Issue 12 : BOD Minutes of Meetings & Missions Dept Minutes
Concerns Raised
a) The current practice in CC allows for tampering and is a ‘civil offence’.
b) SP has tampered with the minutes.
c) These minutes are deliberately made to appear unanimous as objections and abstentions are not recorded.
Opinions Formed
a) Main CC accounts & Missions accounts data are shredded immediately after each BOD meeting.
b) All minutes are removed after the BOD/MC meeting, locked up and then shredded after a year.
c) Deacons have no access to these minutes.
d) Abstentions & objections are deliberately not recorded in the minutes as per the Robert’s rules.
e) Deacon Bernadette informed the BOD that the minutes written by her were altered without her knowledge.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) Confidential handouts (bearing in mind the sometimes sensitive nature of church/gospel work) are collected and shredded so that no confidential docs are left lying around and all Deacons are aware of this.
b) Handouts which are not confidential in nature are not shredded.
c) The Deacons themselves shred (a) and Dr Lum himself has done so many times.
d) The Deacons’ personal notes made on separate books are taken back by them.
e) Each Deacon’s minutes are destroyed after a year.
f) The official copy signed off by the Secretary is kept in the Church office. The Deacon can access these any time.
g) The initialing of every page including attachments of the official minutes by the Secretary were undertaken some years ago.
h) Bernadette denies Dr Lum’s allegation about minutes being altered without her knowledge and the current Deacons do not recall her having made such an allegation.
i) Lawrence Mak’s statement April 2009.
“Minutes of the previous meeting are always (sic) out to the deacons prior to the next meeting with ample time for review. Each deacon will review the minutes prior to the next meeting and during the meeting correction, if any, will be agreed by consensus of the BOD before being minuted by the secretary. I hope this will clear the air about the process and integrity of the BOD meeting minutes.”
j) Unanimous Decisions.
1) Issues are fully debated if there are any differing opinions.
2) Decisions made by the BOD are on a consensus basis.
3) Most decisions require either a simple or a two-thirds majority of the Deacons present.
4) Unanimity is only required for one specific item concerning membership.
k) Missions Minutes.
1) A copy of the past Missions Minutes are given to each Committee member at least 1 week before the next meeting.
2) These Minutes are viewed and confirmed at the next meeting.
3) These Minutes are verified and signed by the Missions Director and Missions Secretary.
4) The official minutes are kept in the Missions Department office and the Missions Director and committee members have access to these at any time.
5) Each MC member has their respective file copy which is kept in the Missions Department office and shredded after 1 year.
CT Comments
We reiterate below what Dr Lum actually said followed by our remarks in italics:
a) Dr Lum: Board minutes are taken back after each meeting and none of the deacons are allowed to keep the minutes. The BOD confirms this fact.
b) Dr Lum: The minutes are locked up by the church and destroyed (shredded) after one year. The BOD confirms this fact.
c) Dr Lum: Deacons have no access to their own copy of the minutes after one year. True because it had been destroyed after one year.
d) Dr Lum: The Secretary mentioned at one instance that the minutes appeared to have been altered and SP admitted that he had altered it. The Secretary denies this allegation so it is Dr Lum’s word against her word. SP has kept silent.
e) Dr Lum: The deacons can express their opinions but SP’s views generally supercedes those of the deacons. The BOD did not confirm if this statement about SP is true or false. They side-step the issue by repeating what Dr Lum said, which is that they are free to express their opinions.
f) Dr Lum: Abstentions and objections to certain proposals are not recorded so it appears that the board decisions are unanimous. The BOD did not clarify if this allegation is true or false. But they made seemingly contradictory statements. They said “Decisions made by the BOD are on a consensus basis.” And in the same breath, they said “Most decisions require either a simple or a two-thirds majority of the Deacons present.”
Issue 12a : Senior Pastor’s views supersede the BOD’s – Issue regarding Freemason.
Concern Raised
a) SP’s views generally supersede those of the BOD.
Opinions Formed
a) Therefore the Deacons usually keep silent during BOD meeting.
b) When Dr Lum queried about the CCC Architect being a Freemason and distribute material thereto, SP was furious and none of the then Deacons except Lawrence Mak spoke up.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) The BOD has total freedom to express their views in the BOD meetings.
b) Decisions in the BOD are made based on the consensus of the Deacons present.
c) An agenda for the BOD meeting is distributed at least 1 week ahead of time to enable the Deacons to prepare.
d) Deacons can add items to the agenda by giving prior notice.
e) Deacons are NOT allowed to introduce new items on the day of the meeting itself as it would be disruptive and unfair to the rest at the meeting.
f) Dr Lum raised a new item at the meeting and distributed material in relation to the topic.
g) The Chairman of the BOD reminded Dr Lum of the order of BOD meetings.
h) All Deacons’ ideas are taken into consideration and discussed at the BOD meeting.
Sometimes the final decision made on these ideas bear no resemblance at all to the original idea put forward as it has been modified, re-shaped etc until it becomes one that the BOD feels is the best one to adopt for Calvary Church.
CT Comments
As mentioned earlier, Dr Lum had said that the deacons can express their opinions but SP’s views generally supercedes those of the deacons. The BOD again did not confirm if this allegation about SP is true or false but they reiterated that decisions made by the BOD are on a consensus basis. They went on to explain that Dr Lum’s raising of the Ken Yeang freemason issue vis-à-vis the Calvary Convention Centre (CCC) at a Board Meeting was rejected because it was not on the Agenda and no prior notice was given by Dr Lum to discuss the matter. This sounds similar to the BOD’s constant rejection of concerned members’ Proposed Resolutions put forward for the last 2 EGMs (despite sufficient prior notice given). Todate, there also has been no response on the 7 Resolutions submitted by concerned members for the forthcoming AGM on 19 June.
Issue 13 : Alliance Bank Loan for CCC
Concern Raised
The legality of the BOD’s decision to take the loan.
Opinions Formed
CC’s members must approve of the loan since CC’s assets legally belong to the members.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) In the AGM held on 21 March 2003, the membership gave its approval to ratify the amendment to Article IV (4) of the By-Laws to read as follows:
‘purchase of any immovable property requires the specific approval (a simple majority vote) of the members at a General Meeting. The Board of Deacons may borrow money to finance the purchase or development of immovable property of the Church on such terms as it deems expedient. The Board of Deacons may also lease-out or mortgage any immovable property if the Church as it deems expedient’.
b) The purchase of the land for CC was presented to the church members for approval at an EGM on 24 January 2003.
c) A RM10 million term loan was obtained from Alliance Bank to part finance the purchase of the land. In the loan agreement, Alliance Bank asked for a first right of refusal for any future financing that may be required for the construction phase.
d) As there was an anticipated shortfall in the finances for the construction, an application to Alliance Bank was made for a bridging finance for the construction of the CCC.
e) Alliance Bank approved a bridging finance of RM35 million. This will be in 2 tranches comprising of a term loan and an overdraft.
f) The BOD had ensured that CC has the cashflow to sustain paying the instalments for the RM35 million loan.
CT Comments
There is no doubt that the BOD is empowered to borrow money to fund the construction of the CCC. Dr Lum did not say that it was illegal to borrow. His contention was that since all church assets belong to the members, the BOD must not act independently on the decision to take the loan from the bank as the decision is crucial and has legal implications. His opinion is that the BOD should seek the approval of the congregation for the loan.
We are unable to confirm but it is believed that the RM35 million loan from the bank is secured by the CCC land as well as certain properties in DH where our main church is located. If this is true, then there is a real risk that if the church is unable to service the loan, the bank can and will foreclose on our DH properties to recover their money. This will be the easiest route for the bank as attempting to sell the CCC will not be easy or impossible, if it is uncompleted. If such an event occurs, we could lose everything. Every Calvarite should be concerned about this. With the dwindling number of worshippers and inadvertently, the amount of offerings, the Church will be hard pressed to service the loan.
Another matter to think about is that the RM35 million loan plus our existing cash in hand is insufficient to complete the building of CCC which means that we may end up with an abandoned project and a host of legal suits.
Issue 14 : Rule XIV (Interpretation of Rules and By-Laws) of Calvary Church Constitution
Concerns Raised
a) That the powers vested in the BOD are absolute.
b) What was the original intention of SP and BOD in having this provision?
Opinions Formed
a) Rule XIV of CC’s Constitution must be revoked with immediate effect because it excludes the members from ‘Church Governance’ and this is suspect and theologically imbalanced.
b) Any rule that fails to incorporate the BODY OF CHRST (the CHURCH MEMBERS) in the decisions of the Church is suspect and NOT OF GOD. Theologically, the BODY OF CHRIST MINISTRY is of utmost significance.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) The CC Constitution is in the AOG format and therefore is not unique to only CC.
b) The CC Constitution has been in existence for so many years. It would not be right to demand for any Rule for that matter to be unilaterally revoked without a proper due diligence been carried out.
c) Dr Lum has only brought up this issue in his resignation letter and never at any of the BOD meetings.
CT Comments
The BOD’s justification that our Constitution is in line with AG’s format and has been in existence for many years is just a lame excuse. We need to change with the times and if there are any parts of the Constitution which is autocratic or no longer relevant, it ought to be brought to the members at a general meeting to be amended. This particular section has been used by the BOD to arbitrary reject the Resolutions submitted by concerned members for the last 2 EGMs. In both instances, it was a clear abuse of power by the BOD using this section. This Rule XIV must be revoked or at least amended to prevent abuse by the BOD.
Issue 15 : Nomination Committee (NC)
Concerns Raised
a) That the nomination process is not independent.
b) SP often interferes with the nomination process.
c) SP imposes his choice upon the Nomination Committee members.
d) The propriety of Edward Rajasingam’s appointment as Deacon.
Opinions Formed
a) SP often interferes with the nomination process.
b) SP imposes his choices upon the NC members but makes it look like the NC made their own choices.
c) The propriety of current deacon, Edward Rajasingam’s and past deacon Katherine Lee’s nomination.
d) Edward ought to therefore resign.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) The existing nomination process is stringent and has many safeguards – refer to Flow Chart for the steps.
b) SP himself is bound by these safeguards and adheres to the same.
c) The nomination documents on Edward and Katherine show Dr Lum’s concerns to be baseless.
CT Comments
The BOD’s presentation of the nomination process and the flow chart does not negate the fact that SP as the chairman has a strong influence on the short-listing of candidates for deaconship.
Many who have served on the nomination committee can vouch that SP arbitrarily disqualifies some of the nominees based on his “personal” knowledge of those nominees. He will say things like “This person has personal problems (or similar remarks) so he is not suitable”. He does not provide any evidence or any basis for his “personal” knowledge.
We do not have any knowledge about Katherine’s nomination or “non-nomination” but we understand that Edward was initially not nominated by any of the nomination committee members before he first became a deacon. His name was suggested by SP and out of respect or courtesy, the committee then accepted Edward as a candidate. Of course, it naturally follows that the committee members’ signatures of endorsement of Edward will then be on the nomination forms. Bro Hong Meng, who sat on the nomination committee for that particular year, will be able to testify to that. If you have read the comments in earlier blogs, you would have also read testimonies of those who have served on the nomination committees and witnessed the interference of SP in the nomination process.
Issue 16 : Appointment of Sr. Pastor
Concern Raised
a) Is Prince Guneratnam’s position as SP of CC valid?
b) Has Rule XI of the CC been contravened?
Opinions Formed
a) Rule XI of the CC has been contravened since there has been no ratification of his re-appointment.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) Prince Guneratnam was appointed as SP of CC in 1972, even before the Constitution was drawn up.
b) The position of the SP can only fall vacant in specific circumstances (refer to Rule XI (1).
c) The removal of the SP under the CC is strictly governed by the provisions of the Constitution.
- Resignation
- Not re-elected by members if presented for re-election at the request of the BOD.
- Removal or disqualification.
d) As the staff grew, a handbook was necessary c.1992.
e) The retirement age of 60 applies to Pastors meaning associate Pastors.
f) SP does not automatically retire at 60, as evinced by a BOD resolution of 2/10/04 clarifying that the CC’s staff handbook does not apply to the positions of Senior Pastor and Sister Petrina.
CT Comments
The BOD is right that under the Constitution which was established during SP’s tenure, that unless SP resigns or dies, he can only be removed or disqualified under certain circumstances and with a two-thirds majority vote of the Voting members present at a General Meeting convened for that purpose. SP has made it such that it is virtually impossible to remove him. This is the biggest flaw in our Constitution and this needs to be reviewed.
The BOD further clarified that the retirement age of 60 stated in the Staff Handbook does not apply to SP and his wife (apparently as evinced by a BOD resolution in 2004) but applies only to Pastors meaning associate Pastors. There is nowhere in the Handbook that says ‘Pastors’ mean ‘associate Pastors’.
In Section 2: Staff Classification, it is clear that Senior Pastor is the head (and obviously part) of the pastoral and ministerial team which comprises Senior Associate Pastors, Associate Pastors, Assistant Pastors and Ministerial Staff.
In Section 18: Sabbatical Leave, it is clearly stated that Senior Pastor is entitled to 9 months Sabbatical leave for every 6 years of service. Why would the Staff Handbook specify benefits for the Senior Pastor if he is not governed by the Handbook?
How can the BOD argue that SP and his wife are not subject to the Staff Handbook but at the same time, they enjoy the benefits provided therein like Sabbatical leave, annual leave, 13th month stipend etc?
On another note, we cannot accept that SP and his wife who are both past the retirement age of 60, can still insist on staying on and earn the same remuneration (perhaps more?) when they require another long serving church ministerial staff, who wanted to work past her retirement age, to accept a much reduced salary as a condition to continue working. Thankfully, that staff was smart enough to leave and today, she is happily working for another Christian organization.
Issue 17 : Sr. Pastor’s Retirement
Concern Raised
The welfare of the CC congregation.
Opinions Formed
a) SP & BOD must resign en bloc.
b) The CC leadership is responsible for the state that CC is in now.
Church Perspective (BOD’s Perspective)
a) The BOD’s position is that SP did not take any money from the Church that should compel him to return the same and this evidenced by the various independent reports – lawyer, forensic accountant and the internal auditors.
b) The Associate & Assistants Pastors as well as the entire BOD unwaveringly stand by SP.
c) It is the members’ right to vote the BOD and not an individual’s call for the entire BOD to resign.
CT Comments
We cannot comment and do not know if SP took any money from the Church but it has been proven that SP had caused or allowed RM1.9 million to be transferred from the Church Missions Fund to his personal ministry, CIM between 2002 and 2007 without the knowledge of the members. After much pressure from the concerned members and closure of CIM’s bank account following its de-registration by NECF, SP was ‘compelled’ to return the balance RM1.1 million back to Church.
On the call by Dr Lum for the BOD to resign, the BOD must accept that it is not just an individual’s call for the entire BOD to resign. It is the call of many members for the entire BOD to resign.
CT's Concluding Statement.
Looks like we have a God who still sits on the throne above every single person and is above every situation. While the pastors & BOD are now busy meeting with members in small groups behind closed doors, our God Almighty declares His Sovereignty over ALL right out in the open for all to see and be amazed and encouraged. While the pastors & BOD are spending so much time speaking for so many hours almost nightly, trying to justify the actions of the one man they so pledge to be loyal to, our Everlasting God effortlessly, paints a single Rainbow across the sky, to declare His magnificence and power over all.
We thank God for this testimony we received which we now include here as the Conclusion to the 3 part report of the special small group meetings which the church leadership has and is still planning to conduct till the coming AGM.
Karen’s Testimony
In the midst of all these confusion, with no one really having the true picture of what is happening in Calvary Church, the Church members are seemingly plunged into a deep valley. What more with members being called up for these “small group meetings” to listen and are expected to absorb all the explanations in 3 hours and walk out with their doubts all cleared up.
The TTG brothers and sisters met last night (Tuesday) for a time of discussion on the next course of action and to pray for God’s leading and direction. For once, the group was faced with confusion. We were confused not because we have mixed up facts but were confused because we cannot understand the minds of our BOD. On one hand, they quote the Church Constitution to support their actions yet on the other hand, they seem to be blatantly ignoring the Members’ Constitutional rights. I believe CT will elaborate more on this later.
We left last night’s meeting with a heavy heart and we were encouraged to seek the Lord ourselves for specific directions as to the next course of action for the coming AGM. We have done what we possibly can do as a group and we have tried to initiate meetings with the BOD for an amicable closure to this whole saga but we have not made any head-way with our Church leadership. So the question we have in mind now is, “What else can we do?”
Our God is really GOOD. When we do not know what to do, we go home, have a good night’s sleep and wait for God to show the way. I did not expect an answer so soon from God. There’s a saying, “A picture speaks a thousand words” and once again, our God painted His answer in a beautiful rainbow in the sky.
When we are caught in a “valley” situation, God sends a rainbow to remind us that HIS PROMISES are there in the “valley” for us.
This morning (Wed) while driving my children to school, I had the privilege of seeing the rainbow from the NKVE Toll gate right to the Klang / Ipoh split road. My personal interpretation of this is that God is telling us, He was with us from the start and He will guide us and show us the way, even when we come to a junction and are faced with a decision to turn left or turn right. In times like this, we need to be still and know that He is God and follow His Word – The Bible which contains all His Promises.
May you after reading this be blessed and encouraged by God and then move on to stand on His Promises.
Latest testimony added on 30 May 2009.
A sister while driving home after work was pondering over the rainbow photos and the Lord impressed on her to read the following Bible verses. She shared that God reminded her not to look for answers from "the left or right," which will lead us somewhere but may not be where God want us to be. Instead we are to look to the rainbow which is representative of God's promises, which will lead us to where God wants us to be. She shared this with us and after reading her testimony, we were very blessed by it and we hope that you too will be blessed and encouraged by the following Bible verses. (Read her e-mail to us in the Comments below posted by Calvary Today @ May 30, 2009 9:19 AM, the 47th Comment)
Proverbs 4:20-27 (The Message)
"Dear friend, listen well to my words; tune your ears to my voice. Keep my message in plain view at all times. Concentrate! Learn it by heart! Those who discover these words live, really live; body and soul, they're bursting with health.
Keep vigilant watch over your heart; that's where life starts. Don't talk out of both sides of your mouth; avoid careless banter, white lies, and gossip. Keep your eyes straight ahead; ignore all sideshow distractions. Watch your step, and the road will stretch out smooth before you.
Look neither right nor left; leave evil in the dust."
Deuteronomy 5:32-33 (NIV)
“So be careful to do what the LORD your God has commanded you; do not turn aside to the right or to the left. Walk in all the way that the LORD your God has commanded you, so that you may live and prosper and prolong your days in the land that you will possess.”
Joshua 1:7 (NIV)
“Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go.”
48 comments:
PG & BOD & ASSOC PASTORS: DON’T THEY GET IT?
From the developments since the AGM in March 2008, The long drawn saga-- the CRISIS in Calvary Church, will persist, given that those responsible
in pastoral, deaconship positions, chief among them PG , will never hold themselves accountable.
In spite of all that concerned members of Truth Transparency & Good Governance did to expose the MORAL, LEGAL and SPIRITUAL abuses
of those in Power—*PG & BOD, the many comments and exchanges by all who
have taken an interest in it, showed those who still doggedly ‘defend’ *their ways missed the CAUSE of TTG, and What is truly at Sake: THE KINGDOM of GOD.
Please read the Following NEWS item. I pray, no one will have any more second thoughts, why it is untenable for the PG & BOD to remain in Office and that REFORM is absolutely needed in CC.
(FYI Gordon Brown had acted to set up an Independent Council to review this Crisis, so as to leave no stone unturned. –Just as A TRUTH Commission ought to be established in CC’s case)
The Following has been extracted from:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/05/19/uk.mps.expenses.oakley/index.html *
COMMENT: UK SPEAKER'S RESIGNATION FIRST STEP TO CLEAN STABLES
By Robin Oakley, CNN Political Contributor
LONDON, England (CNN) -- Michael Martin, forced to resign as Speaker of the British parliament, has become the highest profile victim of the Expenses Scandal which has dominated public life in Britain now for nearly two weeks.
Michael Martin, has faced calls from lawmakers step down as Speaker.
Michael Martin has resigned after MPs called for his head following the expenses scandal.
Martin has suffered because as Speaker he not only chaired debates in the Commons chamber but was in effect parliament's Chief Executive. In that role he was responsible for the Fees Office.
The poor policing by that office of the expenses system has led to public outrage, with MPs claiming interest payments on mortgages they had paid off, husband and wife teams claiming for separate second homes and many MPs lavishly outfitting their second homes under the additional costs allowance to the tune of up to $36,000 a year -- in some cases before selling them at a handsome profit.
Speaker Martin has been forced out also because he was, in the words of Liberal Democrat Leader Nick Clegg, "A DOGGED DEFENDER Of The STATUS QUO," resistant to reform. His attempts to keep the details of MPs expenses from the public's gaze, contesting the provisions of Freedom of Information legislation, also made him a target for the media.
Video Watch more on voters' anger »
There had been questions too about his wife's $6,000 bill for taxis used on shopping trips.
Video Watch how the rules have led to abuse »
Martin's fate was sealed by an abject performance in the House of Commons Monday when a number of MPs sought a debate on a motion of NO CONFIDENCE in the Speaker and told him to his face that HE MUST GO.
A fumbling, badly-read apology from the Speaker to the British public was not enough. It was clear, in the words of one MPs, that "he simply didn't get it." A hint that he would stand down at the general election due next year might have saved him. Instead he HID BEHIND procedural niceties and said that it was not appropriate to debate his future.
What do you think about the expense scandal?
As MPs called angrily for his head and he sought guidance from officials, it was clear that he had lost the confidence of the Commons and had to go.
CONT>>>
CONT:
PG & BOD & ASSOC PASTORS: DON’T THEY GET IT?
The Following has been extracted from:
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/05/19/uk.mps.expenses.oakley/index.html *
COMMENT: UK SPEAKER'S RESIGNATION FIRST STEP TO CLEAN STABLES
Already the expenses row has FORCED the RESIGNATION of a Labour Justice Minister, Shahid Malik, over housing claims, and two Labour lawmakers have been suspended from party membership.
The Conservative Opposition leader David Cameron was forced to order eight members of his Shadow Cabinet to get out their check books and PAY BACK the taxpayer for excessive expenses claims. He also suffered the resignation of a top aide, Andrew Mackay, after he admitted he and his wife Julie Kirkbride, also a Conservative member, had for nine years claimed second home allowances on two separate premises.
So does the continuing expenses furor, fueled by a flood of detailed reports in the Daily Telegraph, which obtained details of the correspondence between MPs and the Fees Office over their claims, mean that Britain now has a CORRUPT political establishment and that the 'MOTHER of Parliaments,' as it was once proudly termed, should now be COMPARED with the legislators of tin pot DICTATORSHIPS across the globe? We are not there yet. (comment added : not unlike CC's prideful claim "Fountain head Church?)
What has happened is that British MPs and governments, fearful of facing the likely public outcry if they sought bigger salaries to compete with figures in industry, built themselves a lucrative and poorly supervised system of expenses which allowed them to top up their salaries by other means.
Not all MPs did it, but for many an 'expenses culture' grew, seemingly encouraged by officials. The claims made by most MPs, even for excavating moats at grand country homes, repairing swimming pools and trimming hedges around helipads, WERE TECHNICALLY WITHIN THE RULES BUT A MILLION MILES AWAY FROM THE SPIRIT IN WHICH THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN INTERPRETED.
No one with experience of the United Nations or the European Parliament would be unfamiliar with the kind of enterprises which developed. But in Britain they have been exposed to public gaze at a time when others are suffering the ravages of recession and the anger is intense.
The whole political class is currently being held in disrepute, and fringe parties are likely to benefit at the expenses of the mainstream in forthcoming elections.
The stables have to be cleaned, and the dumping of an unpopular and clumsy Speaker is the first step in that. Now the parties are conducting their own inquiries and insisting that MPs found to have BEHAVED DISHONESTLY will NOT be allowed to stand again.
Reforms are now being frantically sought. They are likely to include a "cap" on mortgage payments, a ban on the practice of "flipping" (naming different properties in turn as the second home in order to claim allowances on them) and an independent body to vet MPs' expenses.
The Speaker's resignation is not therefore the culmination of the affair, merely the beginning of a necessary clear out in British politics, WEEDING OUT THE' PARASITES' AS ONE CONSERVATIVE LAWMAKER CALLED THEM FROM THE REST.
ASK these *Q –apply to PG & BOD of CC:
*The following ‘Questions’ were posed in Twitter by Richard Quest (CNN)
# i was once advised you only resign if caught with fingers in the till or you can make political capital. or am i cynical?
# Have you ever resigned on a matter of honour or waited till you get pushed out !!?
# England's speaker finally resigns after pressure. IS resignation as a matter of honour a thing of the past ? Resignatoin as last resort ?
# Tonight's Question - When would YOU resign from your job ? Matter of honour or last resort ? Have we forgotten Honour ?
Wow God is so good.
I have been a member of Calvary Church from Jalan Sayor days but the church never called me for the meetings.....those who are in the same category as me should rejoice because it gives us the privilege to ask questions during AGM. I mention privilege, so exercise it.
Please set aside time for the AGM on 19.6.09 at 7.00pm and applies to both voting and non-voting member.
Our God can use you to be His mouthpiece to speak up as His Holy Spirit moves. Let us put our hands, hearts together to steer our church to become God fearing instead of fearing just mere man like SP.
Yes, I have been attending CC in DH before SP became a pastor of CC. HOW COME THEY DIDNT CALL ME? Lets us ask ourselves this one simple question. If CC continues to be run and administered as before, who stands to benefit from it. I mean benefit financially. If TTG succeed in restoring Truth And Transparency in CC, does any member of the TTG group benefit from it financially or in anyway? The answer is a big NO. So you figure it out now on what is actually happening in CC.
Yes, I totally agree. Let's all make it a point to attend this upcoming AGM. Really, we must prove to those who are still ignorant on the whole matter, that we are not there to create trouble, nor are we there to divide the church! Oh such a total mix up!
But remember, let's offer kind remarks where rudeness is slapped. Let's offer a smile when the chairman points the seat. Let's offer a handshake when they say "take another bus". Let's give them a hug when they question our motives.
Seriously, we need to set an example to the other members. We are the ones with open eyes. And we need to help our brothers and sisters who are still in the dark. The only way to do it, is to offer a brotherly love, something most of them are often deprived of.
Agree?
Aunty Karen, thank you again for your rainbow experience. I am confident that God is not totally silent on the matter. In His due time, He will bring about reconciliation to the church. I do not know how specifically, but I know I have faith and trust in Him. This matter has troubled me greatly, and affected my worship in church. But I am not leaving the church because the church needs me in times like these.
Let's continue to spend time on our knees. Our pastors don't do that. But we can.
May God bless Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur!
Agree with a fellow blogger who wrote abt the perception of cult practices, past and present practices provide some clue and evidence in support.
Just rewind to typical performances of unabashed acts of support for PG(the chairman) at past annual and special meetings. I have to emphasise that the same few associate pastors, deacons and members would weep while telling-off church members for raising a point on legitimate church governance issue.
Such ugly and irresponsible demonstration of crying and defending against legitimate questions raised on matters of church adminstration is a reflection of the poor quality and control of meeting chairmanship, leadership and discipleship.
I reckon it is now more difficult for the regular "performers" to attempt such weeping acts as the part-takers would make a fool of themselves post-revelation of a very long listing of wrong-doings and bad financial management of church resources.
Be calm, stay cool and not be provoked during this coming AGM.
to the blog adminstrator, please post at both columns if you do approve
hiyoh mesti lah church attendance going down..... pasal calvarytoday dan TTG la... Including Dr.Lum....HM.... Winslow..... KC Lim... this all evil people.... syaitan.
You were not called because you are a Dead Wood or you pose no threat to them
You are in their comfort zone.
Liza Low,
I don't see the article by Robin has anything to do with our church.
Michael Martin resigned as Speaker doesn't mean SP must also resign.
Your continous attempts is simply to find fault in church decisions and make it questionable in the public.
Despite all the proofs of no wrong doing, you still didn't get it.
Why don't you ask these questions?
# Am I being cynical, if you have ever resigned on a matter gracefully !!?
# IS accepting and respecting our brothers and sisters is not part and parcel of Christian life? Or it is now no longer grace but your worldy standards?
# Tonight's Question - When would YOU resign from false accusations? Matter of grace or pride? Have we forgotten forgiveness?
I was called to attend the meeting and went with an open heart.
I am expecting the church to address the issues but to my dissappointment, I dont see any solution but instead I saw a scheme in preparation for our coming AGM in order to change the mindset of people believe that the issues are not issues. The constitutions says that you need two thirds majority to remove SP and from what I can see, this is definite a smart thinking plan to target small groups so that the quiet or 'not idea what's going on' will not start thinking when those vocal ones question.
Question posted were either not answer or too general like a wind brushes by hoping that you dont catch it and digged deeper. Sad.
Hey Anon 1.01,
IF, a big fat IF, your beloved SP want
#1 - to carry big worldly title like Tan Sri, and
#2 - have a big sounding position like promoting himself to SENIOR EXECUTIVE PASTOR, and
#3 - draw big Fat Salary like CEO of the world and
#4 - drive Big expensive car like a Volvo and
#5 - eat in all the Big posh restaurants and get heavy and then #6 - have to sit Big Seat Business Class to feel comfortable and then #7 - claim that the 1994 BOD promised him increment but he never took more than 10 years ago to join Big Name Jackie Chan club to get fit? to climb big Mt Kinabalu,
then tell your beloved pastor PG to accept criticism the Big Worldly way. In fact you better tell him since he got so many BIG BIG TITLES and sitting in so many BIG BIG this board and that board in the whole world so big, he better get ready to be a big time "star" in the public ......
Suddenly all of your talking about church life, forgiveness etc etc.
Questions for tonight.
#1 - Was your SP thinking of love and forgiveness when he ask the staff who past retirement to work with half pay?
#2 - When he ask for people to recommend him for big worldy public title, Datuk & Tan Sri, did he really think that he can live double standard life, 1 in church the holy pastor who ask us to sacrifice our money for missions work and then he splash our hard earned money to live the arrogant Tan Sri in public?
#3 - There has been no proofs that he did no wrong so please don't bluff us anymore. It is all you fellas, APs and BOD who tell us members that he has done no wrong and expect us to believe you. Why don't SP let Bro HM see the auditors and lawyers report? Why hiding?
#4 - Ask your beloved to take the ultimate test if he has the guts. STAND FOR APPOINTMENT AGAIN AS CALVARY CHURCH'S SENIOR PASTOR AND LET THE MEMBERS VOTE HIM BACK WITHOUT AND DOUBTS. Ask him if he dare to take the challenge! If he has done no wrong, he has nothing to fear or worry about.
During mother's day msg, PG2 mentioned IF she has money she will give to CCC.
If she has no money, who has? As a G family they own 4 houses, 3 in Bangsar + 1 in TTDI besides a whole fleet of cars, flashy jewellery etc.
If she has no hard cash (can't believe it though see her expensive dresses), she could easily sell 1 house because G consists of 3 families, they do not need the 4th house.
Please people, think about it!!!
When I give to missions, I expect money to go towards the preaching of the gospel, not for G family to splash in biz class tickets etc.
Do u want this to carry on? Please decide with the wisdom that the Lord gave u and not blindly follow whatever justification given for their extravagent lifestyle using the money that we give out of the little we earn!!!
One who calls his brothers satan has no Christ in one's life.
To :Anon 1.01 ;
The' EXPENSE SCANDAL' of the House of Common has all the similarities of what is taking place in CC.
In particular, from the abuses of position, using technicality/ and constitution to justify no wrong doing. This statement couldn’t said it better: ” The Claims …WERE TECHNICALLY WITHIN THE RULES BUT A MILLION MILES AWAY FROM THE SPIRIT IN WHICH THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN INTERPRETED”.
The only difference is, those who are directly and even indirectly involved in the Scandal had either resigned-- showing that they at the very least, take ACCOUNTABILITY, and so were those removed/ or asked to step down, WHEREAS, in the case of CC, PG & BOD continue to pass the buck, and let their self interest reign supreme, and hang-in for self-preservation at all cost—even to the detriment of the Body of Christ.
And most importantly, for the UK Parliament, nothing get swept under the carpet, and no attempt to hid anything, after being found out, rather, they openly
admitted all the wrong and act swiftly, including setting up an INDEPENDENT Council among other steps, to deal with the Crisis, for the purpose of true REFORM.
May I cite Just one example: Till today, after 5 years in the asking of What is the Stipends ( Salary) of PG, no answer has been given! ( the fact is not even all of BOD know, by their own admission) Now, is this not ridiculous? Why and What is it so Secretive or Confidential about such disclosure? Why the need for speculation?
It will not be surprising, apart from the Salary, the Benefits & Perks package of PG
could well take the route of those like UK MP’s who “built themselves a lucrative and poorly supervised system of expenses which allowed them to top up their salaries by other means.” The dog food claim by PG under “security” that was alleged, now seems highly probable.
Enough has been said and revealed, the list is very long.
All that Concerned members are asking is Truth, Transparency & Good Governance, and therefore please do not confuse yourself with forgiveness
and out of context subject to cloud the obvious problems highlighted.
The TRUTH COMMISSION has been proposed, and it ought to be set –up to get to the bottom of matter. Any fair minded person, and those who sincerely seek truth will not resist its establishment but fully support it.
Lastly, to Anonymous,( Why do hide your identity?) and anyone who wants to know the grounds I have covered for this TTG cause, please go the Archive in CT to read up.
(This is copied from Pt 1 & 2 Comments and posted here by CT as it carries a message that we all should be aware of and take note, in case some members missed reading it)
________________________________
I am compelled to write my first posting in CT.
My wife got a personal call from an Assc Pastor today inviting her to attend the closed door meeting session? My wife asked and was told that I too will be invited to attend a different closed door session by another Assc Pastor separately - no calls yet though? I really cannot understand this? Why can't my wife and I attend the session together? Why separate the wife from the husband? Has CC stop recognizing us "together"?
CC is getting stranger by the day and minute? Why and what does the pastors & BOD hope to achieve by the separate husband & wife sessions?
I am absolutely perplexed? When is all these rubbish and politics going to stop?
I am being questioned by certain people I know in the marketplace 'what's happening to CC?'. Even my non Christian bro-in-law knows of this blog through his friends; he mocks my faith?
I am at loss even to explain to my children why Christian pastors, BOD and adults behave in such a manner?
I am stupefied by the actions of my pastors & BOD? Is transparency, open dialogue & accountabilty such impossible words? Spellbound??? Is these all about US or him? .....??? or HIM?
I am shocked that church leaders and people I thought I know well over 20+ years and respect can continue to scheme, tell lies and act in such unforgiving manner?
When is godly sanity going to prevail? How can we even gather together to worship Him?
I am so ashamed of my faith today?
I am so ashamed of all of these so called charades?
I am so ashamed to even be called a Christian today?
Can we still even trust each other again after all these?
To Anon 1.01
Dear, dear, who shot the first arrow to kill a right-thinking ex-deacon to stand up and stand out against all odds to reveal and tell the many many bad system and wrong-doings in the church governance, stewardship of funds and abuse of power.
You now talk about love and forgiveness from the congregation who is now better informed and up in arms saying that enough is enough.
Before the show cause letter of right to church membership and holding a kangoroo court to decide the case of Bro Dr Lum, did anyone in the pastoral staff or Board of Deacons pause for a second to thing of the harm pain and self-esteem caused to him and his family. Name Dr. Lum's sinful action and we can name you many times more of PG's wrong-doings and deceits.
Please stop telling me and like the hollowness of the sunday sermons preach abt love and forgiveness.
When the CC pastors marry you, they say "what God has put together, let no man put asunder" BUT they then put them apart, by placing one as Voting member & the other as Associate member, & sitting them separately at AGMs & EGMs.
Now, worse still, as Bro. Kian Seng has revealed, they even call the husband & wife to come for separate "ceramahs", then when they hear the story differently (remember how Joseph Geread got 3 different answers to his SINGLE question from a Deacon wannabe, an existing Deacon & an Associate Pastor who were all there together); WOULDN'T THAT CAUSE THE HUSBAND & WIFE TO DIFFER & PERHAPS TO HAVE A HEATED ARGUMENT OVER WHAT THEY HAD HEARD SEPARATELY?
I wonder whether there is any Godly wisdom amongst our PG, BOD & APs when they planned for all these "ceremahs"? Well, I suppose when it's NOT from God then obviously there would be NO Godly wisdom, right?
The "ceremahs" are a waste of time & resources; who is paying for all the electricity, etc.?
In mid 2004, when the CALVARYmen conducted the Financial Freedom seminar over 10 Saturdays at DP, they were asked to pay for the electricty used. So PG & BOD, no DOUBLE standard, OK? Do make sure you collect from yourselves for all the extra electricity, etc. incurred for all these "ceremahs" over the past 2 weeks & the coming weeks as well.
To Anon 1.1 and all those who asked the members speaking up for truth, transparency and good governace to show LOVE.
It boggles our mind to think that these spiritual ones asked the TTG people but never use their minds to think:
Please think deeply and carefully:
"SHOULD NOT OUR SHEPHERD, SP SHOW LOVE"
What's wrong with him taking the step he should have done long, long ago.
The "Divine Right" Of Pastors
by Van Robinson
Pastors of churches are like monarchs in European history who believed in the "Divine Right of Kings." Religious rulers and governments have a great deal in common, because they all believe in "Divine Right" to rule your life. One great, overwhelming lesson in life on earth is that human beings are not now, and never have been qualified to rule over their fellow man. Many kings and queens in history are notorious as tyrants, liars, thieves and murderers. The same is true of many rulers of governments throughout time, regardless of titles. The world we live in is a world of mind boggling injustices, in the name of "security", "national interests", "freedom", "self defense", "self preservation", "law", "religion", "God", "the Bible", "false accusations", "health", "prevention", "education", "science" and "the way that seems right."
Pastors of churches believe in "Divine Right" of authority over common believers, based upon certain very specific scriptures, and have seduced millions of church goers that they are appointed by Jesus Christ as "authority" figures. Even when there are contradictions in the Bible, pastors, theologians, "scholars" and Christian leaders vocalize that "the Bible is infallible and inerrant." Church rulers love to quote, "Obey those who have the authority over you", and similar erroneously (perhaps intentionally) "translated" verses, because those verses give them power, which they love. Never mind that those verses contradict everything taught by Jesus Christ in the four Gospels, which a careful study of the teachings of Jesus will reveal to any discerning truth seeker.
[Editor's note: We here at Battered Sheep Ministry stand by our statement of faith, which states that the Bible is the written revelation of God, fully authoritative, complete and sufficient in all respects. We also remind our readers that the inclusion of an article on our website does not necessarily imply agreement or endorsement.]
There are two things in life that leaders dearly love, and that is power over others and other people's money. Human governments are not God, they only rule others as if they are. The extremely worn out phrase "it's the law", is not the law of God, but simply man made rules, that are enforced upon all citizens. Many pastors and Christians alike believe governments are ordained of God, and the "Divine Right" of rulers is always enforced, often against the will of the people.
Read the rest here:
http://www.batteredsheep.com/divine.html
I refer to the scolding comment by Anonymous,May 22, 2009 12:41 PM
Quoting him/her, "hiyoh mesti lah church attendance going down..... pasal calvarytoday dan TTG la... Including Dr.Lum....HM.... Winslow..... KC Lim"
So they admit that church attendance is going down. Good job you guys, at least they cannot mislead so many people anymore. Can't wait to hear what Patrick W will say at this AGM regarding church attendance. He can start thinking of more tortoise story now.
Don't worry about the "syaitan" bit. They are angry becoz attendance down means offering down. We all know their true intention for working in church now - FOR MONEY only. Chinese got a saying translated like this, "no money, talk to the devil" that's why they call you syaitan. You guys TOTT for them. Remember TOTT - turn off the tap.
good point..remember TOTT. also, since these ppl acknowledge attendance is going down, I wonder if they will finally be humble enough to admit that Calvary DOES NOT minister to more than 10,200 people..more like to 3,000 people and going down!
AWAS 1!
ACTION speaks Louder than Words:
It's very puzzling that members need to ask for 'love' call for 'love' and prompt for "love' from "Pastor" of CC-- This is so pathetic!
AWAS 2!
PG's love is 'Love' only, when you have money to give them. ( it's open secret, the "rich$$$ & influential" ones in the congregation have already been identified and roped in and made them feel very special by him& Wife, so he can count on them anytime to write a cheque whenever called upon.
( the 20:80 rule applies:PG relies on these his special members to support his Ambition) Hence, if you are in the 80% group, it is of no value to him, It's Big Fish he is interested in.( he is in panic mode, because already a few Multi millionaires have left)
Love? even those who have extended family-ties, are given the brush-off for decades.
AWAS 3!
PG is not at all bothered if you leave the church, he is only concern if it starts to hurt his pocket, plans & vision(?)
Proof? From PG, to the Ass. Pastor, BOD, his daughter, Pam G, who heads the Youth, and even his Grand daughter tell those who even as to dare to express any inkling of concern over CC crisis,
" go where you can think you can find spiritual food", " why don't you find another Church" or point blank "why don't you leave!"
AWAS 4!
For him It's Guneratnam Dynasty. Period. ( the succession plan is all in place, you have PG, PG JR. and PG the THIRD, and Pam G, if male heirs end)
AWAS 5!
Message over the decades is always on FAITH : of course with Variations, but ultimately it's about GIVING, "keep noting for yourself but give everything you have, and be blessed) Hmm, true,
why don't the G's sell their houses, to lead by example???
And did someone said PG's wife said "IF I have Money, I give to CCC?" Even in Crisis her 'ACTING' skill is still so good. (She is known to have thousands of CA$H in her handbag at any one time.
--which is considered small change) And why on earth, did "John the Baptist head" got into a Mother Day's message, someone remarked thoroughly confused by it. ( maybe, as with their style, one needs to listen between the lines)
When one steps into CC, it's "AWAS" sign all over
so, not surprising one bit many leave at their own accord...why willingly be tripped & stumbled?
Hey people,
on the positive side, this ceramah's is a good time to voice out our concerns!
not if we're not even invited to attend the ceramahs :(
To: Good time to voice out said..
Don't be too happy as yet. From experience, nothing much said would have any effect. They will said they have taken note but it has yet to be seen whether any action will be taken.
Remember the promises they made - "Yes, we will let you have the accounts for the extended minstries" Have you seen any signs of the accounts yet and that was promised when? - during last year's AGM.
Chances are they wanted to see what you voice out and then cover themselves with "proof" and "documents".
VOTE WISELY - REJECT ROGUE CHRISTIAN LEADERS! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yro-vhML8Q8
I pondered how to respond to some of the cries I have heard in Calvary Today regarding recent events. The one that really 'angered' (Holy Anger!) is the genuine concerns raised by Brother Lee Kian Seng.
"I am being questioned by certain people I know in the marketplace 'what's happening to CC?'. Even my non Christian bro-in-law knows of this blog through his friends; he mocks my faith?"
I have never met you but I am with you brother in this matter. Let us do all we humanly can and leave the rest in HIS hands.
HERE IS MY RESPONSE IN YOUTUBE:
VOTE WISELY AT THE NEXT AGM - REJECT ROGUE CHRISTIAN LEADERS!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yro-vhML8Q8
Vijay
Faith Promise Sunday CC
Last Sunday was supposed to be Faith Promise Sunday in CC. Unlike the previous Faith Promise Sundays, this time PG did the preaching himself instead of an invited speaker. Every worshiper was given a card with the title "Expect A Miracle", to either renew their previous pledges (which they failed to fulfill) or to commit to a new pledge. By so doing they could expect a miracle to happen in their life as claimed by the APs and PG.
For the first time in my Christian life (for almost 29 years now) I had to literally rebuke a pastor's message in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ throughout the duration of the 'message.' Oh, was I not fearful that God would judge me and my action would bring condemnation to me and my loved ones? Actually, I was initially; I was very careful too that I do not take the Lord's name in vain. I told the Lord that if what I was doing wasn't right, I'm prepared to be judge by Him when comes judgement day. But if what I was doing was right in His sight, then please intervene in the situation of CC.
PG said a miracle is not a gift from God! I almost fell off my chair. If a miracle is not a gift from God, then what is a miracle? From what I understand, a miracle is a supernatural or natural event with precise timing to bring glory to God. A miracle is a blessing from God and surely blessings are gifts from God.
The way PG put across his message was, "if you want to have miracles, you would have to do something to get them (in last Sunday's perspective was to give money towards CCC). " Who wouldn't want a miracle in their lives? But to say that you need to give (money) in order to receive a miracle from God is truly blasphemous! That was manipulating the word of the Lord.
Continue...
Continue...
Faith Promise Sunday CC
PG tried to impress the worshipers that there were many "miracles" that took place in the process of building the CCC. One of them which he claimed to be a "miracle" from God was the approval of RM35 million loan from the bank! How could he ever claim that to be a "miracle" from God when in Proverbs 22:7 says "...the borrower is the servant to the lender." and in Romans 13:8 it says, "Owe no man anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves his neighbours has fulfilled the law." How could God go against His own words? Never would He do that.
The Lord also said in Matt 6:25-30, "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn't there more to life than food and more to the body than clothing? Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you more valuable than they are? And which of you by worrying can add even one hour of his life? Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. Yet I tell you not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won't he clothe you even more, you people of little faith?"
By drawing down the RM35 million loan, PG & BOD have actually gone against the commands of the Lord. If truly CCC is the will of God, don't run in front of Him. Don't pandai-pandai go against His command and take a loan. He would provide if truly CCC is His will. Trust Him you men of little faith! On the contrary, He may not have asked us to build such a big church, but if someone claimed that God has given him a vision to build CCC as it is now, and then went against God's command in taking a loan to finance the construction, how could this be possible!!! Think about it brothers and sisters. I believe Dr. Lum had the anointing of the Holy Spirit to request PG and the BOD to put forward to the members of the church for the approval of the RM35 million loan. But, what was PG and the BOD's decision? They have the right to decide without going through the members. My dear brothers and sisters in CC, because of what they have done, we would have to bear the consequences.
PG also gave example of David and Goliath. He said we should not be like Philip who was pessimistic in life but to be like Andrew who was optimistic. He said that we should overcome all the obstacles and challenges that come our way no matter what, and of course he was referring to the construction of CCC. Oh yes, I agree that we need to be optimistic in life, after all we are a chosen one whom have been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. But when we're going against God's commands, and there appear to be challenges and obstacles, we need to come before the Lord and seek His guidance, for those challenges or obstacles may be God's signs of His reproofs.
I urge you my dear brothers and sisters in CC to humbly fast and pray for the situation in our church. Pray that our Just, Fair and Loving God would give us the discernment and wisdom to say and do the rightful thing before Him this coming AGM. Let us be bold and stand up for TRUTH. I know the Lord would definitely ask me to give Him an account of what I've done for the current situation in CC when we meet, and my answer to Him would be: "Lord, I stood up for TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY AND GOOD GOVERNANCE in CC and I feared only You and not men. And I trusted You to do the JUST and RIGHTFUL thing."
Watch the video response by Bro. Vijay in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yro-vhML8Q8. Truly inspiring. I would like to borrow a quote from him, "VOTE WISELY AT THE NEXT AGM - REJECT ROGUE CHRISTIAN LEADERS!"
AWAS 6:
It's just incredible, to read just after my earlier comments how PG uses FAITH to link to blessing by "GIVING-$$$, he now switches ( perhaps after realising the expose´) to "MIRACLES"!!!
i.e.
"GIVE-$$$ and you can expect Miracles!"
p/s Thanks "Expect Miracles..: I watched www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yro-vhML8Q8.
the clip on QUALIFICATIONS according to The BIBLE
is clear to disqualify PG:1st criterion Pastor need to beyond Reproach
I was not in church last Sunday. However, after reading the blog from 'Expect a Miracle', the first thought that came to my mind is that this is 'very similar to pagan worshippers'! Our purpose of giving is not because we expect something in return! It is akin to twisting the arm of God. I see no difference from pagan worshippers. Truly, I am so embarrased by these so called man of God and his followers. Yes, I agree with 'Expect a Miracle'; I can confidently respond to God that I also stood for TRUTH, TRANSPARENCY and GOOD GOVERNANCE. I thank God for the wisdom given unto all the TTG supporters, the TTG core group, Dr. Lum etc. and all of us.
I thought we could expect some spiritual food on a normal Sunday morning service but woe and behold, we were more or less ask to give to CCC.
How can a pastor use the entire Sunday morning service to specifically ask the congregation to give to CCC? Of course, he talked about miracles and that God will bless you, etc.
How do you expect non-believers and visitors to react when they hear such a message. Its all about Please Give, Please Give, Please Give.
No wonder there were so many empty seats in church that morning.
I was just wondering, if God wants the CCC to be built, I am sure you dont have to beg and plead to the church members. They will give naturally. I heard that there was a church nearby that had collected more than they need for the building fund. The pastor just mentioned about the building once or twice in the beginning and no more. I heard that he even had to tell the church members not to give any more as they have already collected enough.
So what is the difference with our CCC?
The simple difference is that why guneratnam is facing so much opposition to the plans is simply because it's not in God's will .
i see churches around kl that , even after 1 time mentioning the building of their new church building(s), everything just works out accordingly and with little or no hiccup.
AWAS 7
The CCC is one man's AMBITION, that's why it get pushed so hard.
The to say the RM150M was "approved" by
members is a lie told many times, only this time implied there was a miracle twist to it!
please watch
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yro-vhML8Q8
1 Timothy 3:1-7
(New International Version)
Overseers and Deacons
1. Here is a trustworthy saying:
If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer,
he desires a NOBLE TASK.
2. Now the overseer must be above REPROACH,
the husband of but one wife, temperate,
self-controlled,
respectable,
hospitable,
able to teach,
3. not given to drunkenness,
not violent but gentle,
not quarrelsome,
not a LOVER OF MONEY.
4. He must manage his own family
well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
5. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?)
6. He must not be a recent convert,
or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
7. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders,
so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap.
8Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of
respect,
sincere,
not indulging in much wine,
and not pursuing dishonest gain.
9. They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience.
10. They must first be tested;
and then if there is nothing against them,
let them serve as deacons.
Strange but it is true, many of us share the same belief that if it's God's plan for us to HAVE AN IMPRESSIVE BUT UNPRACTICAL CCC, He will provide bountifully. By PG preaching 1 whole summon on giving it is obvious he does not believe in his heart, miracles of provision can happen. Then again must quantify with question - is it ever the Lord's plan for us to have this CCC built be a freemason and a pastor who wants to impress people and rob their members of missions funds meant for spreading the gospel?
When our present CC was mooted, everything went smoothly. Though we had not much money, the Lord truly provided bountifully. We move in debt free. The most important factor was the whole church agreed in one accord.
The scenario is entirely different, PG and Board is making us go bankrupt with their ambitious plans for a STATE OF ART Church without counting the cost.
Just a reminder, we have already borrowed RM35 million from Alliance Bank - has PG + Board ever think of how to structure repayment?
If we can't pay back, we will have a foreclosure in our hands which in simple terms means
1) CCC will be abandoned (can't pay present loan, how to loan further?
2) Our present church will have to be auctioned
Our BOD is supposed to be professionals but not PG, so BOD be bold to advise him not to do more dumb things. He was employed to minister the Word of God, not collect funds!!!!
Wonder if we really go bankrupt, will PG still wants to stay and work for free?
Please be aware that we have the Calvaryland which is under utilised. It is indeed sad to see the situation at Calvaryland- huge cowboy town!
Weeping Member,
I also shudder at the thought of all the consequences should CC be unable to handle its financial obligations, will PG, APs and BOD still stay and take on the responsibilities or will they run away?
PG sticks to his self seeking plans under the guise of it being God's revelation to him, and still being so adamant. While APs and BOD are so blind to follow the leader with no proper minds of their own.
It is a scary situation and why are deacons still not coming to their senses? Why aren't they professionals and learned people? Where are their values and principles?
Baffling situation.
Let's start by Auctioning SP
Assets. If cant settle, then
start with his Dynasty, then
APs and then BODs'.
This will hurt them when it comes
from their pockets.
The following comment is submitted to both CU & CT. ___________________________________
I am glad that there are some postings here (CU) by members who said that they were happy/satisfied with the clarification given during the briefing sessions. This is good for them. I agree that the briefings are a step in the right direction as it shows a genuine attempt by the Deacons & Pastors to clarify a number of issues.
What I want to say here is that while I went away satisfied with the clarification on some issues, I nevertheless had more questions than before for others where the "clarification" I felt were merely statements on the position of the Deacons & Pastors but somehow lacking further details, dare I say proof? Perhaps in due time, more information will be shared by the Deacons & Pastors so that these issues can also be sufficiently clarified as well.
However my main question is this: "So where is all this leading to?". Reconciliation and healing of the church? I am sorry to say that somehow I feel we are gearing ourselves up for the fight - the fight to exclude rather than to include; the fight to divide rather than to unite.
One other question: "Have the Deacons & Pastors had any meetings or discussions or dialogue with the so-called TTG group recently to try and find common/middle ground to move forward so that our church can be united once again?" If the answer is "No", how then can we maintain the unity of the church? The objective/solution is surely not for you to go your way and I, mine but for both of us to go the same way! I believe anything other than this desire/objective is NOT God's will.
God Bless all of us!
AWAS 8!
ALWAYS REMEMBER PG is SLY, not Stupid!
1. When it comes to 'decision' it is always not his,
but pointed to his well hypnotized BOD.
2. For evidence & proof, ahh, it's so typical..
Guaranteed ESCAPE term/clause:
Rectification, Rectification, Rectification
To 'Weeping member' 'Baffled' & others
AWAS 9!
CCC, RM35M is far from the end, or shall we say, not anywhere near the bottomless pit of $$$... there is another whooping RM70M!!! for the ID works. ( what else???)
NOTE:
1.PG& BOD always give info in Bits & Pieces.. in
everything, on any matter. (even when found out!
as in present CRISIS' issues)
2. The ever familiar " Have Faith" catch phrase,
which has worked so well until now, that is.
THE GRAIN OF WHEAT MUST FIRST DIE!
I agree with "Discernment Needed"
Based on my discussions with people in the ministry, the only option for the present leadership of Calvary Church is to put "OTHERS ABOVE SELF AND GRACIOUSLY RESIGN".
If those in the present leadership are the Lord's choice, they should not fear because their very act of sacrifice in putting the CHURCH above themselves will be the cross through which the Lord may bring them many untold blessings. Perhaps it may even be the path of grace by which the Lord may one day restore their ministry with more power and grace to bless not only Calvary Church but many more.
For if they are indeed the Lord's choice, He will make a way for their return. NO ONE - even TTG, the Bamboo Conspiracy or anybody can halt the will of God! He will restore the genuine leaders of His choice and the gates of hell cannot prevail against them. BUT FIRST the grain of wheat must die - they must leave so that their death can brings forth much fruit.
BUT - if they are NOT THE LORD'S CHOICE, it is best they leave and trust the Lord to open another door for them NOW into another ministry of His calling. There the Lord will continue to bless them as they put their trust in Him. They need not fear for the Lord is good to those who put their trust in HIM. He will honour them and bless them and their sacrifice today will bring them blessings unimagined! But to forcefully try to retain their position that is not the Lord's will, is a foregone conclusion because the LORD ALWAYS WINS!
I am afraid, if they choose not to leave graciously now, the Lord will remove them by force as an EXAMPLE to others who dare fight the Lord. This will be another red mark for Christianity in Malaysia. The consequences will not be in their favour and may even end their ministry. The Lord has done this before and HE can and will do it again. HE RULES ACCORDING TO HIS OWN COUNSEL!
Vijay
AWAS 10!
Bamboo Conspiracy, the problem is, or rather the saddest thing is, with PG & ALL assoc. pas without exception, they have turned Servant hood calling into a 'Lifestyle' vocation. ( thanks to PG's lead by example)
When coming from a pastor's mouth : "this is my rice bowl", most certainly one knows where the FAITH lies, and that the once upon a time 'True calling' had been "choked".
First get rid of the Root and you
find that the rest will fall like
Dominoes.
If you keep on feeding the Root
with water, how do you expect the
tree to wilt & die ?
Stop Feeding
Hello Terminator...
Very easy. Just remember to TURN OFF THE TAP!!!
After watching the You Tube presentation
please watch
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yro-vhML8Q8
I totally agree.
With all the beautiful & lengthy
titles SP has, the more
disqualified he becomes.
We have to show our thumbs down
like in the Roman gladiator arena.
Vote Wisely
After some consideration, we have decided to share our sister's testimony via e-mail to us here, so that our readers may be blessed.
_______________________________
I am compelled to write this email to you. Please read Deut 5:33, Josh 1:7 & Prov 4:27.
I was driving home from work, deep in thought - thinking about the long conversation I had with my friend about our church situation and the rainbow that Karen saw. I was also worried about some financial problems I may face and how my boss will react. But suddenly, my thought was interrupted by a revelation from God, when some thing just flashed accross my mind. Dont't look to the right or to the left, but focus on the Lord and His promise. I was startled and wondering what is happening. Then my mind was drawn to the Rainbow - His promise. God is telling us don't be distracted, trying to find direction by looking to the right or to the left each time when u come near a split sign - the two arrows sign that indicate where they will lead u to - God is staying the right may lead u to somewhere, and so is the left too, but stay focus on the Rainbow, His promise, He will lead u to where He wants u to be. My heart was overjoyed and my mouth just shout out thank you Lord. Then I started to sing and praise Him.
I hurry back and open my computer to look carefully at the picture of the rainbow and the split sign. Again it confirms to me and help to clear my mind that when u look to the sign it will help u to know where u are heading to when u turn right or u turn left. So when u focus on the Lord and His Promise, u are safe in His hand because He will lead u to where He wants u to be.
You may share this with others if you think it is ok.
Its obvious that this morning message was pre-planned and discussed. But they still dont see the point or what the main problem in Calvary Church is instead of blaming some church members of causing division in the church. How sad. Sigh . . .
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