Dear Truth seekers
I have a few queries/comments to ask/make : -
1. What is the next move that we need to take to stop this abuse of power once and for all, ie.
- will SP resign?
- will we get a Truth Commission like we so asked for?
2. CCC - With the current economy situation and the liquidity tightening plus increase in raw mat prices,
- how much do you think CCC's cost will shoot up to?
- Can CC even get anymore donations and financing to fund the completion of this building?
- If not, what will happen to CCC? seized by Alliance Bank?
- I think that those of us who do not agree with what SP is doing etc. should rightfully not go to this dinner.
- I don't understand how SP and the BOD can still go on celebrating when all is not well with the church.
103 comments:
The 40th Anniversary Dinner is just an 'eye-wash,' or to cover up for their real intent, which is to celebrate SP's 40 years of ministry.
Calvary Chruch is 47 years old, not 40 years old! Which church actually celebrates the Anniversary of a building dedication?
As the BOD has absolute power and SP is heading the BOD, how can we get a Truth Commission.
Suggestion - Can we ask whoever wants to support a petition for forming a truth commission to submit his/her name and tel. contact to Calvarytoday at their gmail addr. As and when we get enough support, those who are willing to sign to support could then be contacted to put their signatures down. This way we are doing something concrete instead of just blogging and airing our views. We do need to do something.
However, would the BOD accept a petition with enough signatures (I assume it has to be voting membes)or could this be thrown out by them.
We all know that SP will not resign unless we kick him out. He is having such a comfortable life at Calvary Church. There is no reason why he should resign. As it is, he is putting the blame on the TT group for creating such chaos in Calvary Church. The question is even if we get all the signatures for the truth commission and for SP to resign, will BOD accept our signatures ? What makes you guys think they won't throw it out again just like what they did before the EGM?
Sigh! Let us not ask him to resign - let us see if he can stay on with his reputation so in question with things that are revealed in this blog. Afterall we have been warned that we should not not touch him(as he is annointed)! Let him make the decision to retire gracefully!
Concentrate on the TRUTH COMMISSION. Very sad that he is so confident that we cannot report him to the authorities and because we do not want to hurt the Christian community.
It is really puzzling what his intentions are - can he really think he can split the church and the group that is disgrunted with him will leave and he then can start to build the church again? How can a man of God come to this stage and act like this. No care and love for his sheep.
Can we sue the BOD (:> since he has put the blame on them.
Let's not leave Calvary Church (which will be what he wants) but stay put to see this thru.
Dear puzzled
You mentioned that SP has got no care and love for his sheep. This is very true and real seeing the way SP is behaving. SP will be at the losing end because his CCC will suffer. If people do not trust him they will not give to building CCC. If building CCC is his dream (remember i said his dream not God's), then he will not have the money to complete it. By the way, they have changed the moving in date to Easter 2010.
Truth, Embellishment or outright lies herein lies some simple steps
3. Simple be gracious, treat this as a farewell dinner for SP, and in 3 years have church 50th.
1. Simple, for all its shortcomings, a majority of BOD can ask SP to resign based on following reasons
a. see step 2 below
b. CC unity and reputation
c. else a continuing attrition and hammering and erosion of his reputation and the works that he had contributed.i.e. even our political leaders know when to retire like a grand statesman. So BOd for his own good too.
c. else we have a bigger STICK to wield. Remember the sins of the father can also be carried down to his kids. Any ill-gotten gains can be reported to local and foreign IRS. IRS in the US loves money launderers.
d. some BOD (such as SK, PO, H/S etc) doesn't have much to lose except admiration, love, respect for sacrifices and being matyrs for the Lord and saving CC. Our enemies want us to be koyakked completely.
e. don't be deluded, SP is not indispensable. If this saga continues it will end up like PTL, Jimmy Swaggart and in worst extreme Jim Jones and People's Temple( I know its extreme to compare but demise of CC is just the same). So Pastors SK, PO, TO, RY heed your callings.
f. we have a group of capable Calvarites within and without the BOD, leaders to continue with furthering the kingdom of God in CC.
g. if BOD has no guts, solicit fellow pastors from outside and if not fully convincing go international especially US. Trust me we don't want to have to resort to this( remember Barbarians are storming at the gates !!!)
h. setting up a Truth commision will not be necessary if SP and CC congregation able to resolve it amicable. No need to wash dirty laundry.
2. God help us Calvarites if above steps are not realized. Remember Vultures and Barbarians are storming at the gates.
How about getting the petition ready, all signed up, lodge a certified copy with the A/G before submitting it to the BOD with eyewitnesses, and ensuring that the BOD sign acknowledgment of receipt? In addition, we can send other certified copies of the petition to Dr. Guynes & A/G USA HQ.
Anonymous is right, SP will not resign as he has too much at stake, too much to lose. I'm analyzing on what is really holding him back from just resigning or retiring. Can't be money as he already has loads of them stored up for his retirement(hopefully SP supporters won't bash me for talking about money!), can't be his love for the church members as he certainly does not love us!...It just leaves his ego and his reputation in US. If he were to resign now, it would show that he is admiting that he has done something wrong and this would totally wipe out the many years he has put in to build his own name and kingdom.And if people in other countries know about his misdoings in CC, they certainly won't invite him to speak at their churches anymore..so there goes his reputation and career.
Signing a petition is a good but wasted effort as what we have seen happen to our earlier petitions. A couple of hundred names are insignificant and meaningless to the BOD. Their concern is more on protecting theirselves and SP. So,yes..perhaps "puzzled" is right..can we sue the BOD on a worst case scenario?
Praise the Lord for wisdom.
i agree with puzzled. concentrate on the Truth Commission. too much to lose said it very well also. SP won't leave, he has too much at stake, not only for himself but his children's future also.
Yeah, TT members should look into sueing the deacons for giving money that does not belong to them alone.
I thought i heard someone has already gone to the authorities?
authorities meaning the police? or the Christian world authorities?
Maybe what SP shud do if he really wants to make things rite is to return the rm1.9mil from CIM back to CC. tat will be a good start.
maybe not only the Bod, but also the missions committee shud be sued for simply giving out money to whoever they like without first informing the members.
I agree. Sue the BOD and the Missions Dept.!
If SP have any fear of God at all in his heart, he should return the RM1.9million to the church. Enough of those flimsy excuses - he has already lost his credibility in the eyes of the world as well as the Christian world. It is such an obnvious case of covetuousness, the love of money, leading to CBT!
Even if the BOD did give the money to him [in a moment of madness, perhaps!], he could still return the money as a gesture of goodwill & true servanthood, in order to maintain the peace and unity of the church.
I need some clarification here please. Any lawyer can help me?
Assuming I am stopped by a policeman on the highway. I stop my car and take a look at him. Wah he look so hot & thirsty becoz of standing under the sun for so long. I am quite rich, so I take pity on him and give him RM50-00 for "minum kopi".
His big boss saw and we both get hauled to court. Who is the guilty one. Me who gave the RM50-00 "kopi" money or the policeman who took my money because I gave him? Actually, he did not ask for it. I gave him willingly because I got alot of money to spare.
Who is guilty or more guilty?
At the TT meeting in KBU, they already told us that they have met with the AG council members or something like that. I think it is the police. Must check around first before can confirm.
To Case Study,
Of couse SP more guilty. BOD gave but SP took-mah.
But SAP said BOD is guilty, not SP because BOD gave so SP just took. Any case law for this, I mean, in church context. Lawyers, please clarify.
In my learned opinion, both SP & BOD are guilty, one gives and the other takes. In criminal law, both giver and taker are guilty.
The sentence will of course depend on the learned judge, and the mitigation of SP & BOD. In this case, I think SP can blame Irish coffee again, but what about BOD? You have to ask each member.
Lawyer Sama Buruk said "But SAP said BOD is guilty, not SP because BOD gave so SP just took. Any case law for this, I mean, in church context. Lawyers, please clarify."
I am no lawyer but I remember reading my Bible which starts off with "In the beginning ......"
In Genesis Chapter 3, I read that Adam was caught by God for disobeying Him & Adam answered "but it was the woman (Eve) you gave me who brought me the fruit and I ate it" Gen 3:12
Hmmm.... I can only conclude that I think our SAP is very conversant of the Bible but unfortunately she probably overlooked that she is not supposed to use Adam's tagline & blame others (BOD) when it was SP who took the tainted funds from CC.
So I think the best case law for this ought to be the mother of all case law as qouted in Genesis 3:1 - 24. The sentence from God was banishment for Adam & Eve.
Hmmm.... I wonder whether God would mete out the same sentence in the case of SP (& SAP)? I rest my case, God. Over to you.
I totally agree with some of you who said that besides blogging in Calvary Today, we need to take concrete steps/actions to 'solve' these issues. Like I've mentioned before, I'm for the setting up of the Truth Commission. (Personally, I would call it the "Calvary Royal Commission" as all of us are princes & princesses of the King of Kings). By doing so, the outcome would once and for all confirm whether SP has or has not done anything wrong with the transfer of funds from cc to cim. Thereafter, all must accept the decisions and recommendations of the commission, like it or not.
Besides, we must also look into the subject(s) of reference for the commission to work on. The proposal for this commission should also spell out the reference(s) clearly.
To my TT group bros and sisters, I personally believe that Calvary Today blog has achieved its objective by giving all concerned calvarites to voice their opinion with regards to the cc saga. But, what's next? I've been reading and posting my comments here, but I hope to play a part in helping to 'solve' this saga.
God bless.
Dear case study...
think yr case study is good but a bit of the scenarios need to be changed in order to suit the actual issue we are facing.I will use your case study and amend from there...
Assuming I am stopped by a policeman on the highway. I stop my car and take a look at him. Wah he look so hot & thirsty becoz of standing under the sun for so long. He asked me to pity him a bit and give him some money as his work is so cham. I am not very rich but my passenger is - so I take pity on the policeman and took RM50 from my passenger's wallet (my passenger was sleeping blissfully unaware in the car) and gave it to the policeman for "minum kopi".
His big boss saw and we both get hauled to court. Who is the guilty one. Me who gave the RM50-00 "kopi" money or the policeman who took my money because I gave him? Actually, he DID ask for it. I gave him willingly because my passenger friend has a lot of money to spare and anyway,he won't know about it as he was sleeping and less RM50 from his wallet is insignificant since he is so rich.
Who is guilty or more guilty? Should my passenger friend sue me or sue the policeman for stealing the RM50 from his wallet?
My answer: The policeman is guilty of corruption/extortion while I am guilty of taking my friend's money without asking for permission = stealing.
Dear all,
Let us not get diverted into another subject - eg case study, etc. let us concentrate on the Truth Commission.
HELP! Any wise persons, lawyers, etc. etc., can help us out in this dilema.
Look what is happening presently in global markets. The signs are that the Lord's Second Coming is very soon. Let's ask : Why is CC in such a messy state? What are our leaders doing? Celebrating 40th Anniversary and dining in style to raise more funds for CCC?
With the present economic meltdown will locals as well as our friends abroad still be flushed with money/cash to give generously for CCC?
Time for BOD and Pastors to wake up and be realistic. Why bull doze all the way?
If our leaders were more realistic we would have been worshipping in a newly completed but more modest building already!
There are several examples of other modestly constructed church buildings completed recently and with vibrant congregations too.
Despite all the talk of big buildings it is better to have a small humble church with leaders and members with plenty of love and truthfulness rather than a huge beautiful building with no love and truthfulness!
Hi everyone
Thanks for answering my queries. It looks like the answer to my question on whether SP will resign is that if he had it his way, it will not be happening.
I'm all for the Truth Commission as well as the Constitution Review Committee to be set up asap. Like what Puzzled asked, what do we need to do to get them set up? Shoudn't the BOD and SP also agree with the setting up of these independent bodies in order to prove SP's innocence? I would have thought they would jump at the chance to do so.
Meltdown also pointed out a good point that if our church leadership had a more realistic vision, we would have already been worshipping in a new building. Sure, the building might not be as high tech and win an award for 'Top Architectual Building' in Malaysia, but everyone would be so much happier. It is a valid question to ask: Whose vision was CCC really? Was it God's vision or man's vision? Also, the background of the architect in charged of handling CCC troubles me greatly.
Hi Obvious,
Your comment that "the background of the architect in charged of handling CCC troubles me greatly" caught my attention.
Heard that he is a Free Mason & that certain Free Mason elements/signs have been incorporated into the design of the CCC. Is this true, Obvious?
Can someone out there please let us have the truth?
Can someone let me know more about Free Mason?
That was what I heard too, not so obvious. Does anyone also know whether SP was aware of this fact,ie. did he know about this before he gave the contract to the architect or did he only find out after the contract was given to the architect? If it is the former, I am even more troubled about the whole matter.
I remember vivdly SP sharing with us from the DH pulpit that God gave him a vision of a 5,000 seating church.
I don't recollect SP having said that God gave him a vision of a 5,000 seating convention centre.
So why is SP deviating from the God-given vision?
With all the problems we have today at CC, does it mean that God is not happy with CC since the building of CCC is not in line with His will?
Perhaps, we need a Samuel to confront SP (& BOD) to tell him that he has step out of line & God wants SP to fall back in line with His will. If SP obeys & repents then I am very sure that God will make a way for CCC to be disposed so that CC can build a 5,000 seating church to fall in line with God's will.
What say you?
To: Not so Obvious
Seems concern over Free Mason architect was raised with SP & BOD few years ago but it was brushed aside. perhaps thought to be too trivial and members were kept in the dark.
But actually AOG has a stand against Free Masonary.
Many things are kept out of members' knowledge.
Leadership thinks best to keep members blur.
Seems CC is presently not relevant in its testimony and effectiveness in reaching out to the lost in our land. How to be a fountainhead church?
What is BOD doing now after close to two months since the EGM and their paper on 'Moving Forward' given out then? Wonder if they are sincere about it or not? Paper very professionally worded but perhaps just for show and not meant to be serious....
Hi, Not So Obvious,
"Freemasonry is a Luciferian cult.
They have one doctrine for the goyim (the uninitiated) and one for the initiated. The one for the goyim always makes it appear nice and rosy and a "do-gooder's club", and the "inner circle" doctrine makes you spit on a cross, deny Christ, and perform bizarre sexual acts."
This is taken from Yahoo Answers.
You can always google for more info. on Freemasonry
Not so obvious,
This is from the Catholic Church point of view (from Yahoo Answers). If the Catholic Church can be so strongly against freemasonry, Assemblies of God should be equally against it.
"Freemasonry is a secret society with certain vows that violate Christian beliefs. It's very founding is anti Christian. A Catholic would be excommunicated for joining it.
Source(s):
The Catholic Church and Freemasonry have been at odds for centuries. Eight popes have condemned it, as well as have the majority of Christian denominations. Christianity and Freemasonry hold contrary beliefs. Catholics are forbidden to join the Lodge in the strongest of terms. The Church's position is expressed in its "Declaration on Masonic Associations." It states in part: "Therefore the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged, since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church, and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion
Not so obvious,
Here's another Christian opinion on Freemasonry..(yes, also from Yahoo Answers)
"Freemasonry is of the devil! No Christian should ever belong to an occult organization. Freemasonry is largely based upon the mystical Jewish Kabbalah, a Satanically inspired book of witchcraft. The Kabbalah is extremely popular with today's Wiccan witches, and also with other such occult groups as the Rosicrucians, Mormons, and Knights Templar."
We should proclaim a fast. Pray for SP and the church leaders. Pray for everyone. Pray for God's guidance and His Will be done.
yes,this looks to be a very serious matter.If the very foundation of CCC is built on anti-christian signs/elements, it is the begining of the end for CC as a church.what made SP just brush off something as serious as this? does he not see the implications this has on the vision that 'God gave him'? Does he not see that this reflects on his principles and how he can easily compromise?
Could SP be a freemason 'secretly.'? Indeed, many freemasons would profess themselves tobe Christians and are of the belief that you can be a Christian freemason! Freemason boldly claims to believe in God - they have a Muslim chapter called the Arabic Shriners and a Christian Chapter. Freemasonry clains to honour all religions - In the earlier Degrees, their God is revealed as G.A.O.T.U.(meaning Grand Architect of the Universe, which sounds like God, doesn't it?). However, the real identity of their God is revealed in the 30th degree as Lucifer. That is why they are called Luciferians.
Below is the opinion of a 'Christian' freemason who wants to defend his beliefs (taken from Yahoo Answers):
Yes, of course, we welcome Christians as Masons. Good Christians make fine Masons.
Becoming a Freemason makes you a better, more moral person. That is what Freemasonry is about. It also practices benevolence and charity toward people of all religions. I think that is what the Christian's have in their Bible in the parable about the Good Samaritan, don't they?
I am a Co-Mason, Freemasonry for women and men. I think Bro. CL answered these detractors very well.
Freemasonry is not a religion. We are a system of MORALITY, veiled in allegory, illustrated by symbols. The idea is to take good women and men and help them become better. We make no claim about what happens in the after-life. We just work on how to get along best in this one. You know, things like The Golden Rule, treating folks on The Level, Square Deals, not Hoodwinking folks... all Masonic terms. How do you think the United States got most of its principles?
We get battered around because we keep certain things in trust. Most things you can get off the Internet anyway. But we have to entrust small "secrets" to our Entered Apprentices so that we know that we can trust them. Trust is an important thing in this world. Look at marriages that dissolve so quickly now, look at politicians whom no one can trust. Why do you think Masons get responsible jobs? We work to be trustable.
We do not accept atheists. I know of no Satanists in our Lodges of Co-Masonry. I suppose there could be. I think they would have so problem with how much Christianity, Judaism, etc we actually have in our rituals. We make no claim on an applicant's religion or politics EXCEPT that they must not be an atheist or anarchist.
Of course, since I am a Mason, you probably will not believe me. I just want you to investigate beyond the conspiracy websites and learn to think for yourself. Becoming a Co-Mason has been the best thing since becoming a father as far as straightening out my life.
A Master Mason
American Co-Masonry
Hiram Lodge (Santa Cruz, CA)
Amon Ra Lodge (Los Angeles, CA)
Sapientia Lodge of Research (Larkspur, CO)
Adamant Mark Lodge (Santa Cruz, CA)
6 months ago
Source(s):
American Co-Masonry http://www.co-masonry.org
Let's not get into a debate on freemasonry and its philosophy. It is undeniably anti-Christ and occultic. Let's also not debate whether SP is a freemason. We pray he is not. The issue at heart is that none of us want our church to be designed by a freemason. None of us want to worship in a building designed by a freemason. We want to give glory to God, not to satan. If SP and the deacons have been negligent in appointing a freemason to be our architect, then they must rectify the situation somehow, get a christian architect (our church has many)to redesign since only the foundation has been completed. They cannot just say they only found out that Ken Yeang is a freemason after his appointment and echo SP's favourite song "que sera sera, whatever will be, will be" and used Dr Guynes to justify it is ok. It is not OK! All concerned Calvarites must pray that God will wake up our BOD and SP to do the right thing. At the same time, everyone should pursue this issue with the deacons and pastors individually.
Ladies and Gentleman,
Question at EGM : that when the money was transferred from WAGRA to the CARED MINISTRIES or CIM or MISSION, was the approval given by the incoming president of WAGRA, because if not, its an offence?
Answer at EGM--By Senior Pastor: the money that come from the world assemblies of God relief organisation was a national world assemblies of God --( pause : am i right, Pastor Peter?), its the national president here that transferred the money to Church Mission.
to : voting members/associates mmbers/junior members-- please read further ...this is info come from a written reply from WAGRA OFFICE in US.
Dear.....
WAGRA (the World Assemblies of God Relief Agency) was established in 1994 as the relief arm of the World Assemblies of God Fellowship. Funds are received at the international office and when disaster projects are approved by the WAGRA Board, the funds are sent to the designated area.
No funds are held locally around the world. Contributions are received from Assemblies of God organizations around the world and sent here. Funds can be sent directly to the WAGRA Post Office box and an official receipt is sent to the donor. We have individuals as well as churches sending in funds.
When WAGRA was organized in 1994, most of the worldwide A/G organizations became a part of it. This is the case for Malaysia. They have been members from the beginning.
Thank you for your interest. If I can be of further help, please let me know.
WAGRA--US Office
(World Assemblies of God Relief Agency)
P. O. Box 374
Springfield, MO 65801
Phone: (417) 862-2781, ext. 3190
Fax: (417) 862-1607
Website: www.wagra.org
Subject: Re: WAGRA Office
Dear
Thank you for your response, I have the following questions to ask and appreciate if you would kindly reply:
1.When was WAGRA established ?
2. When was WAGRA Malaysia established?
3.What is the policy of WAGRA in terms of fund collected by WAGRA Malaysia?
Is the fund to be kept in WAGRA Malaysia or transferred to the International Body?
Thank you and God bless.
Subject: WAGRA Office
Good morning,
I am responding to your inquiry concerning the WAGRA office in Malaysia. You have reached the main office for WAGRA. If you have specific questions, perhaps I can help you.
WAGRA--US Office
(
Sorry Obvious, I can't answer all your questions but I will try to address some of them.
Looks like, we need to pray very, very, very hard for God to make a way for the Truth Commission to be formed. As Christians we should always stand up for the Truth no matter how painful it may be to us. After we have the truth, we can then pray to God for His direction on:-
1. how we can handle it,
2. where we can go from there,
3. whom do we need to appoint to put in place the desired actions,
4. etc., etc., etc.
Only God knows what the final cost of CCC will be but, in the 1st place, is CCC in line with His will? Does God want CCC to be in place?
Understand that God gave SP a vision for a 5,000 seating church (house of God) NOT a 5,000 seating convention centre (palace of God). Why should SP think that the authorities won't approve the building of a 5,000 seating church? Where is SP's faith? Or is SP indirectly telling us that the vision is not from God?
As a church, SP did not even get us to pray corporately for the authorities to approve the building of a 5,000 seating church; instead SP jumped straight into a 5,000 seating convention centre. Even if we need to hoodwink the authorities (which as Christians we really shouldn't), do we need to build a "palace of God" (CCC) when His vision was a "house of God" (CC). Looks like the man of God (SP) has some answering to God for deviating from His plans; perhaps that's why CCC cannot come into fruition because it is NOT in line with His will.
Interestingly, I have received a letter from CC to say that after 6 months of the "Leap in Faith 2", CC has only collected RM 1.8m (20%) of the RM 9.0m pledged. Can SP & BOD not understand the message that is coming across from the church members that unless they (SP & BOD) come clean with the Truth, they (the chuch members) will withold or divert their funds elsewhere.
I read an article somewhere which said that disgruntled church goers generally vote with their feet or with their cheque books. I believe that this is already happening in CC as there are more empty pews these days (the former action) & now that letter on "Leap in Faith 2" has confirmed that majority of members have taken the latter action. SP & BOD must surely know that for CC to receive 20% of funds pledged over 50% of the pledge period is a NEW record for CC & the bottomline is that Calvarites wants the Truth as they are now worried that BOD may siphon more funds to SP &/or CIM.
Even if SP is stubborn & wants things his way, BOD must surely realise that it SHOULD & OUGHT to be His Way & not his way; as otherwise all our efforts will be in vain.
As for the 40th anniversary celebrations of DH, I think this is a new record that we should write to Malaysia Book of Records (or perhaps to Guiness Book of Record) for them to authenticate as I have not heard of anyone anywhere celebrating a building's birthday.
My dear Obvious, how can I go for that dinner at Sunway? I will become the laughing stock of all my friends.
Btw, I understand that all cheques for the RM 85/pax for the celebration dinner must be made payable to "Calvary Convention Centre Building Fund". Please check this out yourself by looking at the form at the ticket counter, it is printed right at the bottom of the form.
Does it mean that the dinner is actually a fund raiser for CCC? If so, why have 2 fund raising dinners over 4 days? Is it because SP felt that he has squeezed Calvarites so dry that now we can't afford to go for the "elite" dinner on Saturday BUT he still wants to squeeze us further for the Wednesday "low cost" dinner. I think SP is right this time, I really can't afford to go for the "elite" dinner. But I also can't afford to have all my friends laughing at me celebrating a building's birthday, so I guess "obvious-ly" I will have to "chiak ka ki" (that's Hokkien for "eat on my own") unless you, Obvious, wants to join me lah. Any other takers? You are all most welcome.
Ah Beng,
You're indeed smart. You're obviously more than a simpleton "Ah Beng".
My LG leader bought a table and my family & I have been asked to join in, with payment of course. If you did not point out, I won't know at all that the Thanksgiving Dinner is REALLY a fundraising dinner as the payment is payable to the "Calvary Convention Centre Building Fund".
What a BIG BIG SHAM - 2 fundraising dinners in 4 days (22/10 and 25/10). It's really squeezing $$$$ time. SP is desperate and NOT ACTING IN FAITH (not walking the talk as he preached 2 Sundays ago that we must ACT IN FAITH).
I'm seriously contemplating NOT going for the dinner. It's NOT RIGHT.
Dear WAGRA Calvary,
I remember reading an article saying that SP was the first International Chairman of WAGRA from 1994 to 2000 when he was General Superintendent of AG Malaysia.
The truth is revealed, and more will be revealed...
Dear Ah Beng,
Let's not get hung up re the name "CCC". I am sure you know there are churches who had to name their venue "institute", etc. because the authorities would not permit a church to be in a linked house, or a place not designated to be a place of worship. I am sure we would not get permission to build on that land which is not designated a church land.
Let the building be called a Convention Centre by all means. What we must make sure is that as and when we do move in that we are still called "Calvary Church" worshipping in the CCC building and we are birthed in 1961. Okay?
Lets put the "convention centre" subject to rest on this and move on to more important issues, eg Truth Commission, Changing of the church constitution, etc.
Dear Ah Beng
Thank you for highlighting to us that the Anniversary Dinner is to be addressed to CCC, I was not aware of that actually as I did not buy the ticket. I doubt the church actually earns much (personal view as I may be wrong!) from this anniversary dinner since the ticket per pax is only RM85 and this will cover both the ticket buyer’s dinner cost as well as the dinner cost for the pastors & their families as well as the full time staff as I think its FOC for them. But I am wondering if they will actually pay for the expenses of the dinner from CC but the ticket sales are then actually credited to CCC. Meaning that CC will bear the costs but earnings are then credited to CCC. Of course people can say that it’s a matter of the left pocket going into the right pocket, but I wonder if there’s anything more to this. But of well, I might be wrong and the dinner expenses may be debited from CCC instead of CC. But just a food for thought.
As for the WAGRA, I am interested to know what was WAGRA’s response to the queries on what WAGRA’s policy is for funds collected by WAGRA Malaysia…did they reply on this? Do update us, Warga Calvary. This will proof to be an important turning point for concerned calvarites on whether our suspicions are true all along or were we just being paranoid. Thanks
Oops, Warga Calvary, noticed that WAGRA has responded on that and the answer was that no funds are kept locally. My question would then be whether SP’s reply on how WAGRA Malaysia funds were transferred to CIM were made known to WAGRA by your goodself. Should we escalate this issue to them or do you plan to confront SP first on this matter before escalating it to WAGRA?
Dear Concerned,
I am glad to hear that you are concerned for important issues such as Truth Commission, Review & Amendment of CC's constitution, etc.; because, like you & many, many others, I am equally, if not, more concerned than you on the same matters.
As regards your comment of don't get hung up on on the name "CCC", I think you are missing the point. I am NOT hung up over the name BUT I am concerned that SP is trying to build a "palace" for God when all He wants is a "house" of worship. When others within the Klang Valley can build their churches for less than RM 40 million, why must SP need to build a RM 200 million plus church? Is this so that he would have set himself up in the Malaysia Book of Record so high that no one can surpass him? But is this what God wants - a "palace" for CC to worship in? Or does God wants CC to worship in a "house" of worship?
If SP is wrong, may God have mercy upon him (& the BOD, for following him blindly) by waking SP up from his slumber so that SP can repent & God will work His way to resolve the mess that SP (& BOD) has brought upon CC. Amen !!!
If those who paid for the tickets for the 40th Anniversary Thanksgiving Dinner actually made payment to the Calvary Convention Centre Project Building Fund, are they entitled to request for tax-exemption receipt?
Will the CCC Tax-Exemption Committee headed by Datuk Nelson,I believe, give them the receipts? If they do, is it proper?
Dear Deceived,
You have indeed been deceived; for your info., "Beng" in Hokkien means "Bright" just like "Ming" in Cantonese. So you see, not all Ah Bengs are simpletons, Deceived. Ha ! Ha ! Ha !
Dear Obvious,
Likewise, you really live up to your name lah ! How come it never dawn on me that SP may park the income from the ticket sales into the CCC Building Fund & park the related expenses in the CC accounts. Wah ! This bit of creative accounting also SP can think of ah? Wonder who is his accountant? Is it ER?
Hang on, wasn't it such creative accounting that got Enron & others into trouble? Hmmm........ I wonder whether there is any whistle blowers amongst us, Concerned Calvarites? Or is it that the appointed whistle blower is still waiting for our Government to pass the Whistle Blower Act? Sorry guys (& gals), I need to run off now. I need to speak to some MPs on this proposed Act.
Dear Ah Beng,
The cost will come close to RM300 million in the end if it gets built according to the current design inclusive of land cost and consultants fee without building in phases.
1. Land cost = 35 million
2. Earthworks
and foundation = 12 million
3. Consultants fee = 6 million (should be higher)
4. Building cost = 100 million
(according to church)
5. Fittings, fixtures
and sound equipment
according to church)=50 million
6. Price increase =20 million (est)
7. Honestly, a more
accurate figure for
the building cost
based on its current
design will cost another
estimated sum of = 50 million
HENCE TOTAL = RM273 MILLION
Too high? Just mark it down in your diary or notebook somewhere.
Dear Anonymous,
Proper or not proper, just ask them for the receipts after all as Christians we need to "walk the talk" - ask & it shall be given, .....
If you don't ask, you don't get. If you asked & they don't give you the receipt, at least you have got your question answered. But if they don't give you the receipt, then why did they seek approval for the RM 185 million exemption? At this rate, I wonder whether they will even be able to utilise half the approved amount?
Dear ytf,
Looks like I not so "bright" after all.
Hmmm....... you could be right that it may be closer to RM 300 million. Actually, at this moment, only God knows what the final cost will be (I think even SP & BOD also don't know).
Btw, does ytf = yang tahu fully? If so, you betul betul tahu fully loh! But SP preach that only God knows everything & that we, in this life, will not know everything, or did I hear SP wrong ah?
Dear Ah Beng,
No, I didnt say anything about your intelligence.
But I think you are smarter than me. Normally people who called themselves Ah Beng, are smart people.
You are really smart to equate YTF to be Yang Tahu Fully. Really smart.
Why didnt I think of that?
The two dinners were already proposed last year-lah ...
Don't be so mengada ...
Dear Anonymous,
Now that you mentioned that "the two dinners were already proposed last year-lah ...", it rings a bell in my mind.
Yup! I heard sometime ago that it was planned last year that CC would have a dinner this year to celebrate SP's 40th anniversary in the ministry (last time, in 2002, it was to celebrate SP's 30th anniversary in CC). Wah! That means, SP only had 4 years experience when he became SP of CC in 1972 (i.e. 2002 - 30, loh). Looks like, there weren't that many pastors to choose from then eh?
Hey! If it was planned last year for SP's 40th anniversary in the ministry then why now bill it as CC's 40th anniversary. Oops...... since highlighted in this blog, they are now saying it's 40th anniversary in DH.
Aiyo! Why does SP keep moving the goalposts, like that how to score goal uh? Or is it that he needs to tell a bigger *** to cover the earlier one. God forbid that SP should have to *** to his sheep.
to : Obvious
Answer to your question from WAGRA. 'No funds are to be held locally around the world'. ( in simple words--money or funds should be channeled back to the Internation WAGRA)not here and not in Calvary Church Mission Account or CIM!( IF I UNDERTAND CORRECTLY!)
So, the irony is money from WAGRA( Int'nal) was transferred to calvary mission however--as per answer from Senior Pastor AT THE EGM.
Please refer second paragraph of the post earlier.
Finally, most members out there were confused, because of these kinds of transactions but the answer from WAGRA is very clear. So, looks like the President of CIM and Directors has got lots more to explain for themselves.The forensic accountant and criminal lawyer maybe in the blur...
Do read WAGRA SUPPORTER 's post. who is the president during that time?( check the aswer yourself!
To : readers who read my post, my name should spelled as WARGA CALVARY--i memang citizen of Calvary but not WAGRA calvary.
( on a lighter note ) my heart cannot take it when i read all these accounting merry-go-round, so we need to laught abit!
Dear Obvious,
If expenses for Thanksgiving Dinner are parked under CC, and income under CCC, then a/c (simplified version IAS 001) should be something like this
Income (sales of tickets) = RM100,000
Expenditure = RM0 (see note 1)
Surplus = RM100,000 (see note 2)
Notes
1. All expenses undertaken by CC under Provisions for Bad Debts
2. Net amount raised (credit goes to CCC Fundraising Committee)
Dear WARGA Calvary
My apologies. Anyway, I'm WAGRA Support, not Warga Supporter.
To Anonymous (the one who said we are mengada-ada)
Although this anniversary dinner is not our most important issue and I feel that we shouldn’t waste any more of our precious time talking about this exclusive dinner which I will definitely not be attending, I believe that we were not trying to determine whether these 2 dinners were planned this year, last year or even 10 years ago. Seriously, I do not care when the dinner was planned. What is important to me are the following questions which some of us have already brought up in our comments: Why was the dinner changed from celebrating SP’s 40th anniversary in service to CC’s 40th anniversary as a church? The latter is not even correct since as what the blog has mentioned countless times, our church is not 40 years old but 47 years old……and why are the funds collected from this anniversary dinner credited to CCC and not CC?
Anyway…
To the rest
So does anyone know about any updates on the Truth Commission, Constitution Review Committee and also the next course of action for the WAGRA issue? Thanks for yr clarification btw, Warga Calvary...
Finally…
To anyone who thinks I am a TT member
I am a TT supporter but I am not a TT member as although I would be most glad to be accepted into this yam char group, I do not want some people (SP supporters or self proclaimed neutrals) to again accuse me to be a TT member when I am not one as these people will only be too happy to use my opinions/concerns to taint the TT Group’s reputation. Why do I want to ‘protect’ the TT Group’s reputation? Because I believe that these are the people God raised to speak up and to make a change.
Dear Warga Calvary,
I'm not very smart like Ah Beng or YTF so I need some help here.
If WAGRA said "No funds are to be held locally around the world", does it mean SP put the $$$$ in Calvary Church Mission Account and not siphoned to CIM! I'm really confused, how come $$$$ can simply go left, right, centre and everywhere. Can ER explain since he is in the know and "explained quite well" at EGM.
Correct or not?
Maybe the 3 accounts of WAGRA (when SP was International Chairman), CC Mission & CIM are all linked, in accounting, they call it "MASTER ACCOUNT"
Dear WAGRA Support
Sure..sure..its ok for simple mistake..typo error only.. I very forgiving one, not like our ....
1. Recieved a lovely and humble couple from airport today from overseas, attending church conference in KL here, God's servant(pastoring a church). They shared how they pastored their church. Most important point--the church had strong campus ministries
( where poor international students can only gave little! )Monthly total expenses including 2 pastors salary, a youth pastor--his salary sponsored by different individuals, the church only paid him allowance--served by FAITH! 2/3 workers; total expenses 22000 ( in their currencies)a month. The church had grown by 1500% ,when they first started only 10 plus people.They serve and cater to international students plus local students every week once for dinner treat --FREE( its reaching out and connecting time with the young! powerful ministry indeed.
I have to let you know, food cost there is not cheap!
2. They had blessed my young adult who is a graduate now. was a undergraduate last few years. I only met them once but God is so good, bring us together today and touched by their humble attitude and compassionate heart and loves for my precious young adult WHILE in the foreign land.
3. My point is -- they only spent 22000( their currencies) a month Inclusive of church building fund, daily operations,salary, ministries. Why Calvar church need so much money for pastors salary and expenses a month( check the annual report)
4. while on the treadmill machine 30 minutes ago, God spoke and said "Be still and know I am God"--i have tremendous burden lately for tt people,God told them to know He is God, he will pour forth His armor of protection and showered them with strength an loves and wisdom. Be at Peace for what you are doing now, hallelujah..such great assurance! Amen
To: Bookkeeping graduate
surelah, accounting merry-go-round..memang pengsa.( sure confused) go...... round and round and round
to - trackmill track testimonies (wah...long la your nick name..haha), wat a beautiful testimony.we need more of such full time workers/pastors around.
i guess when sp and sap started their ministry, they probably had the right intentions and heart, but somehow,along the way,temptations crept in and love of money and material posessions took priority. sedihla
Lowya Buruk.."Of couse SP more guilty. BOD gave but SP took-mah."
Pastor G in beginning was very ambitious and I knew then (apparently its not only me) he was covetous and avaricious. You asked me how. Time can only tell (almost 40 yrs later)
He announced one Sunday about his new Volvo, a gift by one of our dear Calvarite - as far as I'm concerned with good intentions. The way he bragged on the pulpit about it , made me think (a poor takongcai) how can I compete against rich towkays, with small young family to feed, to be in Pastor's G's good books.
In hindsight, I guess he was encouraging and setting the tenor of " pastor gifts" during his tenure.
His solicitation from the pulpit was crass IMHO.
Ah Beng are u suggesting that SP and his cohorts are doing CREATIVE FINANCING along the likes of WALL STREET financial with SP emulating those rapacious CEOs. Us shareholders are going to be beggared (alas also spirtually) and continue to be soaked perpetually. The ROT is in.
No wonder CCC is estimated $330 million. The bigger the project the larger the kickback la. Oh, forgot extra ROT (rule of thumb) of KB is 10% or more la.
Looking back now, the church has really been guilty of placing a man above God in the church.
I remember paying about RM100.oo each to go for a posh dinner in some hotel to celebrate SP & SAP's 30 years ministry in Calvary. Then I remember there was a celebrattion of some sort for their wedding anniversary. Then one Sunday a couple of years back back dedicated to a 60th birthday bash for SP. I was told the offering that sunday was collected for him as a gift. Now, i'm thinking, how can anybody rob God of His Sunday offering money. Of course SP announced that he donate to ccc that offering money. now only i realise, this is "lor yan see fatt cho min pei."
This year the church celebrate his 40 years in ministry. I suppose God has got enough of our church's nonsence. Good thing got people like TT members who are willing to speak up for God. So they change to 40 years old building. Whatever the celebration is - It is not for GOD'S GLORY but man's glory.
God forgive us for spoiling our SP & SAP & family.
Besides "soliciting" from the pulpit, sometimes I believe he is like a Carnie who bait and switch (oh CCC won't cost $100, $150 million or whatever it will end up with)
Thats why alot of us can't trust this unreliable CARNIE with his divine ? strategies. What a manipulative pastor.
god forgive us..u r rite..we hv been pampering SP & wife for so long until they also expect to be pampered even when they are not pampered. did u know tat during his grandkids' bdays, all the staff are expected to buy bday presents for them - not like they have any choice but they have to since they nd to carry big leg, it's his way or the highway u see. and all the church celebrations we ever had, ie anniversary for years in service, birthday, wedding anniversary..all have only been for sp & his missus. none of the other associate pastors are ever recognize publicly for their bdays, serving, anniversary etc. eh..these associates pastors oso gave their lives to serve God wat..not only SP & wife.
Thats why I say enough is enough. Its about time somebody say "THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES"
I'm ashamed when other christians state you need to celebrate this pastor's titles on your Calvary news instead of Glorifying God and our Lord Jesus.
Stewarding God's money in the mission field instead of hoarding it in CIM (SP personal hoard for what? Or is another creative form of financing ala rapacious WAll St CEO).
the worst thing now is tat he is letting his "ma zhai" defend him so he never hv to personally defend himself. it's his ma zhai now tat are stuttering/suffering as they are running out of excuses to protect him. i say,"Ma zhai..step aside and let the man speak for himself!"
Lord forgive us even more for now only i know we have sinned even greater by involving SP's grandkids.
Sorry TT members, you have a more difficult job ahead. Now i see even more reason why SP & wife & family will not leave the church. Not only are they receiving $$$, they also got birthday gifts every year from church staff. Wah 30 staff = 30 presents. some rich church members and yes, BOD also.
We have not only pampered but also end up promoting him instead of HIM.
enough is enough is the rite phrase. for so many yrs, all of us hv been close to idolizing sp, not directly but based on the vip treatment he has been getting from us, the church.but guess we couldn't see it then as we,like his ma zhais now, were blinded by his charisma and smooth talking
god forgive us..u r rite again
I pity Church staff with all the extra burdens. So take heed DO NOT take up paid positions at CHURCH if you do not want to be tainted. Not worth it.
Let us pray and seek God's will and direction.
Be still and know that I am God. Lets just do that and allow Him to show us His way.
It hurts to see whats is happening and to allow it to continue.
Correlate and connect what SP said, at the CCC Contract 2 award (see Calvary News May-June 2008), and "info said" here in this blog
His ties with freemasonry is untenable.
Since when are we a benevolent organization to mitigate or enhance societal economic problems.
Correlate and connect what SP said, at the CCC Contract 2 award (see Calvary News May-June 2008), and "info said" here in this blog
His ties with freemasonry is untenable.
Since when are we a benevolent organization to mitigate or enhance societal economic problems.
First action is to rescind all pledges, promises, CARNIval f/raising and obtain "bricks" refunds because CCC was mala fide.
One more point on the testimonies..( minta maaf, rancangan tergendala sebentar..)
The Pastor couple came to KL to attend conference by faith--why i said that? They shared : they needed 5000(their currencies) to be here for 2 weeks. one week up North--ministering on prayers, one week here. Their ticket cost is about 2500 to 3000 ( again their currencies) each, normal class not biz class.travelling and hotel cost and conference cost, everything self paying. They were not having enough money but finally manage to raise just enough.
The pastor himself got to go to work for 5 days for one of the church members to make up the total amount.Thanks and Praise God, they have such FAITH to move on and fly over here..what's my point? why Calvary Church Senior Pastor 's and wife can travel for conference and ministry without having to be self funding?
sorry, typo error: travel ticket is 2500-3000(their currencies) for two persons.
hey the CEO of CC not only gets gifts for his birthday from the staff but also for Christmas. I remember one of his birthdays, must go to this Japanese restaurant in KL. Expensive onela. Apparently that is his favourite restaurant. So all staff must pay for it.For Christmas must also give something. Otherwise will kena black mark. Can not blame the staff becos they are working there. See how we are forced to spoil that guy. But CEO has also been blessing other people. I know he gave RM10K to a staff that migrated oversea.
Lets be our own Mission Director and give tithes and offerings to those needy ourselves.
Hi Anonymous,
It's me, Ah Beng.
No, I am not suggesting anything lah. I was merely thinking aloud that perhaps SP is also into Creative Accounting. Hmm..... SP always fly (business class - of course) off to USA, could SP have bumped into these "CEOs" by chance & learnt a few things from them?
Hey, I was just thinking aloud again lah. Wah! Better qualify myself before Anonymous say that I am suggesting things again. Phew! So difficult to blog nowadays, must be very careful ah?
Btw Anonymous, your comment that "No wonder CCC is estimated $330 million. The bigger the project the larger the kickback la. Oh, forgot extra ROT (rule of thumb) of KB (kickback) is 10% or more la." Are you suggesting that SP got kickback of 10% of RM 330 million which means SP got ...eh....RM 33 million (hey, correct ah Accountant; I not very good at maths man).
If correct then, the RM 1.9 million from CC to CIM is just "wet wet pieces", oops I mean "sap sap suey" (in Cantonese). Sorry ah, if you don't understand Cantonese, I don't know how to translate lah because I not Cantonese mah!
Last time I heard that a brother had stated at an EGM in CC that he had just learnt that night from the Deacon that Christians also can "up the figure" (= lie) when the Deacon, who was answering the brother's question on the application for the income tax exemption, said that it was not true that the BOD had knew, 6 months earlier, that the total costs for CCC had escalated to RM 185 million from RM 130 million but the BOD had merely "up the figure" when sending in the application for tax exemption.
Now tonight, we are all learning that as Christians we can accept kickbacks since Anonymous suggest that SP also can mah so follow the leader loh.
Haiyo! Now I very confused lah because all along I hear SP preaching that we cannot do so. Can someone out there please help me ah?
My sources tell me that the staff really dread the celebration of the 'royal' grandchildren's birthdays!
Why is that? Cos they'd better buy expensive presents, wot! And ALL the grandkids birthdays are celebrated in church office every year, compulsory attendance, too, so can you imagine the 'holes' in the pockets of the staff?
To all the Anonymous(es) out there, are you all one & the same Anonymous (since there is no copyright on that)?
If not, just so the rest of us get to address the right individual, can all of you stop using Anonymous & use some other name?
Otherwise can all of you agree to individualise yourselves by identifying yourselves as Anonymous 1, Anonymous 2, Anonymous 3, etc., etc.? Like that not so confusing for simple Ah Beng & others like me. Thank You u ah.
Goodnight, got to catch some beauty sleep now.
to: mum's the word
As much as I don't like the family, but I need to correct this. It is not true that they celebrate ALL the grandkids birthdays yearly. So far, they've only celebrated the first birthdays of the grandkids. And no church staff is forced to buy presents for them.
But when it comes to SP and SAP birthdays, it's a different story lah. Staff must pay to go for dinner and buy presents.
Dear all
let's just let this poor misguided soul alone. as can be seen, he has major personal issues and needs deliverance. poor fella
dear insider,
Thanks for the correction. That was the impression I had from my sources. No doubt they were not forced to buy presents, but WHO DARES NOT to buy presents?
Well, it's NOT a rule per se to buy presents for SP & SAP during their birthdays,wedding anniversary, Christmas, and special occasions, but when our pastors take the lead by doing so, it's hard NOT to buy, otherwise you stick out like a sore thumb, and you know what...
aiyoyo..so tough to be a church staff-ah. Must celebrate SP & SAP's birthdays, anniversaries etc etc. No wonder most of the staff(except pastors & G kids)so broke all the time.
let's pray that SP & SAP are removed so that their fat salaries can re-distributed to the other church staff. about time, they enjoy some blessings.
All church staff, pray along with us for your own good.
ss..not only r they broke all the time, but all of them have cried before at least once while working in church..and i don't mean the sort of after being touched by the Holy Spirit crying. that one's fine as you will feel renewed and refreshed after a good cry, but i'm talking abt the type of crying coz got scolded by sp...okla, maybe one or 2 of the staff do deserve the scolding but not the rest...so cham rite
So cham is correct, lah!
What's worse, SP & SAP also show no respect for them - their expired foodstuff (canned food which they couldn't finish because they receive so many hampers) will be bought back to the church sooner or later(after they have expired, i.e.) for the staff to take home to eat, whosoever will!
Hey SS,
Talking about CC staff being broke all the time, I heard this one leh. A certain Associate Pastor needed a new mobile phone but he was too broke to buy one. So he decided to ask his ultimate boss (not SP lah, SP only his boss), God, to bless him with a phone.
God says "ask & it shall be given" so the AP put this into practice by praying about his need & God actually bless AP by allowing him to win a mobile phone in one of those contests.
Then there is this other AP who was so happy to testify that the Lord bless him with RM300 worth of Shell petrol, again in a contest.
Wah! So unfair uh? Our APs & staff so "pok kai yow", they need to ask God through praying for their needs (but at least this builds up their faith in their ultimate boss, God).
Whereas our SP is so highly paid that he practise a different type of "ask & it shall be given". Instead of asking God, SP ask his crony(s) for the RM 1.9 million funds & it was given to him quietly over a 6 years period until God "tak boleh tahan" & God revealed it to the TT crew whom He raised up for a time like this.
Praise be to God! And Thanks be to God for raising up the TT crew & others who are all seeking for Truth, Transparency & Governance (TTG) in CC. Some people have referred to this group of Concerned Calvarites as Teh Tarik Group (TTG), I think henceforth we should refer to the group of Concerned Calvarites as TTG group - not "teh tarik group" BUT "Truth, Transparency & Governance" group.
Hey, TT crew does this sound more in line with your calling ah?
Thanks ah beng. Once again you live up to your name "bright". Please continue to shine for Jesus.
We'll discuss this next time we meet while sipping our teh tarik. Whatever the name is not important, it is living up to the calling that is important.
We'll surely think on it. God bless.
Hey Sob Sob,
Did you hear about the SP special "LOTT" treatment? The one where when SP is not happy with you he will show his disgust by putting his "Legs On The Table". I read about this in another blog, I think it was on Spikeee's blog.
It seems this was confirmed by an AP (Associate Pastor) to the TT crew but the AP said that's SP's way of relaxing. Then TT crew said that SP can do the "LOTT" when relaxing in private but SP must put down his legs when someone else comes into the room.
The AP answered "the trouble with Asian ...". He was stopped in mid sentence as the TT crew was indignant (i.e. Godly anger) & did not allow AP to finish his sentence. TT crew asked "since when has SP become a Mat Salleh, he is as Asian as you & me. I have worked for 35 years & I have also served under some Mat Sallehs, I thank God that none of my bosses ever did that to me & neither have I ever done that to anyone. I do not want to hear about SP giving the "LOTT" treatment to anybody henceforth".
Btw, this exchange of words was witnessed by another AP, a Deacon & another TT crew member. Believe you me that the foregoing is the "Truth & nothing but the whole Truth" because I have also heard this 1st hand "from the horses' mouth" for confirmation.
Don't take my word for it, ask around as quite a few APs, CC staff & Calvarites have kena the "LOTT" treatment from SP over the years. Unfortunately, no one dared to voice this out & thus SP has grown to be the monster that he now is today. May God have mercy on SP.
Hullo ER & SP, it's been more than 6 months since the AGM & you still haven't given us the Extended Ministries' Audited Accounts for the year ended 31st Dec 2007. Why so long ah?
I thought it was promised by ER that they would be ready by June 2008 which was more than 3 & 1/2 months ago. Are there anything therein which SP is afraid to show us? More skeletons in the closet? What sort of stewards are you for Him?
was reading the papers today and read that expats in Spore have to now cut back on their perks/allowances. Many companies including mine have also revised their travelling policies to cut costs- everyone needs to travel economy class.hm, wonder if CC will also revise its travelling policy for SP,wife and son as well as cut back on perks/allowances.hm
hi guys..in case u were wondering what 'hm' meant in my comment above..it is actually an expression as in hmmmm.. and does not mean that it is written by bro. hong meng. sorry for any confusion caused!
Another Commemorative Book?
Someone said that last year, the Communications Dept of the Church was to have published yet another commemorative book for SP to honour himself & his wife for 40 years in Ministry. Anyone who wish to confirm this fact, was told to verify with Audrey Kum. Now, whatever happened to it, does anyone know? Perhaps, left on the back burner, since the leadership crisis did not 'go away'. But, it was also said, because of this crisis, it was quickly changed to celebrating CC's 40th annviversary, to avoid the brickbats.
So, here is another truth that need to be unearthed. SIGH:(
Hope whoever get to find out 'the truth, nothing but the truth' first, will tell us,please.
Thanks.
Original INTENTION
I read a letter sent to some prominent calvarites recently requesting them to attend this 40th anniversary celebration.
I remember reading something to this effect, if they can't attend to write a CONGRATULATORY MESSAGE for the occassion.
Just wondering, if one were to write such a message, who would you highlight as the STAR OF THE NIGHT. I really hope those who wrote did not PRAISE SP for 40 successful and wonderful and good job etc etc he has done for the church.
In fact, SP should write and thank the church for giving him the platform to elevate himself and gave him all the riches that he has even till his grand children don't have to work for a living.
If I were one of the "prominent persons" invited and can't or do not wish to attend, my congratulatory message should read as follows:
Dear members of Calvary Church, Kuala Lumpur,
My sincere apologies for not being able to attend your anniversary dinner, as I'm unable to reconcile between the fact that our great fellowship is actually 47 years old but you are celebrating only 40.
For those of you who are unaware, Calvary Church as a fellowship of believers in our Lord Jesus Christ is 47 years old, although the physical structure is 40 years old.
Let's not rob God of 7 additional years of His Glory, of how he enabled committed believers led by Pastor Jones way back in 1961 to launch out in faith to pioneer Calvary Church.
As you rejoice and give thanks to God during the anniversary dinner, my sincere prayer is that you will also thank our Almighty Father for the 7 pioneering years too, and for all those who have laboured in love so that all of you who came after them can have a part in this assembly.
Rejoice in the Lord for His 47 years of faithfulness."
God bless.
Ah Ngau, class of '61.
To all bros & sis in Christ who are calvarites, I gathered from the blog there are great differences and issues that both sides cannot see eye to eye.I am not saying there is untruth in the allegations made against SP and BOD but I believe a 2nd closed-door EGM should be requisited by the calvarites to seek clarifications and answers to all allegations against the church administration and the deacons only when request for informal meetings between 2 sides to resolve any misunderstanding and difference in opinions is denied.
In my opinion every calvarite including SP and BOD have contributed in one way or another towards the building and growth of Calvary Church.In any dispute, I believe both sides should not try to prove which side is dominant or stronger or holier but to humble ourselves for the glory of God and not to misuse the name of Jesus for own glory and purposes.
Even if the request for EGM and informal meetings are denied, the next AGM may be ideal platform to make changes through voting processes.
Personally I think to call EGM to remove SP and BOD is too harsh because it does not give glory to God to see his servants being "humiliated" although like us, he does make mistakes and we should not usurped the position of God to pass judgement on his annointed servants.
Instead the EGM should be called to discuss proposals to strengthen the role of CC to fulfill the God purposes for us through reforming the church constitution and organisation set up that will result in strengthening unity and bonds between the calvarites and Church pastors and deacons.
At the same time, I would urge all calvarites pray for reconciliations, forgiveness and unity and divine intervention because if the current crisis continues, Satan and his demons will emerge victorious over our brusing,disheartened and hurt souls.
Let us pray: Father God, forgive us for trespassing and our hurting souls to see disunity and mistrusts amongst the calvarites, SP and BOD in the midst of our obedience to fulfill your vision of CCC.Father God, give us humility, wisdom and instructions as how we are going to fulfill your vision of CCC through your Holy Spirit.Father God, we trust and believe that you will meet all our needs and that you will prepare and provide the neccessary provisions for CCC.Father God bless and accept our offerings whether it is love offerings,tithes, mission offerings or CCC pledges which are made out of our love for you and in obedience to your words.We pray for all the above in the named of your Beloved Son, Jesus Christ.Amen
Dear Bro.Eric,
I can see that your intentions are genuine and sincere but perhaps you are quite new to church and are not very familiar with how the AGM/EGMs are conducted? If you've been attending the AGMs over the past many years, you'll be able to see that it is controlled by the Chairman (SP).Nothing much can be resolved from just an AGM/EGM as SP does not have any intention to change his wicked ways and will not stop to shut his opposers up.You are right that everyone makes mistakes but it is a matter of whether that person actually owns up to that mistake or keeps denying his errors and in return, condemns the people who pointed out his mistakes. The majority of the members in CC has lost respect for SP, so if he continues on as SP of CC, the whole church will go down the drain and that is when the devil will triumph. SP is a bad shepherd who cares more about himself than his sheep. He would rather see his sheep get lost and scattered than to humble himself and repent.
Another naive member of Calvary Church. Eric Chong is obviously new to Calvary Church or......
Dear Eric,
Looks like you are actually so 'new' in the church that you don't know about the way SP manipulates EGMs and AGMs to suit his purposes!
One more thing...don't feel that SP & SAP shouldn't be 'removed' by force. Being 'humiliated' should be good for them - brings them down a peg or two! Anyway, I personally feel they are too thick-skinned to feel humiliated! They are still spewing out lies, denials and manipulating speakers to 'attack' those who belong to the TTG.
TTG have already tried the 'soft approach,' but it didn't work! So I hope you understand what we are dealing with - SP and SAP are SEASONED liars and covetors - they have had many years of experience so, there's no other way to remove them! However, if you really have a better plan, a workable one, I'm sure TTG would like to hear from you personally - you can approach them personally after Sunday service in church.
As a constructive step we have to
1. Bring the extended ministries back into CC's fold and and under qualified church personnel (whether asociate, assistant pastors or members). Open the process so that everything is aboveboard and all legal ramifications are resolved.. No nepotism, despotism or cronyism. PG and JG will have to compete for the head posts.
2. CIM rightfully belongs to CC. He has to start his GIM.
3. CCC to be reviewed in its entirety. SP and family should recuse themselves because of conflict of interest and competency unless they can prove it otherwise.
4. CC's constitution to be revamped so that despot and his dynasty can never be perpetuated. See "The Need for Constitutional Amendments" by WHM
To the DEVIL's advocates for subverting EGM process, and continual bogging down of this forum with diatribe, keen "desire to know and preaching 1/2 truths". You know we have struck or will be digging up the whole Truth. Your comments reflect that the inner circle is getting more than worried from the outpouring of baaa baaa baaa comments of us CC's sheep.
In response to your query,
A while back Anon asked
What's the AGENDA of SP and his supporters .....
He predicted
1. To cull the herd
2. To steal CC from members via CCC. To beggar/bankrupt CC through onerous debts and obligations, from one entity to another ( perhaps answering query about Calvaryland).
3. CIM will be another family "business" in conjuntion with CCC..
So whats the likely scenario. Besides internal there are external (incl. international) forces that are at work.
For we have "barbarians at the gates".
Yup,
1. Thru Church Membership constriction, attrition. Don't like it go jump in the Lake, leave the church etc.
2. Extended ministeries owned by G family. JG's AV portfolio (KB?) direct subsidies from church epf (oh yeah SP's epf my foot) - ever providing faithful.etc.
3. Thru stockpiling of profits and stashed loot in conjunction and under CIM takeover CCC.
Unlikely scenario?
Just asked the barbarians?
Asked Dr. Guynes etc. about SP and CIM roles for CCC.
Are the overseas funds/contributions going to CC or CIM?
Enuff is enuff
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