Zul Rafique & Partners replaces KK Wong
In a baffling move, Senior Pastor Prince Guneratnam (PG) recently applied to court to change the lawyer defending the Board of Deacons and him in the ongoing class action legal suit brought against them by a group of some 60-odd concerned Calvary Church members.
For reasons not known, he has replaced KK Wong with Zul Rafique & Partners. Zul Rafique & Partners was one of the legal firms which a few of the Plaintiffs had consulted before the commencement of the present legal suit. However, the Plaintiffs subsequently did not engage this legal firm and opted instead to engage a Christian legal firm.
KK Wong, who is a well-known Christian lawyer had, in October 2010 suggested that the Plaintiffs put in a proposal to the Defendants for an out-of-court settlement, in the interest of the Christian community. The Plantiffs agreed to the suggestion and promptly submitted their proposal to KK Wong. However, PG rejected the Plaintiffs’ proposal outright without even bothering to make a counter-proposal.
Shortly after, at the case management on 6 January 2011, the Court was informed that Zul Rafique & Partners has now taken over the defence from KK Wong.
Despite the slap in the face, the Plaintiffs pursued the route for an amicable resolution
to the ongoing crisis and made a new proposal for a Court-assisted Mediation, which is a newly adopted process in the Malaysian legal system, designed to encourage disputes among families and communities to be resolved amicably out-of-court.
The Court Mediation is now set to take place on 24 March 2011. In the event the Mediation process fails, the case will be heard on 12 April 2011.
The Church leaders have not, until today, updated the members on the change of lawyers or the developments leading to the change. They have only merely announced the Court Mediation and Hearing dates. That’s transparency, Calvary Church KL-style.
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It's time to unite in our common quest for truth, transparency, good governance, stewardship and accountability in our broken and hurting Church. Until the above goals are achieved, this is what you can do:-
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
1. Stop Giving to Calvary. If you wish, you may re-direct your giving to worthy Christian organisations, Bible schools, orphanages, smaller churches which are struggling financially or non-church sponsored missionaries or missions work. However, if God specifically tells you to give to Calvary or you are uncomfortable about not giving to Calvary, please continue to do so.
2. Pray. Pray for God's forgivessness and cleansing of our Church as a body for all the injustice, unethical practices and bad stewardship that we have condoned or been blind to over the years. Pray against the principalities and evil forces that have crowded the minds and vision of our leaders. Pray for unrighteousness, covetousness and pride to be removed from our midst. Pray for God's truth and sovereign will to fall afresh on our Church. Pray for His healing for our broken hurting Church.
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The Bario Revival 1973 Revisited. A must read for all Malaysian Christians.
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TTG in the newspapers again. "Christian & Politics".
How Pastors Get Rich
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Christians and Law Suits
Our Pastors often quote 1 Corinthians 6 as a basis that Christians should not pursue legal action against one another. We must understand the context of Apostle Paul's admonishment and not simply quote the passage out of context. What does other Christian leaders say?
1. CHRISTIAN LAWSUIT by Dr. Paul Nah
2. CHRISTIAN INVOLVEMENT IN LAW SUITS by Dr. George Wood, the General Superintendent of AG, USA
3. WHEN IT'S RIGHT TO GO TO COURT by Doug Goins.
1. CHRISTIAN LAWSUIT by Dr. Paul Nah
2. CHRISTIAN INVOLVEMENT IN LAW SUITS by Dr. George Wood, the General Superintendent of AG, USA
3. WHEN IT'S RIGHT TO GO TO COURT by Doug Goins.
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2. A letter from a former Regular Worshipper
3. A letter from a Calvarite
4. An ex-Calvarite comments on CCC
5. Axed for attending TTG meeting
6. Letters from Overseas
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64 comments:
Wow, Zul Rafique is a really expensive firm. PG is using very heavy weaponry to fight for him. He must be scared.
Fr CT2 @ March 10, 2011 4:32 PM
PG's arrogance is now there for everyone to see. Wonder why his followers and the leaders in CC are still walking with around with eyes open but do not see. Maybe they left their brains in the fridge each time they go to church or meet him
His arrogance has come to the fore. There are distinctly three efforts by concerned Christians to mediate in this unpleasant saga. One, the effort by the prominent Calvarite and AOG General Superintendent. Two, the efforts by NECF and three, the suggestion by his counsel who is also a Christian in the interest of the Christian community.
Isn't it obvious that he is not interested in ending the issue. Remember he asked the people to forgive him him IF he had done wrong. Then his interview with the STAR reporter when he said that his door in always open for discussion. He is such a good actor!!! No need to go to drama school. Yeah, whatever he says, take it with a pinch of salt. He only says things to show that he is proactive but when it comes to action, his true colour shows. He does not walk the talk.
With his kind of behaviour, those who are still supporting him and the leaders in CC should now give it serious thoughts whether PG is the spiritual leader that is following God's ways. Look around you and can't you see the abundant examples and evidence of his lost in the calling.
Fr CT2 @ March 10, 2011 6:32 PM
Well PG is rich enough to engage the most expensive lawyer that's for sure but he better be paying for the lawyer from his own pocket. We are looking closely at the account from now on and paying close attention to any "legal fees" or "special fees" or anything new item that he may cook up for the church to absorb his legal fees as church expenses.
Fr CT2 @ March 10, 2011 7:06 PM
'in the interest of the saints communities' is the way to go, but opted for lucifer and his agents as his defender,
the anti-christ are really here to rehearse their deceiving ploy, pray, pray and cling on to our salvations...the saints go marching on, dear lord include us...
Fr CT2 @ March 10, 2011 9:15 PM
LEGAL FEES
You brought up an extremely good point - those who choose to stay behind in CC despite the saga should be "salt of the earth" to make sure there is no hanky-panky legal fees. TTG have been all sacked and may the Lord use those who remain be His mouthpiece.
The plantiffs DID NOT PRESS CHARGES on CC but on PG and the BOD.
There CC should not bear the legal fees which should be picked up by PG and BOD.
Fr CT2 @ March 10, 2011 11:21 PM
HAVE YOU FOUND YOUR ARK?
Throughout history the Lord had always warned His people about the wrath that is about to come upon them because of sin in the Camp (Church Congregation)
A PLEA FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT:
Flee from the wrath that is about to come upon those (congregation) who continue to support leaders who are an abomination (i.e. a person who is loathsome or disgusting) in the sight of the Lord.
Except for Noah, his family and selected animals, God destroyed by water all people because of the wickedness of man and the evil intent of their hearts and mind.
He destroyed Sodom by fire because of grievous wickedness.
The Bible has many examples how He saved INDIVIDUALS from a SINFUL CONGREGATION for our lesson.
DON'T BE ANOTHER EXAMPLE - FLEE!
It should be evident that disobedience and wickedness is not tolerated by God and those who practice such will also be destroyed unless they turn from their wickedness and obey the will of God.
Christianity does not join people together. No, it separates them in order to unite every single individual with God.
And when a person has become such that he can belong to God and to God alone, he has died away from that which usually joins people together - ungodly fellowship, i.e. a fellowship (or congregation) that is not sanctioned by the Lord!
Every call from God is always addressed to ONE single individual - ONE MEMBER - ONE PERSON - NOT THE CONGREGATION.
Precisely in this lies the difficulty and the examination, that the ONE who is called must stand alone, walk alone, alone with God.
But in the separation from the CONGREGATION, that ONE PERSON will come under the Lord's protection.
GOD WILL BE HIS/HER PROTECTOR AND DELIVER THAT ONE WHO PUTS HIS/HER TRUST IN GOD.
That ONE will be saved from the WRATH that is about to fall upon the CONGREGATION!
Soren Kierkegaard from: The Glory of a Heart Fully Alive: Waking the Dead!.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ March 11, 2011 12:18 PM
So on 6 January 2011,PGs had engaged "SECULAR LAWYERS" Zul Rafique & Partners to take over the defence from KK Wong.
Let's continue to FAST and PRAY for the HOLY SPIRIT to represent the TTG's efforts to REMOVE the Negative Thinking & Arrogant CC leaders " !
Fr CT2 @ March 11, 2011 12:22 PM
What is the probable reason that PG change his counsel? Most likely it is because KK Wong suggested that the matter be settled out of court in the interest of the Christian community. There is no sincerity on PG's part to put an end to this saga and being arrogant and suspicious of the motives of even his own counsel, made him change. He is always "me" and not "you" and feels he is above all others. A day will come when he will be suspicious even of his own shadow!
I read in the blog that the Gen. Supt. of AOG Malaysia was agreeable to mediate and also that the Gen. Supt. AOG Malaysia is the Host Chairman for PWC 2013. Is this the same person? If it is, then I would not put too much weight on his neutrality. Further how about Ronnie Chin who was the Chairman of the EGM? The bottom line is whether AOG Malaysia will be neutral cos PG was their mentor and the Gen. Supt. Emeritus. Isn't this food for thought?
Fr CT2 @ March 11, 2011 8:15 PM
Are the Assoc. pastors in CC paid very well and living in the comfort zone? Your guess is as good as mine. Look at the statistics. Timothy, Peter have passed their retirement age according the the Handbook of Employment. And probably Steven would have hit the mark too. Where can they go to find another pastoral job that will pay more than RM12k a month? Don't forget Timothy's daughter was also assisted by CC financially when she went to USA.
PG will hang onto his position for "dear life" because CC is a cash cow for him, PG2 and his family. He does not seem to see that he is no longer held in high esteem anymore. In politics, two pm's and three party heads had called it quits. South of the border LKY and GHT, too. In church, Robert Lim who the founder of his church is now helm by his son Dale. Further away, David Yonggi Cho has passed the position of Senior pastor. But here PG is hnaging on and hanging on by a thread!
Fr CT2 @ March 11, 2011 8:33 PM
It has been a long while since any speaker from the pulpit shares a down-to-earth message. Today Dr. Joel Edwards shared some interesting points during his message.
Observation 1: He said "sometimes the local church go to pieces." How true! CC is indeed breaking up. Members move on to other churches because of the mismanagement and lack of transparency and good governance. Members are sacked without valid reasons but to satisfy PG's ego and arrogance.
Observation 2: "Pastors stealing money from the church." If a pastor transfers money which does not belong to him to his personal ministry (whatever it is) without prior approval and then come out with all the reasons in the world when the matter is in the open, it is a denial syndrome. In short, it is stealing!
I wonder whether Dr. Joel's message will go down well with PG. With his self-centred attitude, he may brush it off.
Fr CT2 @ March 13, 2011 2:01 PM
Brilliant move by Pam and PG for Pam to leave her ministry in CC! PG2 sings so loudly and pride of Pam and Jim serving in the church that it is extremely hard to swallow the fact that she has left the CC and go into the secular world WITHOUT PG's and PG2's approval and blessing.
In one strategic move, Pam will be able to make with a blink of the eye millions if her dad awards her the contract for furnitures and furnishings and interior decorations of CCC. Let's see whether PG practices nepotism and also conflict of interest. For whatever reasons if a family member is in a position to receive financial gain because of the action by another family member when it is not a solely family enterprise, it is conflict of interest.
The bottomline is that PG in all respects is still an employee of the CC. PG is not the founder of the church and was brought into CC years after it was established. In other words, he must be answerable to CC who is his employer. But somehow over the years, he has plotted and twisted the deacons round his fingers that he has become untouchable and running as his own private enterprise. However a day will come when he will be like Lady Macbeth who said "Out. Damned spot" in the Shakespearean play with his guilt.
Fr CT2 @ March 13, 2011 2:25 PM
I am greatly saddened to read about the events taking place in Calvary today.Rev Steven Kum,and the rest- have you decided to sink with the ship? So you have decided to engage Zul Rafique as CC new lawyers.CC should have insisted to settle this the Biblical way but now you are engaging very expensive lawyers.You are not fit to lead the people of God. In fact I think you are a complete disgrace and
backslidden.Grrrrrr!!!!
Fr Untitled post in CT2 @ March 14, 2011 10:49 AM
Let's remember to Fast and Pray for the Tsunami VICTIMS & Survivors in North Eastern Japan. PRAY especially for the Spirit of the LIVING GOD to cover and bless the Nation of Japan as we ponder over our Christian brothers and sisters in Japan !
AMEN ! Calvary church problems is not a natural disaster, it is Man made bought about by Stubborn human CC leaders!
Fr CT2 @ March 14, 2011 12:14 PM
I thank God for this article in this blog.My family and I used to attend an AOG church.We became sick of the Honor the Pastor crap but kept our thoughts to ourselves.Free trips to Langkawi,Penang,dinners and gifts at homes and at fancy restaurants while the rest were slogging away.IT seems th whole Christian fellowship was centered around him - not God.And he was a terribly insecure man.This article on this blog really opened my eyes.We are worshipiing in a simple Christian fellowship now.Its back to honouring Christ.
The AOG-Honor The Pastor Scam
Money focused churches tend to be run on cultic patterns. One of these cultic patterns is the division of the church into exclusive rings: the all-powerful pastor perched at the center, the inner-ring of sycophants around him consisting of the pastor's lieutenants and the church's privileged class (the rich,the famous and the very young & pretty), and the outer-ring of the ordinary folk(unsually plain stupid) who would love to be in the inner-ring, but are not.
The power of those in the inner-ring is determined by the amount of favor the pastor bestows upon them.
To get more favor the inner-ring will employ many favor-currying measures, one of which is a scam called "Honoring the Pastor". It works this way, the inner-ring will figure out what the pastor would like, say for his birthday. Then the inner-ringers will squeeze the outer-ringers for the money to buy this item.
Using this method pastors have been "given": diamond rings for their wives, cash gifts, jet skis, luxury cruises, motorbikes, cars, holidays, boats, and a myriad of other expensive luxury items.
Are the pastors complicit in this game? Of course they are. They couldn't demand the gift openly themselves, but seek plausible deniability by having their inner-ring lieutenants do the work. Of course they could refuse the gift when it is presented, and make it clear that they don't want the Lord's money spent on such things again, but they never do. These pastors exchange their favor, for cash from their congregation.
Your Counter Strategy: Unless it's something reasonable like a bunch of flowers for the pastor's wife, don't give to this sort of fund raising.
Fr CT2 @ March 14, 2011 6:31 PM
CT - CONTENT MANAGEMENT.
Dear CT by now you would know that many have been blessed by this Blog - both within and outside of Calvary Church.
May I suggest when the present leadership of Calvary church is disposed; you will form a team to sift through the knowledge content with CT. The purpose is to glean valuable insights and lessons learned that may be preserved in a media so that other Christians can benefit from the knowledge held within CT.
The testimonies in CT clearly indicate that Christians in Malaysia have benefited from the Blog and have applied the knowledge to discern the evils of Rogue Christian Leaders within their church setting.
You already have an index and this makes it easier to accomplish this task. What need to be included will be carefully edited spiritual principles supported by Scriptures that reflect what has been Blogged to enable readers to associate real life experiences shared in CT with Biblical Truth.
Since by than Calvary Church will be in the hands of the righteous leaders, you may set up a sub-website within Calvary website and place this knowledge. OR it can be delivered via CD-ROM or hard-copy publication or both.
Something to pray about and seek the Lord's guidance how best to share the knowledge.
NEVERTHELESS – it would be a tragic shame if the knowledge content within CT disappears after the Calvary saga ends!
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ March 15, 2011 8:22 AM
(1)Heard from online China news that a Christian Pastor in North eastern Japan saved his 800 members flock from the onslaught of the Tsunami by LISTENING to God guidance to remain & stayed put patiently on higher DRY Ground above sea level ever since Wed 9-3-11 , Thurs 10-3-11 & Friday 11-3-11 !
(2)Second earthquake 8.9 and 3 meter Tsunami struck on the 3RD day 11-3-2011.
(3) Patiently LISTEN to our LORD GOD and you will be SAVED !
(3) Let's continue to FAST and PRAY for the SPIRIT of our LIVING GOD to BLESS the nation of JAPAN as the whole nation mourns her lost ones small, young and old !
(4) The stubborn & negative CC leadership should take note & seek REPENTANCE as the DAYS are drawing near ! Do Not and Never TEST GOD in your Folly ! AMEN !
Fr CT2 @ March 15, 2011 2:08 PM
CONFESSIONS OF AN EX-PASTOR
I was very much amused after reading a write up by anonymous
"Honor the Pastor Scam".To be honest,please forgive me- I burst out laughing uncontrollably.Finally the scam is being exposed.And a little ray of light is coming out of this blog.
I used to be a Pastor. I will not mention where I was trained or which denomination.I will take responsibility for my own actions.
I left Pastoring about 10 years ago and am now working in the secular world.The biggest mistake Christians make is this- if someone is trained in theology and is given a title - then he must be a Pastor.By a stroke of magic- suddenly the man behaves spiritual and talks spiritual but oftentimes thay are hurtful if you cross them.Regretably many such leaders have no shepharding heart.They hurt those who disagree with them by preaching against them.Satan uses people from behind the pulpit too.
I could preach- but I could not teach.Most of my sermons were downloaded from the computer- sometimes from others Pastors computers or the result of just scribbling something just before the sermon.Very little prayer involved.In the privacy of my room-see pornography.Most of the fellowship with other ministers- was nothing but wasting time at some cheap eating stalls and running down Catholics,Muslims other ministers and Christians who dared to question the leadership.This is the truth.
One day-a fellow Pastor(has an expensive watch and Star Cruise holidays from the Honor the Pastor thing)had excommunicated a brother & family from his church.And announced it from the pulpit!!I knew the brother- to me he was of noble character.Definitely much nobler than us.The Pastors words- "He can go and fly kites!!"(while flashing his expensive watch) I realized there that this Pastor had just wounded a whole Christian family because the brother did not agree with the Pastor on certain issues! What gave him the authority to do this?I felt so helpless.A terrible conviction came upon me and I was suddenly downcast for weeks.I realized that one day we have to answer to God for our actions and that I was not above the judgment of God.God shows no favouritism- Dalai Lama,Ayatollah or the Rev.Like all others, my life will end someday.I dont want to hear a voice on that day saying- " Depart from me for I never knew you." If this is ministry and if this is the kind of fellowship I have with Pastors-people who hurt others in the name of God- I decided to renounce it.God help me to get out.I heard wrong. This is not Gods calling.
Till Today I am not well established in the secular world- but I feel better spiritually. First thing I did over the years was to return all moneys that I had borrowed from brothers and sisters over the years. I felt a great burden was lifted from my soul.
I still support mission in a few churches- but none of my hard earned money goes to building churches or this conjob- thats what it is- Honouring the Pastor Scam.I am glad that a little ray of light is coming out of this blog.
I believe that this blog did not start with the intention of tearing apart any church.
But I sense along this journey God has been usuing this blog to open the eyes of other believers-leading to maturity.Every week the church of God is filled with Christians who struggle silently with various issues, who believe what they are told,who give their money sincerely believing they are giving to God. To manipulate these Christians and fleecing them, is in my opinion, heartless -and a most grievious sin.
A Repentant Ex-Pastor.
Fr CT2 @ March 15, 2011 5:25 PM
Dear repentant ex-Pastor,
Thanks for sharing. Appreciate your courage and getting real with fellow men and God.
You are on the right track. To be a Pastor, one has to be anointed and called to be a servant. To be a shepherd, one has to be like Jesus and cannot deceive nor turn down any sheep.
It is better to step down and be a good Christian than 'pretend' to be half a Pastor. I believe deep inside one knows who he is and if he is called to fill that role of a Pastor.
I'm sure you are a good man with a humble heart. Chin up and press on and God will surely bless the work of your hands.
Admire your courage once again.
God bless you :)
Fr CT2 @ March 15, 2011 6:52 PM
don't be a pastor if you can't be a pastor spiritually and humanly, not just feed spiritual food but food to the physical being as well, jesus did not just provide spititual food but physical food as well, might sound unpleasant but true.
i can not agree with anyone who serve God in church full time n back to the world to work, ..do not make God a fool with what ever reason u have...have mercy lord with many who called bible school "gratuate" just for their own gain....
Fr CT2 @ March 16, 2011 12:34 AM
REAL CONTENT - A BLESSED TESTIMONY
Dear repentant ex-Pastor,
I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for your courage to share your testimony. Your testimony is REAL CONTENT that in days to come will open the eyes of Christians who have been spiritually blinded by the rhetoric of Rogue Pastors. This is the sort of CONTENT I want CT to preserve that others may be blessed.
We hope more leaders and Christians will share their testimonies in CT how the Lord has delivered them from "darkness" to light to bless others.
The Lord is indeed raising up a new army of God to pull down the strong holds of satan. CT exists in the WILL OF GOD.
Lastly, here is my two cents advice. All that has happened to you was within His will. He took you along that path - yes even when you were not a noble pastor for a purpose - that the Lord may one day use you in His Kairos time to share this testimony. He was guarding and guiding you every step of the way - even when the path seemed so unspiritual!
Remember, your past has been completed washed by the Blood of Jesus. He has never let go of you since the day you accepted Him and HE WILL HOLD ON TO YOU UNTIL HIS PURPOSE IN YOUR LIFE HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED.
Great and wonderful servant. I thank the Lord for raising you up Brother.
THANK YOU.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ March 16, 2011 8:05 AM
I am blessed by reading this blog. I am currently worshipping in an AOG church and I find that pastors are twisting Scriptures on order to raise money for church building or mission pledges.
AOG pastors used the book of Haggai and Malachi to encourage their congregation to give. If you are not faithful in giving, your financial wallets will have holes and you will never have enough for your needs.
Another favorite quote is ' your level of giving determines your level of blessings'
The prayer of Jabez is also well used. 'Even as you give, the Lord will enlarge your territory and extent the cords of your tents.'
Fr CT2 @ March 16, 2011 2:10 PM
Ought to be told:
1. WAY PAST RETIREMENT AGE of Service
Indeed,(anon 11 mar 8.15pm) all the present
Ass. pastors have passed their retirement age as
stipulated in the Staff Handbook.
Their present stay are not valid as no renewal of appointment was brought before the Congregation for approval.
It's an outright disregard of the 'RULE Book' by PG
and all the Ass.Ps themselves. They are the LAW onto themselves!
2. PROTECTED $$$ for THEIR SALARY & BONUS
Not many within or without are aware that PG has
ensured his, family & his Minion Ass.Ps Monthly Salaries, Perks and year end Bonus are set aside SECURELY for themselves. The amount runs up to a few RM Million$ so as to cover over a few years!
Now, think, would they ever leave their "service'" in Church ? you bet never! Not even when they Bankrupt the church coffers with the building of CCC--after all their INCOME are 100%!
Who are the real fools?--the giving Congregation to support these wolves in sheep skin.
3.BANK BORROWING of RM42 MILLIONS & more to come
Totally irresponsible! If any is projection done, the
Members would never be able to even service these
loans.
AMAZING! how PG & BOD never ever come forward to tell the congregation the details, they keep pulling wool over their eyes!
PG ultimate goal is to deceive or to last as CEO until 2013 when he stands in his glory as the the man of the hour for the World Pentecostal event in his CCC dream--
Q. Will it come to pass?
I believe God has other idea in-store for PG &
those in his boat.
Fr CT2 @ March 16, 2011 2:33 PM
The shaking has begun ( Middle East, Tsunami, Earthquakes etc) and what can be shaken will be shaken( especially carnal churches and rogue pastors in our midst). Behold judgement begins in the household of God. May God have mercy..
Fr CT2 @ March 16, 2011 4:57 PM
Dear brother Vijay...
You mentioned in one article about sin of omission. I truly agree with you. You are really insightful and I appreciate your sharing about CC and the sin of ommission for others who just sit, watch and do nothing.
I do have a question. My question is. Can a Pastor say that he doesnt want to be involved when approached for a Mediation meeting per I Cor 6? If one of his sheep sins against others, can a Senior Pastor say he refuses to be involved and continue to condone the malpractice?
I am in such a situation whereby these hypocrite Christians (SP and leaders) have become stumbling blocks to me. Mr spirit grieves.
The SP says he doesnt want to be involved. I am beginning to think now that maybe, just maybe (not judging but recognising a possibility) the offending party (a prominent and rich brother)is contributing tons of $$$ to his church.
Can you enlighten me if its OK for a Pastor or Leader of a prominent church in KL to condone wrongdoing and refusing to mediate?
I really feel sad, discouraged and bullied by them all.
If you would give me the permission to email you, I will elaborate further.
Many Tks..
Fr CT2 @ March 16, 2011 3:35 PM
What are the proposals you forth for an out-of-court settlement? Care to enlighten all of us? Thanks.
Last Sunday, the invited speaker from United Kingdom must be miraculously sent by Almighty God to convey a specific message to Calvarites during the morning service. Not sure whether he repeated the same message in the later services but he said, (relating to all kinds of problems plaguing the churches today), churches can be smelly inside. EVEN INVLUDING PASYORS STEALING FROM CHURCHES !!!!!!!!!
We doubt the invited speaker was "allowed" to repeat what he said about thieving pastors - PGs and Skum would have "corrected" him.
WHAT A FIRM CONFIRMATION FROM GOD HIMSELF ! What else do skeptics among CC congregation need or want to have as confirmmation about the evil, mean, thieving activities of the leadership in CC ?
Turn off the tap !!! TOTT !!!!TOTT !!!! Stop giving our money to CCC Project and for other CC collections. OUr money goes to supporting a dictator, his wive, his daughter and his son - to live the lives of filthy rich and famous !!!
Fr CT2 @ March 18, 2011 8:57 AM
The Real Truth, the Whole Truth is ... it does NOT matter an atom to GOd Almighty whether PG appoints Zul Rafique and Partners to fight for him in the law court on erath (human world). What matters to God and to we Christians is WHEN ALMIGHTY GOD Sits in Judgement of the sinful PGs, supporters pastors, BOD, etc.
Will they escape GOd's Judement Day and subsequent punishments IN HELL ? NO WAY.
Co relax and wait. God is in control.
Fr CT2 @ March 18, 2011 9:06 AM
TTH and other concerned CC members must start right away putting up several mechanisms / ways to recover suspected / alleged theft of church money.
Fr Ct2 @ March 18, 2011 9:11 AM
“Can a Pastor say that he doesn’t want to be involved when approached for a Mediation meeting per 1 Cor. 6?
If one of his sheep sins against others, can a Senior Pastor say he refuses to be involved and continue to condone the malpractice?
I really feel sad, discouraged and bullied by them all.”
Posted by Anonymous March 16, 2011 3:35 PM
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cor. 6 has a number of issues. As I do not have all the information, BUT BASED ON THE FACTS PRESENTED, SUCH A LEADER IS NOT FIT TO BE A PASTOR.
Furthermore, those Christians who discourage or bully you should be classified as ROGUE CHRISTIANS and subject to the Lord’s Judgment.
(PS. Dear Bro/Sis. I only saw your request this morning. Please e-mail if you are further troubled. Let us both agree and interceed for your situation! It ALWAYS trills me when the Lord JUDGES such people. Now that your situation has gone ‘public’, I expect the Lord to JUDGE and use your case as another LESSON LEARNED for Malaysian Christians. Don’t tempt the LORD!)
As a Christian leader. I have learned that addressing CONFLICT is one of the most difficult things we are called to do. However, I can share a few things that I have learned over the years.
As this is a rather long discussion. I have divided into 3 parts. (Sorry CT)
PART1 - LEADERS MUST BE ON THE OFFENSIVE
Too many leaders deal with strife from a defensive standpoint, and this is why they do not have as much success addressing and resolving disputes as they should.
Approaching conflict from an offensive posture means that they do not sit idly by with the hope that it goes away or that things get better. They take an active, aggressive and quick stand to address and resolve these situations whenever they come up.
This is what Jesus did, and a few examples in his life reveal how he took an offensive stand towards conflict.
At Mark chapter 3, the Pharisees were very upset with Jesus, because they felt he was wrong to heal sick people on the Sabbath day. As soon as Jesus sensed their anger, he did not wait.
He faced the situation head-on, and confronted them about their disagreement with him, to see if the issue could be quickly settled: “And He (Jesus) said to the man that had a withered hand, Step forward. Then he said to them (the Pharisees), Is it lawful to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill” (Mark 3:3-4).
He asked this question to elicit a response for further discussion.
When some of Jesus’ disciples were upset with him about what he was teaching, he immediately addressed the issue with them, to get them to discuss their differences, to see if they could have a meeting of the minds.
The gospel of John 6: 61 reveals this: “When Jesus knew in himself that the disciples complained about this, he said to them, Does this offend you?”
When Jesus’ disciples became indignant towards the woman with the alabaster box who poured ointment on Jesus head, Jesus did not allow for the conflict and argument to go on.
He took immediate action to quickly bring the dispute to an end: “And Jesus said, Let her alone: why trouble ye her? she hath wrought a good work on me” (Mark 14:6).
When members are fighting like this, sometimes you will need to correct them to bring the quarrel to an end.
Jesus encouraged people to deal with disputes quickly: “Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him: lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison” (Matthew chapter 5, verses 25).
Note: if the offending party refuse arbitration by the church/Christian community, he/she may be subject to the Court – note the verse mentions “JUDGE” & “PRISON”.
(See Part 2 below)
Vijay
Fr Ct2 @ March 18, 2011 12:30 PM
"If one of his sheep sins against others, can a Senior Pastor say he refuses to be involved and continue to condone the malpractice?"
Posted by Anonymous March 16, 2011 3:35 PM
********************************************************************
PART 2 - LEADERS MUST ISSUE STRONG DISCIPLINE
A Leader is to love the members and care for them. But, this does not mean that he is to put up with their improper conduct, and allow them to continue to stir up strife and problems.
In 2 The 3:14, “And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and DO NOT KEEP COMPANY with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother”.
The Leader must tell the members to separate from these ungodly individuals with the hope that the pain of being ostracized wakes these people up and makes them change their behavior.
If marking them does not work, the Leader may have to remove them from the congregation. Proverbs 22:10 encourages such action, when it is merited: “Cast out the scoffer, and contention will leave; Yes, strife and reproach will cease”.
Another passage which advises removing the ungodly whose presence in the Church is causing strife is Proverbs 26:20: “Where there is no wood, the fire goes out; and where there is no talebearer, strife ceases”.
As these passages say, causing troublemakers to leave will bring conflict to an end. When other members of the congregation know leaders will take strong action, it will also stop them from stirring up strife in the future.
Such a stand does not win friends or make Leaders popular. But, sometimes Leaders have to remove people from the congregation to make sure that the church is what it is supposed to be, a place of blessing, which provides an atmosphere of peace where the love of God can flow.
It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves” (Matt 21:13). Once Jesus removed them, healing was restored: “Then, the blind came into the temple, and he healed them” (Matt 21:14). Also, joy was restored, as indicated by the little children singing beautiful songs of praise in the temple (Matt 21:15).
Restoration of peace and joy are what return to a congregation when the scorners and unruly who cause chaos, confusion, strife and division are removed.
Final Part 3 - Please see below.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 6:30 AM
"If one of his sheep sins against others, can a Senior Pastor say he refuses to be involved and continue to condone the malpractice?"
Posted by Anonymous March 16, 2011 3:35 PM
********************************************************************
PART 2 - LEADERS MUST ISSUE STRONG DISCIPLINE
A Leader is to love the members and care for them. But, this does not mean that he is to put up with their improper conduct, and allow them to continue to stir up strife and problems.
In 2 The 3:14, “And if anyone does not obey our word in this epistle, note that person and DO NOT KEEP COMPANY with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet do not count him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother”.
The Leader must tell the members to separate from these ungodly individuals with the hope that the pain of being ostracized wakes these people up and makes them change their behavior.
If marking them does not work, the Leader may have to remove them from the congregation. Proverbs 22:10 encourages such action, when it is merited: “Cast out the scoffer, and contention will leave; Yes, strife and reproach will cease”.
Another passage which advises removing the ungodly whose presence in the Church is causing strife is Proverbs 26:20: “Where there is no wood, the fire goes out; and where there is no talebearer, strife ceases”.
As these passages say, causing troublemakers to leave will bring conflict to an end. When other members of the congregation know leaders will take strong action, it will also stop them from stirring up strife in the future.
Such a stand does not win friends or make Leaders popular. But, sometimes Leaders have to remove people from the congregation to make sure that the church is what it is supposed to be, a place of blessing, which provides an atmosphere of peace where the love of God can flow.
It is written, My house shall be called a house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves” (Matt 21:13). Once Jesus removed them, healing was restored: “Then, the blind came into the temple, and he healed them” (Matt 21:14). Also, joy was restored, as indicated by the little children singing beautiful songs of praise in the temple (Matt 21:15).
Restoration of peace and joy are what return to a congregation when the scorners and unruly who cause chaos, confusion, strife and division are removed.
Final Part 3 - Please see below.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 6:30 AM
"If one of his sheep sins against others, can a Senior Pastor say he refuses to be involved and continue to condone the malpractice?"
Posted by Anonymous March 16, 2011 3:35 PM
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
PART 3 - LEADERS HAVE A DUTY TO TURN THINGS AROUND
In Matt 18, Jesus took decisive action to turn impending conflict around, to bring it to an unexpected end.
The gospels reveal that Jesus’ disciples were fighting each other over which of them should be accounted the “greatest in the kingdom” (Mk 9:34 & Luke 9:46).
These men, like others who are in conflict, often try to get people who are not involved in the fight to take their side. This is what disciples were trying to when they asked him this question: “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 18:1). They were hoping that Jesus would choose one of them by saying, “Peter is the greatest” or “Thomas is the greatest”.
This would allow the disciple he mentioned to have “superstar status”, bragging rights, and the right to claim himself the victor in the on-going conflict.
While they wanted Jesus to honor them, Jesus had others ideas about this which led him to take action. First he immediately confronted the disciples about the pride and desires in their hearts that caused them to fight with each other:
“Then Jesus called a little child, set him in the midst of them, and said, Assuredly, I say unto you, unless you are converted, and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 18:2-4).
This act of Jesus shifted the focus from these disciples being honored, over to them having to think about and deal with why they were fighting each other.
I am sure that such a shift was shocking to them. Dealing with their disagreement was something that they wanted to avoid, and Jesus was now making them deal with it.
But, Jesus did not stop with this. After dealing with them about their reasons for fighting, he pointed out to them how to solve their problems, by trying to get them to engage in discussions with each other: “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother” (Matt 18:15).
I hope you see how his decisive actions turned things around. These men started off on the offensive, wanting Jesus to take sides in their conflict. But, when Jesus was finished, they were on the defensive, now having to address settling their differences with each other.
Hence, when Leaders are able to do what Jesus did here with these disciples, their actions will stop quarreling congregation members in their tracks, and bring some of the conflicts to an end.
In Matt 27:24-26, we read Pilate took some water and washed his hands before the crowd, This gesture has become symbolic for the human race. “Wash your hands” of the mess.
By washing his hands, Pilate thought that he could wash his guilt and collusion away. He could not. History passed the verdict on Pilate: “Crucified under Pontius Pilate.” Washing hands or not, Pilate was guilty.
In conclusion any leader who fails to resolve strife and misunderstanding within his flock, has failed to be a good shepherd.
If your leader says like Pilate: ‘I am innocent of this man’s blood; see to it yourselves.’ What a pretense.
May the Lord take away his leadership and replace with another who has the true heart of a Good Shepherd.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 6:56 AM
A MOST UNUSUAL PRAYER IN CHURCH
I worship in an AOG church.I am not the spiritual sort.I attend church because my wife drags me along.I hardly read the Bible and prayer is boring for me.I don't think God has the time to listen to me at all.After all,why should the Almighty listen to me?It seems he has enough problems to handle within his church these days.
I am an HR Manager in a big corporation.Last week I heard a most unusual prayer by the church Pastor which awoke me just as I was about to doze off again.Some Elders and Deacons were being ordained and they were all summoned to the altar.So there were these clowns all lined up with sober and holy faces at the altar.
Firstly,they had to read a SERIOUS covenant-sounded something like this."...I will faithfully and diligently support this church with my tithes and offerings AND FREE WILL OFFERINGS and will submit and obey the leadership...will faithfully pray for the leadership..and guard the mystery of the gospel entrusted to me...
Then reading from Bible- "Touch not Gods anointed..."( obvious reference to himself)
NOW HERE IS THE INTERESTING PART
Then the Pastor spoke- Please remember that you "ARE ALL UNDER PROBATION FOR 6 MONTHS...AND ARE REQUIRED TO SUBMIT TO GOD'S LEADERSHIP(meaning himself)...AFTER that if you are found suitable will be CONFIRMED by the Holy Spirit(through him)...also remember that you are Non-Executive voting members and have no voting rights pending confirmation by the Holy Spirit"
If you ask me-I think all this is first class AOG CRAP- WITH A CAPITAL P.The Pastor has obviously been affected by the Calvary Saga.My wife pinched me very hard for giggling.So I hurried to the quietness of the toilet and giggled until my tummy cramped.I had to wipe away my tears using toilet paper.
Later I saw those who had been ordained all walking around with serious and holy looks on their faces.
Although my wife will say "Amen" to anything this man says I personally got absolutely nothing from his usual 3 point sermon.I have got nothing against this man personally- but he looks a bit gay to me.
Since my wife will roast me alive if she finds out I wrote this-I have,after asking Gods protection-chosen to remain anomymous.
SHEEP SHAVEN CLEAN CHURCH-ALL ARE WELCOME.
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 12:20 PM
A MOST UNUSUAL PRAYER IN CHURCH
I worship in an AOG church.I am not the spiritual sort.I attend church because my wife drags me along.I hardly read the Bible and prayer is boring for me.I don't think God has the time to listen to me at all.After all,why should the Almighty listen to me?It seems he has enough problems to handle within his church these days.
I am an HR Manager in a big corporation.Last week I heard a most unusual prayer by the church Pastor which awoke me just as I was about to doze off again.Some Elders and Deacons were being ordained and they were all summoned to the altar.So there were these clowns all lined up with sober and holy faces at the altar.
Firstly,they had to read a SERIOUS covenant-sounded something like this."...I will faithfully and diligently support this church with my tithes and offerings AND FREE WILL OFFERINGS and will submit and obey the leadership...will faithfully pray for the leadership..and guard the mystery of the gospel entrusted to me...
Then reading from Bible- "Touch not Gods anointed..."( obvious reference to himself)
NOW HERE IS THE INTERESTING PART
Then the Pastor spoke- Please remember that you "ARE ALL UNDER PROBATION FOR 6 MONTHS...AND ARE REQUIRED TO SUBMIT TO GOD'S LEADERSHIP(meaning himself)...AFTER that if you are found suitable will be CONFIRMED by the Holy Spirit(through him)...also remember that you are Non-Executive voting members and have no voting rights pending confirmation by the Holy Spirit"
If you ask me-I think all this is first class AOG CRAP- WITH A CAPITAL P.The Pastor has obviously been affected by the Calvary Saga.My wife pinched me very hard for giggling.So I hurried to the quietness of the toilet and giggled until my tummy cramped.I had to wipe away my tears using toilet paper.
Later I saw those who had been ordained all walking around with serious and holy looks on their faces.
Although my wife will say "Amen" to anything this man says I personally got absolutely nothing from his usual 3 point sermon.I have got nothing against this man personally- but he looks a bit gay to me.
Since my wife will roast me alive if she finds out I wrote this-I have,after asking Gods protection-chosen to remain anomymous.
SHEEP SHAVEN CLEAN CHURCH-ALL ARE WELCOME.
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 12:20 PM
Thank you brother Vijay. But for some reason I am not allowed to share more here as CT has not given me permission to share more details.
I appreciate your sharing and relate with everything that you have shared. Think you have the heart thats after the heart of Jesus and do have great insight in the Word.
We are living in the days where many leaders of Churches are cowards and hypocrites. Too many of them causing people to backslide and fall and its such a shame.
Instead of being good shepherds, they have consciously (yes, I am sure they know it) become stumbling blocks.
I wish I could speak to a true shepherd about this matter which truly grieves my spirit..
God bless...
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 5:00 PM
Dear brother Vijay,
To make matters worse, the Church Leader takes the offending party around to testify about God's goodness etc. What a joke. Makes me wanna puke just watching all these hypocrisy unfolding before God and men.
The SP has 'washed his hands' even before mediation. He doesn't want to get involved, he says. In his own words, he says..'dont pit him against me'. Why, just becoz the offending person is a Tan Sri?
I did point out what God says about Mediation per 1:Cor 6 to the SP but what I got back was dead silence.
Maybe the price to lose a rich member from the congregation may be too much for the Church to bear?
God says vengeance is His and we are supposed to forgive.
But it is an insult to see the offending party being such a hypocrite and being allowed by SP and leaders to go around and bragging about God's goodness.
They should stop him lying to the congregation and mocking God. I really cant help but feel that these hypocrites are all serving mammon instead of our Heavenly Father.
Am so discouraged..
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 5:38 PM
bro n sis, pls leave your comments short n simple, tq.
tomorrow another sunday sermon, wonder what to expect...wonder what cc leaders/pastors doing now preparing for another sunday...do they fast n pray...or just finding words of comfort for the members...if one way does not work , find another...
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 10:10 PM
So superintendent of AOG is guilty of avoiding in dealing with the CC saga.
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 11:00 PM
Do you think it is unlikely that Pam starting a furniture business has nothing to do with plundering CC's money?
Remember the book store in church? It is actually belong to PG2. All profit goes to her own account, while she uses the people to "serve" there for free. So she has free workers, free shop without have to pay rental, free announcement or advertisement of books and get profit into her own account. This for many years. Now is Pam's furniture shop coincident? It is of the same spirit of plundering church, maximize opportunity to gain from the church. I am not surprise if Pam don't even have furniture in her shop, but all furniture come from other shops, she just be the middle person so to sell high to the church which has no choice but to "buy" from her. In other words, she buy cheap from other company, and sell high to CC, since it is without tender and a sure business.
Fr CT2 @ March 19, 2011 11:06 PM
CONTACT INFORMATION
As bond servants, we are all called to assist another in distress. However, it may not be appropriate to share some issues in a public blog. Hence, those who are still burdened and at wit's end may e-mail at:
vijay.newdawn@gmail.com.
In Deut 29:29, it says "The secret things belong to the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."
Hence, we should not over burden ourselves with the "secret things" that only the Lord can resolve. Let us cast our burdens unto the Lord and enter His rest.
Otherwise, we enter into areas that are the absolute prerogative of the Lord and sin.
CT Thanks for helping out.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ March 20, 2011 12:21 AM
Thanks CT and brother Vijay..
I will email you in due course..
Appreciate the kindness extended and will seek counsel from true Christian friends and anointed brethren like yourself..
I believe that many good things can come out of this website, in addition to CC being revived and restored in God's perfect will and timing. I believe that God can even use this website to bring souls to Christ.
I believe that through this website, other Church leaders (in KL and elsewhere) will also start to check themselves. I hope that many will learn the importance of accountability, truth and transparency and learn from the wrongdoings of CC leaders and PG. The Holy Spirit should convict them of any wrongdoings, if they are willing to listen and obey.
During this time of turmoil in Libya and seemingly insurmountable problems that Japan faces, let us be reminded that the end may be very near.
I hope that while we can, all of us will be able to promote kindness and justice amongs the brethren and to exhort one another to fear the Lord. We are living in the end times and let us all be serious in our walk and treat each day as if it is our very last.
God is watching us every day and May He bless you all..
Fr CT2 @ March 20, 2011 3:46 PM
In response to the brother who posted this...
"A MOST UNUSUAL PRAYER IN CHURCH
I worship in an AOG church.I am not the spiritual sort.I attend church because my wife drags me along.I hardly read the Bible and prayer is boring for me.I don't think God has the time to listen to me at all.After all,why should the Almighty listen to me?It seems he has enough problems to handle within his church these days.."
I just wanna say that our God is BIGGER than all the problems in this world and He has His reasons to allow the malpractices in the Church to happen for reasons only He knows. Let us be reminded that HE IS KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. If we know all His plans, then we would be at par with God.
Please do not be discouraged by what is happening in the Churches today. All is not lost. There are still true Christians around.
Guess what I really want to say is that we should only focus on our vertical relationship with God and not the horizontal ones with other brethren. Even if other brethren (including false leaders and Pastors etc) do wrong or abuse us, you can still count on Him to hear and answer your prayer, if your prayer is in line with His Word.
So, please do not say that prayer is boring. Talking to God (as if you would an imaginary friend) should not be boring. It can be a lifestyle and not only during prayer sessions. Just talk to Him.
Please do not say that God Almighty has enough problems within the churches and would not have time nor should he listen to you. He is our Maker. He loves each and every one of us and we know we can count on Him to be there for each and every one of us.
Just be wise and do not let others stumble you in your walk with Christ. It is not worth it.
Fr CT2 @ March 20, 2011 4:05 PM
Can somebody tell us?
I am a wife with 3 kids and worship at a small AOG church outside the city.Yesterday,the visiting Pastor said that Jesus cried to Allah from the cross.During Holy Communion,again he said Jesus shed his blood to satisfy Allah's sense of justice and sacrificed himself to Allah... and then Allah raised him up.Is all this true? My family is deeply disturbed by this.We are a low income Chinese family and almost zero Bible knowledge.Can someone out there help us please.My husband is visibly sad and says he will not step into that church again.Is this the latest revelation from God to the church? Can someone help explain?
Distressed
Fr CT2 @ March 21, 2011 1:37 PM
Enlightenment Needed
I am getting annoyed by several AOG churches which I worshipped or visited where their pastors keep emphasizing the requirement to continuously give tithes and offerings, mission pledges and then building fund pledges. I have been giving all of the above for the past 5 years faithfully but at the same time
Can someone on this blog enlighten me whether is it compulsory for Christians to tithe and give pledges? And why are some AOG churches put tithing as part of their constitution?
Regards,
K
Fr CT2 @ March 21, 2011 5:49 PM
Dear Distressed,
If unsure of anything, always refer back to the Bible. Never take the word of a pastor for granted because pastors can also miscommunicate. The pastor obviously uses the name 'Allah' to refer to God. I used to attend AOG church and we don't use 'Allah' at all. We use Yahweh or Jehovah. I suggest you read all 4 gospels of the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I highly recommend The Message which is a contemporary version of the bible and is used widely. You can also read different versions of the bible online for free at http://www.biblegateway.com. Please tell your husband not to be sad. If you're uncomfortable with that church, you can always visit other churches.
Fr CT2 @ March 21, 2011 6:36 PM
Dear Distressed,
If unsure of anything, always refer back to the Bible. Never take the word of a pastor for granted because pastors can also miscommunicate. The pastor obviously uses the name 'Allah' to refer to God. I used to attend AOG church and we don't use 'Allah' at all. We use Yahweh or Jehovah. I suggest you read all 4 gospels of the New Testament - Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I highly recommend The Message which is a contemporary version of the bible and is used widely. You can also read different versions of the bible online for free at http://www.biblegateway.com. Please tell your husband not to be sad. If you're uncomfortable with that church, you can always visit other churches.
Fr CT2 @ March 21, 2011 6:36 PM
Dear Distressed,
The visiting pastor was probably intentionally using the word "Allah" as a Bahasa Malaysia equivalent for God. This could be in response to the on going issue between the Christian community and the authorities that the Bahasa Malaysia word "Allah" could only be used by Muslims in Malaysia and not by Malaysian of other faiths. For example, the Indonesian Bible (Alkitab) became an issue with the authorities because it uses "Allah" for God. Don't be distressed. The visiting pastor was still referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob when he used "Allah", the God of the Bible and not any other god.
Fr CT2 @ March 21, 2011 10:17 PM
Last 2 week, Dr. Joel Edwards preach that Christ is for the church where church herein refer to God’s people, not building. In his sermon, he also mentioned about his friend’s mistake. A friend of his preach about tithing that cause unnecessary guilt to the people, resulting in many grief and cried. The pastor then asked him, “Am I doing ok?” Dr. Joel Edwards answer, “What do you means doing ok? You’ve demolish the church!!”
Christ is for the church, but the pastor who is friend of Dr. Joel Edwards mistakenly preach tithes that implant guilt. He somehow preach Christ is for money.
Last week sermon, PG preaches about tithes and “touch not God’s anointed”. It is probably out of fear that people will realize the irrelevant of the teaching of tithes and thus the money collection of PG will decrease. So PG in his desperate, preach Christ is for your money. How hypocrite!! PG even go to the extent of tithes must be given to the church one attend. His excuse, it is where one is feed. PG failed to realize that he never feed anyone. Ministry in CC virtually has collapse. PG’s sermon on tithes portrays a false teaching not just on the irrelevant of tithes in the NT but also the danger of saying that we have to pay money for the gospel or the gospel is for sale. AOG, this is your ex-superintendent!! A fox!!
He flatter in his sermon describes many OT Bible that is not actually support his point. He thought many of us don’t know the Word of God that he can cheat us.
Friends, firstly Christ is not for your money. PG is.
Secondly, giving to the Lord is not just about giving to churches. In fact, when you give to your needy family member, yeah even a glass of cold water, because of the Christ-like compassion in you, you are actually giving to the Lord.
Thirdly, the church is God’s people, not a local organization or committee of deacon and pastors. Give according to needs, not according to organization. You are part of the global body of Christ. You don’t have to pay membership fee in the body of Christ. Only PG ask for such fees, which he constantly keep track of who give more and who give less; but he never bother on who is in needs nor cares for others.
Fourthly, know where and why you give and how your gift will be used. In the case of CC, money is mostly used on CCC to boast PG’s international glamour image and to fuel his extravagant luxury lifestyle. It is your responsibilities to ensure that your gift intended for God’s kingdom will really used for God’s kingdom. Don’t give to thief and their associates.
Lastly, God bless you because you are His children who delight in Him, not because of your money giving. He is interested in you as a person, not your money. If God could talk to you for just a minute, money issue is definitely not in the agenda. But on the other hand, if PG could talk to you for a decade, he will emphasize wholly on money because he is money minded. PG is going after your money, from day one he became pastor. Money is not just in PG’s agenda, it is PG’s primary motive altogether. The adviser of NECF and ex-superintendent of AOG is also the ambassador of Mammon. All these seen in his fruit.
Fr CT2 @ March 21, 2011 11:36 PM
Just heard over the weekend that CC members prayed for the mediation last friday at the prayer meeting.
Then PG or someone went up and announced that it was the TTG who did not want to mediate. So now he tell the members that PG is the good guy who wants to meet but the TTG refused all this while. Thank God that CT has informed us of all the happenings and we now know that even NECF cannot get PG to have a meeting with the TTG and not the other way around as claimed by PG.
Then I was also told that PG said that the church will have to pay for the legal fees of Zul Rafique because the deacons work for free and volunteer to serve the church. He is the senior pastor of the church so the church must pay the legal fees.
Some of us were discussing this. If what Is heard is true and PG is really planning the church to pay the legal fees then the members must ask for clarification from them during AGM.
Calvary Church is so big, PG cannot find a church member to represent them? Is there no lawyers among the church members? Should the church not consider giving a church member the fees and after all, this member will pay tithes from the fees he collect from CC? If the deacon can volunteer their time to serve the church for free, is there no church member lawyer who will represent the deacons and PG for free also? Think about it!
If PG does use church money to pay the legal fees, then can we make a police report for misuse of funds?
With the police report can we go to the local newspaper with it? Will they publish a story like this?
Some of us were talking about this and we are wondering if this can be done.
Need some expert advice.
Fr CT2 @ March 23, 2011 7:58 AM
Last Sunday's CC sermon from SP was again about tithing and once again put guilt into us by saying that we robbed God (from the famous Malachi book). Well SP, well all know that we must tithe and we should pay our tithes to the storehouse where we receive our spiritual food.
There's not much spiritual food that we can get from CC anyways... that's why we take effort to go to other churches' services too on the same Sunday and pay our tithes there.
Furthermore, SP is probably not aware that a lot of members, including myself pay our tithes elsewhere but still stay in Calvary because we love Calvary church, Christ's church, not SP's church because we are here, prompted by the Holy spirit to see God's victory over His church, by getting other members know the truth. If SP and its leaders wants to hide the truth, its up to them. We are CALLED to speak the truth, as the truth shall set us FREE.
That's why we are not keeping quiet SP, because we will not be FREE if we withhold the truth!
SP also said that God will deal with His anointed severely and does SP not know that this is already happening. He must have forgotten what he preached as he always say that faith without work/action is dead. The work of God can be done through work of men who have faith in Him.
He must also have forgotten that God sent prophets to Kings to remind and advice the Kings. Even the Kings are humbled... but not you SP.
Yes pastor, we are the faithful people and servants of God, and not men. So, SP, we are doing God's work, led by the spirit though His words in the bible, not YOUR words. And you must be feeling that you are already being dealt with severely.
Can't you see it SP?
To God alone be all glory.
Hang on there real people of God's Calvary Church. It's tough going to few churches on one Sunday, but if that can bring Jesus's Calvary church to become a lighthouse again, I think it is small sacrifice.
The question about paying tithes.... YOU MUST... no doubt about it. And like what our SP said... pay it to the storehouse that feeds you spiritual food. For me at this moment, the storehouse is not at Calvary church.
I got to know one very senior member recently though some mission who is very close to SP and leaders of the CC church once got so angry because a lie has been made on the pulpit and that the pulpit has been defiled. There is no spiritual anointing when pastors preach at the pulpit anymore. God only stands on Holy Ground. So, how can we receive spiritual food from CC?
Furthermore, CC's storehouse has been desecrated by all this happenings. The fact is that once a lie is made (even a small lie) it is already a sin... and until today, forgivess of this sin is not asked. What lie is that? Then you probably have not read all the postings on Calvary today.
SP asked the congregation for forgiveness once, and is not because of the accounts and whatnot...he ask for forgiveness for being a quiet/introvert person, and truly we forgave him.
Once CC storehouse is restored and a forgiveness is being asked from God, and that the storehouse is blessed, I will pay my tithes at CC storehouse again.
Wow... my thoughts are unusually long today...because really, I cannot tahan SP's "sermons" anymore, thinking that we, the congregation are idiots, who do not know the Word of God.
Fr CT2 @ March 23, 2011 12:28 PM
(1) Let him use Church funds to pay for the legal fees of Zul Rafique! Let PGs commit a criminal offence first, then only make a Police report, Ok.
(2) PGs might get CC AGM or EGM to approve in writings and engaging and " paying for the legal fees of Zul Rafique " in days to come? To cover up the Offence so committed later ?
(3) Now we should know why KK Wong was DROPPED OFF Mid- way for NON- Compliance to PGs instructions !
Fr CT2 @ March 23, 2011 12:45 PM
Response to
Winds of Change.
I think,like many others you have matured.Sit tight and don't move.Pastors may talk tough and spiritual but the bottom line is this-they don't own the church property or money.This man will never stop taking about $$$.He is incurable.When the $$$ stopped coming in- Pam bolted first.Finally exposed.Curtains coming down on the whole leadership.A Japanese would have committed harakiri by now.Shameful is the word.
Fr CT2 @ March 23, 2011 2:28 PM
I noticed the Response to Winds of Change he/she said"...When the $$$ stopped coming in- Pam bolted first." Some years ago,SP made a comment about Pam's ministry saying " Its a joy to serve as a family" What happened to that joy?You mean- no $$$ and joy disappears???What happened to her calling to serve?? When they TOTT - she appears to have a different calling. This Calvary Crisis is exposing many things for the greater good. Maybe God will use this journey to purify the leadership of AOG and to wipe out all the AOG hirelings in our midst who hide behind various so called Rev titles.Especially those good talkers and their religious rhetoric.I have a feeling that many AOG pastors are closely following this blog in their favourite secret place.To those of you Pastors who are spritually abusive, sly & deceptive- I say with all my heart" Good riddance to all of you!!!"
Fr CT2 @ March 23, 2011 4:57 PM
This is with reference to the Comment by Anonymous @ March 23, 2011 4:57 PM which ended with "Good riddance to all of you!!!". This is what CT administrators would define as harsh.
We do appreciate your Comments which are helpful to us all to piece together information that helps us to be wiser and to be better Christians. In order to be a blog that will exhort and challenge one another to walk wisely and closely to God, we have to be careful with the language we use, so that we will not offend or hurt the feelings of others readers.
So we place this gentle reminder to our readers who have taken the time and effort to blog your Comments here.
- Please do not make Comments that are NOT TRUE
- Please do not use HARSH LANGUAGE to describe anyone
- Please do not use any VICIOUS STATEMENTS on anyone.
On another note, we wish to call upon all Calvarites and Ex-Calvarites and friends to pray for tomorrow, 24 March 2011 (Thursday) whereby the Court Mediation is set to take place, to go on smoothly and that there will be a resolution to end this Saga amicably by both parties.
God bless
IN RESPONSE TO CALVARY TODAY
Please accept my sincere apologies for using he word "good riddance to all of you".I accept correction in my Christian life.
On a personal note- I have been benefitted much from this blog.Thank you very much.
Torn apart by church leaders.
Fr CT2 @ March 23, 2011 8:02 PM
PG says he does not read CT and has ordered church workers including assoc. pastors and leaders not to read the blog. I do not buy this. Even if PG does not personally go into the blog, he will probably has others who read it and either print the comments for him or brief him on it.
The topic of tithing and give to a storehouse where one attends was brought up in the blog some time ago and the topic "Touch not God's anointed" was one of the earliest in Berita Calvary. Why did he all of a sudden spoke on tithing on two Sundays and last Sunday on Touch Not God's anointed. He is getting jittery and working on defense mechanism. No doubt the pressure is mounting on him.
Respect him for his oratory skills and denial syndrome. From the pulpit, he can paint black into white. All those who are following this saga and read the Star will now see him as a liar because with the efforts of mediation by a few parties, he can look you in the eyes and pretend as though his door is always open. He makes a great poker player and actor.
Did he say that "if I am not a pastor, I'll be a successful businessman" I am a "golden eagle" and most of us in this age group would remember the soap opera Dallas and PG will put J.R. Ewing to shame wheeling and dealing not only in money but also in running the church.
Fr CT2 @ March 23, 2011 11:25 PM
(1) I noticed PG was never at Peace with himself ever since TTG came into the picture. An "irritated secular man" will always behave irrationally, like removing KK Wong mid-way & ignoring proper legal counsel.
(2) Let's FAST and PRAY for 24th March 2011 (Thursday) whereby the Court Mediation is set to take place, to go on smoothly and that there will be a resolution to end this Saga amicably by both parties.
(3) Always remember that we are worshiping the LIVING GOD and He answer PRAYERS of the humble !
Fr CT2 @ March 24, 2011 3:08 AM
(1) In Law, when PG committed "alleged CBT & etc " and then went back to BOD & Elders via numerous fast-track "rectification & endorsed MEETINGS" to rectify his "alleged Actus Rea offences & allegeed misgivings ", DOES it REALLY make PG CLEAN in the SECULAR World & in GOD Spiritual REALM ?
(2)In LAW , I no longer address PG as SP anymore as PG was himself enstopped by the CC CHURCH Handbook since 2006.
(3) By Precedence Pastor Timothy should be Acting SP by now ! The petition to resinstate 400 ex Calvarites should be addressed to Acting SP Pastor Timothy!
(4)SINS beget more SINS through SELF JUSTIFICATIONS via fast-track Endorsed Meetings ! It is CHASING After the WIND !
Fr CT2 @ March 24, 2011 9:14 AM
Anonymous mar. 24, 9:14am.
How old is Ps Timothy now? Most probably he is above 55. Hence according to the Staff handbook, he should also have retired. However as usual, the CC always keep mum on such matters where it is of interest to the members. CC will only announce the barest minimum and pull over your eyes, spilling half-truths along the way.
Anyway, I agree with you that PG by law, is also retired according to the Staff Handbook. However he's acting like Hitler. Who gave him the authority to amend the terms in the Handbook without the approval from members. He has the skin of a buffalo and behaves like he's head of the mafia. Technically, he is now an outsider and squatting in the Church.
Fr CT2 @ March 24, 2011 2:13 PM
Without doubt- Timothy is above 55 like all the rest.The reason they may be staying back may not only be financial-but much deeper. They are hoping to clear their names and credibility and they probably believe that when CCC is completed- they will be vindicated.After all our Book says that Noah had to face much ridicule and opposition when building the Ark was in progress.In fact one Pastor told me that when CCC is completed all those who left will return- because the facilities available at CCC will be irresistible to those who left.
But you have to give CC leadership credit for one thing. They are still able to hang around with innocent faces and still continue to preach and "serve".To me that is a most amazing thing AND DISGRACEFUL.In our country when a politician is accused of CBT they are immediately required to vacate office pending investigations- they can only return after their name has been cleared.Another reason they stay around with their comedy is that they know that sheep are dumb-sheep are not aware even when they are being led to the slaughter. I just ran out of words.TOTT is working and the cracks are appearing.Keep up the spritual defences- the light will dispel the darkness in Gods house.The present Pentecostal Circus cannot go on forever.SP- for the sake of Gods house- restore the 400 Christians to Gods house. Take up the phone and call Dr. Lum.Its no loss of face. If you are indeed a man of God and principles- YOU initiate the reconciliation and the healing process will begin. Dont wait for others to come to you- COME DOWN FROM YOUR PEDESTAL-GO TO THEM- YOU ARE A SHEPHARD IN GODS HOUSE??!IF YOU DONT DO THIS and the church finally removes you- YOU WILL BE REMEMBERED AS A PATHETIC EXAMPLE TO ALL AOG MINISTERS & CHURCH GOERS.
A TIME TO BE SILENT AND A TIME TO TALK.
Fr CT2 @ March 24, 2011 4:35 PM
Dear CT,
How did the Mediation meeting go today??
Just wondering..
Fr CT2 @ March 24, 2011 6:28 PM
Regarding the Mediation meeting.
Our representatives are trying to get word from the Plaintiffs and the class action group and we are still waiting for news from them.
We will keep you all posted as soon as we receive news from them.
God bless.
In my observation of how ps Timothy carries out his responsibilities and also the way he handles things, he cannot make the grade of senior pastor in CC. His problem solving ability is also in doubt and has a tendency to just let problems solve itself.
Fr CT2 @ March 24, 2011 6:49 PM
Its already after 3pm-Good Friday, and Jesus breathes His last -and the darknes is settling on the land.To the soldiers and the bystanders- it looked like the end-pitiful death.....But in Gods design - it was just the beginning.
May God Bless you all out there. WE may all be caught up in different situations in life- with our own unique problems-but God has dealt with all this before.May you and family be abundantly blessed & protected.
The race may be tough & weary down here- but I believe its worth it.Once again- may all of you out there be Abundantly Blessed.
Fr CT2 @ April 22, 2011 3:46 PM
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