
If they are Christians and repent, will they be forgiven?
Will they have to be jailed?
John 15:7
If ye abide in me,
and my words abide in you,
ye shall ask what ye will,
and it shall be done unto you.
Father God,
This is verse You gave to me yesterday, and as I meditate on it You have shown me the blessings that is in store for us.
I thank you for Your promises to us.
Lord, when You said,
"if ye abide in me,....."
Lord,
I know when TTG stands for TRUTH, we abide in You.
I know when TTG stands for TRANSPARENCY,
we abide in You
I know when TTG stands for GOOD GOVERNANCE,
we abide in You
I know when TTG stands for JUSTICE,
we abide in you
I know when TTG stands for RIGHTEOUSNESS,
we abide in You.
Lord, Your word said,
and my words abide in you,
ye shall ask what ye will,
and it shall be done unto you.
LORD, I ask for the followings;
LORD, I want to pray for Dr.Lum
as he has been requested to appear before a Panel of Inquiry at DP this Sat morning, 28th Feb.
LORD, I pray for Your presence upon all those present that YOU will rule in that inquiry.
Take control of every tongue that will speak forth TRUTH.
Jesus take your RIGHTFUL place and REIGN in their midst.
I ask for Your wisdom, understanding, patience, discernment and most of all,
love during the meeting.
I ask for protection and for covering upon the whole inquiry
In Jesus Precious Name.
Amen
Dr. Lum, I will be praying for you. Go in God's confidence and speak the truth. God is always on the side of truth.
Dr Lum,
We can be praying for you but we really question on how the independent body is set up. Is this done according to the church's constitution?
May you go to the Inquiry in peace and with alot of patience and joy.
I really wonder if the Inquiry will be of any use.
Dr. Lum,
I am having an all night prayer meeting tonight from friday 8:30 to Sat 5:00 pm and I will remember and cover you in prayers. Share what is honest and truthful and the Holy Spirit will be your cover. Do not fear what "man can do but rather fear what God can do".
God bless you richly,
Dr. Lum Siew Heng
I will be there with you (leterally)
and for you
and will praying for you in our Home Fellowship tonight.
For truth, transparency and good governance in all churched in Malaysia.
Dr. Lum,
May God be with you. Let the truth prevail. Fear God and not man.
Hi, I hv tried to post this not once, but twice on the other blog but they have cancelled my posts...I am not sure why as all I wanted was to get answers, just yes or no...if it's really a no, shouldn't they then hv posted my comments? Unless it means it is a yes.
1. Is Senior Pastor Prince Guneratnam paid RM25k per month as salary? Are his wife, son, daughter and son-in-law all paid above RM10k each per month as salary?
2. Was Azalea's flight to USA paid for by church missions fund?
3.Was Jim and Pam's education also paid for by church offering?
I asked the other blog to just provide me with yes or no answers to the above questions...no explanation needed. But they didn't even bother posting my comments. Wonder why.
Dear Questions,
Maybe they dont want the church to know about it.
Dear Jesus
Our father in heaven, we want to thank you for calling Dr Lum to be your faithful steward; we thank you that Lord, You had poured forth your anointing upon him as a deacon in Calvary church for the last 11 and so years and for his faithfulness and love in serving YOU. Lord each week, as a worshipper in calvary church, I saw him, faithfully serving You even as a usher with smiling face and joy and full of humble attitude even though he is a medical practitioner. Lord, at this juncture we pray for your mighty hand to stretch forth upon him as he was called for such 'so call independent inquiry' on Saturday.
Lord, our heart feel with sorrow and pain for such unfair treatment imposed upon him that he is to appear before 3 persons from the church who had not even served as deacons before.
Lord, we pray that you cover Dr Lum and others with your love that God your love, grace; mercy; shall prevail. Grant him and others your favor.
We lay before you, Dr LUM and others, so that YOUR name will be maginfy for the work YOU have done thru them.
In Jesus name I pray. Amen
Dear Dr. Lum,
I have taken your advice and have spent much time on the word of God. I am encouraged and shall uphold you in prayer throughout this ordeal.
May the peace of God be with you always.
1. I am shock, why is Dr Lum being question?
2. The main actor in this 'movie' is SP..Why is it now that the 'substitute' being question instead of SP.
3. Is this like a political arena where the people in power trying to distract the attention to focus on the issues and person invovled?
4. Why are there emails sent by leaders of calvary church about cu/ck being forwarded to non-calvarites and calvarites to read?
Hello 'Question' , I fully agree with you, all your questions very valid, there had been talks both within and outside the church with regards to all your questions but no one from chruch dare to rep;ly.. If they are honest, why is it so difficult to reply? And why is it so difficult to publish your comment the other side of the blog?
Dear Jesus
How great is our God, sing with me how great is our God..sing on--everybody.
Yes, The best is yet to come..we proclaim it in the name of Jesus.
Thank you Lord Jesus, for your assurance and peace. Best is yet to come..Amen
yeahlo, since they keep accusing the CT of being malicious etc, they should take this chance to answer some of these questions to clear the air and proof CT wrong. But if they don't even want to answer the questions, can they blame the church members for being doubtful and suspicious of the church leadership?
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