Calvary Today has surpassed the 100,000 hits on its blog pages this morning. For this we have to give our awesome God all the Glory and Honour for indeed He has guided us and given us wisdom since CT's inception to reach where CT is today. "For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourself fighting against God." (Acts 5:38-39)
It has been an amazing run since CT's birth less than 5 months ago. When CT was prayerfully and officially launched on 6 September 2008 in the "Upper Room" in the presence of 40-odd Calvary Church members, little did any one present then, imagined that this humble blog will be read, not only by Calvary Church members but the Christian community within and without Malaysia.
As many of you know, CT was actually born out of necessity. Prior to the start-up of CT by the core TTG members, the church members were kept informed of the developments in church via emails. As the mailing list swelled over time, it became tedious and time consuming to dispatch information through email. This is because the emails have to be sent out in small numbers to avoid ending up in spam folders, commonly featured in email programmes. The idea of a blog was the result of much brain-storming, debates and prayers among the core TTG members. "For the Lord gives wisdom, and from His mouth come knowledge and understanding. He holds victory in store for the upright, He is a sheild to those whose walk is blameless, and He guards the course of the just and protects the way of His faithful ones." (Proverbs 2:6-8)
Whilst we are aware that the identity and credibility of the people behind any blog is of utmost importance, this was not an area of concern in the case of CT. Many, if not all, of its readers from Calvary Church know who the core TTG members are. Even the pastors and deacons know who they are. They were the ones who spoke out in AGMs and EGMs, the ones who wrote to the pastors and deacons, the ones who held discussions with the deacons and the ones who penned most of the posts (not comments) on this blog. Contrary to CT’s critics, the people behind CT are not unidentified dubious characters but long-serving Church leaders, teachers, professionals and people of standing in the corporate world and above all, people who have nothing personal to gain from all this.
The CT blog has also evolved from a simple amateurish blog in its early days into a seemingly professional website today, all without any professional help. For this, the group gives all glory to God for He has made this possible despite the fact that none of the group members are real IT savvy people.
CT is here to stay and will continue until such time God tells the core TTG group to stop. When the online debates heated up feverishly in mid-December with the publishing of the 2-part interview with Dr Lum, the group started on plans to cool things down to prepare for a peaceful Christmas, followed by a prayerful January.
However, things do not always turn out the way we plan. Thanks, largely to Why So Long and Charles who both came out with their own copycat blogs, CT’s hits counter went ‘red-hot’. All non-followers of CT, who logged into Why So Long and Charles’ blogs, also went into CT to read for themselves “the other side of the story”. This resulted in one of the highest hit rates ever recorded in the 5-month history of CT.
When the two copycat blogs were being publicized via emails, many Calvarites voiced their concerns to the core TTG members regarding the real intentions of the said two individuals, who hitherto, still remains unidentified but who proclaims to advocate transparency! Concerns were whether these individuals were indeed Calvarites or outsiders trying to split our church or some religious guys with sinister motives or merely just a couple of retirees with too much time on their hands. Of course, there were also much talk that they are a pair of siblings working for the church.
Anyway, it does not matter for our God is Great! He certainly knows how to turn a ‘concerned’ situation around for His children. Like PG has preached before, the King has one more move. And so, our hit counter continues to turn.
So has CT achieved its purpose? We leave it to you to decide. But it has certainly played a role in bringing RM1.1m in CIM and another RM0.4m in CARED back to the Missions Fund. It has helped many Calvarites become better stewards of God’s financial blessings and many in the missions field and many poor and needy have been blessed by the generosity of Calvarites who have taken up the temporary role of being their own Missions Directors.
It has awaken many up and coming pastors out there and their deacons as well that they need to keep guard of their own spiritual lives and be transparent in all they do. As someone said, Calvary Church has become a fountainhead church of sorts in that what has happened in Calvary Church, is a lesson to all pastors to be righteous and upright in the area of transparency and governance in their own churches and lives. It is also a reminder to men and women who are elected by church members to represent them that they must execute their duties with integrity, always endeavouring to fear God and not fear the men of God.
For those of you who are wondering where all these is leading to or when this madness is going to end, we want to say that God is in control of the situation in our church. He sees all your hurts and your pain, He will put right where there is wrong, He will restore and heal our church. And His name will be glorified! Ecclesiastes 3 teaches us that “there is a time for everything and a season for every activity under Heaven”. Romans 8.28 tells us that “in all things, God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose”.
For the rest of you who are concerned about the current "quietness" and seeming inactivity on the part of the TTG group, be assured that the group has not abandoned the cause. Several prophecies have been given to the group to "take up the role of Mary and abandon the role of Martha". The Lord has assured the group that this is His battle and we are now to allow Him to take control of the situation for the time being. This is so that when this whole saga is over, all glory and honour goes to God and to no one else.
So, let us just be still and know that He is God! :)
The TTG Group
171 comments:
Congratulations CT.
Looks like God has given you a 100,000 Ang Pow for Chinese New Year.
Congratulations CT and Praise God!
You're right, due to the revelation of CT the past 5 months, it has certainly played a role in bringing RM1.1m in CIM and another RM0.4m in CARED back to the Missions Fund in CC.
Blessed Chinese New Year bros & sis and God bless.
christ follower....
what happen to dr lum?he was suppose to answer the questions raise by bod.its already more than three weeks we have not hear from him.has he chicken out.
At the end of the day we're all accountable to the Almighty God. However there must be righteousness seen in everyone. The blog has opened up all Pastors like me not to lord over the flock but be humble. After all Jesus was just a carpenter's son . He rode on a donkey and ate with the sinners.
Well, happy 100,000th hit!
Praise and thank God for Calvary Today and TTG!!
Don't worry abt the 2 copycat blogs...from what I hv read, there is basically no substance or credibility at all. If anything, after reading their sites, it only proves to show that there is something seriously wrong with our church leadership. The creators of these 2 blogs are not only not transparent, but I have posted a few comments there which were not displayed by the creators just because I had a different view point from them. A total lack of transparency and bravery as the creators keep coming up with different excuses to not reveal who they are. If they are really fighting for the truth, why are they such cowards?
Thank you, Calvary Today for doing what is right.
Dear TTG,
I hv decided to stop going for sunday services in Calvary as I can no longer accept any sermons being preached by the pastors. But I will keep on supporting the fight for truth, transparency and governance and you all are in my prayers. Good will indeed triumph over evil and I am still convicted that if PG does not repent and ask for forgiveness from the church members, then he should not be allowed to continue leading the church.
By now I am sure many would have known that the Finance Governance Taskforce has published their scope, objective and to a certain extent timeline for the various activities to be done. [I am looking forward for the Constitution Review Committee to do likewise.]
This is indeed a positive move which agurs well not only for transparency and good governance but also a platform for positive changes so that the church can move forward.
Could I encourage the Teh Tarik Group use this channel and give your co-operation to these Committees ... provide your feedback, input and opinions/assessment. These Committees are the correct platforms instead of this blog (or for that matter the blogs under Why So Long & Charles). I am afraid if you choose to spurn these Committees, it merely shows perhaps your insincerity for seeking changes within Calvary Church so that God's work can prosper - other than always calling/insisting for SP's resignation which is really not the solution.
Stop being suspicious ... refrain from unfounded allegations and conclusions ... again I urge ... use the Committees - this is the more appropriate and correct way. What say you?
And as I mentioned earlier, I await the Constitution Review Committee's efforts to show us transparency and good governance ...
Dear Discernment Needed
The TTG group does not spurn the Committees you mentioned. None of the TTG members has been invited to sit on those committees and none of them has been invited to provide feedback or give any inputs. So the fault does not lie with the TTG members but with the powers which form those committees.
Additionally, if you look carefully at the appointed committee members, you will see clearly that they are not independent at all. For example, how can the past auditor and present church treasurer sit on the Finance Governance Taskforce? Who in this world would be so silly to investigate their own mistakes and find fault with themselves?
The Constitution Review Committee is another sham. The TTG group's proposed resolution for the recent EGM to consider the formation of a Constitution Review Committee was thrown out by the deacons. Then at the EGM, the deacons announced their proposal to form the very same committee (that the TTG group proposed) but with a very limited scope which does not even address the issues which are of concern to members. Again, none of the TTG members were invited to participate on the committee. If you recall, one member, during the EGM, posed a question whether the deacons will include some TTG members on the committee but our deacon, Patrick answered "Who are the TTG members?" He had suddenly at that point in time, lost his memory despite a few meetings with them earlier. He also conveniently forgot that the only reason, that EGM was called for, was to address issues raised by the TTG group.
Todate, the deacons and SP have not disputed any of the so-called unfounded allegations raised in the blog.
We wonder who is being insincere in seeking truth and transparency? It is because the TTG are totally sincere in wanting to seek changes in Calvary Church for God's work to prosper that they spend much time, effort and money in this cause. As we mentioned before, none of the TTG members stand to benefit anything personally out of this.
Oh please, everyone with half a cyber-brain knows that 100,000 is just the amount of hits your blog has received and not 100,000 persons reading the nonsense in your blog.
Your groupie alone would probably account for 80% of the recurring hits anyway!
So if you are so secure in your crusade, why do you block off any comments referring to the alternative blog.
Hi RC2, why so angry and aggressive? peace, brother...if you are so sure that what you believe in is right, why bother coming to this site and get provoked? probably coz you know that the issues raised by TTG are true...
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
The Crusader
The Kingdom of Heaven
1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.
1Co 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
1Co 11:18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
1Co 11:21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
1Co 11:22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.
1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
1Co 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
1Co 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
The Crusader
The Kingdom of Heaven
Hey RC2, like someone mention before, you're a Real Clown Too (RC2). I read & re-read the post again but CT didn't say it got 100,000 persons reading. It jus say 100,000hits on the blog pages.
Not sure if CT block any alternate blog but i know McDonalds never advertise for KFC & Maybank never advertise to promote CIMB etc. Simple logic, friend.
i think TTG group mostly businessmen and professionals so they are smart ppl. also, their reputation at stake if they simply accuse without basis. So lets see if PG & deacons can prove the allegations wrong.
I wrote to WSL and Charles’ blog on 12-1-09 as follows:-
"Who are you both? Are u our church members? Are you Charles the same Charles who worked in church before together with your parents.
Maybe, you two should tell us your background so we know how credible you are, i mean, most members are educated and some "bigshots", They won't listen to,say a gardener or security guard altho nothing wrong being in such employment.
Also your article "Be still and Know.. of poison prayers"
i think you shouldn't twist bible scripture. You replace "that I am God" with "of Poison prayers". God is NOT of poison prayers. God listens to righteous prayers,so nothing for us to worry how people pray, because God won't listen if they are of wrong motive.”
They never publish my comments, that’s transparency of WSL and Charles. And they got cheek to say in their blog we can shake their hands in church.
They never say who they are, no one know their face so how to shake hands with them? They want me to put out my hand in mid air and say "Hi Why So Long"? Members will think I've gone cuckoo.
Are the other two blogs administered by agents of PG?
Why gave back the RM1.0M and RM0.4M money when it was not wrongly taken from the missions fund in the 1st place?
Why set-up a Financial Governance Task Force now when 30plus years PG exercised control?
Are there misused and abused of funds?
Calvarites, continue to pray and ask questions.
Don't let the leadership hide all the wrongdoing.
Rise up for Christ who is righteous, just and holy.
Dear Calvarites,
CT hitting 100000 is a milestone for Christian fraternity, both in and out of Malaysia.
I have 3 thoughts to share.
1. Christianity is about truth. Truth is not about hiding the ugliness found in churches today. Ugliness in issues has all to do with the people in the church. More often, leadership is the cause. Directly said, leaders are the cause.
2. Christianity is about openness. Jesus said Christians are light of the world and the salt of the earth. Light can be shone into dark places to expose the dark practices. Salt is used to prevent decay. The church as an organisation should be an open book for everyone to see. If leaders in Calvary church have nothing dark to hide and desire to prevent corrupt practices, they can open all the books for any worshipper to see. Don't turn down the Truth and Reconciliation Committee Hong Meng had proposed way back last year.
3. Christianity is about body of Christ. Body of Christ consists of all believers. So, it is inclusive. For last many years, Pastors and deacons in Calvary Church are more Pharoah-centred and Pharisee-centred, rather than Christ-centred. They just dropped members from serving without talking to them. They just used their position to exercise their power. They don't care to invite the TTG to talk things over. But, from the pulpit, they throw condemning spirit. They are absolutely not ministers of the new covenant. Where is love like Christ? Where is reconciliation like Christ came to reconcile men to God and gave us a ministry of reconciliation?
I suggest that come this AGM a neutral chairman be appointed. PG is too much a dictator to do the job. No more just 2 questions as a mean to control members from speaking up in truth and in love. Let there be a big debate. All of us are matured enough to have faith in God for what is true in the bible. Men are not to manipulate; Holy Spirit is to lead us into all truths.
I urge the leaders to open your tight fist of control. Let there be openness in the whole church work. As believers, we can let Holy Spirit to work in us and through us.
Amen
Yes, I too have posted some comments on the 2 other blogs but they have barred my comments eventhough there were nothing offensive abt it.
They keep saying that TTG and supporters of truth, transparency and governance only represent a minor portion of the church and that the BOD will only answer to church members but I tell you that I am a voting church member but the BOD did not bother to entertain me. I have also spoken to other voting and associate members in CC and many of them feel the same way and want truth and transparency in the church.
So, it is not just a minority group who wants a change in the church, many of us are voting and associate members and we WANT to see accountability from PG and BOD instead of excuses after excuses. For too long this has dragged on and PG has yet to even admit his mistakes. Why??? Does he not care for the sheep? All issues raised by TTG have not even been answered by him.
Someone commented in the copycat blog that he is angry that the CIM funds have been returned to missions because he has personally given to CIM to support PG. May I ask how much he has given to CIM? Is it as much as the RM1.2m that we the members have given to missions but was sneakily transferred to CIM?? Shouldn't we be even more angry that the money we gave to missions was transferred to CIM for PG to fly business class all over the world, ie. the USA in particular???
The other 2 blogs are mere mouthpiece of SP. He dares not come out to confront the truth and uses agent to represent him.
The 2 blogs kept repeating that TTG group are just throwing accusations and malicious remarks about SP. So, they accused HM, KC and Dr Lum. Let's be fair. KC boldly spoke up during AGMs and EGMs. He went to see and talk to SP personally. HM boldly wrote about WHAT ACTUALLY TRANSPIRED - FACTS AND NOT MADE UP STORIES. He signed off using his name to authenticate REAL ISSUES and REAL EVENTS. How about Dr Lum? The 2 interviews recorded EVENTS ACTUALLY TAKEN PLACE. Here, I didn't see BOD refuting them. PG did not say a word. The Administrators of the 2 alternative blogs only condemned them but dare not say a word about the ACTUAL EVENTS ANDS ISSUES.
They tried to discredit wonderful brothers like KC, HM and Dr Lum so that what they said cannot stand. See how wicked they can be..just discredit the persons but totally ignored the truth of the actual issues brought up about the church and PG.
All core members of TTG are totally visible to most Calvarites, including the leadership. But, the administrators of the alternative blogs are hiding..just like PG and BOD. They kept their identity and refused to come out and talk truth.
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
The Crusader
First, PG used the pulpit to demonise the TTG group in his sermons. It didn't work. TTG group are not coward but believers who stand up for the Lord in the church where SP is doing his own will and has lost the anointing from God. He uses loud voice instead of allowing Holy Spirit to move.
Next, the 2 copycat blogs used the same strategy to demonise the TTG group by names. They have no issues to talk about. They are not only coward but behave like small boys simply shouting foulplay without basis.
Praise be to God! The TTG group are matured Christians who cannot be intimidated. They just trust God and move step by step as the Lord shows the way.
I notice the other CopyCat blogs never stop scolding HM, KC and other TTG members. They accused TTG of spreading accusations against cc and PG.
No point arguing. Why not the BOD opens up all BOD minutes, Mission Committee minutes, all Extended Ministries minutes and their complete accounts (with payment vouchers, supporting documents and bank statements as HM suggested in the Truth and Reconciliation Committee set-up). Members can see for themselves and make their conclusion.
Next AG can step in and take over the running of cc and examine all the said documents and come out with a truth report.
Finally, let the court and police to decide if leaders in cc and AG cannot use the bible as a basis for decision. Then, we will know who is accusing who.
Apostle Paul had laid down a scriptural basis for resolving Christian and church conflicts.
Commenters in the alternative blogs accused HM, KC and Dr Lum of splitting the church by raising up issues about CC and SP.
Shocking that we have such believers - believers of leader and not believers of Christ.
Who are the cause of the transfer of RM200K a year from Mission Funds to CIM? HM, KC and Dr Lum could not have done it. Logic will tell you that mission committee, BOD, PO and SP are responsible. So, they are the cause because this is one of the root cause of the present state of affairs in CC.
Space here is too small to list down all other causes of church split committed by SP and BOD. Let all who read the blogs to do some homework and bring your findings to the coming AGM.
In my devotional reading I came across this prayer:
O GOD, GRANT ME THE STRENGTH OF HEART
OF MOTIVE, AND OF WILL
TO FALTER NOT BUT DO MY PART
YOUR PURPOSE TO FULFILL
All of us who who yearn for the truth, transparency and good governance to be implemented in CC let us be encouraged - We can make a difference if we keep true to our calling at a time like this.
JL
yes, shallow argument is the correct word to use for the copycat blogs. thus far, their articles and comments are very childish, flimsy and shallow..it's quite a laugh actually especially when you read some of the excuses they come up with to defend PG's wrongdoings. It's a laugh but at the same time, still sad as these few ppl who started this copycat blogs are so deceived and arrogant and are being used to create confusion. We church members know better.
Frankly like I mentioned in CU, I would have preferred the constitution (of members) of the committees to be a little different in that some members should be from "the other side" although I did highlight that some of the Teh Tarik Group should not be included since it is my opinion that they lack sense, control & objectivity. Having said this, a committee consisting members of "both sides" would have been preferred. The reason I say this is simply that it would be good for a couple of members who feel strongly about changes to be in a committee to deal with these changes. However, since the existing members have been appointed, I accept the decision of the church as it IS a step in the right direction.
Nevertheless I do not think it proper or accurate or fair to dismiss upfront the independence and sincerity of the committees (to work towards change) - there are some members who are in my opinion quite independent minded and have a "good head on their shoulder"; the others ... they perhaps by no means "blind SP followers" ... hey, they may the ones who will surprise us!
You must be aware that just because you are not a member of the Committee does not mean that you cannot play an active and meaningful role. You can! The committee (at least the Finance Governance Taskforce) has openly souhgt the participation of the members, including concern worshippers. Like I have commented more than once ... my encouragement is to use these committees notwithstanding your perceived shortfalls that they may have ... these committees are the best platforms for ALL of us to move forward as a church ... you have already been invited ...
In the meantime, I would like to take this opportunity to wish everyone a Blessed 2009 and especially to those who are celebrating the Chinese New Year in one form or other! Warm Regards.
I'm just an observer worshipping some 150km away from your Church.A few years back my family and i attended a Church Growth in Korea where PG was our Spiritual Leader representing Malaysian Churches. But one evening we were supposed to have dinner with him in a restaurant but because we were a bit late because of unforseen circumstances he angrily burst out to cancell our gathering of 40 people. I was shocked that night of such uncalled behaviour of a man suppose to be Malaysian Churches Head. Since the incident i've very low opinion of so called 'the annointed one'
Dear Calvarites
The key people raising issues of the calvary church and PG know what they are doing. I trust God for them.
Dr Lum has been with cc for 40 years and served as Life group leader, missions committee and deacons. He is a professional doctor and recently graduated in Master of Divinity.
KC, as I know, served in Family Life Dept (closed by PG) together with former deacon Prof. Paul Nah and is CEO of large conglomerate. He gave generously to church and BCM.
HM has a degree in Economics, Chartered Accountancy, MBA, DBA in Christian business ethics and had worked as ED of a bank and director of investment bank. He serves as National Secretary of Full Gospel Businessmen Fellowship and adjunct lecturer in BCM. He had served as Men Ministry Chairman of CC
All these individuals love Christ and love to serve Him both in church and outside church for 30, 40 years. They don't simply do things or raised matter unnecessarily. Based on their credentials and years of faithful service, I can trust their understanding of responsibility, transparency, accountability and governance.
For cc to simply terminate their service and membership (Dr Lum), I hold the cc leaders for acting unChristianlike.
I know they love Christ, love God's work and love CC to the point that they would zealously guard God's work and His church from any human compromise.
Since they have strong Christian virtues and values, we Calvarites must rise up to defend their integrity. Please talk to them personally if you have any doubt. Don't just believe in any party who would accuse them as being trouble-makers in cc.
For the cause of Christ, we need men of God like them to stand up against any spiritual abuses in churches. We can only see great revival if our churches are cleaned up thoroughly.
Hey misguided minds,
The 100000 hits means you gotta be prepared to repent at the very least, 100000 times, so get ready....
Without Martin Luther, there would be no protestant churches.
Martin went through persecution by the church leaders of his days. He was EXcommunicated.
Martin persevered, overcame and vindicated. Haleluya! THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.
Christ is looking for modern days Martin Luthers to speak up against churches that go wayward like what was warned in the book of Revelation about the 7 churches.
If Jesus can give such warning, He knows that such churches exist. Be vigilant, watchful and prayful.
Gracious Father, I pray for RC2 that you'll forgive him for his vicious name-calling and judgmental attitude. Open his eyes, sanctify his mind and fill his heart with your love for fellow brothers and sisters-in-Christ. Amen
Brother Keeper,
Whatever qualifications WHM and KC have, that do not legitimized them for using baseless criminal threats against your christian brothers.
You have to follow the law.
Hey Anonymous @7.02am,
It is very funny to me to keep hearing so many anonymous say that WHM & KC have used "baseless criminal threats against" others. If you really read it here or you really heard them say it to you, then tell us word for word what they said. I'd like to know. I think others would like to know too.
Are you SP's spy trying to fish for info? Or is your conscience bugging you?
I have shown the info fr here to my own lawyer friends and they said, SP & BOD shd clean up their acts. Oh and my friends also tell me even if they clean up now, they cannot change the past records, so...
The TTG may just take your advise and "follow the law".
I am extremely disappointed at how things are progressing/unfolding (if you will). After all that the TTG has done, the church is still not making any 'real' attempts at transparency to the members.
Now we have 2 other copycat blogs that will only confuse the matter further. (Sigh) Will we ever get the answers the TTG is searching for?
The way things are going, I really don't see a end any time soon...
I like the statement said ...."what has happened in Calvary Church, is a lesson to all pastors to be righteous and upright in the area of transparency and governance in their own churches and lives. It is also a reminder to men and women who are elected by church members to represent them that they must execute their duties with integrity, always endeavouring to fear God and not fear the men of God"
I totally agree with you brethren that the Church of Jesus Christ needs transparency in all aspects and revival comes when we turn our wicked ways and repent of our sins to Him. Jesus needs a clean heart and not deceiving wolfs. Keep persevering for justice and righteousness. Remembering you all in prayers
God has instituted governments in the world to govern countries and their citizens.
God has given governments the authority to take action on any citizen running foul of the law.
No Christian or even Christian leaders (including Pastor) are exempted if he or she has acted against the law of the land.
Remember that all governments are upon His shoulder. For that matter, government and earthly authority can be God's instrument to deliver His judgement.
Once upon a time, there was Men's Ministry in CC. It was closed by SP.
Once upon a time, there was Joy's Fellowship. It was closed by SP.
Once upon a time, there was Calvary Single Adult Fellowship. It was closed by SP.
Once upon a time, there was Calvary Kindergarden. It was closed by SP.
Men, Women, Young Adult and Children..All these ministries are effectively disbanded. Why? My conclusion: SP controls ministries through paid church pastoral staff; SP knows he can't control lay leadership because they are not paid.
The administrators of the other 2 alternative blogs behave as if there is nothing wrong with CC.
Please give 10 reasons why there is nothing wrong with CC.
I can give you more than 10 reasons why something is wrong. But, just see these 10:
1. 47 years (CC said 40) - no one fit to be elder despite SP's leadership. Sad for all Calvarites because there is no good fruit among us.
2. Attendance has gone down over the years as most Calvarites left CC in bitterness.
3. Tithes and Faith Promise have dropped despite 'fountainhead' status.
4. Leaders who spoke up on church issues are dropped like in political arena. Deacon who stands up for truth is not spared.
5. SP took 1.9m into his personal ministry and gave back when questioned by TTG group. It is as if his right to do it anyway. No one can question. He does not feel any wrong. After all, it's for God's work as decried by deacons.
6. SP travelled first/business class whereas Jesus rode on a donkey. It does not matter to him whether the money come from a total sacrifice from a little boy or a poor old man.
7. SP promoted his children. The whole family effectively controls the whole church. Dynasty is important. So, it's SP, SP Jr, SP III
8. SP manipulated the constitution in 'handpicking' deacons. This explains the type of leadership qualities we now witness.
9. Deacons are ineffective where majority feels everything ok despite glaring wrongdoing
10. SP and deacons show no Christlikeness in attitude, behaviour and action. See the type of announcement made from pulpit that TTG group are malicious. Ignore and brand them as evil. Terminate them or ask them to go other churches.
Ha ha SM,
Does your pseudo stand for "Sadly Misguided" then? I don't see how "misguided minds" can be construed as "vicious name calling".
Oh me forgets.....but then again this is CT where all molehills are made into mountains!!
THE TWILIGHT ZONE
"He who is coming will come and will not delay. But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him. But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved." Hebrews 10:32-39
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dearest Calvary Church
My dear brethrens living in the Twilight Zone,
Rejoice, for there the Lord has set the battle tone
So though there seems no end to the Calvary story,
Don’t fret, ‘cause it will end in total victory
When prayers are delayed, as they sometimes will,
When the road you're trudging seems all uphill,
When others cry “why so long” and doubt is high,
And you long to smile, but you have to sigh,
When the affairs of Calvary is pressing you down a bit,
Rest if you must, but don't you quit.
Life is queer with its twists and turns,
Yet, we must sometimes learn,
That many a ‘dark clouds’ turn about,
When we stand fast and stuck it out.
So don't give up though the pace seems slow,
And the enemy is unyielding with his blow.
For your faith will turn fear inside out,
And banish all the clouds of doubt,
For you never can tell how close you are,
It may be near when it seems so far.
So stick to the fight when you're hardest hit,
For when things seem worse, that you must not quit.
Your hiding place is in the Twilight Zone
Where He will reconcile the divided church into ONE.
"...let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus...." Hebrews 12:1-2
Vijay
i would like to know what exactly happened to dr lum? did he resign or was asked to leave? i was at the watchnight service and a member stood up during testimony time and said he was sacked but based on the blog's interview it states that he left on his own accord.which is the truth? please let me know as i m a worshipper like you and i'm concerned with the issues of the church.
To Churches outside Malaysia
Supporters of SP relentlessly accused TTG group of wrongly and unjustly throwing accusations at SP.
To establish one critical area is foreign love offerings given to SP - according to deacons, SP did not declare these offerings. This action can run foul of law of non-declaration of income. Also, he and family have few big houses and cars.
For churches given him love offerings, please inform the Inland Revenue Board of Malaysia. Let this revenue authority does the investigation. After all, pastor must have exemplary character.
This can be one way for pro-SP group to convince themselves. It is futile to continue to brand TTG group as SP accuser. Truth must come out at this hour of darkness.
It's good for SP and family to come out clean regarding love offerings collected from overseas churches.
Leaders are an example for the followers to emulate. Look at Paul. He told his followers to imitate him because He represented Christ on earth. He was bold to say that because He was truthful and exemplerary in character. If a Shepherd has no love for his flock than I think he should leave afterall Pastor come and go whereas the body of Christ remains.We cannot be hearing a Shepherd preaching hatred message weekly. The pulpit must not be abused instead the Word of God and the Name of Jesus should be lifted up at all time. Of course the devil wants to break the Church by sending those who stand for justice and truth to another church and all the sins will be covered under the carpet. Lets not give the devil the victory instead pray for a TRANSFORMATION & CHANGE to happen.
When I went into the other blogs I was in total disbelief and shocked that the blog master could say that those that stands for truth and transparency worship another god. The question that comes to my mind "How mature are these blog masters in their Christian walk? - for them to say a thing like that.
We are all in the family of God (even SP is one of us in the same family) and we worship only one God who is our Father.
When children in the same family fight - the head of the family (SP) should come out and do the reconciliation. It should shocked the head of the family if one fraction of the family calls the other fraction who oppose them that they don't have the same father.
How sad our Heavenly Father is now that the children in CC is fighting until they questioned the faith of another.
O God please step in!
Yet another miracle from God, hallelujah!
That Why So Long and Charles would start their own blogs which resulted in unwitting Calvarites going into our CT blog can only be a work of God. Now more and more Calvarites are aware of the situation in CC and may therefore be more proactive as God uses each one of us to restore this house of His.
You, sovereign Lord, sit on the throne and rule over everything! And, Lord God, Your timing is perfect!
those anti truth, transparency and governance folks are really hilarious..they keep saying that getting 100k hits is no big deal etc etc. but yet they keep on commenting abt it in their blogs. Do I sense a hint of jealousy? Guess it just shows their maturity level :)
ALTERNATIVE SITE
Recently a member of an "alternative site" (I shall not mention the name of the site out of brotherly love and respect to him/her) wrote an email to me and made derogative statements. Yet, when I informed I am willing to meet up with him/her, he/she declined! - please refer to reply as per Attachment A below.
I totally agree with the following blogger.
Gertrude Pereira said " I would like to see faces and names to the people who are managing this blog. Faceless blogs don't have much credibility. I teach my students to be wary of blogs which do not reveal their personalities. It implies that you do not want to be identified with the information released in the blog and that undermines your credibility. But, some of you have left your names in the comments and that gives me some confidence that I am here with Calverites."
The reply from the "Alternative Site" adds support to what Gertrude Pereira has said. Hence, I have decided to share the e-mail send by the 'Alternative Site" in this blog without identifying the person for the benefit of all those who blog and read the many posting in the various blogs that have now sprouted on issues at Calvary Church. This is to further champion the call for all Christian bloggers to identify themselves when they blog.
I have and will continue to maintain that my sole purpose in my blog is to see 'the divided church united' as per the poem (first attempt) I had penned on the 29th of January. I am open to all alternative sites that stand for truth, transparency and governance. BUT THEY MUST BE WILLING TO IDENTIFY THEMSELVES. I chose NOT TO ENTERTAIN ANONYMOUS bloggers who send derogative e-mails and unwilling to see me in person when requested.I shall consider such e-mails as spams and will not reply but will post them in this blog.
Once again, the reply from our dear brother/sister is another proof that the majority of the anonymous Christians that seem to champion for truth and transparency do not show Christian quality nor have the faith to stand for what they believe. It is all just a show - just hot air without any real substance nor transparency. Otherwise they will be willing to put their names to what they belief. History has shown that every stand for truth was championed by IDENTIFIED leaders. Please let me know of any anonymous Christian who became a leader?
These are the derogative statements in his/her e-mail to me and my reply since he/she chose not to meet me in person:
1. AS (Alternative Site) : You (similarly) Dr.Lum, seems to have fully utilized your doctorate to champion your idea and thought, even though it's unbiblical.
Vijay: How is this not Biblical?
2. AS : Why do you need to introduce yourself as a researcher @ necf....are you afraid otherwise CT would not even posted your comments because you offer slightly differing views.
Vijay: Is this not the best way that you can independently authenticate me?
3. AS: Why use your position to push down your ideas and thought? A political tactic.
Vijay: Is there alternative views you mentioned not doing the same?
4. AS: Have you spoken to any of our pastors or BOD and get their point of view prior offering your thought @ CT? Then how can you CLAIM to transparency and governance?
Vijay: How do you know that I have not met up with people from Calvary who are both for and against CT? How do you know I have not spoken/written to other Christian organisations for assistance to resolve issues at Calvary?
5. AS: We will offer strong objective to NECF for your bias articles @ CT.
Vijay: You are welcome to do so - make sure you identify yourself and not hide behind the computer screen like you did when you replied to me and not willing to see me in person!
6. AS: Btw - this is an internal issue, CT has been a huge mistake by allowing a total "foreigner" to harp on the issue. As always CT needs publicity and credibility, hence you fell into their custom digged hole..... I advice you get yourself out before more harm is done to your reputation.
Vijay: What reputation? Genuine Christian leaders have no reputation - they continue to die to self and let God vindicate them. I stand with all those who cry for justice - including you - but you chose to decline my invitation. Furthermore are we not our brothers keepers?
7. AS: CT have total lack of truth, transparency and governance...otherwise they would have published differing view and offer reasonable viewpoints, but they have effectively buried our comments and thought that has been posted at CT..... do you call this transparency.....and you have place your reputation online by posting an articles that is in support of their actions.
Vijay: What about AS - your reluctance to identify yourself just shows how transparent you are.
I have now include all e-mails from AS as spam and hence will not be entertaining him/her as he/she did not take the opportunity to see me when it was first offered.
PS: I have untouched AS e-mail as is but have corrected the many spelling mistakes.
THIS IS HIS/HER REPLY: (Attachment A).
Hi Vijay,
I'm not going to reveal my identity just yet, because my family and I want to worship at Calvary peacefully and don't want to be harassed by the TTG supporters.
Also, you seemed to be stating your position and title everywhere, well promotions comes from the Lord, right, the Lord has surely blessed you. But not sure if that gives you the leverage to speak and put forth your own understanding into our Church, like I said previously, hopefully you could meet up with one of our pastor or BOD to get a clear understaning of matters. Rather then relying on a total bias blog - CT.
It is ok, if you don't visit "AS" but hopefully you could meet with my church leaders and get proper explaining from them.
God Bless
"AS"
In the light of this e-mail, I leave it to the reader to ponder on the alternative views of anonymous bloggers.
Vijay
Thanks you, Dr Vijay for being bold enough to stand up for what is right, even when you are being condemned for it by those faces without names people. I feel sorry that you had to be dragged into this but I thank you for your boldness and integrity. As for the Alternative site and their creators, I shudder to think what will happen to them and their families when they indeed realize the TRUTH about PG. They are also cowards,I have to say, for not even daring to reveal their true names to you even while emailing you. If they are so sure that what they are doing is right, why are they so scared to reveal their identities? It just shows that they are not fighting for truth and transparency but are instead fighting for lies.
TTG Supporter
Dr Vijay appears to be one step ahead of me but we both seems to be along the same tangent and train of thought.
Last night, my fellow TTG members endorsed my proposal to meet up with Why So Long and Charles for a friendly dialogue. It is my intention that at this meeting, all three of us can exchange views and share with each other our respective evidences in support of what each one of us has written about. This, I believe, will resolve some conflicting views and make it easier to achieve our common goal of seeing Calvary united and restored to her former glory, exemplifying the virtues of truth, transparency, accountability and good governance which is the call of today by every man, organisation, church, NGO and government.
I am pretty sure Why So Long and Charles monitor this blog constantly, so can the two of you please email me at kckclim@gmail.com with a few suggested dates and venue for our meeting. Don't worry, I won't ask you to sign anything.
I will also post a similar invitation on their blogs today.
To Concerned Christians
"Illinios Governor gets the boot" was a headline on page W30 of the Star dated Saturday, 31 January 2009. It further read as "Blagojevich was impeached for abuse of power..."
One interesting paragraph reads like this : He failed the test of character. He is beneath the dignity of the state of Illinios. He is no longer worthy to be our governor.
For details of the news, you can read in Yahoo! News at http://news.yahoo.com/topics/rod-blagojevich under the heading: Illinios Gov. Rod Blagojevich thrown out of office
One of the interesting paragraphs is: In a solemn scene, more than 30 lawmakers rose one by one on the Senate floor to accuse Blagojevich of abusing his office and embarrassing the state. They denounced him as a hypocrite, saying he cynically tried to enrich himself and then posed as the brave protector of the poor and "wrapped himself in the constitution."
In another paragraph: In the brash and often theatrical style that has infuriated fellow politicians for years, Blagojevich repeatedly refused to resign, reciting the poetry of Kipling and Tennyson and declaring at one point last month: "I will fight. I will fight. I will fight until I take my last breath. I have done nothing wrong."
Sound familiar!! These are the characteristics of abusive, manipulative and crafty leaders. And Pastors are NOT exempted.
Hi Vijay,
Thanks for sharing your unpleasant experiences with the moderator(s) of the alternative sites. Personally I've tried posting some comments many times, but they never appear. Yet the moderator(s) of the alternative sites can condemn CT and the TTG for not standing to truth, transparency and good governance. What a joke!
I truly commend you for your boldness and I salute you for standing up to your principles without wavering. What touches me is, even though you're not a Calvarite, you fear no condemnation for your truthful comments. I believe you view the current issues of Calvary Church to be one of yours too, as we are brothers and sisters in Christ. Just as what the late Martin Luther King Jr said "The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Your boldness to stand up to Truth, Transparency and Good Governance in churches and christian organizations would be blessed and rewarded by the Lord in His time. Fear not my brother for the battle is His.
I would be honoured to meet up with you to learn and exchange ideas and thoughts with regards to issues of TTG in churches and christian organizations. I can be contacted at my email jgerard@tm.net.my
Praise the Lord for a brother like you and God bless.
My wife and I have just returned from a wonderful 6 day prayer retreat which was very liberating. Often the meeting went through the night until 5 am with worship, praying and sharing the word of God. The format was identical to the early church in Act 2:46 wherein we all sat in a open seated auditorium and each one took turns to lead in prayer, share a word from the bible and worship in spirit and in song. A 13 y o girl came out and recited the entire book of Colossians from heart! I was so humbled but encouraged to see the young “meditate upon the Word day and night so that we may be careful to do everything written in it” (Joshua 1:8). There were 36 Singaporeans who were most encouraging and a Chinese house leader who is a partner in a law firm and after working the corporate world for 10 years, was called to set up a Prayer centre and orphanage in Suzhou. He shared that God told him to come to Malaysia and to attend the 6 day Prayer retreat. He is such a prayer warrior and it is a privilege to pray side by side with him through the night. In fact, the hours flew by and before you know it, it is 5 am. The regular meetings begin at 9 am. (Meetings begin from 9 am to 5 am the next day)
On the Chinese reunion day after the all night prayer meeting the night before, my wife and I took a break to return back to KL for the Reunion Dinner (Sunday, 25th January 2009) and at her family reunion dinner, despite having 4 hours of sleep, we felt empowered. We met a Chinese Myanmar (Burmese) worker aged 25 who had been a student in Malaysia and secured a diploma in accounting. She is now working locally and she was invited for the reunion dinner as her family was in Yangon (Rangoon) and could not attend her family reunion dinner. Sook Leng and I were led to share the full gospel to her and I was amazed because we were a Spiritual “tag team”, one shared, whilst the other prayed. SL would leave me to share as she left to pray (not to overwhelm the Myanmar girl) and I would leave to pray whilst SL shared and then after sharing the full gospel, SL invited me back to lead her in the Sinner’s prayer. We prayed this women into the Kingdom of Heaven that night! What a joy. When you ask for the nations, God will give it to us. So now we need to find a local Myanmar Christian leader to help us disciple her. Please pray for her.
I was even more amazed that for the first time in 14 years, my wife and I worked perfectly as a team. Perfect harmony and synchronicity!!
Anyhow, I am excited to have a China House Church leader and wife staying a couple of days with me in my house and I am inviting a friends to come over to my house on Sunday, 1st February 2009 at 9:00 PM to hear his powerful testimony. He is 40 years old and was a Corporate Lawyer in Suzhou for 10 years. He was so successful that a Shanghai firm made him principal partner in their Suzhou office. He heard the call and he quit to lead three small house churches and to set up a Prayer Centre and also Orphanage to take in Orphans from the Sichuan Earthquake. He and his wife have been married for 9 years and have no natural children and are leading the adoption campaign.
Any CT readers interested please email me at chriskl@pc.jaring.my to advise me if you wish to come so that I can prepare nightcap arrangements. I will give you my address but I will only respond to real persons and not anonymous persons.
Friends, the Kindgom of God must be extablished here on Earth. Time is VERY SHORT. Please be guided accordingly.
Went to one of the other blogs - got a good laugh. They said their objective is not "transparency" but truth. How on earth can you have truth without being transparent?? If I remember correctly what I read - they said that God is not transparent because He sometimes do not tell us everything!! Isn't truth being honest? I am confused.
I posted a comment which I felt was not attacking them but just stating on what our SP should be doing. It was not published.
Dr Vijay,
You are a researcher. If you want to use information and cite from our struggle in Calvary, I suggest you formally write to the Board of Deacons and ask for the necessary permission. None of the people, neither those who post comments or moderate the blogs, have the authority to commission you to use our case for your Christian research.
If you want to help, write in formally to the Board of Deacons because they represent our church, not an individual or handful of members nor a group that has no legal status.
Engaging with anyone represented by CT, CU, CK or TTG will not solve anything. Yes, it may give you some interesting to write about but not our problems.
Dr 8.
Dr 8, I'm not sure whether u are a real Dr or fake Dr.
If you are a real Dr, don't u know all researchers must cover all sides of a story. Otherwise it's not called a research.
Anyway if u heard lawyer KK Wong at last EGM, he said CC not a legal entity and the deacons are personally accountable and have the right to sue or be sued. So if that's the case, their opinion on the church can also be deem to be personal opinions.
So what's the diff bet them and TTG, CT, CU.
"...the worries of this life, the
deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word."
Mark 4:19 NIV
Following Christ day in and
day out is not all that simple...
because we are not all that simple.
O Lord, help us simplify our living...
and center our lives in YOU.
Dear Lord Jesus,
Thank you for reminding us that in the midst of all the turmoils of life, we have to come back to the basics of our faith... by spending time and focussing our lives in YOU.
Forgive us Lord for allowing many things to crowd out our thoughts and devotion to You.
In the midst of all the troubles in CC we shall come humbly before God to ask Him to shower His peace and love upon us. Surely, God is faithful and He will act in His time and the manner as He deems best.
In Jesus' Wonderful Name we pray...
AMEN.
Dr 8
our BOD are a bunch of 'dumb' , even members who had been writing to them and still wrting had not even received a single response! And here You are, trying to advocate the power of BOD and the power of church management, you know what; for your information and the interest of all readers, both the church and BOD had not even taken any positive steps and replying and responding to the TTG and all the concerned members, those who are currently serving also still waiting for response but to no avail.. so stop your rubbish by telling Dr Vijay to write or approach the BOD, do you think the BOD will be so gracious and responsive? I doubt.
Dr Vijay had not done anything wrong, he is merely doing his duty as a CHRISTIAN...and feeling the grief of God in cc. SO, DR Vijay, thank you for your good article and research, no one has the right to stop you...
Dear Dr 8
I know many, including me, have tried to contact the appropriate people so that relevant documents can be made public to resolve the Calvary Saga. But alas it has not happened. However, I would really appreciate if you could make arrangements as I would be delighted to meet the BOD and other leaders in Calvary Church who would like to share their side of the story with authenticated supporting documents. I know many would like to hear the official version from the horse’s mouth and address issues that still remain unanswered to the satisfaction of Calvarities.
I suggest that to avoid biasness, a representative from the various blogs be part of the investigation team. To add further creditability, a representative from the AOG and the NECF should also be invited to be part of the team. I think this is the breakthrough everyone wants and we welcome your assistance to make this happen.
As the representative from the various blogs and Christian Organisations would be subject matter experts with relevant professional qualification and experience, I am confident; we would be able to put forth a well documented investigative report for all to read. We appreciate your assistance to make this happen. You would be the catalyst everyone is looking for to resolve and end the Calvary Saga.
When can we meet so that we may formalize this agenda as I would like you to be part of the team? May I know what your expertise is? Other than my expertise in audit, risk etc, I have worked in Fraud and Investigation in an international organisation previously and my present work in Anti-money Laundering and Counter Terrorist Financing puts me in good standing with people in BNM, Police and the ACA. Of course the leader of this team would be the Holy Spirit as only He knows the real events at Calvary Church and He would guide us into all Truth.
Vijay
Further to my invitation to meet with CU and CK, CU has responded to me in his/her blog. Below is his/her reply and my response to them:-
REPLY FROM CU ADDRESSED TO ME WHICH I COPIED FROM HIS/HER BLOG.
Dear KC Lim,
There is nothing to discuss between us, I'm not at any position to decide on moving forward program or any other leadership initiatives. Why waste the time, you should rather contact the BOD/SP/leader and put forth your idea and suggestions.
To try to figure out who we are, will do any of us any good. I could even be a real IT savvy gardener/guard...
As mentioned in one of the comments, we just trying to provide alternative view of the articles being published at CT.
Let's just shut down all our blog and take the right channels in addressing our issues in a biblical manner? What you think?
CU Team
MY REPLY TO THEM:
Dear CU & CK
You are probably not aware but I have personally met with SP and his wife and the Church Treasurer BEFORE the AGM and I suggested to SP not to present the church accounts at the AGM until the extended ministries' accounts are audited and consolidated in order to avoid unnecessary questions and possible confrontation with members. But sadly, SP chose to present the accounts as it was. Even when the then Church auditor told the members that it is only proper to consolidate the accounts or have the extended ministries annexed, SP chose to call for a vote whether we should remain status quo (meaning remain in breach of accounting guidelines) or have the extended ministries' accounts annexed. That vote caused a church split that we now see. The votes for transparency was a simple majority over the votes for status quo. It should be noted that this win for transparency was achieved despite the Chinese congregation being asked by their leaders to stand to vote for status quo. You and I know that most of our Chinese congregation are the elderly folks who don't know a word of English and totally unaware of what they were voting for.
At the meeting with SP, SAP and Church treasurer, I also briefed them on the various aspects of our church finance and admin which are potentially in breach of some of our country's laws. I also gave SP for his own personal reading a brief of the many stories and rumors being circulated by members. I felt at that time, that he should be made aware of such happening in the church because those loose murmurings, whether founded or not, are not edifying to the church. I had hope that with this awareness, he will take stock of his life and keep himself above reproach as a pastor should.
After the AGM, I also gave a copy of the legal opinion which I had obtained, on all the issues which I had raised to all the deacons. Subsequently, together with Bro Teng, Siew Chyuan and Liza, we met with deacons twice. At those meetings, we raised many issues in our church which needed to be addressed. We have given our ideas and suggestions verbally and in writing. Personally, I have also met up with Pas David, Richard and Steven. To be fair, the pastors are unable to do much because they are sub-ordinate to SP and the powers rest with the Board of deacons headed by SP as the chairman.
I have done what I can. You have maintained that our TTG group have published baseless allegations. It is precisely because of that I want to meet you and show you the evidences that we have and similarly you can show me the evidences that you have to substantiate your arguments. I agree that we are not in a position to decide on moving forward program but with less conflicting views, we can play a role in helping the church in their moving forward program.
On your suggestion to shut down all our blogs, I am sorry to tell you that CT is not mine to shut. I didn't start it in the first place.
Since you have decided not to meet as you feel it will be a waste of time (which I don't agree), I will not initiate any more meetings with the both of you.
Also since you chose not to meet to see our evidences, I hope you will stop commenting that the TTG group has made baseless allegations. Please don't suggest that we publish the evidences for the world to see because I also know that you wouldn't want the world or our authorities to see the "mistakes" our SP and deacons have made.
Henceforth, the TTG core members will not respond to any further comments on this issue from you.
By the way, since I have posted my invitation to meet you in CT earlier, I will post your response and this reply in CT as well.
God bless,
KC Lim
looks like the creators of CU and CK are what we call "mun hao kao" in chinese (translation: dogs behind a gate)...they will bark at people when they know they are safe behind a gate (or in CK and CU's instance, hiding behind nicknames) but once they are asked to meet up for a proper discussion on the very things they are challenging, they will be, like cowards, run under a car or into the house.
I am not a TTG member but looking at how TTG is responding vs. how the ppl of CK and CU are responding, it is safe to say who are the liars (CK and CU) and who are telling the truth (TTG). Thanks for the enlightenment, CK and CU!
After reading the 2 copycat blogs, I have concluded the following abt their creators and their real intentions:-
1. They are afraid to reveal their real identities as they are not just 'ordinary' church members and have a higher stake in fighting against truth and transparency in the church. If they are just ordinary members, they would not be afraid to let ppl know who they are since they seem so sure that they are doing the 'right'thing.
2. Their site was set up NOT for transparency nor for truth but it is just a means to attack the TTG group for daring to speak out against wrongs done by PG.
3. They keep accusing the TTG of making baseless allegations but when proposed by both Datuk KC and Dr Vijay to meet up, they chicken out and come up with all sorts of excuses not to meet up. Afraid of the truth perhaps?
4. They try to get CT to shut down by saying that they too will shut down their blogs if CT shuts down. Do they seriously think they have any foothold on CT? My suggestion: keep on wasting your time updating your blogs, CU and CK..we church members don't really care for it since it carries no credibility nor do you have any substantial grounds in your arguments and we will keep on reading and supporting CT whether your blogs go on or shut down in failure.
Dear CT readers,
In my last reply to CK & CU, I narrated the story of my meeting with SP, SAP and our Church Treasurer which took place before the AGM.
CU, in their response published this remark:-
“From your owns word, we can now understand that you threathen our SP & SAP, and you arrange your moves well, as to fire-up the TTG members to speak out during the AGM.”
Anyone, with a simple grasp of English, can see that I did not say that I threaten SP and SAP in my narration of the meeting which was also published here earlier. Neither CK or CU was at that meeting and yet, they can blatantly allege that I threatened SP and SAP. I would love it if they would go and lodge a police report on my alleged threat.
For your info, that meeting with SP, SAP and the Church Treasurer ended very cordial and well. SP and SAP thanked me (and my wife, who was with me) for sharing our concerns and he expressed that more Calvarites should emulate us and be upfront and share with them their concerns the way we did. The meeting ended with SP praying for us and SAP gave my wife a hug. A few days later, SAP even called my wife and asked for her opinion on how to answer potential questions which may arise at the AGM.
Any one of you (including the nameless person/s behind CK and CU if they have the guts) can approach SP, SAP or the Church Treasurer to verify the above.
I would suggest that every Calvarite, irrespective of whether you are pro-SP, pro-TTG or just pro-Jesus be very cautious of CK and CU. No one knows their identities or what their real motives are. It is very easy to make baseless allegations and tells lies when a person is unidentified because they do not need to verify and be accountable for what they say. When questioned they shirk from answering by pushing us to ask the pastors and deacons and worst of all, they conveniently twist our words and actions to suit their agenda. How can they know so much about what transpired between us and the church leadership in our private meetings with them? Are they insiders or just someone who is out to split our church because of personal vendetta? The above incident reveals much about their true colours and we must be careful. They may be SP's enemies using this situation to split CC. I strongly believe that if anyone is for SP will stand by him and defend him openly like in the case of our BOD.
Whereas in the case of the CT, any one of you who wants to criticize any one of us, can approach us anytime in and out of Church and tell it to our face. A few of us have experienced that and it is perfectly alright. If you are new and really do not know us, just ask any pastor or deacon and ask him who is KC or Hong Meng or Teng or Siew Chyuan or Liza or Karen or Winslow etc etc. Yes, you guessed right! Despite our differences, all of us still maintain very cordial relationships with our pastors and deacons because we are all part of the Body of Christ. I personally still receive Christmas and Chinese New Year smses from them and I reciprocate in like manner. That is how it should be.
God bless
I put this comment in the other blog. Let's see if they will publish this.
Quote
Dear All,
Let us not talk about evidence. Look at SP - does he walk the talk.
He has not even uttered a sound and come out to defend himsef. Church is in choas as members are fighting each other. He is using everybody to fight for him. Silence does not mean he is not guilty.
Remember the Lake Club issue. He chose to remain silent because he said he was not guilty. Well, there will never be closure for him on this issue. Look how it raises its ugly head again and again. As for the church saga, if he chose to remain silent as if he has done nothing wrong (it is his accusers that are wrong) we will see that this will haunt him until he stands out and have closure. Defend or admit and ask for forgiveness. Sin always have consequences whether one wants it or not.
Let's see if you will publish this"
If the church accounts and BOD minutes are so contentious, may the BOD quickly make a decision to open up 100% for everyone to see.
Let members who give see first. If not, as what Vijay suggested, have representative from AOG, NECF, Vijay, TTG and CK to investigate and come out with report.
If BOD and SP cannot decide, then let the authorities decides. ACA, IRB, BNM and police can come in.
To : Datuk KC at 5.18 feb 1
huh.. you said it well...and fair. Our BOD and church pastors should behave and talk and think like you. Good job. Thank you.
Hey Vijay,
I gotta give it to you...your moniker is really the only element on truth in this CT blog...BAMBOO CONSPIRACY is indeed what you are carrying out,right to a 't'....a conspirational opportunist seeking to furiously stir the pot of confusion.
Why don't you just leave us all alone and conspire elsewhere? We have enough church antagonists in the TTG already.
It is almost close to a year since the whole matter first surfaced at the Leaders Meeting on 1 March, 2008.
Despite many attempts by Concerned Members to bring issues of concern to pastors and BOD the matters still remain outstanding. Pastors and BOD are still refusing to acknowledge that these matters need to be addressed. What has happened so far is leaders have avoided and made every effort to cover sensitive matters up.
It is like open wounds that are just being bundled up with bandages without proper treatment.
The wounds just get worst and gangrene sets in. By letting the wound on its own, it will not heal.
So now the matters in Calvary Church just get worst unless the issues are addressed. In fact with time more hidden things are uncovered. Pastors and BOD cannot continue to hide and pretend all is well and there is nothing wrong.
Let the leadership come out and face the issues. Why point fingers at TTG and say we are making false allegations? Tell us what is true then, don't just say we are making false allegations. By denying matters and keeping quiet does not mean pastors and BOD are right.
Let the auditors examine the books and records, make the necessary enquiries and reveal the actual state of affairs and come back to the members on their findings.
We have to be informed about the truth. Why try so hard to hide matters? Just be honest, come out in the open and keep members informed.
Truth does not have to be defended.
Truth speaks for itself.
Let Calvary Church abide by the truth again, no more shall deception and manupilation stiffle our church.
As it is now the church is like a sick patient in ICU and on drip. CC is in a critical condition.
Talking about opening the Church Account for members to see I think would be the best answer to all the debates that we are having now. Personally i would like to see whether RM200000 is given to someone for the title of Tan sri especially when you are not a politician. That will be interesting!
I want to be careful of what I say here.
There are RUMORS/SUSPICIONS that the two blogs CK and CU are manned by Pam and Jim Guneratnam?!
"You give a tenth of your spices - mint, dill and cummin.
But you neglected the more important matters...
justice, mercy and faithfulness."
(Jesus) Matthew 23:23 NIV
It seems we are often caught "majoring in minors."
Even in Calvary Church the pastors can be caught preaching so often about giving and giving money and boasting of building mega structures that the major issues about reaching out to members and worshippers in love and witnessing and meeting needs of others are conveniently missed out.
Where is justice, mercy and faithfulness? Aren't these the very things that Jesus is looking out for in Calvary Church? Will Jesus be pleased with what He sees in our church?
Lord Jesus, show us the things that are important to YOU so that they can be important to us.
God bless.
Dear TSK,
Well my Dr is neither real or fact, it doesn't exist. Obviously I'm not a doctor, that's just the pseudonym I use and I think it's rather puny, don't you think so?
Of course researchers are supposed to cover all sides to a story but sometimes that doesn't happen.
I'm sorry but CC you're referring to does have a legal status. It has to in order to exist, to conduct worship services, pay income tax, etc... In the lawyer's sense, it does not have the legal ability to be sued or to sue.
What I'm saying is that Dr Vijay should first make his charter known to the church first before pursuing it. Then he can start interviewing individuals from whichever blog. Shouldn't researchers cover all sides of the story as you mentioned?
Dr 8.
Dear 777,
You are very rude to call my suggestion "rubbish". Thank you for responding to my rubbish anyway.
Yes, I think the BOD are gracious and receptive to our voices if only it were done with the right tone and manner.
And no, I didn't say that Dr Vijay has done anything wrong. I have never said anything to discredit his work either. I do not know him and he doesn't know me. His "connections" may prove to be useful (which I will reply to after this).
Dr 8.
Dear RC2
Learn from the Bamboo...
The Bamboo and the Fern
One day I decided to quit... I quit my job, my relationship, my spirituality. I wanted to quit my life. I went to the woods by the sea front to have one last talk with God. “God”, I said. “Can you give me one good reason not to quit?” His answer surprised me. “Look around,” he said. “Do you see the fern and the bamboo plants growing along the coast?” “Yes”, I replied.
“When I planted the fern and the bamboo seeds, I took very good care of them. I gave them light. I gave them water. The fern quickly grew from the earth. Its brilliant green covered the floor. Yet nothing came from the bamboo seed. But I did not quit on the bamboo.
In the second year the Fern grew more vibrant and plentiful. And again, nothing came from the bamboo seed. But I did not quit on the bamboo. In the third year, there was still nothing from the bamboo seed. But I would not quit. In the fourth year, again, there was nothing from the bamboo seed. But I would not quit.
Then in the fifth year a tiny sprout emerged from the earth. Compared to the fern it was seemingly small and insignificant. But just 6 months later the bamboo rose to over 100 feet tall. It had spent the five years growing roots. Those roots made it strong and gave it what it needed to survive.”
Then in the sixth year, a great Tsunami battered the coast and crushed all the bamboos and the ferns. For miles after miles nothing was standing. All seemed lost. BUT after a month, a strange event took place. The bamboos which were knocked down flat by the strong waves bounced back again and stood tall. Sadly, the ferns died. It had served its purpose. It did not have the necessary resilience to withstand the final blow of the enemy.
God then said to me, “Did you know, my child, that all this time you have been struggling, you have actually been growing roots. I would not quit on the bamboo because within the internal structure, the DNA, I have build hidden strength and resilience and no matter how strong the blows of the enemy, it will resist and be victories.
So don’t quit, be like the bamboo. Learn from the bamboo. Good days give you happiness. But don’t discount the bad days because they give you experiences. Both are essential to life, so keep going. God has a divine purpose for each of us - provided we walk by faith and not by sight.
So dear friend, the Bamboo Conspiracy is actually, God’s beloved Calvary Church. The enemy is not fully aware of God’s conspiracy! Just like he did not know that there was a conspiracy in the death of Christ, he is not aware of God's hidden agenda for Calvary. If he had known that the death of Christ on the CROSS was God’s plan to liberate His people (and also his death sentence!), he would not have murdered Christ!
Yet, he has very short memory.
God has a hidden agenda with Calvary – there is a conspiracy and the enemy has taken the bait! Why has Calvary being singled out to face the ‘perfect storm?’ Did all this just happen or is there a divine will. The enemy does not know that Calvary is like the bamboo. Within the DNA of Calvary Church –the congregation, God has already built over the many ages of its existence, resilience against the evil one. Those with eyes to see will discern that the present ‘perfect storm’ within Calvary is His plan to raise a new army which will impact the very foundation of Christianity in Malaysia. When the ‘perfect storm’ is over, there will be a new level of spirituality and faith in Calvary that others will envy – but this blessing is ONLY your because like the bamboo, you discerned the conspiracy, and the present ‘perfect storm’ is the new dawn of many future blessing – greater work shall you do in His Name.
So is the name Bamboo Conspiracy just another name – or is it a conspiracy which you failed to discern! Don't imitate the fern - imitate the bamboo and know that the conspiracy is a blessing in disguise!
Vijay
PS. Use the current 'perfect storm' to learn the power of intercession. The Key to victory in Calvary is your spirituality. Know that both "the fors" and "the against" are brothers and sisters in Christ and God is our Father. I urge you to grow spiritually. Read books like Rees Howell - Intercessor, The Spiritual Secrets of Hudson Taylor, Fraiser of Lisuland, Books by Watchman Nee, Madam Guyon, Oswald Chambers, etc. Grow in your faith and completely have faith that God will help you ride out the present storm. There is nothing wrong in the present debate - but let us get the facts right. I think I need not repeat because others have already explained clearly what needs to be done. Be bold enough to put you name and be transparent and accountable - whether "FOR" or "AGAINST". I await the day when we are all ONE! Let us ALL believe this. I would not be wasting my time in this blog if I had not seen the END - VICTORY IN CHRIST!
Thanks Dr. Vijay for that very encouraging story about the Bamboo and the Fern. I am really seeing God slowly unfolding His truths to us. While there are those who purpose in their hearts to blog here to discredit what is shared here by various people (one being yourself)BUT our GOD turns all ill intents around to bring out His truths and Word to us.
Yes, this is a lesson that we all need to learn - To become a spiritual BAMBOO for Jesus. With the current events taking place not only in our church but in the world, we need to grow strong roots to be able to stand firm to withstand the coming "storms in life". Many will be facing great difficulties at work, at home and even in our society in the days ahead. Yes, we need to have strong roots in God, to be able to stand firm for Him.
We must thank RC2 for asking you this question about the name "BAMBOO CONSPIRACY" and we thank you for taking the trouble to explain the reason so graciously to us. If not for RC2's challenge to you, we would not have learned such a good lesson. The word Bamboo will hold a very different meaning and Bamboo plants will bring a very different picture to my mind from now on. Indeed, God will always have the final say in every situation we go through.
Yesterday was Communion Sunday and as usual the presiding pastor went through the process of asking the congregation to examine our hearts and confess our sins and wrongs before the Lord before we part take of the bread and wine.
I felt very deeply then and asked the Lord that if only we all can be open and transperant about what is happening in Calvary Church.
I asked myself then: Why can't we be open to confess the hurts and disappointments that we are facing with our leaders? Why can't our leaders be open to resolve matters that are disturbing so many members and worshippers? Why are we all still pretending all is well?
Are we so immuned and numbed by what is happening that we just don't bother to get matters resolved? I am wondering how our pastors and BOD feel when it comes to communion time. Is it just an act that they take part in and nothing more?
I am sure the Holy Spirit is working in all our hearts and surely God is speaking to us all including our pastors and BOD.
When will it be the time for all in the Body to come to a point to break down all the barriers, remove all the masks of pretence and to truly confess and ask God to restore us all in the Body?
I earnestly pray and ask God that it will be very soon indeed.
is very interesting to read all these things happened to so called GOD'S people.I reckon those with strong substance to make Police report or ACA if there is elements of frauds
I read all these comments with great shock because it involves GOD'S people. For those with strong facts pls report to Police or ACA if there elements of fraud. Open up the books for inspection. For those supposed to reply pls do so asap otherwise people might think there something amiss.
Hey KC,
Come on, we are NOT naive...you just wanted to flush out who the personas are behind CK & CU so that you and your minions can carry out a witch hunt on them too.
After all, you all are very good at biting the pastoral hands that feed you what.....so of course you and co. would have no qualms whatsoever in devouring these newbie blogs owners to bits.
And interestingly, when the CT blog is taken to task....every one of the core TTG members that we know of eg you, Karen the complicated issues housewife, Siew Chyuan, Winslow all point to all other directions but themselves and say...oh it is not in my place to moderate comments, I do not own this blog, I am not the one to shut down the blog blah blah blah.
You all only unite to character assassinate, that's for sure...and that's PATENTLY TRANSPARENT AND TRUE!!
You are only kidding yourselves and mocking God.
Hello Dr 8
Thank you for giving me the opportunity to be rude because of your rubbish; may I know have you been frindly to 'rubbish'? did you say thank you before you throw them away into those smelly dirty dumpsite?? I felt very sorry for you and sp; and bearing in mind that who is the root cause for you and me to 'call' each other as such? do you and I deserve all these? Whom do we have to hold him responsible? Is it not sp and BOD?
May I also quote from sp on his statement on both 8am and 10.30am service on communion Sunday? He ask: Who is the accuser of the breathren? What warrant him to ask this? And sp went on to answer himself and said: 'the accuser of the breathren is Satan. Hello Dr 8, for you having to 'accuse' Dr Vijay, TTG and concerned members here in this blog, Are you not 'the accuser of the breathren?'
In this context; are you not the 'Satan' sp refer to? Hence, I urge you to open your eyes and see and open your ears and hear, sp preached all this and made all this remark for.....?
I believe you must be one of those deacons or sp close contact, how do you know that those who wrote and presented their facts are not being gracious and gentle and nice? you mean to say that even by writing email and giving suggestion to church also need to bow down and beg or being polite in writing is still not up to the standard of the manner the sp and BOD expected?? Who are you then in this position to talk like that in this blog?
To : sp and bod
I am very very sad because of the church attitude.. this chinese new year, I was with many of my friends whom I shared Christ but I am very embarass to tell them that I will take them to SIB or DUMC because I am so afraid to let them know about the problem, and especially to let them hear sp's preaching. Please do something quick enough.. every week I can only bring different ones to other churches but not calvary church..
Hey Reality Check,
Live up to your “name” Reality Check! And not in a make believe one. What witch hunt can Datuk KC do to CK & CU? They work for him ah? Maybe you mean, you’re afraid SP & family will witch hunt them because their blogs are causing more shame to SP & his family and the church. They simply email to people to read their blogs and now so many in the blur before also know what SP is like behind the scenes. All they say got no meaning. They got nothing new except take other people’s comments here and scold them that side and because these innocent people here don’t read that side and they feeeel so gooood because no one say they are wrong there. Live in reality and be real in your comments.
It has already been clarified to us readers that this blog belongs to the TTG group. In this post they already said, about 40 people were there to dedicate CT to the Lord. To me it means, CT belongs to all those present there and including anyone else who also identify with the TTG group. So CT can belong to 40 or even 100 or more. If like this, then you ask one of them to shut down, that people cannot do because they must ask permission from the rest first. Business or working people will know how this works. Datuk KC, Bro HM, Siew Chyuan, Winslow, Liza, Sis Karen have openly invited us to speak to them if we have an issue with CT. I even find names like Joseph , Dr Chris , Andy L, Patrick, Richard who do not claim to be TTG but they are people I can approach in the church and this makes me comfortable because I can put a face to these names. I even see Kelvin and Kenny who are pastors now encouraging people here. And I am glad there is CT which gives us information.
And also please don’t character assassinate people here too. Please don’t refer to Karen as, the complicated issues housewife. If you know her personally like me, you will know that she is a simple, direct and clear minded person. I have been in her Bible classes before and she makes the Bible to be the most interesting book to read with her lessons. I used to look forward to the next Bible class after every lesson because she makes the lessons very relevant to us in our daily life. She is really the REALITY CHECK if you ask me. When will you Sis Karen, be back teaching the Bible class? I am looking forward to it.
Dear CT readers,
Talking about actual Truth, Transparency and Good Governance; I've recently written to the moderator(s) of CU, but unfortunately not a word from them. You can decide for yourselves which blog actually stands up for what they "preached". I have made up my mind, now over to you bros and sis.
Below is the email I've sent to them on Sunday 1 February 2009:
Dear Moderator(s) of CU/CK,
My name is Joseph Gerard and I’m a voting member of Calvary Church. I’ve been seeking and searching for the ACTUAL TRUTH from all parties, even by talking to some of the Assoc. Pastors with regards to the church issues. Sadly, no concrete answers have been obtained. I’m still waiting for the BOD to call for the leaders’ meeting, which was postponed. I’ll be very happy to meet up with you to find out your side of the story. I could be reached at this email address and also through my mobile 012-213 9287.
You claimed that CT/TTG have not been transparent and truthful when they deleted comments which are so called pro-PG or anti-CT/TTG. I’ve personally read some of these comments in CT. By the way, out of curiosity, may I know why my comments were not posted in CU? I don’t think I’ve written anything abusive or derogatory. If in your opinion I had, then kindly highlight to me so that I could make the necessary amendments.
Looking forward to hear from you and God bless.
Best regards,
Joseph Gerard
Whose Ministry Is It?
We hear so much about being called to serve; the emphasis, the honor, the glory of being called to serve. Why by age fifty, most "in ministry" are just heading into their prime. After all, the past thirty years have been spent investing in this pursuit, and now, "I am being rewarded with the fruits of my labor, my faithfulness to the call."
However, it would often appear that it is far easier to submit ones's life to the Cross than one's ministry. We can pray and sing, "Take My Life...," without so much as batting an eyelash, but "Take My Ministry?" Much like the rich, young man, who went away grieved, that's something we may not have bargained for.
The apostle Paul didn't risk all to help plant thirteen churches in order to build his own ministerial kingdom, nor to leave a monument, as King Saul did, to himself. The last thing he wanted to hear was, "I am of Paul!" He labored in order to leave his ministry, or rather, Christ, to others, that your faith might not rest in men. He labored in ordered to make himself ultimately expendable. "And I will most gladly spend and be expended for your souls." (2 Cor. 12:15a)
John the Baptist actually labored to personally decrease in order that His Lord might increase. Jesus laid both His life and ministry down in order that His Father's purposes might be accomplished. "And at the end of the age, the Son Himself will hand over rule of The Kingdom to His Father." (1 Cor. 15:24)
If the "Lord's work" is truly the Lord's work, then it cannot be "my work." If we are truly entrusted with a stewardship, then it is not our own. It, by all rights, belongs to its owner. It is his, or His, to give, to utilize, and yes, even to take away as he pleases.
To take what is not yours is robbery. To use what is not yours, as if it were yours, is fraud. To refuse to give up that which does not belong to you is covetousness. "For it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." (Phil. 2:13)
I like to address matters raised by "Reality Check" earlier today,
01. Why are you sounding so defensive? So you are admitting that there was an earlier "witch hunt" and now you are accusing KC and co of pursuing a "witch hunt too"? How can they do that, such parties (CK and CU)are backed by powerful leaders?
02."character assassinate"?
Here it is not a matter of character assassination. It is a question of what kind of character we find in pastors and BOD of CC. Do we find character traits that Jesus requires of His servants and leaders or the opposites?
03.What is there for the sheep to allegedly "character assassinate" on if the characters are built on godly values? We are also NOT NAIVE nor DUMB!
04."Biting the pastoral hands that feed you"?
How are we biting their hands? Being the sheep does not mean we just blindly follow the shepherd. God has given us discernment and wisdom to know right from wrong.
05.Further, the Bible does not grant immunity to leaders who abuse their powers and position (fleecing the sheep over the years), have serious character flaws not exemplary of a servant of God and refuse to deal with issues that are affecting the welfare and testimony of the Body.
06.In fact God warns us of His judgment on ungodly leaders and shepherds, of whom He will certainly deal with. The Bible has lots of real examples for us to take heed of. Actually, you can do a "Reality Check" yourself.
07."no qualms in devouring the newbie blog owners to bits"?
How can TTG "devour" these people "to bits"? No way! They are strongly backed and supported by powerful leaders. They have all the resources at their disposal. You need not be so sympathetical and defensive to them.
08."kidding yourselves and mocking God"?
When the truth is revealed in due time and the final curtains are drawn, we will see who is kidding who and who has been mocking God!
Our God is a God of Truth and Righteousness. God will determine the final outcome of this whole drama.
I choose to stand by the truth.
Dear Karen
Here is another story on the bamboo plant that will bless you.
God bless
Vijay
Monday, September 22, 2008
The Amazing Chinese Bamboo Tree
The Californian author and self-confessed amateur gardener, Rick Warren, shares this story:
Of all the growth patterns I’ve observed as a gardener, the growth of the Chinese bamboo tree is the most amazing to me.
Plant a bamboo sprout in the ground, and for 4 or 5 years (sometimes much longer) nothing happens!
You water and fertilize, water and fertilize, water and fertilize—but you see no visible evidence that anything is happening. Nothing!
But about the fifth year things change dramatically. In a six-week period the Chinese bamboo tree grows to a staggering ninety feet tall!
World Book Encyclopedia records that one bamboo plant can grow three feet in a simple twenty-four-hour period.
It seems incredible that a plant that lies dormant for years can suddenly explode with growth, but it happens without fail with bamboo trees.
Warren concludes his parable by calling his readers not to worry about growth and to focus on faithful care and nourishing.
Source: Rick Warren, The Purpose Driven Church: Growth Without Compromising Your Message and Mission (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan, 1996), 393-394.
Does Churchianity Spit Upon Jesus Christ?
In the Old Testament the word "spit" is listed in the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance four times. In the New Testament the word "spit" will be found seven times as follows:
•Matthew 26:67 "Then did they SPIT in His (Jesus Christ) face..."
•Matthew 27:30 "And they SPIT upon Him (Jesus Christ)..."
•Mark 7:33 Jesus spit in a case where he healed a deaf man, who had a speech impediment.
•Mark 8:23 Jesus spit in the case of healing a blind man.
•Mark 10:34 "And they shall...SPIT upon Him (Jesus Christ)..."
•Mark 14:65 "And some began to SPIT on Him (Jesus Christ)..."
•Mark 15:19 "And they smote Him on the head with a reed, and did SPIT upon Him (Jesus Christ)..."
In John 9:6 Jesus also SPAT upon the ground, made clay of the spittle and healed a blind man. As to why Jesus spit in those cases where He healed is speculated upon, in different ways by various individuals. There is an obvious great difference in why Jesus did spit, and those who SPIT upon Jesus Christ. Christ was SPIT upon out of ridicule, mockery, disgust and hatred by those who did this vile act. Even to this day, there are people who SPIT upon others (literally).
Churches do not literally SPIT upon Jesus Christ, but in a symbolic sense, many do because they reject the teachings of Jesus Christ in favor of the traditions and customs of men. The world of churches is overrun with man-made institutionalism, much as the religious environment in the time of Christ. Matthew 23 is proof that traditions in the time of Christ are still extant today. Oddly, the religious church leaders today seem to be blind in many ways, and in need of healing. The Healer is Jesus Christ, who came to set the captives free. Church leaders are bound in bondage to many traditions and are unable to see. They are often like the blind man that Jesus touched, and he only had a blurred vision (seeing men as trees) because when Jesus touched Him a second time, He saw clearly.
I would suggest that Jesus needs to spit (Mark 8:23) on the eyes of many pastors today, and heal their blind eyes so they can see--spiritually. Many are the pastors and church leaders who have blurred vision, all the while thinking they "see."
Dear Cathy T,
Were you serious in asking what character assassination the Thumping Thumpers Group can do? Why....all the nonsense posted by them in this blog provides the answer, my dear!
Beyond Accountability
When a group influences its congregation to trust in the leaders and discourages criticism of the leadership, the group creates a lethal combination! They encourage errors to be overlooked and leaders can get away with almost anything.
"Jan" was in prison. In her disciple's notebook she wrote ... I want to share Jesus with others but I don't want them to be in prison with me.
Jan's prison had no walls. She was constantly baby-sitting for the married couples in her group and her presence was required for so many church related activities that she had little time for herself or the nursing school she dearly desired to attend. Jan could not fully understand why the guidance of her leaders left her in such a situation. She only knew that she felt that she was in a prison. Although her situation was extremely oppressive, Jan felt she could not question the leadership, doubt their decisions, or ever say anything negative against the people she viewed as "God's men."
Abusive discipleship is a prison of the mind which therefore imprisons the body to accept the will of the group. ....
TRUST IS EXPLOITED
Trust is an important word for believers. Our Christian life is built on trust. The Christian fellowship is a community of those who trust God. We should trust one another, especially our leaders. A lot is made of trust of the leadership in some discipleships and most controlling groups. Some programs indicate that if we are not totally trusting in our discipler we are hard hearted and rebellious; that we are in sin.
REVIEW
MANIPULATIVE GROUPS MIGHT ...
•control negative feedback of leaders
•squelch legitimate criticism of leadership
•teach people to obey even when they don't feel right about it (thus encouraging people to die to their sense of right and wrong) •teach that doubts and criticism of leadership equals sin
•teach that all criticism of leadership is probably slanderous, divisive or factious
•cause members to loose jobs, promotions or deter them from school or other goals or family activities
•emphasize Biblical ideas like dying to self in a non-scriptural way •subtly redefine the meanings of words
•hound on these certain Biblical words almost to the exclusion of other sound Biblical principles
•induce guilt in members so they confess being sorry for not trusting their discipler more
•not tell you that in the Bible trust or loyalty is never used in reference to church leaders
•teach you that unity means that you need to change your opinions to match the groups' instead of constancy of purpose
•teach you that you must only go to leaders in private when you are pointing out error
•encourage the combination of trusting leaders and not criticizing
...because the Chief kept quite, hence members of CC are arguing amongst themselves. Don't SP/BOD feel any shame for this to prolong, so the whole world can read. like washing dirty linens in public. In politics leaders come and go. so i think this could be the begining of the end of SP reign.
Hello Cathy,
Thanks for the kind words written on my behalf. It must be some time ago since you attended my SCG class. Don't tell me you are one of the teens or children I once taught many years ago? Anyway say hello to me when you see me ok?
Cathy, don't bother about what people say of me or the TTG. Not that we enjoy what they say but rather we know and are prepared to receive these negative remarks about us. God is good and He has given us many promises to encourage us to stand firm for Him. Remember the rainbow that ended right in front of my car, which was guiding me home when I was so discouraged back in October last year? There may be a storm ahead of us, but God is in front of us and is guilding us along all the way. Also God has used Dr Vijay and his bamboo story to encourage us to grow deeper roots to withstand all storms that may come. Thanks anyway.
For the record and so that there will be no misunderstanding here, I was NOT axed from teaching SCG class. I stepped down at the end of 2007 because of differing convictions in my spirit. I know with this statement of mine, CU & CK will have alot to talk about but I also put on record here...I'm not bothered because I will not be distracted by people I don't know. Apostle Paul tells us, "Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air." (1 Cor 9:25-26) This is one advise I plan to keep.
To Reality Check, your comment at 9.33pm really baffles me and I seriously think you are quite confused here.
Cathy asked, "What witch hunt can Datuk KC do to CK & CU?" and she defended me by saying, "please don’t character assassinate people here too. Please don’t refer to Karen as, the complicated issues housewife..." I am telling you now, stop twisting and accusing others by misquoting people's words. If you want to quote and question others, please quote exactly what people say and not what you THINK OTHERS HAVE SAID. We all read with understanding here. Thank you.
My dear reality check, like some of the rest say...go have a reality check yrself. Btw, the 2 copycat blogs also don't post my comments...so much for critisizing CT abt not posting comments, they are really quite the hypocrites, these creators of the copycat blogs!
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
Jer 23:3 And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
Jer 23:4 And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
The Sword
Dear KC
Feb 1, 2009, 5.18 PM
I am glad you had a “cordial” meeting with PG & SAP.
However it will be most wise to wait and see whether it leads to the achieving of any of the primary objectives of TTG, which is really the bottom line to any event.
If it doesn’t....then ask what was the “cordialness” all about?
Don’t totally disregard the old proverbial saying,
“The leopard never changes its spots”.
It is known that the spot pattern that a leopard cub is born with never changes when it becomes an adult. Hence never believe a leopard when it says it has change its ways (spots).
Can a person with an attitude problem for 40 years now change in a short while?
Yes it is possible. With God, nothing is impossible.
BUT IT IS IMPROBABLE !
Is it impossible for God to change Pharaoh? Of course not!
But Pharaoh did not change. I said PHARAOH did not change.
Can God save you if you don’t want to?
Once Datuk Wan Azizah was in my department.
The Head of Department made very strong overtures to be “very nice”.
She told the husband, Datuk Anuar Ibrahim, about the “nice man”.
Datuk Anuar came right to the point and told his wife, “Find out exactly what is it he wants”.
Why is SP & SAP so “cordial”?.
Please make sure it is not one of the following reasons – TTG is affecting them badly, TOTT is working – offering down, faith promise down, tithes down, CCC not getting enough funds; bad embarrassing public image for SP & family, bad public image for CC, BOD, AGM coming some BOD will be removed, possible legal proceeding in the air, more pressure from other quarters; CT Blog is effective in informing the congregation of truths and affecting SP’s image badly, and I hear that PG and BOD are getting worn out. These effects are essential to get to the position below:-
THE ONLY REASON FOR THE “CORDIAL” MEETING TO BE GOOD
is that it should “stop the rot, right the wrong”
and the people in the wrong should repent and change.
WHEN THIS HAPPENS THEN EVERYTHING CAN STOP.
Once this wave stops you may never be able to generate it again.
Dr Vijay,
I'm terribly sorry for the delay as I've had some personal matters to look into over the last two days.
Nevertheless let's go back to the issues at hand. I have no expertise in those areas you have mentioned. I am retired and have no interest in spending the rest of my life looking for cobwebs in Senior Pastor's drawers.
I know you are trying to throw the ball back into my court through your invitation for me to be involved. I'd be polite and say that it'll be a delight to meet you in person but frankly I don't really know your true intentions and unfortunately my health and physical conditions don't allow me to meet casually or otherwise.
I'm not sure who are the "appropriate people" that you have tried to contact. However, with all your connections, I'm sure you know a young man by the name of Br Philip Tan whom I believe is a deacon and I believe also has similar corporate experience, just like you Dr Vijay. I'm not in the position to arrange a meeting for you either but I'm sure people like Br Philip Tan could.
I'm not sure who's who in this so-called saga. My opinion is that the meetings should just involve relevant parties. i don't see a need for subject matter experts, Christian organisations, bloggers and leaders to take part in these meetings. Doing so in my humble opinion will only complicate the issues further.
So back to my original call, and that is you should write to the church, make your intentions known, what you would like to see achieved in the meetings, both personal and for the good of this church and include your proposal for how issues should be resolved.
Dr 8.
A MARK OF A LEADER
Dear Joseph Gerard
I salute you for your boldness - God has not finished with you yet! He has higher purposes for people like you whom I see scatter in the blogs. I praise the Lord for the many who have stood for what they believe inspite of victimisation by God's prodigal sons... These are surely His chosen onces for "the greater works ye shall do in MY name"
Many years ago when the Lord was molding me - it was a painful process. I almost wanted to QUIT! But a Scottish man gave me these poems which have trully blessed me. I pray it bless many of you for many are experiencing what is written in the poem.
When God wants to drill a man,
And thrill a man,
And skill a man
When God wants to mold a man
To play the noblest part;
When He yearns with all His heart
To create so great and bold a man
That all the world shall be amazed,
Watch His methods, watch His ways!
How He ruthlessly perfects
Whom He royally elects!
How He hammers him and hurts him,
And with mighty blows converts him
Into trial shapes of clay which
Only God understands;
While his tortured heart is crying
And he lifts beseeching hands!
How He bends but never breaks
When his good He undertakes;
How He uses whom He chooses,
And which every purpose fuses him;
By every act induces him
To try His splendor out-
God knows what He's about.
Author Unknown
**********************************
Behind my life the Weaver stands,
And works His wondrous will.
I leave it in His all-wise hands,
And trust His perfect skill;
Should mystery enshroud His plan,
And my short sight be dim,
I will not try the whole to scan,
But leave each thread with Him.
Nor till the loom is silent,
And the shuttles cease to fly,
Shall God unfold the pattern,
And explain the reason why.
The dark threads were as needful
In the Master's skillful hand
As the threads of gold and silver
In the pattern He planned.
Author Unknown
***********************************
Robert J. Morgan, The Red Sea Rules. Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 2001, p. 11,12.
Dear 777,
Thank you but I respectfully decline the offer to be positioned as equal to Satan. Satan IS the accuser of the breathren, anyone else is just being used by Satan. So I take it that you're trying to say that I am being used by Satan.
However I didn't accuse anyone, not of being malicious nor of being evil-doers, nor being secretive and lacking governance. I only made a suggestion to Dr Vijay.
It is for this reason that I would like to say that your name hardly suits the way you speak. The heart of your message shows anger, disrespect, a lack of maturity and a very disturbed and unfocused mind... barely the traits of a complete Christian. Your name should be 101 because you are nowhere near completion.
But aren't we all that way? Aren't we all incomplete in one way or another?
No I'm not a "close contact" of Senior Pastor or the deacons, whatever that means. But Senior Pastor and I have known each other long enough for me to call him pastor and friend. I am by no way trying to reason or defend him of whatever he's being accused of, and frankly I don't believe he is that sort of person. Then again, none of us are complete right?
Neither do I believe that the deacons are uneducated paganistic hooligans as much of the comments around this web blog seem to suggest. I have my respect for them and I think they have the right qualifications and the anointing to carry out their duties.
At the same time I don't believe that the brothers and sisters who are behind this blog and fronting this movement for transparency are evil and wrong doers either. Take for example, I know Br Hong Meng. By listening to his teachings in FGB, I think he has sound principles. He's a good brother.
However until this point I am still unclear of actual motives for wanting this movement. And I'm unclear of the current movements by the deacons. This however doesn't change my respect for those who preach the word and who lead the church.
Now 777, one last word to you. I do not know where you get the idea that you have to bow down and beg when you want to make your requests known. But being polite does help and in the Bible, being polite is akin to demonstrating the fruits of the Spirit though it does not specifically mention the word "polite". Begging is certainly not my standard and I don't believe it is a standard for the deacons either. Ask and you shall receive, ask politely and take freely. We're all incomplete one way or another.
Dr 8.
The Story of the Pencil
A boy was watching his grandmother write a letter. At one point, he asked:
"Are you writing a story about what we've done? Is it a story about me?"
His grandmother stopped writing her letter and said to her grandson:
"I am writing about you, actually, but more important than the words is the pencil I'm using. I hope you will be like this pencil when you grow up."
Intrigued, the boy looked at the pencil. It didn't seem very special.
"But it's just like any other pencil I've ever seen."
"That depends on how you look at things. It has five qualities which, if you manage to hang on to them, will make you a person who is always at peace with the world.
"First Quality: you are capable of great things, but you must never forget that there is a hand guiding your steps. We call that hand God, and He always guides us according to His will.
"Second Quality: now and then, I have to stop writing and use a sharpener. That makes the pencil suffer a little, but afterwards, he's much sharper. So you, too, must learn to bear certain pains and sorrows, because they will make you a better person.
"Third Quality: the pencil always allows us to use an eraser to rub out any mistakes. This means that correcting something we did is not necessarily a bad thing; it helps to keep us on the road to justice.
"Fourth Quality: what really matters in a pencil is not its wooden exterior, but the graphite inside. So always pay attention to what is happening inside you.
"Finally, the pencil's Fifth Quality: it always leaves a mark. In just the same way, you should know that everything you do in life will leave a mark, so try to be conscious of that in your every action."
I read the article by AG USA on ‘Church Antagonist’ that CU was encourage ppl to read. After reading, I realize that SP fitted the criteria of an antagonist stated in that article. He is therefore an antagonist against the Church of Jesus Christ. In the article also, there’s a portion on when a pastor should consider resigning. SP should read this and consider leaving, so there will be peace, no more need for all 3 blogs.
Hey Karen
Since you can read with understanding, can you honestly say that you are proud of all the contents in this blog that pertain to the Church? I am not referring to people like me who differ from you and your gang but am referring to your supporters.
And try to be honest about it in your reply.
Dr 8
you are simply good at twisting..i agreed fully with SM for what he/she commented at 4.03pm . My last word to you too, stop twisting.
Hi Dear Karen
I fully support what you have to said at your comment." Reality Check" is confused. And so is Dr 8.
much been said. if cannot move forward, can this be reported to higher Church Bodies that govern all churches. Is there such a thing? have u guys thought of petitioing and getting members signatures to fast tract. so this saga can come to an end.
My Dear Reality Check,
I always teach my children, never to talk to strangers, especially on the internet. I also have said in my address to Cathy that I would not waste my time replying to people I do not know. You my dear, fall into these two categories of people. Can you please give me a good reason why I should spend my precious time replying you? Do you know that by asking me to “try to be honest” you have already given me an impression of your motive behind this question of yours? I may have introduced myself earlier as a Simple Housewife but I certainly did not say I am a Simpleton Housewife. Anyway, thanks for referring to me as the “complicated issues housewife”.
So now, I will give you some complicated issues to work on. Please do some homework if you are sincere in wanting to know answers from me on this blog. By so doing, at least it will show me some sincerity on your part and are genuinely interested in getting answers to something that is bothering you. Then I may have some reasons to break my own rules.
1. What do you mean by “all the contents in this blog that pertain to the Church?” Don’t just simply say “all the contents” and expect me to do the homework for you.
a) State the sentence/s that pertains to the Church, which you are referring to.
b) State the writer of that sentence, the title of the post in which it contains that sentence. If it is a comment by someone, state the Post Title, Name, Date and Time of that comment.
2. Your sentence, “I am not referring to people like me who differ from you and your gang but am referring to your supporters.” I see 3 groups of people here. Group 1: people like you. Group 2: people who differ from you, like me and my gang. Group 3: my supporters. (I know who the Group 2 people are.)
a) State some examples of how the people like you (Reality Check), differ from me (Karen). State your views which differs from mine. Eg. I have written to the Church Auditors in support of that Special Audit which Hong Meng requested for. Do you support that call? I questioned at the AGM, why a few church ministries are registered in church staff’s personal names. Do you agree with such a practice in church? I am still waiting for the accounts for the Extended Ministries for year 2007 which was promised to us by the Church Treasurer last AGM. Are you also wanting to see it?
b) State who my supporters are. As far as I know, I am not standing for election to be a Deaconess in the coming AGM. I also have not applied for a job to work full time in church and I certainly will not be a potential candidate to take over any Pastor’s position. Please explain to me why you think I need supporters.
To get an idea of how to work out your questions to me, read Hong Meng’s letter to our two Church Auditors dated 20 December 2008 and posted here on the same date. When one read Hong Meng’s letter, one can immediately know that he spent quite a few hours pondering, researching and then writing it down clearly so that the Auditors know exactly what he is asking for. The time and effort put in by him, shows his sincerity in wanting to know the truth.
My Dear Reality Check, don’t be surprised by my homework. You obviously do not know me or have attended my Bible Classes before. I never walk into a class unprepared and without notes for the students. I spend about 8-10 hrs a week preparing for 1 SCG lesson each week. I do not walk in and drop a bomb and then leave. The students who have attended “MY FAITH” classes with me can tell you, I required them to do their homework and memorize the Scriptures each week before I will sign on their Booklets. As such, I expect you to do the same for me, if you are sincere in wanting to know my answer.
However, I also have an easy way out for you. Make an appointment to meet me face to face and we can have a chat over English Tea – my treat. But I have to bring someone with me because it is not safe these days to meet strangers from the internet. You can email me at kckclim@gmail.com. I am only extending this invitation to you Reality Check, because I trust that you are a genuine Calvarite like myself and don’t give me the excuse that I want to witch hunt you for some reason.
Just to let you know, I have a full calendar this whole week. Today is my maid’s birthday and we went out for dinner to celebrate. KC just called from the airport, he just arrived home from Perth so no time to blog anymore tonight. Have an appointment tomorrow morning and then take my daughter for follow-up with the eye doctor in the afternoon. Had a little pox removed yesterday. Friday morning will be spent with Soon Ling and a Prayer Warrior friend praying for our church. Then children will be off to tuition class and piano class. Have to attend CNY dinners this weekend and another TTG prayer meeting on Sunday afternoon.
Why am I telling you this? Just to let you know that we are real people, living in a reality world. We have responsibilities to fulfill and we do take effort to try to squeeze time from here and there to answer to people like you, and I do hope you are genuine.
Friends of PG
I noticed that quite a number claim to know PG or are friends with him.
I am not questioning this but would like to define it somewhat.
There are many levels to a relationship,
Right from superficial to the very deep.
I would accept that someone knows him if he has
worked DIRECTLY (not thru someone else) for at least 10 YEARS
and have disagreed with him
on issues that MATTER much to him.
Then you can say you know him.
Hi
I wonder if our 2 auditors have started on the special audit yet. I know many of us church members have emailed them to request for the special audit. Or is Bro. Tam Kok Went too busy in the Financial Governance Task Force to handle the special audit? Speaking of which, I don't really understand why the members in the FGTF are so not independent...they consist of 2 deacons, 1 current auditor and 1 ex auditor along with 2 other church members. Why 2 deacons when these ppl are the very ones who were not transparent enough to the members abt how church funds have been handled all this while? I really don't understand.
Spiritual Abuse
My beloved Brothers and Sisters in Christ;
Speaking from the apostolic perspective, having received the mandate from Jesus Christ to build the church, I feel it's my duty to bring certain spiritual matters before you for judgment. Our goal in this article is to help abusers and the victims of abuse to recognize God's voice and see the wisdom of rejecting the heresy practiced by the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus day.
Many people naturally ask what spiritual abuse has to do with the ability to hear God's voice. This is a logical question considering the mindset of today's Christian. But as we shall see spiritual abuse is one of the most powerful weapons Satan has in his arsenal. Throughout the eons of time Satan has successfully hindered our ability to hear God's voice while at the same time convincing Christians they can't hear from God directly. This deception has resulted in the vast majority of Christians actually believing that pastors and other the Christian leaders are the only people that can hear the voice of God, and nothing could be further from the truth. God does not speak to one person more than another.
Understanding spiritual abuse is a reality within the Christian community makes it imperative to our spiritual well being that we know what hinders us from hearing God's voice. And knowing what hinders us is equally important to knowing what helps us to hear His voice. And so the wise Christian will make themselves aware of Satan's devices. In this situation ignorance of the enemy's devices can have a devastating effect on our life.
Spiritual abuse can be likened to domestic abuse or domestic violence, in that there is an abuser and there are victims. But when confronted both sides deny the existence of the abusive situation and this denial actually protects and perpetuates the abuse. But as Spirit filled Christians we must realize denial and deception are two of the main demonic forces that give power to every kind of spiritual abuse.
So let us concede that hearing and obeying God's voice in the midst of abuse and denial is very difficult, and many abused Christians find it impossible. Scripture reveals that Jesus spoke harsh words to the
Pharisees; He used the words Woe unto you Pharisees and Scribes at times, referring to the spiritual abuse the practiced. These instances of Jesus open contempt for spiritually abusive leaders should serve as a warning to the leaders of today's Church.
When we study the actions of the Pharisees we find a remarkable similarity to spiritually abusive church leaders today. So below we have listed a few of the main characteristics of churches that operate in spiritual abuse:
Authority Focused
Leaders that constantly remind themselves and the congregation of their position of authority practice spiritual abuse. They tend to be preoccupied most of the time talking about how everyone is supposed to be in submission to them. The fact that they are eager to place people under them should serve as dire warning to us. In many spiritually abusive churches the pastor and leadership is far removed from the people.
Jesus on the other hand is our perfect example of how spiritual leaders should see his or her position among the people. Matt 7:28,29 says, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law. The people could sense His authority and His concern for them and He always gave the people hope. A true leader rarely talks about his or her authority instead they concentrate their efforts on exhorting people to live a holy and righteous life while giving them hope.
Preoccupation with Performance
Churches that operate in spiritual abuse place a much higher importance on performance than on grace. To them works are more important than being transformed into Christlikeness by the power of the Holy Ghost.
In spiritually abusive congregations pastors often demand members spend time performing works. Or they may send a deacon to reprimand someone for missing service or coming in late. Their attention is more on the clock than on the people.
Keep in mind that under a pharisaical form of spiritual abuse performance is demanded above grace and transformation everyone either does what they are told or they face shame and embarrassment from the church leadership.
Rules are hidden
Spiritually abusive churches control people by rules. But it's the hidden rules that are most powerful, injurious, and unhealthy. For example, Don't say anything contrary to the pastor's teaching or the church leadership. When this situation arises the person speaking up is marked as rebellious. If we speak against any of the projects the pastor wants were automatically outcast, cut off from the congregation
and accused of having a devil or being a person that doesn't hear from God and doesn't understand the Word.
By not speaking those hidden rules, they are kept from being exposed for what they are: a control mechanism that manipulates people. The Bible calls manipulation witchcraft.
Unbalanced Approach to Living the Christian Life This aspect of spiritual abuse generally appears in two distinct and extremely dangerous modes: First authority in the Church is based on education, intellect or financial support rather than being filled with the Holy Ghost. The other common mode is that authority in the congregation is guided by emotions, feelings and experiences, once again leaving out the necessity of being filled with the Holy Ghost. In many spiritually abusive churches authority over the congregation is given to the person that writes the biggest check.
None of these abusive situations acknowledge obedience and sensitivity to the Holy Spirit, nor the gifts and calling on a persons life. It limits God to act only in ways that can be explained, proven and acceptable to the pastor.
Another equally devastating abuse teaches that members of the congregation can only know and understand God by what the leaders tell them because only the leaders are given revelation from God which is false, and could not be further from the truth.
Fear and Suspicion
In the spiritual abusive church there is a fear or paranoia that outsiders will not understand their revelation of the Word (the twisting of scripture) and will persecute them (reveal the existing
abuse). This fear and suspicion builds a wall around them and creates isolation that enables the pastor to be accountable to no one. And this enables him or her to have more control over the people and abuse them as he or she pleases.
Within the abusive church, there is a hidden communication system that funnels information about its members that are not in full support of the leaders directions and teachings. The leaders fear exposure. While cloaking their evil with scripture (Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. Hebrew 13:17), they are quick to mark as being rebellious and discipline anyone who questions their decisions or
speaks contrary to their teachings.
Delusion of Grandeur
One of the strongest footholds Satan has in a spiritually abusive church is the belief that they alone are right, that everyone who does not fully agree with their teachings and methods are wrong or live a watered-down gospel.
Most often the pastor is not accountable to an overseeing leadership and in cases the oversight committee is hand picked by the pastor and they act as his or her yes? ?? people. You will find that often other churches are criticized, even from the pulpit.
Another characteristic of spiritual abuse is often expressed in scaring and humiliating the people. Marking people who do not adhere to the pastor's standards is a powerful method to scare and humiliate the congregation.
There are many types of spiritual abuse within todays church. Many of which deal with finances or shall we say special financial favors for the pastor. One pastor I recently heard about told the members of their congregation that each head of household would be required to give an extra RM175.00 per month to pay off the pastor's van. Another took thousands of dollars to purchase special things for himself.
Here are two examples that happened in an abusive church:
Demanding that everyone give offerings and pay tithes. Some abusive pastors resort to threatening members of their congregation by exposing their non compliance to other members of the congregation
In spiritually abusive churches mostly everyone reflects the pastor's self-righteousness. There is an understanding that if you leave that church, you will be cursed.
Within the past several months this topic has been foremost in my heart. Crying sincere tears of compassion for those who are in bondage to spiritual abuse has caused me to be on my face before the Lord seeking mercy for the victims and the abusers. So today from the heart of God I say enough is enough. To the abuser, I say, Stop and repent! To the abused, Come and let me heal you says the Lord of Hosts. And to the rest of the Body of Christ, God says, Open your eyes to this cancer
and rid My Body of it.
May the Grace, Peace, Mercy, Love and Joy rest upon you and your house all the days of your life.
The Apostle
Eze 3:16 And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
Eze 3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Eze 3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Eze 3:22 And the hand of the LORD was there upon me; and he said unto me, Arise, go forth into the plain, and I will there talk with thee.
Eze 3:23 Then I arose, and went forth into the plain: and, behold, the glory of the LORD stood there, as the glory which I saw by the river of Chebar: and I fell on my face.
Eze 3:24 Then the spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet, and spake with me, and said unto me, Go, shut thyself within thine house.
Eze 3:25 But thou, O son of man, behold, they shall put bands upon thee, and shall bind thee with them, and thou shalt not go out among them:
Eze 3:26 And I will make thy tongue cleave to the roof of thy mouth, that thou shalt be dumb, and shalt not be to them a reprover: for they are a rebellious house.
Eze 3:27 But when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth, and thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; He that heareth, let him hear; and he that forbeareth, let him forbear: for they are a rebellious house.
The Crusader
The Kingdom of Heaven
To Reality Check again,
I wrote in haste last night and left out this important thing. Please sign off your questions to me in your real name or one you are currently identified as, together with a short description of yourself or the ministry you are serving or have served in Church. Eg KC Lim served as Treasurer for Special Evangelistic Meetings, Karen served as SCG teacher, WHM served in Men’s Ministry, ect. It is only fair to those whom you will be quoting from, to know exactly who is he/she who is pointing a finger at them. Don’t be like Dr 8, who now claims to be retired and have no interest in spending the rest of his/her life looking for cobwebs in Senior Pastor's drawers. That is not an introduction of oneself and it shows no sincerity in wanting to seek an amicable closure to this whole issue.
The reason for this is, I need to be cautious of who you are and what your real motive is. As stated by KC earlier and I quote, "They may be SP's enemies using this situation to split CC. I strongly believe that if anyone is for SP will stand by him and defend him openly like in the case of our BOD." In your case of course, is not to defend SP but our Church, as you have stated in your question.
By identifying yourself, you are responsible for what you write and not just “hit and run”. I also quote KC here, "No one knows their identities or what their real motives are. It is very easy to make baseless allegations and tells lies when a person is unidentified because they do not need to verify and be accountable for what they say. When questioned they shirk from answering by pushing us to ask the pastors and deacons and worst of all, they conveniently twist our words and actions to suit their agenda." He also asked this question which I hope does not describe you, "Are they insiders or just someone who is out to split our church because of personal vendetta?"
Now if you are uncomfortable to reveal your true identity in public, then write to me personally at the email address given earlier. Let me assure you that many have written to us and we have replied to them personally and we have not publicized our correspondences in public and will not do so at all. Members have written to us to check if the Monthly Missions fund collected have been sent to the designated purpose which we checked and confirmed with Pastors and replied, though not our jurisdiction to do so. Members have written to share their concerns about CT which we replied and gave our views. Members have written to scold us which we swallowed quietly. Pastors have written Prophetic Warnings to us, which we seek the Lord for confirmation and I can go on and on. But I must add, all these who have written, wrote in their personal capacity to us which we appreciate and therefore responded appropriately. I hope you will do the same.
Have a good day and God bless you.
The Story of the Eagle
The eagle has the longest life-span of its' species
It can live up to 70 years
But to reach this age,
the eagle must make a hard decision.
In its' 40's
- Its' long and flexible talons can no longer grab prey which serves as food.
- Its' long and sharp beak becomes bent.
- Its' old-aged and heavy wings, due to their thick feathers, become stuck to its' chest and make it difficult to fly
Then, the eagle is left with only 2 options:
die or go through a painful process of change which lasts 150days.
The process requires that the eagle fly to a mountain top and sit on its' nest.
There the eagle knocks its' beaks against a rock until it plucks it out.
After plucking it out, the eagle will wait for a new beak to grow and then it will pluck out its' talons.
When its' new talons grow back, the eagle starts plucking its' old-aged feathers.
And after 5 months, the eagle takes its' famous flight of rebirth and lives for 30 more years.
Why is change needed??????
MANY TIMES, in order to survive we have to start a change process.
We sometimes need to get rid of the old memories habits and other past traditions.
Only freed from past burdens,
can we take advantage of the present.
Disagreeing Without Dividing
Many assemblies today are facing varied winds of possible change. Some traditional points of church life are being questioned, or at least re-evaluated. New methods of witness and worship are being tried. Schedules are being revised to make things a bit easier for time-harassed families.
Not all of us agree on these issues and sub-issues, or even sub-sub-issues. Methods we have found successful, perhaps for many years, are being criticized. Positions we believe to be thoroughly biblical are not seen in the same light by brothers and sisters in Christ. Naturally, we feel compelled to defend our methods and interpretations.
Perhaps others of us, on the other hand, resent what appears to us as intolerance of anything new. We sense a prejudice toward views which fall short of majority acceptance. We resent what we see as a tradition-bound resistance to change.
As born-again, Bible-believing Christians, how should we react to these differences of opinion?
This article is not going to attempt to offer specific answers to every issue confronting assemblies today. Or even to identify such issues. It will not outline methods of discussion or dialogue (though such dialogue is deeply needed). It will urge one attitude for all of us, no matter where we stand. We must, at all times, no matter what the situation, keep loving one another.
Yes, there is a time when some Christians must confront other believers about deviation from truth clearly revealed in the Word of God. Paul was right to criticize Peter's double standard publicly (i.e., in the church). Peter's error could have easily led astray many sincere lambs of Christ.
There is a time for such confrontation. But not all differences of interpretation require a calling to account. And with the wrong timing, such a step--even when needed--can bring much harm.
Christians today need to learn how to disagree, how to teach each other, how to question one another without destroying their fellowship. A difference of views does not need to resemble Paul and Barnabas' dispute over whether John Mark should be given a second chance. That occasion produced "such a sharp disagreement that they parted company" (Acts 15:39).
Christian fellowship should never be sacrificed on an altar of personal argument.
Even when we disagree, or don't quite get along, or see each other as in the wrong, we need to practice the ultimate implication of Christian fellowship--love. None of us has a total grasp on biblical truth; not one of us is always right. Therefore we all need love and understanding.
Jesus said, "All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another" (John 13:35).
"Love is patient, love is kind. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres" (1 Cor. 13:4,7).
It is easy to show love when we are all in agreement, but when we interpret the same inerrant Scriptures differently--that's when we need to love each other the most.
Disagreeing without dividing--that is a challenge many of us face today. Even though we don't see every issue through the same eyes, we can work together in harmony.
The apostle Paul shares words apropos to this situation: "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace" (Eph. 4:2-3).
Humility, gentleness, patience, love, peace--all this grows out of the unity only the Holy Spirit can produce. And only through the Spirit can we face our differences without hurting the Body or bringing dishonor to its Head.
God has placed us in local assemblies where we can serve the Savior, be nourished in our faith and enjoy precious fellowship with our dear brothers and sisters in Christ. None of us wants to disrupt that scene, and we all recognize that we need each other's presence and encouragement. We realize that "the eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don't need you!' and the head cannot say to the feet, 'I don't need you!'" (1 Cor. 12:21).
We need each other. Unity always depends on a true diversity.
We are committed to our individual assemblies and have no intention of "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together." We are prepared to do whatever we can to maintain the assembly's health and efficiency for Christ. As part of this, we must deal with thorny questions in a Christlike way. We must not compromise or accommodate ourselves to worldly thinking.
But it is just as important that we face our differences in love. We must not label the other person as "too progressive," or "too traditional" and automatically assume he or she is guilty of misinterpretation. Rather, we must, in love, take the time to listen, to give the benefit of the doubt and to reconsider our own position.
Are we sure we have not misunderstood the Scriptures?
Disagreement doesn't have to lead to division. But it should lead to open, honest dialogue.
"The greatest of these is love" (1 Cor. 13:13).
Ha ha Karen,
One salient point...you CHOSE to reply to me in the first place in your previous comment...I never asked you to!!
Now when it suits you, such a long long long complicated defensive reply from a self-proclaimed simple housewife....come on, WHO are you kidding?
I have flushed you out!!
Oh Karen dear,
No one in their right mind would want to meet up with such a vicious group of persons as the TTG and BTW you would be very surprised to find out who I am. Now,BEFORE you and your minions conjecture to high heavens about my identity, as the Lord is my witness, I am not SP nor his family member, I am not the BOD, pastors, church employees etc nor their family members.
I am a mere Calvarite who is very very happy to have flushed you out to prove my point that you turn and twist whichever way you deem fit and that you are not SIMPLE at all but are every bit as conniving as your replies to me are.
Check out my comment about Melewar in CU BTW....
Sis Karen, let's just ignore ignoramuses like Reality Check here who seems to think he/she is a know it all and better than the rest of the church members. I sense so much pride and arrogance in Reality Check's comments...his/her evil words is certainly not from the Lord but from the devil himself..let him/her reap in his/her own sad life and let God deal with him/her.
My dear Reality Check,
I have always been up front from the beginning. Everyone who has been following this saga knows me from the start so don’t give yourself so much credit. Don’t be so egoistic too. None of us TTG people are interested to know who you are or what you have to say. All the more so, now that you have identified that you are a “nobody” in church. You see my dear, the TTG group and I have no issue with you (or anyone else like you) if you are just an ordinary member like us. What we want is answers from our SP and the BOD. If you are not them, then your opinion and what you have to say here holds no water. It does not bring us one step closer to even seeing a small possibility of a resolution to this saga. In short, it is a waste of time and we have better things to do and more important people to speak to.
Like I said before and I say it again, what you think of us the TTG group is of no concern to us at all. We are more concerned about what Jesus thinks of us. So you can write what you will, say what you like, do what pleases you, we take no offense and to put it simply, it does not bother us one bit and certainly makes no difference to us as Christians and as individuals at all.
For the record here, it was out of politeness on my part, since you addressed your question to me, that I took the trouble to try to get to know you better and thereby give you better answers than just “one liners” or cliché answers but it is quite obvious that you do not want truthful answers. You just want to “flush me out” as you said. So your motive is quite clear to us all who read with understanding here.
One more thing, I have always been simple but I have never been a simpleton. What did you expect me to be like? Naïve or stupid? Go check with PO who was my youth pastor when I was a Christ Ambassador back then and also go check with SK who knows me since I was in school uniform. I am surprised that you did not go check out first, who this simple housewife is. I hope you have learned an important lesson here - Never judge a book by it's cover. That's why homework is very important when you want reality answers.
Anyway continue to enjoy your blogging and God bless you.
people like Reality Check are the real antagonists to the people of God and an embarassment to the Christian society. If ppl like him are supposedly supporters of the PG, I'm not suprised PG is like that! Birds of a feather flock together!
Hello Reality check
Stop twisting....what you have to said are totally irrelevant to the caused of Christ, and God is Good to TTG and Karen and concerned members.. and the TTG and concerned members need not to resort to wickedness like the way you did.
To : Karen
We as a group of young supporter are behind you and praying for you, you are such a intelligent and honest person; we fully support what you had said in your comment to "reality check".
BTW, if she/he ever dare to entangle with Melewar group, we believe she/he will have to face a law suit from the mgmt of Melewar, hope they dont play-play by quoting Melewar.
Karen,
Dont worry about Reality Check. This person will soon realize the Reality and truth of the whole thing and see who will have the last laugh. Haha!
Dear Reality Check,
When you work yourself up, you loose your sanity. Why not just quieten down instead of engaging in words for the shake of getting over one another.
I just hope more of Dr. Vijay(s) are blogging here.
Love in Christ.
If Reality Check is a real gentleman or lady he or she would identify himself or herself instead of attacking Karen and using unfair and unkind words and sending a barrage of accusations against TTG here. So who is doing the character assassination with such comments?
Why be evasive just take up Karen's offer and be real? After all you say that you are "Reality Check" so be real with Karen if you don't want to be real here.
If you are just trying to create trouble here and do not hold any position in CC to be able to influence pastors and BOD to resolve this saga, then like what Karen remarked it is pointless to discuss with you further.
We note you are not being sincere to help resolve matters. Just throwing in a spanner here!
Let us forget abt cowards like Reality check and focus back on the issues at hand. Ppl like him are a lost cause and are pathetically sad.
We the supporters of truth and transparency are awaiting patiently during this current "quietness" for a leadership change in CC. Out with the old, in with the New. We have enough of unloving shepherds and men fearing deacons.
i was shocked to read CU's comments in reply to someone on their blog on January 25, 2009 12:20 AM
"CU's reply to Tim,
If you have read our objective, we do not advocate transperancy.
Btw, one thing about transperancy, God does not practice (it is NOT a best practice in any of God's standards) transperancy. We can't to God and demand tranperancy, we will only receive silence. However God practices TRUTH, FAITH and best of all LOVE."
Accusing God of not practising transparency takes the cake.
They also clearly said they do not advocate transparency.
How to believe people like CU or CK or Charles or WSL, aiyoyo.
God have mercy on them.
Reading what Reality Check has written makes me realize that he/she is more sick than I give him/her credit for! (Shudder!)
My Beloved Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
May I humbly reintroduce myself to those who may be unfamiliar with me. My name is Kelvin T.L. Lim, and used to attend Calvary Church, Kuala Lumpur as a teenager. Growing-up as a youth I gladly involved myself with numerous ministries, programs and activities of the church. And when the (prefect) time arrived, I obediently answered the Lord’s call to my life and entered to the ministry. I now most gladly serve the Lord as a pastor based in Johor Bahru reaching-out and ministering to troubled teens and their parents. It was our beloved Calvary Church, Kuala Lumpur that opened the door and send me out as a missions worker to Bintulu, Sarawak in February 1997 and I have not looked back since.
I am glad that there are many among you who blogs on CT remembers me, and I am sure that those who blogs on CU and CK may know who I am. It is for this reason I am writing to all of you my beloved brothers and sister that it saddens me and grieves my heart that our beloved church has come to such spiritual decline and is shamefully torn apart by this whole saga.
This is my position… I stand on the Lord’s side. I take no sides with anyone or with anybody. I have read from all three blogs. Some may say that I do not have the full extent, knowledge or understanding of what has happened. I agree, however, I humble ask that we all take a very close look at all our comments once again. Please, I urge all of you to see that our comments are exactly what the devil our common adversary wants. We are not just voicing out our disappointments, hurts, grievances etc. but we are also accusing, slandering etc. each other. This is a spiritual civil war, and the devil our common adversary is the one who is seated with a stupid grin on his face and in all ways, if possible, enjoying it. We are being mocked by him. Why do we permit him (the devil) this privilege? We are the body of Christ… we are diverse, but united in One Body (1 Corinthians 12:12-27). We are the body of Christ and members individually (12: 27), so how then do we allow ourselves to be ripped apart in this manner? I do agree that a senior pastor and the pastors of any church must immediately bring a devastatingly serious issue of this manner to a closure and must permit and allow the Holy Spirit of God to bring a sense of conviction among themselves (the senior pastor and the pastors), to seek forgiveness from the Lord and to repent of their follies. It is a humbling process that must take immediate effect, however, not just the senior pastor and the pastors; we too must come to that same position, to seek the Lord’s forgiveness and to repent of our own follies. Allowing spiritual inner-healing to take its place individual and corporately. We will have to seek the forgiveness of each other too.
I humbly urge and encourage all of us to move ahead. The blogs on each site have their creditability, but because of some irresponsible individuals, the creditability has lost its original intentions and purposes. I believed that we are all spiritually mature, and I am championing a spiritual cause for closure… forgiveness, repentance, inner-healing, restoration, rebuilding and moving forward.
If anyone who wishes to contact me, I may be reached at my given e-mail address: kelvinwazhere@gmail.com. Blessed ya.
3Rs… Real, Realistic and Relevant!
Kelvin T.L. Lim
Dear Karen,
No worries, we who have met you know what you are like. I am praying for you and your family and all TTG group.
Take care.
Gospel of Conflict and Trespass Resolution.
We have many times perhaps at least one time goes thru this passage of the bible about trespass against fellow brothers.
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
I agreed with Simon Peter that the “MAIN CAUSES” of this fault should be within the fellow brothers alone as prescribe by the remedy of Jesus Christ. Unfortunately because of stubbornness and disobedience this fault has resort to the greater height of involving other “CAUSAL” to the “MAIN CAUSES” of the problems. By inviting more participants and further witnesses to the words so that the resolution of that fault can be smoothen out. With the influence of the devil and adversaries in us to began further evil thru, ”malicious lies”, “confusion”, “disorientation”, “stumble-block”, “fear and pride”, “ anger and hatred” , “in-security and worried” and many other vile of evil weapon to transform converge the truth and misunderstood the scripture and brought ourselves to our own damnation. Remember “evil begat evils” only “Christ Transformation” we will be able to overcome.
Since Matt 1816-17 order has not being place and fully satisfy to find the peace and agreed because either party stay quiet and refuse to barge to move, make right and peace with fellow brothers and spirit amongst our soul. The battle will rage on towards the church of Jesus Christ which means it has to be made known to all brothers and sisters in the Church of Jesus Christ. (This may also include other brothers and sisters in Christ because of the same body of God ill-respect of denomination of assembly) That is what is happening even as I am sharing this “Gospel of Conflict and Trespass Resolution”. That why the current elements has been widely spread outbreak to fulfill the “Gospel of Conflict and Trespass Resolution”.
I pray that we will not as it we will, if we did not quickly resolve this matters of important to the glory of God and HIS highest urgency. The coming matters will be as order of Matt 18:17, “let him be unto thee as heathen and publican”. Which times have been given both the “MAIN CAUSES” for forgiveness to come at peace to reconcile and establish both party to the forgiveness of God mercy? If this avoidance and reconciliation still persist please be “aware” or “beware” that the heathen and the publican treatment will comes in which all to the hassle of the laws and legislation, suit and legal claim will seem to be the right manner in the biblical implication. Not by our will but by the order of the court of Jesus Christ as the ultimate judge to our enmity, riches and glory of God. Thus division will comes in satisfying “The Sword” that Jesus Christ will bring into the congregation that disobedience to his calling. As what God profess in Jer 23:1-4 which conclude in v4 that at the end he will establish a new pastor or shepherd to look unto the sheep that are fear, confuse, slacking, dismay and stumble.
By the order of Matt 18:18-19 we must come and reconcile quickly and agreed this peace accord of plan TO THE GLORY OF GOD. Whatever is bind in earth; heaven will bind too and whatever forgiveness it is on each humble professes will be forgiven too by Father in Heaven.
Similarity if we do not forgive others and loves one another by his covenant God too will not forgive us.
So love and forgive one another as CHRIST has FORGIVEN US!
The Sword
Conflict resolution?
Why are biblical conflict resolution methods so rarely used among Christians? The Bible outlines very clear steps in Matthew 18:15-17. We are these steps so often ignored? Why is it so tempting to skip to the last step, disassociation, without going through the correct process?
JOEL 1:13-18
13 Put on sackcloth and lament, you priests;
wail, you ministers of the altar.
Come, pass the night in sackcloth,
you ministers of my God!
Grain-offering and drink-offering
are withheld from the house of your God.
14 Sanctify a fast,
call a solemn assembly.
Gather the elders and all the inhabitants of the land to the house of the Lord your God,
and cry out to the Lord.
15 Alas for the day!
For the day of the Lord is near,
and as destruction from the Almighty it comes.
16 Is not the food cut off before our eyes,
joy and gladness from the house of our God?
17 The seed shrivels under the clods,
the storehouses are desolate;
the granaries are ruined
because the grain has failed.
18 How the animals groan!
The herds of cattle wander about
because there is no pasture for them;
even the flocks of sheep are dazed.
What? CU & CK don't advocate transperancy? I really hope PG and the BOD knows about their blogs. They say they are not but they do sound like PG's konco-konco. Someone should tell poor PG & BOD that these two whoever they are, are really making our church leadership look like fools.
Resolving Church Conflicts
The Lord’s plan for his church is flawless. As individual members of his body, however, we are in the process of growth; we have not reached a state of perfection. There is no such thing as a flawless family or perfect work environment. Nor is there a perfect congregation.
Problems will arise within a church for a number of reasons. For instance, individuals will have different opinions. We must “speak the same thing” in matters of doctrine (1 Cor. 1:10; cf. 2 Jn. 9-10), but there must be latitude in other areas. Different stages of spiritual development, personality differences, misunderstandings—all of these things can contribute to tension. While we recognize that personal friction is inevitable, the New Testament commands us to work towards the resolution of all conflicts.
In Philippians 4:2-3, Paul exhorted the church at Philippi. He wrote:
“I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind in the Lord. Yea, I beseech thee also, my true yokefellow, help these women, for they labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow-workers, whose names are in the book of life.”
The cause of the problem between these women is unknown; however, Paul’s admonition to unity contains some key aspects for conflict resolution. Consider the following points.
1.The situation was urgent. The word translated “exhort” is parakaleo, literally “to call near, beside, into the proximity of.” It is rendered “appeal to, urge, exhort, encourage” (Arndt and Gingrich, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, p. 617). Paul entreated them to resolve their difficulties. One must not “let the sun go down” upon his wrath (Eph. 4:26).
2.Paul exhorts both individuals. “I exhort Euodia, and I exhort Syntyche, to be of the same mind” (v. 2). Problems can be resolved when both sides are willing to sit down and work towards reconciliation. Most significantly, this calls for both sides to desire resolution. Offended parties may never agree on the nature of the blame, or the offense. But their desire should be to move forward with sincerity, humility, and love. Attitude plays a major role in solving problems (cf. Eph. 4:1-3).
The principles for dealing with personal grievances are set out by the Lord in Matthew 5:23ff and 18:15-17. When a brother is aware that a spiritual sibling has something against him (i.e., a genuine concern), then that brother is obligated to initiate contact to resolve the problem (Mt. 5:23).
On the other hand, the person who has an actual complaint (i.e., not a petty grievance) against a brother, is obligated to remedy the conflict as well. The stand-offish gripe, “he didn’t come to me,” is neither biblical nor practical. Both the offender and the offended are required to seek out the other so that these types of situations do not remain unaddressed.
3.Paul looks for intervention. “Yea, I beseech thee also, true yokefellow, help these women” (v. 3). Paul encouraged this faithful member of the church in Philippi to give assistance. He did not recommend that either member fire a shot of accusation, followed by a membership move to another church. Although this tactic is faddish, it resolves nothing.
Noteworthy is the fact that Paul addressed this mediator as a “true yokefellow” (i.e., an authentic co-worker in the Lord). Similarly, in Galatians 6:1-2, Paul advised the spiritually minded to restore those overtaken in a trespass. Some people are more capable in dealing with volatile crises. Others may get caught up in a “feeding frenzy” of excitement and controversy, assuming the worst of the elders, the preacher, or other members. A qualified person can assist in problem-solving by focusing on resolution. He will not become part of the problem. As the apostle Paul indicated, a capable intermediary may be able to make a positive contribution in settling a conflict.
4.Paul notes that the souls of people are at stake. “Yea, I beseech thee also, true yokefellow, help these women, for they labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow-workers, whose names are in the book of life” (v. 3). The work of the church suffers as problems go unresolved. Attitudes of hostility and resentment have no place in the Lord’s church. We all are trying to live for Christ. Can we not maintain that perspective?
Christian unity is the product of Christianity in practice. Through prayer, and the application of texts like Philippians 4:2-3, God’s people can all work and worship in unity; the bond that holds us together is love (Col. 3:14). We will have a perfect environment in heaven. Until then, the Lord expects us to work out our problems—staying focused on heaven.
To Anonymous 3.30pm - Resolving Church Conflicts.
Pray you tell us who should act as the "Apostle Paul" in our case?
NECF? AG Council? AG USA? Police? Bank Negara?
Pray you tell us who should be our "Apostle Paul"?
Greeting Brother in Christ JSK,
Peace Be to you!
Prayer is the most important thing on earth especially we are not yet perfect in the will of God. In that matters our spirit is still reside in this damnation of the flesh. Even as I say now our flesh will seem to deceive oneself with the attitude of egoism, pride, proud and self-righteous. This is what I mean, pray in that sense that if it through the will of God that HE will have mercy on us and his wondrous grace also cover us all from evil, the adversaries in us if I should refer the certain characteristic that are mention a bit of evil above will be banished within us thru the transformation of Jesus Christ thru the Spirit of God in us. If the spirit in us, JUST ALLOWS the Spirit of God to work alongside with love on the peace plan, everything will be in according to goodness of God Will. Unfortunately it DID NOT!
We pray that God will send a mediator as the “FIRST DEFEND WITHIN US” fail in the “Church Conflict Resolution”. We pray because we TRUST God will rewrite the order of HIS Will so that everything will comes out good and pleasant to his eyes. No, we prefer to rely on the flesh as in man to clear the weed rather than God to separate the “weed” and “wheat”. Since we are subject to as his children and heir to his Kingdom our obedience will make us a blessing to his glory and honor to his Kingdom. Unfortunately the peace accord TAUGHT by Jesus Christ in Matthew 18:15-17 does not work out so we need a mediator. Why because we do not believe in “GOD TO MEDIATES”, we DO NOT believe in God’s words in that similar sense we can’t see him, there is no more love in us anymore. Since we do not allow the Spirit of God to mediate finally we allow man to arbitrate the situation.
Now Bro JSK, we need your prayer if you believe in FAITH [Heb 11:6]to ask God to send in a good arbiter to mediates the peace accord. Let not the Devil tempts the mediator process and lest in that critical sense made the assembly and presence church of God divides. I don’t know who God will send maybe the NECF, AG Council, AG USA, Police, Bank Negara, Prime Minister, your mother, my brothers and sisters, you and maybe God himself. So start believing and pray that the Holy Spirit will send a helper to help and lead us out of this mess that we brought ourselves into. We should start praying NOW that God will reveal to us who will be the “Apostle Paul” be?
I am NOT “GOD”!
Resolving Church Conflicts
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge" -Proverbs 1:7
In other words, in order for someone to know the Lord, he should FEAR HIM. Or to say it differently, IF SOMEONE DOES NOT FEAR THE LORD, HE HASN'T EVEN STARTED TO KNOW HIM. He may know the Scriptures very well, he may have accurate and detailed knowledge of its doctrines, yet if he doesn't fear the Lord, though he may know the Scriptures, he doesn't know the Lord that wrote the Scriptures. Knowledge of the Scriptures without fear of God is not knowledge of God. This becomes knowledge of God only when it passes from the mind to the heart. As Proverbs 2:1-5 tells us:
Proverbs 2:1-5
"My son, if you receive my words, and treasure my commands within you, so that you incline your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding; yes, if you cry out for discernment, and lift up your voice for understanding, if you seek her as silver, and search for her as for hidden treasures; THEN you will understand the fear of the LoRd, and find the knowledge of God."
It is the heart that needs to apply understanding. It is the heart that needs to bow to the Lord and it is the hearts that should open, admitting Christ to reign in them. Only if the Word of God enters our heart, only if the spirit joins the letter, we "will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God".
1. The fear of the Lord: not just a simple respect
The fear of the Lord is many times understood as a respect. However, it is not just a simple respect. The respect there may be between equals is not the same with the respect towards a higher one. A subject of a kingdom, does not respect his king, as he may respect his colleagues. Even if he has full boldness before the throne, as we, through the blood of Christ, have before the throne of God, he continues to be a subject before the King, and the one that sits on the throne continues to be the King. Fear of the Lord means that our hearts fully sense who we are, who is He that sits on the throne and how much higher is He from us. As Jeremiah 10:6-7 says:
Jeremiah 10:6-7
"Inasmuch as there is none like You, O Lord. You are great, and Your name is great in might. Who would not fear You, O King of the nations?"
and Revelation 15:4
"Who shall not fear You, O Lord and glorify Your name?"
Also Malachi 1:6
"A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If then I am the Father where is my honor? And if I am a Master, where is my fear? Says the Lord of hosts"
(NKJV-KJV)
and Jeremiah 5:22-24
"Do you not fear Me? Says the Lord. Will you not tremble at My presence, who have placed the sand as the bound of the sea, by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass beyond it? And though its waves toss to and fro, yet they cannot prevail; Though they roar, yet they cannot pass over it. But this people has a defiant and rebellious heart; They have revolted and departed. They do not say in their heart, Let us now fear the Lord our God, who gives rain, both the former and the latter, in its season. He reserves for us the appointed weeks of the harvest."
Psalms 33:6-9
"By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses. Let all the earth fear the Lord; Let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of Him. For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast."
Really who will not fear the Lord? Who will not bow before Him. HE MADE US AND THE WHOLE UNIVERSE. EVERYTHING, SEEN OR UNSEEN, WAS MADE BY HIS OWN HAND. Knowledge of the Scriptures without fear of God will definitely lead to pride (I Corinthians 8:1) and the one that just knows that he has full boldness before the throne, without fearing the One that sits on the throne, he will go to Him, like the Pharisee of Luke 18:
Luke 18:9-14
"Also he spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself. "God, I thank you that I am not like other men - extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess." And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, "God, be merciful to me a sinner!" I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.""
It is the spirit that gives life. It is the pure in the heart that will see God (Matthew 5:8) and it is those that fear the Lord the ones to whom He is pleased (Psalms 147:11).
2. Boldness and the fear of the Lord in the New Testament
A view that many, implicitly or explicitly, hold about the fear of God is that it has been somehow ceased by the work of the Lord Jesus Christ. They probably confuse the boldness that Christ gave us before the throne with the fear towards the One that is on the throne. However it is one thing to have, as we have, boldness before the King and entirely another to not fear the King. As Isaiah 33:6 tells us:
Isaiah 33:6
"The fear of the Lord is His treasure"
The fear of the Lord is a TREASURE whose absence makes any boldness before the throne, arrogance. Turning to the work of Jesus Christ, the boldness he obtained, not only did not abolish the fear of God but also I believe it cannot work without it. Without it, it becomes arrogance, Pharisaism. That's why the fear of the Lord has its own position both in the New and the Old Testament. Really, starting from Acts 9:31 we read:
Acts 9:31
"Then the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria had peace and were edified. And walking IN THE FEAR OF THE LORD and in the comfort of the holy spirit, they were multiplied."
I Peter 2:17
"Honor all. Love the brotherhood. FEAR GOD. Honor the king."
II Corinthians 7:1
"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness IN THE FEAR OF GOD."
Colossians 3:22
"Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, FEARING GOD."
Cornelious, the first Gentile at whose home the gospel was preached, was a man that feared God. As Acts 10:1-2 tells us:
Acts 10:1-2
"There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one WHO FEARED GOD with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always."
and as Peter said in Acts 10:34-35
Acts 10:34-35
"Then Peter opened his mouth and said: "In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. BUT IN EVERY NATION WHOEVER FEARS HIM AND WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS IS ACCEPTED BY HIM""
The fear of the Lord is not the reverse of boldness before the throne. What is the reverse is cowardice and it is this that the Lord removed. We are no longer coming before God's throne being afraid, cowardly, but with boldness and fear of God.
3. The fear of the Lord: A fountain of blessings and life
The fear of the Lord is a topic of special emphasis in God's Word as the many times is referred there show. Also it is a topic that is connected with many blessings and promises, as it can be seen from the passages that we give below, and which we would suggest that the reader studies carefully one by one.
So starting from Psalms we read:
Psalms 34:9
"Oh fear the Lord, you His saints! There is no want to those who fear Him"
Psalms 34:7
"Angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him, and delivers them"
Psalms 112:1-2
"Praise the Lord! Blessed is the man who fears the Lord, who delights greatly in His commandments. His descendants will be mighty on earth;"
Psalms 25:12
"Who is the man that fears the Lord? Him shall He teach in the way that he should choose.
(NKJV-RSV)
Psalms 25:14
"The secret of the Lord is with those who fear Him, and He will show them His covenant"
Psalms 31:19
"Oh, how great is your goodness, which you have laid up for those who fear you, which you have prepared for those who trust in you in the presence of the sons of men!"
Psalms 33:18
"Behold the eye of the Lord is on those who fear Him, On those who hope in His mercy"
Psalms 85:9
"Surely His salvation is near to those who fear Him, that glory may dwell in our land"
Psalms 103:11
"For as the heavens are high above the earth, So great is His mercy toward those who fear Him;"
Psalms 103:13
"As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him"
Psalms 103:17
"But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children."
Psalms 111:4-5
"He has made His wonderful works to be remembered; The Lord is gracious and full of compassion. He has given food to those who fear Him; He will ever be mindful of His covenant."
Psalms 115:13
"He will bless those who fear the Lord, both small and great"
Psalms 128:1-4
"Blessed is every one who fears the Lord, who walks in His ways. When you eat the labor of your hands, you shall be happy, and it shall be well with you. Your wife shall be like a fruitful vine in the very heart of your house; Your children like olive plants all around your table. Behold, thus shall the man be blessed who fears the Lord."
Psalms 145:19
"He will fulfill the desire of those who fear Him; He also will hear their cry and save them."
Proverbs 10:27
"The fear of the Lord prolongs days"
Proverbs 14:26
"In the fear of the Lord there is strong confidence, and His children will have a place of refuge"
Proverbs 14:27
"The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, to turn one away from the snares of death."
Proverbs 15:33
"The fear of the Lord is the instruction of wisdom, and before honor is humility."
Proverbs 16:6
"In mercy and truth atonement is provided for iniquity; and by the fear of the Lord one departs from evil."
Proverbs 19:23
"The fear of the Lord leads to life, and he who has it will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil."
Proverbs 22:4
"By humility and the fear of the Lord are riches and honor and life."
Proverbs 23:17
"Be in the fear of the Lord all the day"
Ecclesiastes 8:12-13
"Though a sinner does evil a hundred times, and his days are prolonged, yet I surely know that it will be well with those who fear God, who fear before Him. But it will not be well with the wicked; nor will he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he does not fear before God."
Really I don't know of any other topic that is connected with so many promises in God's Word as the fear of God. Of course we should not fear Him only for the promises. Our relationship with Him is not a trading transaction, but a fellowship of love whose aim is to know Him through the door that is called Jesus Christ. It is he that prepared everything that was required for our entrance to the throne.
The Sword
Dear CT Readers
Lately, we have been receiving many postings of scripture verses and extracts of articles
as “Comments”. Some of these are written by the readers themselves but many are merely “cut and paste” from online bibles and Christian articles from various sources. Although not all, most have no relevance to the issues being discussed presently.
Much as we appreciate your time and efforts in posting those verses and articles, we would appreciate it if you could follow these simple guidelines:-
1. Where your postings are extracts of articles, please attach the link to those online articles or provide us the name and address of the original publisher or author. This is to enable us to write to the publisher or author for their consent to publish the work in CT. As Christians, we do not want to infringe on the copyright owned by the original publisher or author.
For posting of this nature, please do not publish under “Comments” but instead write to us at calvarytoday@gmail.com. As soon as we obtain the consent of the publisher or owner, we will publish the article or the link in Berita Calvary.
2. Where you are posting scripture verses, please elaborate on the relevance to the issues at hand. Otherwise, we will only publish at our discretion. Be reminded not to post scripture verses for the purposes of ‘attacking” another fellow brother/sister-in-Christ because God’s Word is not intended to be used carelessly.
3. Where you have a word from the Lord to the readers, please post with your real name and not under “Anonymous” or pseudo names. God always use real people to boldly declare His word or message. He never sends anonymous people to speak for Him.
If you have a prophecy or a personal word from the Lord for an individual, please write to calvarytoday@gmail.com so that we can re-direct it to the correct person. God’s prophecy or word for an individual is always personal and not meant for others to know, so please do not post as a comment.
Henceforth, we will moderate all future postings of scripture verses, articles or prophecies and only publish them following the above guidelines.
God bless and remember, always blog responsibly.
Yes, yes CT.. well said..I tend to skip those postings full of scripture. Honestly, I dont know what was it all about.
I agree. Sounds like a pastor which has not been given much of an opportunity to preach from the pulpit.
Agree with CT that all these verses are meaningless unless it is elaborated and explained by commentor.
No point to render a whole chunk of Scriptures here. We can't follow what is the trend of thought.
Thank you CT for giving us the guidelines for all to follow.
Dear Brothers in Calvary Today:
This is “my Father House” and I am sure that the fellow/other Bro in Christ with the similar exaltation and Spirit of Christ will therefore allowed us to be encourage, motivate and pursue to the unity of the glorious God Unity and Kingdom thru God’s words. Woes to the tradition and curse of man that tend to be exalt themselves like the Gentiles that practice paganism in the laws of the lawless and encourage the thing of the world.
We are free as Jesus Christ has freely give us so does we freely bless back in one accord in this blessing of his word to people. We must NOT give glory to the man or idol of god when the greatest story on earth the Scripture and Bible are written by Holy Man mooted by the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit? Ultimately given by God Himself. Woes… to the adversaries that try to bond the words of God that is freely give unto us. Copy right only applied to the protection of the world by money and greed for further retrieval of money therein. But with “God voice” it is free, for there is the Spirit of God there is a spirit of liberty and freedom!
My advice to those Christian friends if you called yourself a follower of Jesus Christ try to read and understand the context of the articles that has been posted, sometimes I find it good and in accordance to the Will of God and encouraging with motivating factors in uniting the accord of the midst of splitting church like Calvary Church. So Bro in CU, you should not feel fear and intimidate by the freedom of God’s words in spreading his Holy Commission, Will and Faith in us so that we will be exalt and glorify at the end in Jesus Christ second coming.
This is an open dialogue blog and I am sure all participants are welcome to voice their different views to encourage, edify and encourage fellow Christian to build faith. It is good to have partiality of different gifts in God but it is no good to have different doctrine which we can sense out thru “spirit of discernment” that God attribute in us. To relinquish false prophet in our midst of the congregation. It is sad thing at time our spirit in us just want us to forgo these blessing of God thru his precious words of sharing, at time we just miss our reconciliation even to the mercy of God himself.
Therefore if a blog are mean for “private membership” than why not have it in the room meeting every week so that we can get together and discuss the things of God. Not everything will be hidden and partial; right even the very pimple within our face will be shown to the brothers and sisters in Christ.
Therefore fellow CT Readers and Calvary Today if you open a blog to the open to Christians public then follow the “International Bloggers Rules and Standards” as to open for more transparency, openness and clearness in the eyes of the “commentator” and “commentatee” without prejudice and biasness in the congregation of believers.
I am sure those Christians that will take an “copy infringement right” to hinder the words of God being minister, for the purpose of exaltation towards God’s children will face the similar wrath of God on his judgment day.
I pray that this will be open blog and dialogue without biasness for everyone.
Peace of God be to you!
CT Reader
How come like that Calvary Today? I was very encourage by the words of God here and you say not related... aiya!
I thought that you are fighting for tranparensy and openess and now you publish at your our discretion? This is no good...
Huh what happened cannot post already???
creators of the alternative blog are just wasting their time posting their pointless articles and comments in their site..but it does humour me whenever i read their childish comments against the TTG..pls grow up la, especially Why So Long and Charles.
We note there have arisen several comments from persons out to disrupt and mislead CT readers.
They are seemingly trying to appear very scriptural and holy in their approach.
God gives us discernment and wisdom so we can discern the appearance of wolves in sheep's skin. We have the Holy Spirit living in us and guiding us.
We are not spiritually blind. If you are here to create confusion and up to no good, please be informed we can tell who are genuine or not in their ways.
God is great and He is to be exalted at all times!
To Disappointed, Shamugam and Anonymous,
It’s good that you were encouraged by the words of God here but I hope that you realize that your own Bible must be your first source of getting encouragement from God, not CT. There’s also lots of Christian websites where you can read good Christian articles and be encouraged. But here in CT is where you get the news and the members’ views on the development in Calvary. There is place for everything under the sun.
God has given everyone of His children wisdom to make the right decisions and to exercise our discretion in everything that we do, in every aspect of our lives. Remember, our God is not only a transparent God, He is also an organized God, not disorganized and a God of order, not disorder.
Therefore, in trying to achieve our objective of promoting transparency, we have to be wise and not to throw caution to the winds. We have to emulate God and be organized in our blog. We have to ensure a reasonable level of order and relevance in the posting of comments. We cannot allow CT to become a blog of “rojak” which is what the enemy wants CT to become so that we are distracted from the real issues which threatens our Church.
We wish to emphasize again here that we cannot publish articles without first obtaining the consent of their publisher or author, unless their article or website comes with an open declaration of permission for anyone to publish their work without the need for their consent. Just because the publisher or author is a Christian, it does not give us the right to exercise indiscretion and show disrespect to the author who had spent much time and effort on their work. It is certainly not ethical for us to publish their work without due recognition to them.
Finally, in our posting of the guidelines on commenting published earlier, we never said that you cannot post. Please read those guidelines again.
God bless.
Calvary Today and Berita Calvary,
A challenge has been issued for you to close your blog on 13 Feb 2009 at 12.00pm
You have made your point with this blog.
We are also in a time of economic uncertainty and each of us (including yourselves I'm sure) should be spending more time with God seeking His direction and His wisdom for our professional working life, to know that we are securely placed in the palm of God's hand and shielded from harm. Individually, each of us must know in our hearts and without a shadow of doubt that we have God's favour in our lives during these testing times. Who knows what will happen to our jobs and the people that report to us at work (assuming you have direct reports)next day, next week, next month.....
There s a time and a place for everything, there is a usefulness of everything at a given time.
Hence, it would be gracious of you to close your blog.
Thank you.
Note : I am neither pro-CT, pro-CK, pro-CU, pro-SP. I am concerned about what's happening to our world economy and how it affects the livelihood of the people in my organization and would like to read 3 blogs less.
Dear Calvary Today,
With respect to the Amen Unity proposition in CK and CU. May I also suggest that CT work with the leadership of CC to set up an official blog with the following criterias :-
1. A member's only Blog
Enlist all CC members ( CU/CT/CK ) to give their voice to the Moving Forward program on Church Governance. And let's keep the discussions within the body of Christ at CC.
2. All CC users of official blog will have their real life photos and names.
We want personal accountability for what's being said. After all, we are the people of the light. Real people and real members of the CC.
3. Participation by the Church Leadership i.e. BOD/SP and Pastoral Team
I believe this will bring CC forward in fulfilling our role as a fountain head Church.
Amen Unity ?
Dear hornet,
I get the impression that you are either new to the blog or new to CC. You can't be a member from what you have written. Otherwise you would have known that CC leadership cancels church membership via Foong Ling as and when they like. And, to date, none of the BOD or PG or pastoral team has come out openly to address any of the issues.
Oh, and regular worshippers don't count? What kind of a church do you have in mind? Like a private/elite club?
Try again!
Dont touch it. Its a hornet.
Mmmmmmm..this sounds like a second marriage proposal, asking calvary today to abandon the first wife( as calvary today) and marry a second wife (as amen unity)-- but unfortunately, do Christian practise second marriage by divorcing the first wife??
What a joke??
To: To hornet said… in reply to hornet, February 11, 2009 11:51 AM on Calvary Today…
Why should you let this Foong Ling membership is of disturb to you. Ask Foong Ling and bring some witnesses go to any leadership team to get the reason of the termination. Any way for your information NO any Pastors and Shepherds, Board of Directors of any Church, Deacons can terminate your relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ set right within our heart and soul that does our own “termination” thus “sin” against the very “Temple of God” within our membership application form. But nevertheless Jesus is kind and good; we can have a re-application form back to his “Temple of God” right within the Church of Jesus Christ, should we send the “REPENTANCE application form” back to him. I am sure with his compassionate and lovable heart he will welcome us back into this platform of his “living church”. So in that sense we will be accepted back.
So again, don’t let the “Adversary” creep in again and corrupt our mind, “take the words of God and your living testimony” with love go to them the “Representative of God” and reconcile back what has been lost and aggravated and set thing right within our heart. It is not he, PG nor the BOD of this physical church that can do harm to your spirit, body and soul but rather God alone will decide, they will definitely have their own rewards and curse of generation in the Day of Judgment.
About PG/Pastoral Team and BOD quietness, let them be doing in their own serenity. Does it intimate you and your relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ? If they cancelled the membership what entitlement you have in this physical church. Only voting right and at certain involvement in serving thru CC to God and fellow brethren with love. But you still can come to church, it is opened. You are afraid that you will be condemned by men in that CC Holy Sanctuary? They shall serve their judgment but you will be fully “Great is He” that your Faith and the “Temple of Holy Spirit” inside you suffered, for by this all men will know that the “Spirit of Lord Jesus Christ” is in you; Emmanuel!
So I challenge you encourage, motivate and held each one by the love of God, for by this all men will know that you are my disciples and I believe God is not a mocker, you will love by him further more even as I say and encourage you now. Be of a good cheer this is the “House of my Father, you and me are his son and daughter, who can separate us from our Father’s House!”
“Amen Unity”
Dear Anonymous,
Every vote COUNTS where cleaning up CC is concerned (don't you get it?).
To: No Jokes Please said …
You sound like a “Joker” in the Batman series “Dark Knight” and you made a mockery out of God holy communion of saints right even in his presence. Better send in your “REPENTANCE application” lest you membership will be thrown out by the Holy Spirit by Anonymous, February 11, 2009 1:41 PM.
You’re lies and “tongue twister” and “partiality of his words” Satan! I rebuke thee, “You are not welcome in his presence, get thee behind in this God e-sanctuary”. Don’t you know parable and the mystery of God? Then if you don’t then God will not review and further opened your eyes to the God plan and mystery of HIS Will. (Mark 4:11)
What are you talking about “divorce” here, dear Bro Joker (Fit your name description as a Joker you are). We are talking about Family of God. A marriage with Jesus Christ, a communion of the Spirit of God, with peace and serenity to hold on to ALL the commandments and decrees of our Lord and Master Jesus Christ. There is NO marriage with CT and CU it is just a minor brethrens feud. It is good for church building but we must control our “adversary” lest it “control us” instead. Without Jesus Christ and sacrifice of his “precious blood” and “water ooze out from his body” why are you and me here, Bro Joker? Go and eat “Lord Jesus Christ words” so that it can be digest and revive you thus set your digestion free out of the bondage of the flesh!
Remember Bro. Joker don’t blasphemy the Holy Spirit that was laid by Jesus Christ for us. He will never let you go even right down to the corner of the earth and hell. (Matthew 12:31) I pray for you!
For the love of God; all brothers and sisters in Christ; Love will set us free. Don’t let the “Joker” or “any Joker” set us out of this freedom and liberty in worshipping, coming together and praising God in the Highest in one accord!
The Sword
Hi Anonymous to hornet said @ 1.41pm, (aiyo so long to address one person. please use a name so that others can differentiate one another.)
What you say sound very nice but you see everything that SP & BOD say all this time also very nice but look carefully and you see the real intention. Whole church with few obedient Voting Members to agree with all their actions. The rest just come to worship God but cannot raise any questions because they don't want opinions. They just want your presence to fill the church (as in so big numbers) and they want your offering money (you don't need to be a Voting member to put money in the offering bag.)
Very well said but we are more careful these days and we weigh everything. We don't simply accept words from every body.
CT please weigh carefully what is this all about. Suddenly now one new Amen Unity come out from no where and we don't even know who?
TTG be careful.
Wow, no jokes please, you good man. Never saw it that way but what you say is very true. How can ask TTG to abandon CT and go form another group that we don't even know what their purpose is. End up later on telling the same half truth story from SP & BOD. Worse still actually, no story from them. Just do what they like and then get rid of all they don't like. Cantonese say, "Yau hei kong, mow lei kong" direct meaning "got they say, no you say".
I still cannot get over BOD take our faith promise money and nicely give away and then say no need to tell us because once we give we cannot ask anymore. What kind of logic this is?
To: Anonymous--The Sword
Thank you for your 'tongue'--though I am very tempted to use the same word as you used. First and foremost, I believe CT exist for us--the concerned members, if you are not one of them but only exist here to 'police' or 'wanting CT and concerned members and TTG to fit your agenda', I dont think any of us can be so easily 'subjected' to your demand.
Secondly, all the rest that you had said are totally irrelevant to the 'CAUSE' of Truth, Transparency and Good Governance.
Thirdly, may the Lord have mercy for you and me, in particular, your angry spirit.
Fourthly, I will forgive you for your 'dirty' words and most importanly, My Lord, My Saviour reign.. and He is my refuge, my protector.
Lastly, I want to say special thanks to Calvary Today for your existence and perseverance; CT please continue with the blog, do not close this blog, reasons being, till date, no one from the church leadership especially the sp and bod had even bother about the entire saga.
So, to all other concerned members, I am sure you agree with me that the church had not made any positive progress thus far..
I think we are all barking at the wrong tree. They use FL as a frightening agent only. She just call and ask "out of concern" if you are still attending CC.
The real happening is they are approving many new members with little or no "requirements". Now is the best time to apply for church membership. To qualify, give alot of money to CCC and then keep quiet and don't ask questions. Just give and you will get.
I did not notice Anonymous February 11, 2009 8:05 AM earlier.
Who put what challenge to CT to close their blog? Anyone heard any announcement in church of such a challenge? I was in church on Sunday but I did not hear any such announcement made by the pastors or deacons. How come we have to keep getting news from reading CT only? SP & BOD, speak for yourself. Don't keep using others to speak for you. At EGM you guys used outside Lawyer & Auditor to speak for you. Now here you use Anonymous to speak for you. I give up.
Anyway Anonymous @ 8.05am, if you have more important things to do, like taking care of your job, my advise to you is, stop reading any blog let alone 3 blogs.
Hi "Give and Get"
I agreed with you, recently also I heard of non members/non church worshipper/non regular being asked and called to join the Easter Programme. Another 'compromise', on the other hand, certain ones were being 'rejected' because the church dont like their face. I remembered I have to attend Cell group regularly, bible study, prayer meeting and both Sunday morning and evening service in order to be awarded 'voting member' and to stay as a leader those days--20-30 years ago, and now the church got 'cheap sale' for membership as well as participating in all those programmes( those day--if you are not member, you cannot join..)
Please be informed these are 'real cases' not here say, ok..
To "To hornet at February 11, 2009 11:51 AM"
Contrary to your impression, I am a member of CC. You meant to say that BOD/SP will cancel the one's membership should one suggest setting up an official church blog. Sure ?
If one assume BOD/SP to be as guilty as CT alleges and with threat of CBT charges etc..hanging over their heads.. You think BOD/SP will openly address the issues raised here, in this blog ?
I found the silence of the BOD/SP on the issues raised by CT deafening but I cant see how all the issues can be resolved with CT blog in its current state. Feel free to tell me if I'm wrong here.
And the blogs at CU/CK are divisive and damaging to the Body of Christ that meet at CC.
Whoaa..Hornet is drawing fire from CT/CU/CK ? Or is this a sincere attempt to encourage peace and unity among CC's members.
Regular worshippers ? Who stop you from joining as CC's members and making your voice heard in an official church blog ? Is this an elitist mentality ?
My comment to CT for merger into an official blog meant well as I draw my experience from running a blog site with 800k hits/day. I find your sarcastic tone unbecoming of a christian.
And because Christ prayed for unity for His Church, I'm saying "Amen" Unity.
Hi Calvary Today,
am curious to know if anyone was brave enough to email you using their real names and real email addresses for the amen unity thingy....knowing them, they probably won't dare to use their real names!
Hi Calvary Today, am curious to know if anyone emailed you for the Amen Unity using their real names and real email addresses...knowing ppl like Why So Long and Charles, they probably won't...no guts mah...
To Anonymous, February 11, 2009 2:05 PM
(Don’t you get it?) My brothers and sisters in The Lord Jesus Christ. Have you NOT been reading the blog and understand the conviction behind everything that you preach but you did not practice. (James 2:22) You think you are behind every “cleaning” and every “vote” that you decide. The earth and everything that you have it right to the very tiny of your hair, all belong to God Almighty. HE is the Author and Finisher of our Faith, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. (Hebrew 12:2) (Rev 1:8) (Rev 22:13). Apart from that God is not the author of confusion but of peace. (That’s AMEN UNITY don’t you get it?) (1 Corinthians 14:33). So what make you are God behind the “cleaning”, what make you play God by voting, you vote what you feel mooted by the same Spirit of God dwell within us. (I pray that it is the same Spirit of the Father rather unholy spirits dwell within) God will makes the cleaning and the victory is of God (don’t you get it?) So every vote is COUNTS for unity of the body of Jesus Christ is concern. If you said that you are “Christian” and still want to be dedicated as “Children of God” then practice what you preach the truth will set us free in God words (John 8:31) by loving one another(John 13:35). What you do is shedding blood of the fellow brother in the Father House? Where is the love of God? Where is the compassion and mercy of God? Are we a disciple of Jesus Christ or just a pagan/heathen who want to set destruction to God Kingdom? If you do not satisfy go bring witnesses to the respective leader and authority of the church and talk it out in the open in meeting. The House of God is not theirs it is your and my Father’s House. The offering that you give is not that you give to “men who steward” them you give it to the Father in Heaven. The one who Shepherd and did not steward it righteously they will face their rewards or curse down to their very generation at the end. (Malachi 2:1-10) (Don’t you get it?)
To YK Theng, February 11, 2009 3:08 PM
That why aiyoyoooo! There to address one person name so long cannot differentiate that is how talking in the blog is all about! Doesn’t it feel better to do it and talk in the church instead? Sorry what you say I sound very nice but it is from the biblical perspective of the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ about:
Jesus Christ membership of salvation. (2 Thess 2:13)
Sinning against the Temple of the Holy Spirit. (Matthew 12:21)
Repentance and merciful (Luke 13:3,5) (Luke 6:36)
Compassion and lovable heart (Matthew 18:33) (John 3:16)
Making peace and conflict resolution in God Church. (Matthew 18:15-17)
Pharisee will have their own rewards and judgments. (Matthew 6:2)
Persecution for the name of Jesus sake. (Matthew 5:11)
Meeting of the saints in unity. (Hebrew 10:24-25)
We give to God NOT to men (I am sure God too have bless you back with House, beautiful wife & children, possession and career plus etc.) As I say “they” will face their rewards if they do not “steward righteously”. Why YK Theng you do NOT know how to discern please get back to the words of God and fully understand what being a “Christian” is all about? You mean by Amen Unity is a curse the curse will be back to you for being: partial” in the laws. God has too long to heard too many stubborn “Christian” around until they face the very wrath of God at their doorstep. I will pray for you. God knows who are you “YK Theng” so does the “adversary” in you. Do you want to be Judas? Beware! All you have will be taken back by robbing thru God conscious within yourself.
I will continue to pray for you to overflow the charitable nature in us.
Freely received; freely give (Matthew 10:8)
Shalom!
Brothers and Sisters in the Lord
CT started as a platform of open communication whereby many 'hidden happenings' are exposed eg. money we give to tsunami victims landed in CARE, the outcrop of CIM, PG's personal ministry.
This is very hurting because when we give, we expect the church to hand money over to those in dire
need but it went to a rich man's pocket. By the way the collection comes from many Calvarites who do not earn that much.
It is because by the grace of the Lord a small group of TTG checked accounts and found it out. They had the courage to tell us......if not for them then all this will be hidden.
Think many of you intelligent Calvarites will agree with me Ignorance is not bliss but stupidity.
Therefore I encourage all who love the Lord pray together with TTG that they will have the courage to do their part in promoting truth, transparency and good governance. All Christians, especially so of our leaders who ought to be above board. But are they above board?
If they are above board, why can't they just come upfront and tell us so????
So unless that happens it is imperative to have CT blog. We ought to support them instead of condemning them.
JL
Why you never ask, “Yesui tim kong lei?”. Meaning What about Jesus say?”
Who is Jesus then? Great grand old mother story in the bible?
Excuse me for my words I am “just sympathy” for Jesus Christ?
The Sword
Dear kepoh & curious,
CT has received 5 emails from different individuals and they were brave enough to use their names and personal e-mail addresses. We have not received any from Anonymous/es.
The five received are from,
1. J. Lim
2. Mea L
3. Jimmy K
4. Val K
5. Eliz H
We have purposely not published their names in full so that they cannot be identified. Of these 5 names, TTG group can identify and know 1 person. We thank these few brave ones and we say, "Stay tuned to find out what happens".
We thank kepoh & curious for checking directly with us and we hope that with this, none of you will speculate further on this matter.
Have a good day ahead and God bless.
To : Calvary Today and all Readers
I would like to make an appeal to CT and all Readers ( those concerned members), please, do not publish all those 'anonymous' and also all those who use scripture to 'preach' here. All that I read lately from among the 'anonymous' are full of vengeance.. at least, that is how my spirit felt..
Truly, it does not benefit the cause of Christ--all they are proclaiming are full of hatred, anger, frustration, and etc.
If ever, anyone were to say that CT is of no benefits, then why are these 'anonymous' appeared to be so 'revengeful'? The answer is: CT had pressed 'the hot button' of some of these individual.
Clothe me in your presence, Lord
........
That was the song that we sang on Communion Sunday at Cheras, 1st Feb 2009
And as the congregation continue to sing that song, I was praying for the presence of God to protect my family. I also prayed for the presence of God to protect the TTG families.
I prayed for covering upon the families.
During communion, Francis held my hand, and once again we prayed for God's presence to protect us as a family. We brought our children before the Lord. We prayed that God will clothe them individually with His presence.
For His presence will definitely protect us.
On 4th Feb 2009, my daughter called and said that she was robbed.
My first question was, "Did they hurt you?"
She answered, "No."
I went back earlier that day. I gave my daughter a hug. I held her hand and we prayed together. Tears flowed freely from both of us.
Mine were tears of relieved and thankfulness.
I thanked God for His protection, and prayed for forgiveness for the robbers.
After the prayer, I shared with my daughter that God has indeed answered our prayers.
A few days later I heard from my brother that his neighbour was slashed and robbed.
Praise Him from whom all blessings flow
Clothe my family in your presence, LORD
Dear CT Readers,
Whilst some of us are getting rather anxious and are earnestly seeking answers to the many legitimate questions raised by TTG, please do not resort to attacking and name calling within the brethen. "Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God (Matt 5:9) and we are Ambassadors of Christ (2 Cor 5: 20). Please maintain your dignity and humility "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in LOVE. Make every effort to keep the unity of the SPIRIT through the bond of peace" (Eph 4:2-3).
I understand the frustration and the silence from SP and the BOD but God does hears our cry for justice. So CT readers, we have MANY issues of Governance to pray for in CC, in our Government and EVEN in our lives as well (if we are truly honest). Let us be a "chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God" (1 Peter 2:9). Don't let our collective anger be counter productive. See the true enemy for who he really is; Satan, the father of Lies and Accuser of the Bretheren. Let us begin to attack his principalities and powers in prayer vigils, initiate continuos prayer attacks and launch prayer ICBM to "plunder hell to populate heaven"(quoted from Reinhard Bonnke).
On a separate and happy note, I also wish to just to briefly share a testimony of God’s grace and blessings. Recently, my faithful wife led a 25 y o Malaysian Chinese sales executive (note the “Chinese” angle again) to the Lord. Another divine appointment. I laughed when I returned home to hear this good news. For over 14 years of marriage without spiritual sons and daughters and now we have three; Li Ming (Mainland Chinese) , Chrys Myomamadhu (Myanmar Chinese) and now Jay Choong (Malaysian Chinese). All these “children” to disciple and guide within the last 3 months…. wow we are so AMAZED!!
Again I am continually humbled to learn that it is not about “capability” but “willingness”. May this simple testimony encourage us all to just press on towards the mark of our high calling!
God’s richest blessings
Dr. Christopher Shun
Dear Soon Ling
I have been praying for you.
Mat 18:10 Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I say to you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of My Father in Heaven.
We care.
God bless.
Dear pshn,
Thank you for your prayers.
We truly covet your prayers. Is such an encouragement to know that you are praying for us. And I know that Jesus is also interceding for us too.
We also covet prayers from all the Christians who read this blog.
Do continue to pray and uphold all who are standing for TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY and GOOD GOVERNANCE in our church.
HOLINESS BEFITS HIS TEMPLE.
RIGHTEOUSNESS AND JUSTICE ARE HIS FOUNDATION.
Amen.
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