THIS IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT EXTRACTED FROM
THE LATEST CALVARY NEWS
Robert Selvaratnam and Patrick Wong Sing Fah
were introduced as our Church Elders at the New Year’s Eve Worship Service at Damansara Heights on 31 December 2009.
Robert Selvaratnam is a Pensioner and is married to Lydia Selvaratnam. They have three children, Roy, Brian and Lorna. He has been a Church member since 1982 (27 years) and was a Church Deacon from 1988 to 2001 (13 years). Currently, he is serving as a Life Group Leader and an itinerant teacher and preacher at our Outreaches.
Patrick Wong is a Learning Consultant. Married to Assistant Pastor Shereen Wong, they have two children, Patreen and Shawn. He has been a Church member since 1968 (41 years) and was a Church Deacon from 1980 to June 2009 (20 years). Currently, he is serving as a School of Christian Growth teacher and Chairperson of the CCC Project Committee.
CT's Note: At the last AGM in June 2009, Patrick Wong lost his bid to be re-elected to the Board of Deacons. His inability to garner enough votes was not surprising as members were unhappy with his staunch support and his condoning the mis-management of the church by Senior Pastor Prince and also benefiting personally during his tenure as a deacon.
CT's Note: At the last AGM in June 2009, Patrick Wong lost his bid to be re-elected to the Board of Deacons. His inability to garner enough votes was not surprising as members were unhappy with his staunch support and his condoning the mis-management of the church by Senior Pastor Prince and also benefiting personally during his tenure as a deacon.
****************************************************************************************************
This is a Comment put in by one of the CT readers, which we
have copied and published here for easy reading.
Anonymous said...@ January 13, 2010 2:51 PM
PG'S TRICKS
Brothers and Sisters in Christ, open up your eyes and ears. See and hear what's happening right in front of you !
SP is up to his dirty tricks again, trying to hookwink us with the sudden and unprecedented appointment of two (2) Church Elders. Have you ever stop to think and wonder why SP specially chose ex-Deacon Patrick Wong ? The same Patrick Wong whose name appeared in the nomination list, but was not voted in last year, being unpopular among the CC voting members. So SP exercised his Big Brother power and specifically chose his loyal and faithful servant Patrick Wong. Don't be misled by the artificial (fake/false) atmosphere of transparency at the swearing in ceremony of these two Elders. Especially take real special note of SP's own words, these two Elders have NO EXECUTIVE POWERS. Meaning these two are just puppets, rubber stamps for SP's dictatorial rule. He and his family has been ruling CC like a monarchy, as befitting his ROYAL title of PRINCE G !!!
Calvarites, do not be deceived by SP, who has wrecked havoc in our beloved CC.
Pray that God save us from this spiritual warfare against the forces of darkness. God's anointing has surely left SP, which explains the reasons why the various projects CCC, Calvaryland, CCC Carnival, etc are experiencing difficulties. Deafening silence surrounds these failed projects, with only one liner "explanations" from SP to satisfy our questions. Do not be gullible to swallow the lies and deceits he spews from the pulpit.
Remember what he said ? He said that CC was experiencing some minor issues with CCC, but never mind, instead of working on the CCC building, God is working on CC, the people ie congregation - like you and I ! What blasphemy ! What sinful words SP dares to put in God's mouth !
The implications of his message to the CC congregation is that God suddenly stops in his tracks, says "Opps, sorry, mistake here ... and as an afterthought decides to concentrate on building up the spirituality of HIS people !
Are we the CC congregation supposed to swallow such nonsense which cannot be from God ! And definitely not an annointed message !
Beware, SP, on Judgement Day, you have to answer to GOD Himself the lies you tell us. Stop and repent before too late.
44 comments:
(Relocated here by Administrator)
SILENCE OF THE LAMBS
Take a good look around you next time you attend CC service. Those good old days, attendance is so good the almost all seats in the pews are taken up early. If you are a bit late, you have to seat right at the back. Nowadays, even if you come late you can pick and choose seats upfront, even first row where SP can shcok you from your morning nap by suddenly walking right up to you from the pulpit. Look around, you will see ever increasing empty seats. This phenomenon will keep on growing, signifying the mass migration of Calvarites to greener pastures in the form of other churches, or worse backslidden cases.
Take a good look at the attendance among the children. The numbers have decreased tremendously for Rangers and Missionnettes. Why ?, you may ask yourselves. yet deep inside you already know the truth, the answer to what's happening to CC.
Look around you. What happened to your Christian fellowship friends ? You tried assuring yourselves that they perhaps have gone to other satellite churches. Or have they migrated elsewhere ?
We the lambs (and sheep) are blindly following a false prophet
who pretends to be the earthly shepherd, leading us to the slaughter of our spirituality and spiritual lives. do you not hear the cries among families who are split into two camps - for and against SP and family. Parents against, children, brothers against sisters, brothers against brothers, sisters against sisters... and so on.
Let us all pray for healing and cleansing of CC first.
Note: CCC being designed by a freemason is an abomination in God's eyes. He therefore would not bless the CCC project, letting it fall into ruins, like the total destruction of the Solomon's Temple in Jerusalem by the conquering Romans, until and unless we repent and help go back to the correct path.
Let's turn our eyes and ears to God, not the satanic priest !
Pray for pg to repent.
Dear friends,
I am not a Calvarite...but have been following your disputes on and off.
Please....at this time of trouble, please stop your quarrels....it takes two to do so.
Do NOT use such words as you have posted..."PRINCE of DARKNESS??"
Are you not afraid of the fire and judgment of the LORD yourself?
Please refrain, repent and STOP...by pulling your pastor down...will you not be pulled down too?
Brother Timothy Sng
It is hard for someone like PG who thinks he's done no wrong to even think of repenting. He is a saint in his own eyes. Everyone else who speaks against him is deemed of the satanic kingdom or being possessed by evil. I've given up on him as a Christian, let alone a leader or pastor.
Dear Brother Timothy,
Actually a lot of us do not want to quarrel with our pastors. This is why you see the dwindling numbers in CC. We are all leaving in droves. This site help to highlight the issues and reasons why we are releasing the SPs and its associates into God's hand. By the way, help us understand how the posts here are deemed 'quarrelsome' from an external viewpoint.
CT
Noted that the summons mention on seeking a fresh egm had been postponed 3 times. Will you throw some light on what has happened?
tks
Despite so much being said in CT and outside coffee and tea talks PG is still as arrogant as ever. Associate Pastors and BOD are still as blind and supportive of PG. Don't we see the obvious sign of CC leadership at the brink of being a cult?
Where is the fear of God in CC leaders' hearts? They only pay lip service to what they preach...Don't they fear God's judgment on them for the way they have led and treated the sheep in CC?
Why are they taking their role as shepherds so lightly just because they feel they have to protect the SP and his family's reputation?
Don't they see that PG's reputation has long been wiped off due to his own arrogant and careless conduct?
Even non believers/outsiders can see it and yet the inner circle and PG's followers blindly and compliantly adhere to all his ways.
Sad to say God's presence and God's glory has already departed from Calvary Church... the evidence is seen in the dwindling number of worshippers at CC services.
Other churches are having increased attendence but not at CC!
Unless CC leaders repent and seek God's face again, God will pass by CC when revival sweeps across this land.
I have been following CT for quite some time now. I realized that the best decision I have made for my family & me is to leave CC for good. No point trying change the impossible. TTG & CT can make all the "noises" they want but what will be the results? - NOTHING!!! PG & Co will continue to reign the wealthy CC because there will always be an adequate group of "blind, deaf & dumb" lambs to uphold PG & Co. Shalom!
If my memory serves me right, both these two guys who are now appointed as Church Elders have their children airfare for overseas studies paid by the church.
Very smart choice by PG. Who is better than those who owe him a favour. Who else will be willng to do his bidding except those who have received a gift from?
As long as PG is heading CC, you will not hear of people being called by God into church ministry. Only people chosen by PG.
It is old timers like Robert Ng and those from Jalan Sayor who should be appointed elders of CC. I heard the way he spoke from the recording of the AGM and he has so much to contribute to the church.
Alas, Bro Robert, you joined the wrong camp and you will be forever be sidelined even though I can hear from the passion of your voice, the tremendous zeal you have for our Lord Jesus Christ.
Dear "A New Timer",
Whether Bro Robert is appointed as Church Elder by PG & Gang is no big deal. The difference you need to realize is he stands for Truth, Transparency & Good Governance for CC. May I correct your statement which says, "you joined the wrong camp and you will be forever be sidelined..." Bro Robert never joined the "wrong camp". He's in the RIGHT CAMP in God's eyes and NOT PG's eyes.
Bro Robert, thank you and all the TTG brothers & sisters who stood for TTG in CC. We understand the sacrifices that all of you have gone through. May the Lord continues to bless you and your family. The Lord would reward you for what you've done.
I'm proud of all the core TTG members and members who stood up for TTG in CC. You are more concern of how the Lord sees you than how a mere man would see you.
Shame on you Patrick Wong for accepting the appointment. Remember, you were rejected by majority of the members the last AGM. Of course PG, a BIG SHAME on you! What wisdom did you use for Patrick's appointment? Or was there any wisdom at all?
Dear New Timer
Many supporting TTG are passionate people like Bro Robert. This is not an issue of pursuing after honorific titles and power in position. It is more honorable to stand for Truth, Transparency and Governance. TTG is embodied in Godliness and in fear (reverence)of God; its result - the beginning of Wisdom. When our conscience is clear and clean before God, He is pleased with us. It is better to please God than men as God will favor those whom He is pleased with.
GBU.
WITH GOD - NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE!
I sympathise with those who have given up hope of seeing changes in the leadership structure of Calvary Church. What this implies is that they have stopped exercising faith and accepted it as a fact that rogue leaders in Calvary Church are more powerful than GOD! Such an attitude of faith goes against the BASIC principle of faith: "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see," (Heb. 11:1).
In fact the greatest lesson I have learned from Norman Grubb who in my opinion is the Knight of Faith is "NEVER LOSE FAITH IN GOD. All of us live by faith - only that we don't realise it. You get in the car and drive on faith. You don'' know if you are going to make it to your destination alive or not, but you go. You have faith that the food you buy that is grown by strangers is not harmful, so you eat it. If you did not have faith, if you did not trust others you wouldn't be able to drive, eat, or get help in times of sickness. Your life would be very difficult.
It does not make sense to say one does not believe God to deliver Calvary Church from rogue leadership but at the same time believe in God for Salvation. We either trust God fully or don't. As a Christian we put our trust (faith) in Jesus for Salvation but the only assurance we have is the inner witness of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. SO IT IS BY FAITH WE HAVE ACCEPTED THIS "FACT" WITHOUT ANY EXTERNAL EVIDENCE THAT THIS IS TRUTH!
Faith made Noah work for God. In Gen. 6, we have the tragic story of the decline of humanity into sin (similar to what is happening in some churches today). But God's grace triumphs: God saves Noah. In Noah, his faith manifested itself in real works. James 2:26 says, "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." Noah built an ark because he believed in God.
Faith is not something for long ago; for trusting in Jesus for salvation and not trusting Him for anything else. It means you trust Him for everything--even when it is difficult sometimes. It means that every day you continue to trust Him and that you continue to manifest the fruit of your faith.
The greatest SIN a Christian can commit is to lose faith in God - because unbelief is SIN! What it means is you are telling the whole world that JESUS' DEATH ON THE CROSS HAS NO MEANING! GOD'S STRATEGY TO SAVE THE WORLD BY SACRIFICING HIS ONLY SON ON THE CROSS WAS A WASTED EFFORT. OR IS IT?
If we believe that we might as well not only leave Calvary Church - but stop going to any other churches because after all what evidence do we have that God will help us in our times of need as we already believe that God cannot deliver Calvary Church from rogue leaders. We either have faith in God for all things or not. We cannot pick and chose! Hebrews 11:6 "And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him" (NIV).
Faith connects you to God; it is your admission that you are dependent upon Him; that your hope is in Him. It pleases Him, because it is Him you are trusting and no one and nothing else.
In conclusion, faith is where you please God, admit your dependence upon Him, and continually seek to rely upon Him and His grace.
BY FAITH TTG, CALVARY TODAY AND MANY OTHERS BELIEVE THERE IS A LIVING GOD WHO WILL DELIVER HIS PEOPLE FROM CRUEL TASK MASTERS JUST LIKE HE DID WHEN HE DELIVERED ISRAEL FROM EGYPT!
Vijay
PG & Co will triumph & glorified for as long as we have people like Vijay who wrote under the pseudonym "Bamboo Conspiracy". Vijay labelled those who left CC as having "loss faith in God". Vijay's judgement is simplistic to say the least. Leaving a rotten church does not equate to leaving faith in God. If those who "leave" had sinned under Vijay's definition, how about the likes of Tan Sri Dato PG & Co who caused people to leave CC? Are they not committing a heinous sin as well? Or should PG & Co be praised for "keeping their faith & continue to swindle both God and man???" No wonder CC is in such pathetic stage.....:<
Shalom - PLim
PRINCE OF DARKNESS 2
We stand guilty in the eyes of our Brother Timothy Sng, accused of being quarrelsome and for "pulling down" SP. Brother Timothy, are you not yourself acting harshly, especially prematurely passing judgement of damnation against we, your fellow Christians (even befrore you know about the ugly facts surrounding SP) ?
Please note, we do NOT want any quarrel with SP. In fact, like the rest of TTG, concerned CC members and other like minded Godly individuals and groups, we strongly desire Truth, Transparency and Good Governance to be regularly practised by the CC leadership. We have decided to be among the front line Warriors for God's Truth, Transparency and Good Governance, by actively supporting TTG's noble cause to save CC from its present spiritual decay and eventual destruction.
We have decided NOT to meekly accept the continuous bullying of the CC congregation by a satanic priest backed by his henchmen. We have decided NOT to run away and hide in shame in other churches for somebody else's sins. We have decided NOT to wring our hands in helplessness, just crying to God for help.
We have decided that enough is enough !
We have decided to stand firm in our grounds, and to fight, reclaiming every millimetre of Holy ground, against forces of evil. We are united together, in Christian brotherhood and sisterhood, prepared to battle with the cause and source of spiritual cancerous growth strangling CC's progress to be a fountainhead church.
In righteous anger, we are prepared to call a spade a spade.
Jesus Himself called names against the Pharisees and Seducees. Let us not forget the brave anti-Establishment acts of martin Luther who led the start of the Lutheran Church and Reformation of churches. What about the worldwide rebellion against the Roman Catholic church with its Spanish Inquisitiion ? Godly Christians stood up for the Truth to fight against injustice !
What's wrong with calling a dictatorial cult leader, misleading his congregation from Godly principals - a Prince of Darkness ? Read besides this blog, other comments from other bloggers for details.
To be cointinued.
Dear Calvary Today, TTG, friends, anonymous,,
Firstly, thank you for publishing my comments. I wrote from my heart, when I read comments written.
Anonymous is right. No one should condemn anyone, nor call anyone any names. My comments were non-judgmental but of great concern for both parties in this conflict that drags everyone down.
Have we not forgotten that we have a great God Who sees everything, knows everything and will act on judgment Day! Let us fear Him, and refrain from all disputes.
Both parties have spoken....and have spoken at length. In my opinion, Calvary Church belongs to no one but GOD Himself, unless He has disowned Calvary Church. Thus, there is no need to tussle and pull at the poor baby....King Solomon's advice comes to mind....cut and divide!
NO...give it to the other...for all who truly LOVE the Church of Christ....conflict divides.
Besides, by this, we know that you belong to Me, that you love one another...and love will overcome.
You may say, PG does not love us...in fact he sacked our friends and Dr Lum.....
Still, love him, pray for him...and do not allow any "BOMBS" and "MOLOTOV COCKTAILS" to be thrown at Calvary.
What is the best solution!
I personally would advise all to stay....not flock to the other churches....
Stay on....NOT to fight, but to LOVE...
It will add coals of fire on the `enemy', if there is one..
Do not be mistaken.....conflict is never from God.....2Timothy2 says clearly....Christians should never quarrel.
I know and I am sure that you have been grieved, hurt, upset and probably...you are all right about your points.....even your comments about PG.....but where does this lead too?
Is it a time for controversy and dispute or a time for healing and unity?
Think carefully....if this matter ends up in court...will it not be front-page NEWS...and will not the NATION and NON-Christians laugh at all Christians...ALL CHRISTIANS....not only Calvarites...but ALL CHristians..and will not the Lord's NAME....HIS Revered Name be affected.
How can any of you be sure...that our Lord JESUS is not displeased with all the things that is going on?
Take a poll....among believers outside Calvary...seek their opinion.....some may be for you....but the vast majority will not be pleased.....
God appoints...let GOD remove.
Stop all rebellious activity...OUR GOD can ACT....leave HIM alone....
VENGEANCE is HIS....
I do not judge you all....and I know many of you...are good people, good Christians....and my heart weeps for you all, that you may endanger yourselves....when you raise up issues....
like many against MOSES and other leaders...
LET GOD HANDLE HIS SERVANTS' WRONGDOINGS...like the steward who did wrong.
Stay away from dangerous activities....never go against your spiritual leader...pray for him.
Bro Timothy
Bro Timothy,
I truly salute your continuous effort to "justify" the shameful acts of PG & Co. However, your proposed solution i.e. Don't take any action, just continue to shower PG & Co with "love" and wait for divine retributions is presumptous if not passive.
Whether CC case goes to Court or otherwise, CC is already a laughing stock in the community. I even have non-christian friends who asked about the CC crisis and even a simple layman could not fathom as to why PG&Co should be allowed to continue to abuse the gifts and donations supposingly for CC for their own luxurious living. Remember - some of the donors are from the lower strata of the society and their hard earned money, donated as a gift of love and sacrifice to the Lord has been swindled by PG & Co.
Imagine if we do not have a group of decent people like TTG & CT who selflessly undertake this noble quest to right the wrong, PG & Co will continue to "suck the bloods" of the innocent.
Are we supposed to continue to love him, give him more money, never even criticize him and only silently pray for divine intervention?
Sorry, Bro Timothy. I think you are probably living in Garden of Eden. It is as good as telling the sick not to see a doctor but pray for divine healing. Again, I apologize for my language but I just can accept such a nonsensical piece of advice.
Shalom. PLim
Hahaha...I think somebody really expect Jesus together with probably Moses, Abraham, Elijah etc to come to CC this Sunday, walk right up to the pulpit and perform a "Donald Trump" on PG & cohort - "YOU ARE FIRED!"
What a laugh Bro Timothy. Thank you very much!
We need to hear from God and not from fleshy shepherds who do not speak the truth or from His Word.
At Calvary Church the Word is not spoken in purity or in truth.
We need to worship God in spirit and in truth. But in Calvary Church there is pretence and falsehood and our spirits are being stiffled. The good of God sense in us cannot be nurtured.
We need to share and make use of our spiritual gifts as God has endowed upon His children for the good of the Body of Christ. But in Calvary Church we are being marginalised and not allowed to exercise our giftings. Why: because we speak out the truth and ask for good governance and transperancy.
We want to give generously for God's work and God's kingdom.
But in Calvary Church the peoples' gifts are not utilised for the work of God but channelled for areas/ purposes best known by CC leaders alone and we are not allowed to ask.
We are only to required to give and not to ask about how the moneys are channelled or what has happened to the gifts thereafter.
We are called to love and serve as God's people in the Body.
But in Calvary Church we are just a channell or source to give moneys for the mega projects... that is the primary objective.
This is just a brief summary of the observations in CC. How to be part of CC and not feel dried up or shrivelled up spiritually?
How to remain in CC and not expect to be spiritually dead in months or years to come?
We have to choose to stay alive and be relevant as Christians or choose to be half dead in our spiritual life.
Dear PLim
First, I am sorry and I do apologice if I gave the impression that leaving Calvary Church was an indication of lack of faith or unbelief and sinful. My fault for not being clear in my comment
Please note I did mention "If we believe that WE MIGHT AS WELL NOT ONLY LEAVE CALVARY CHURCH - BUT STOP GOING TO ANY OTHER CHURCHES..."
The implication is one who has lost faith will not only leave Calvary Church BUT ALSO stop going to any other churches.
Hence, as long as your have left Calvary Church and gone to other churches for fellowship and spiritual growth and continue to maintain faith that the Lord has a solution for Calvary Church, you are not the believer I am addressing my comment.
I am specifically addressing, those who have TOTALLY LOST FAITH THAT GOD CAN DELIVER CALVARY CHURCH FROM ROGUE LEADERS. My intention was to correct the erroneous believe/perception that the present leadership was MORE powerful than God.
I know some of my friends have left Calvary Church and presently attending other churches for spiritual growth. Some have indicated the exit was temporary while others have indicated the exit was permanent. But they continue to maintain faith that the Lord will vindicate and bring justice to Calvary.
There are stages in faith - little, weak and strong and our action is according to the faith the Lord has imparted to us at the present time. Some exercise little faith, while others exercise great faith and act according to the will of God for that period of time. That is not sinful.
Hence, according to the operational faith the Lord has imparted, some have exercised great faith and stood the ground as intercessors to declare the will of God in the midst of troubles.
Once again my apology if my comment was not clear.
Vijay
Worshiper for 25 years ...
PG's 60 years of age, is an illegal PASTOR and is no longer Senior Pastor of CC according to the church handbook!
All church decisions made and elders appointments, etc, etc are NULL & VOID in GOD's sight.
Let the LORD of HOST deal with PG & PG2 & others in HIS Ways !
Let's continue to Fast and Pray in the SPIRIT for Wisdom, Revelation, Peace and Tranquility to prevail.
My beloved Brothers & Sisters in Christ,
Ps. Kelvin here from JB. May we carefully reflect what Bro. Timothy has written... and also take into some consideration with your replies.
Bro. Timothy does not take the sides of man, but when we read his comments... I am sure that the only side he is taking is that of the Lord's.
If you indeed feel that you have to move-on from Calvary Church to another... then let it be done in a manner that pleases our Lord Jesus Christ. The shame caused in our once beloved church has escalated to a 'Freak Side-Show' and the only name that is put to shame and mockery to our Lord Jesus Christ. If you must leave... leave with the back-door closed and not opened for our common adversary the devil to huant us with in the future.
Let us allow Jesus to be the Lord over this matter... allowing Him to deal with the respective individuals.
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin
Sorry Ps Kelvin but I have to correct you a liitle bit here.
You said, "the only name that is put to shame and mockery to our Lord Jesus Christ" I believe you only Jesus Christ's name is put to shame. Pastor, please have faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. No one can put shame on His matchless Name.
As I see it, the only name that is put to shame is that of PG's and his family. I just read the testimony of Metro T Church in Berita Calvary. How can you say that what is happening in Calvary Church is bringing shame to Jesus. God forbid this to be so. In fact, Christ and the church in Malaysia is not affected at all. It only affected Calvary Church and PG and PG's vision to be greatest in Malaysia.
Ps Kelvin and Bro Timothy, I have some questions for you and others to think about also.
1. WHY HAS PG NOT TRIED TO SETTLE OUT OF COURT?
2. Do you think that all the Christians councils in Malaysia are not interested and are concern about what is happening in CC?
3. Do you think they would have tried to contact PG and the pastors to solve this conflict internally? Can you ask them since you are a pastor also? (don't know about Bro Tim)
4. Pastor, Brothers & Sisters, HOW WOULD YOU HAVE ADDRESSED THIS CONFLICT FROM THE BEGINNING? WOULD YOU STILL MEET THE CHURCH MEMBERS IN COURT NOW?
5. Compare your answer with what PG has done so far and what he is continuing to do? Do you think that PG and CC leaders have acted in a Christian manner? Have they considered what their action can do to the Name of Jesus Christ?
6. Should the pastors not be the "bigger person" to set the example of Christ first loving the Church, by extending out that hand in love for God's children?
7. Is it Christ's teaching that leaders can do what they like and believers of Christ must not question their actions but only love them? Then who may I ask are to love the members who are also the children of God?
My guess is PG is not interested in solving this conflict the Christian way with Christian principles, ie. WITH LOVE. He would rather meet in the secular court where Christian principles are not used. He has the millions of the members hard earned contribution to use to engage the famous and powerful lawyer to defend him.
Do you really think that PG wants to settle this conflict with Love to protect the Name of Jesus Christ? My guess is NO!
The inaction or seemingly no action of the church councils tells me they have failed to convince PG to settle this out of court for the sake of Christ.
I wish to be circumspect on the many issues put forward by Bro Tim Sng and echoed by Ps. Kelvin Lim.
We can excuse your views Bro Tim as you have claimed not a Calvarite
Firstly, one ought to agree the fact that any person who is known to be stubborn, hardened and fond of intimidating others has a bad attitude and is not therefore suitable for a continuous leadership role.
Secondly, any person who lacks humility cannot express genuine concern care and love.
Thirdly, in the defence untruthfully promoted through PG's proxies since the beginning of small group meeting abt 20 months past with the APs, BODs, PG1 is bent upon a self-denial and delusional mode calling his mistakes, misdeeds, moral misconduct and blatant excesses of cravings for the pleasures and materialism of the world as "baseless allegations"
I cannot think of more appropriate term of endearment for PG than the description already used by fellow bloggers. Many workers in leadership position have been unceremoniously removed simply because they are Calvarites who speak seek and support truth transparency and strong governance. Please recognise that such teachings of faith truth and obedience are found in the Word as breathed by God. If the leadership professes to show care & love, dismissal and termination of church positions would not have been pursued so unrelentlessly such as the setting-up of a kangaroo court and putting signatures to declaration forms to support a flawed leadership and the man's misguided visions.
Annointed and ordained ministers, pastors and true disciples of Jesus Christ cannot behave just like ordinary people of the world and condone or worst cover-up the wrongful deeds committed by the leaders of Calvary Church.
Finally, the Good Samaritan parable comes to mind. Let us not conveniently ignore the man who had suffered hurt and pain. Be the Good Samaritan.
If we blindly "obey" the notion propagated by Kelvin & Timothy, we may well be transfered back to the dark ages whereby the church can do no wrong and any form of critics of the church will be deemed heretical.
My simple questions to both Kelvin & Timothy - Do you believe PG is not doing anything worng? Do you believe PG & Family are clean? Do you believe TTG are just a bunch of liars and agent provacateur???
If your answer is YES, then we have nothing more to say.
On the other hand, if your answer is NO or "conditional", that's mean you have doubts of PG's credibility as well. And if this is the case, isn't it imperative and fundamental upon us Christians to voice out the truth?
Looking forward to your reply.
As for Bro Vijay, Thank you very much for your clarifications. My sincere apology if I have offended you in my remarks.
Shalom - PLim
Bro Timothy,we can simply walk away silently n faithfully attend other church without doing anything. If it's the way u want to see 'no quarrel' in CC. But what about those new believers? Those who blindly follow? Well, i chosen to attend other church silently, i lost my friends in church, laugher. What makes me come back n show my concern on CC thru CT is quite interesting, n it doesnt look like i'm back-firing pg n ldr in CC. I belief not only me, there's alot of ppll like me, we walk away silently, thinking it was my own problem, i might has a shallow eye. But then i notice there's more ppl like me than i could imagine after checked into CT blog. Who's the common factor??pg, or ppl who's leaving CC?
To the respective replies from the various Brothers & Sisters,
I believed that our replies reflect what we feeling. I am not in any position to judge anybody... including Ps. Prince. However, it is obvious that there are mismanagement and abuse of authority here... with no sight of any love displayed.
All I am asking us to do is to reflect and consider about our comments and replies. The replies I have received reflects bitterness, hurts, anger... etc. and even to some extend judgement. I was asked to please have faith in our Lord Jesus Christ... my faith in Him is not the issue here. My faith is very much solid. But to somewhat questioned a person's faith would reflect a whole lot about the person asking that question. I have faith in our Lord Jesus, however, the really issue here is still always the same... people.
The church... any church for the matter, belongs to our Lord Jesus. When a church goes through a crisis like this... allow me to ask whose name is then really put to shamed? The pastor/s? The elders/leaders/deacons? The church members? Our Lord Jesus Christ?
Let our Lord Jesus be the jugde over all offenders... allow Him to take over. Let Him also decide over those in the Christians councils in Malaysia if they should have intervene. Let Him be the Lord over all... both the good and the bad. Let us not be like those who are the offenders of our faith community.
And finally, allow me to share this. I... in my own weaknesses in the past have displyed unworthy conduct that reflected no Christ-likeness. Pre-believers made comments on me saying... 'This one call Christian-ah?' Whose name did I put to shamed? Whose name did I allow to be mocked? Kelvin's name? I don't really think so.
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin
Kelvin,
Your reply speaks in volume about yourself. You are not even practising the 3Rs you advocated. You choose to continue to stonewalled and avoid answering simple, straightforward layman questions. Instead you choose to hide behind a litany of rhetorics and labelled other's comments and bitter and words of anger.
You happily said that "The Church Belongs to God" but at the same time when the Church is blatantly being mismanaged, are you suggesting members of the congregation to keep quiet and let God fix His own problem?
I believe Christian will be reduced to nothing but a bunch of blind billygoats if you advice were to be heeded. I agree that when a church is in crisis, it is shameful BUT if the predator (in this case PG himself) is shameless, it will be much more "shameful" to the entire congregations and christendom if members were to remain silent, apathy and oblivious to the obvious.
Anyway, I thank CT for publishing my comments and I believe I have said enough. If CC members wish to continue to listen to Kelvin & Timothy, I have to respect their rights and it shouldn't make me wonder how CC get itself into such mess and shame today.
The blind followers clearly demonstrated what Apostle Paul said about people who "HEAR but never LISTEN"; and people who "LOOK but never SEE"
This shall be the last time I commented on this issue. Shalom & God bless.
PLim
Brother Kelvin
We are not NOT having FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. PLEASE DO NOT SIDE TRACK. You mean we CANT QUESTIONS WHERE THE MONIES GOES AND JUST GIVE?????
WE ARE JUST DOING ACCORDING TO YOUR 3Rs...REAL, REALISTIC & RELEVANT.
To all those who have chosen to be "neutral" towards the CC saga, kindly ponder on the following words from a great man & do reconsider your stand .......
"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." (Desmond Tutu)
Just in case you are wondering who is the oppressor in this long drawn CC saga, you need to ask yourself some searching questions .....
1. Who declared at the CC Leaders' meeting on 1st March 2008 that "what you gave to Missions is NOT for you to question"?
2. At the 28th March 2008 AGM, who insisted on taking a vote on whether the Extended Ministries Accounts should be given to the CC members? This was despite the out-going CC auditor's advice that his Technical Director (at his public accounting firm) has stated that "the Extended Ministries Accounts MUST be given to the CC members" which is in line with the CC Constitution which says that "all income & expenditure MUST be accounted for & presented to the CC members at AGMs.
3. Who has moved RM 1.9 millions from CC's coffers to his personal ministry from 2002 to 2007 without the consent of the CC members? No wonder he had declared, on 1st March 2008, that "what you gave to Missions is NOT for you to question" because he was probably afraid that his "moving" of the funds would be exposed.
4. Who has refused to allow CC members to vote on validly tabled resolutions at the recent EGMs & AGM despite the CC Constitution stating that "full power is vested in CC members siting at an EGM &/or AGM"?
5. Who has been refusing to meet to resolve matters (the Christian way)? Despite a prominent tycoon & the General Superintendent of the AOG Council having agreed the meeting date with him a couple of weeks earlier, he called off the meeting at the last minute. Who was he?
There are many many more questions that one can ask but .......
Edmond Burke said this .... "The only thing for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing".
Hitler & other oppressors had their ways as the good men at the respective nations did nothing. Do you choose to do nothing or would you choose to do something so that evil can be brought to it's knees?
Don't pass the buck to God, remember Mordecai's words "you were put in this place for such a time as this".
Don't say you can't do anything, just go & speak to your pastors & get them to speak to their national leaders; also do continue to pray that God will move them to do something NOW.
Enough is enough.
Dear PLim & Anonymous at 5.40pm,
It is obvious from your replies that the both of you are unhappy with my answers. However, please kindly do read my comment and reply carefully. I am not suggesting anything outside of what I have said. If thus far the steps and measures of man have failed to bring this grieving saga in our once beloved church to an end... then let us take into serious consideration of our actions. If our actions leaves opened doors for our common adversary to continue work his evil desires over the church and His people... than let us be spiritually quick and vigilant to his demonic attacks.
My encouragement is to not allow PG's actions, behavior... etc. to dictated and determine our emotions. He will have to give an account for his doings... no doubt about. He will not escape it.
Please... for months people have been asking for spiritual encouragement, edification... etc. I am just hoping that this is what I am able to bring. My desire is that we will be able to try to take a different perspective. I am not and will not suggest to do anything blindly or follow blindly, but rather for all of us to try to see things differently.
PLim, you must be very hurt and to some extent very angry, and I will not try to pretend that I know how you feel. So, I do have very much to say... but I will say this, you are not a blind billygoat to heed anybody's advise. Will be praying for you and for all.
3Rs... Real, Realistic & Relevant!
Kelvin
My apologies again ps Kelvin for correcting you but I must do so again.
Firstly, when I said "have faith in God" I do not mean you have no faith. No matter what the issue is, God will not allow anyone in any circumstance to tarnish His matchless Name. If God is not allowing the CC saga to turn to a circus act as you described, He would hav done something. What I mean is we all, not just you alone need to know that God has the final say in everything that happens - Good or Bad - and we all need to know this.
2ndly, you have not answered ny question directly but assume that just becoz we ask questions, we are bitter and angry ... all the negative description. I always see the TTG people in church and on the streets. I have not seen any of them talk without a smile on the faces. In fact most of the time, they are happily chatting with any one of us. You will know this if you are in KL and have seen them before. Even PG admitted himself during the last AGM. You can listen to the recording. PG said that the two brothers walked away with a smile therefore signifying agreement. Even when replying, Bro Robert was calm and objective.
I am not trying to be sarcastic here, but seriously, just from a few sentences you read over here from different ones and you conclude we are bitter, angry etc etc. Your judgement is very wrong.
Anyway Pastor, no offense intended but really we do not need any more lecture on how to be a good Christian. PG and Co have drummed it enough on all of us here in KL. We need someone who can come up with solutions.
It is a good thing that there is CT here that allows us to express ourselves but Pastor do be fair to all. What you have put out here for all to read, I hope you will also find a way to say to PG, his deacons and pastors in Calvary Church.
Thank you & God bless.
We don't need pastors to come here to advise us what to think and how to behave. They are not here in the CC saga so they are not in position to understand the real situation.
Besides we are wondering why is the pastoral fraternity not addressing the real issue: one of their kind is not behaving in a manner befitting the Lord's calling and expectations?
In fact the misbehaving pastor should be disciplined but here their brotherhood are crying foul about the sheep, who are speaking out the truth and asking for things to be put right.
Don't you see pastors who are talking so much here, labelling the "victims" as being angry and themselves blindly closing an eye to the wrongs of PG, are making a joke of themselves? What about being realistic and relevant?
What these "lecturing pastors" are doing here is tantamount to justifying and condoning the wrongs of your fraternity members...isn't that a shame to the calling?
Dear Pastor Kelvin,
I noted that the angle you are coming from is that we should 'Love our enemies/sinners'.
Jesus loved His enemies but when moneychangers made the temple a trading house, He threw out the money changers and overturned their tables! We are to discern when to love and when to stand against unrighteousness acts!
If God is allowing the Courts to intervene, can we not say that it is His plan? Of course, if this failed to go any further, it is also God's will. Well, in whatever the situation it may be, God is ALWAYS in control. God also is interested that His name shall not be tarnished or mocked and He does not need our help in this area at all. The disciples in Luke 19 were told by the pharisees to keep quiet and not to praise Jesus but Jesus says if they keep quiet, even the stones cry out.
While we exercise Agape Love, we are also to be indignant to unlawful acts!
GB
Beloved Brothers & Sisters in Christ,
Ps. Kelvin here. I was a member of Calvary Church KL before in obedience moving down to JB. I was an active member participating in 'The Singing Christmas Tree' and other various presentations organized by the church. I was a Royal Rangers and for a short period of time a commander for the Pioneers... and etc.
I am not in any way trying to lecture anyone of you on how to behave or whatsoever. However, I am asking us to consider our present actions. Please do read my comments carefully and you will see that I do not agree with the present church leadership's behaviour as it has caused a huge amount of grief among the members of the church... our 'FAITH COMMUNITY'.
What I am expressing is my own grief that our once beloved church has come to this sorry position. It grieves my heart. I may have left the church almost ten years ago, but it was in this church that I gave my heart to our Lord Jesus Christ and received Him as my personal Lord and Savior. I grew-up in Calvary and Calvary played a vital role in my life and spiritual upbring... it was in this church that I experienced and encounter Jesus.
My desire is that this saga comes to a closure. If Ps. Prince and the other pastors and deacons will not repent... humbly ask all of you to allow yourselves to submit to the Lord's leading.
I do not offer lectures, but I do hope that I offer, if possible, some form of re-considerations on our part.
Ps. Prince, the pastors and deacons may never-ever repent... let us be prepared for the worst.
Ps Kelvin Lim,
Please do not be offended, but your last post (5.08pm) is contradictory and makes little sense. You agree that PG, the pastors and deacons “may never-ever repent”, but yet you suggest that “there should be some form of re-consideration on our part”. Please provide examples of what these “forms of re-consideration” could possibly be. Do not just make comments and leave things hanging; give suggestions as well.
You mentioned that we should “humbly allow ourselves to submit to the Lord's leading”. Have you considered, Ps Kelvin, that perhaps the concerned members and the TTG are already ”humbly allowing themselves to submit to the Lord's leading”, which then resulted in all that have taken place and leading to the class action?
I think your problem is that you are still not sufficiently realistic (R2 of your 3Rs). Perhaps you still cannot see that all other alternatives have already been exhausted. Perhaps you have not reached the state of realisation that there is no other way (aside from just doing nothing, which is even worst).
If you do not have anything extra or beneficial to say I would recommend that you stop posting on this blog for the time being. It does nothing but create confusion. I simply do not get your angle, if you know what I mean. This is the way I feel when I read you posting and I am sure there are others who feel the same as I do. However, as soon as you are enlightened, please by all means resume your posting so that we can all be encouraged by what you say, instead of being more confused.
Respectfully yours, J
Dear Bro PLim
Not offended brother!
I wish more Christians were open to healthy debate and able to share and listen to the views of others. This is the only way to improve our communication of spiritual truth and mature spiritually.
Paul wrote his letters to exhort and at times even rebuke but all done in brotherly/sisterly love for the sake of the Kingdom.
Our shared objective is the liberation of Calvary Church from rogue leaders. WE ARE ON TRACK!
Vijay
STAY FOCUSSED ON MAIN ISSUES
It is absolutely crucial, in fact vital for TTG and we all, its supporters to steadfastly stay focussed on the main issues affecting our beloved CC, while fervently praying for God's Grace, Mercy and Blessings in our search for His Enriching Truth.
Let us not in any way way be easily distracted by certain heavily biased blog comments from Kelvin Lim, Timothy Sng or any others. We should not allow their ill logic, unreasonable attitude or unbiblical thinking affect us at all. Let us not be caught up in this unnecessary dialogue exercise with them. We shall not allow ourselves to fall into their traps.
It matters not to us whatever corrupted ideas or messages they choose to subscribe to. We are NOT a bit affected at all by their defeatist mental frequencies!
Let us stay constantly united, unified in spirit, in battling the evil forces within CC. Let us NOT be influenced by the lies that PG is invincible, that his fall can never happen, that this sinful mere mortal man can continue to enslave CC through his dictatorial feudalistic rule.
Let us pray daily that this bondage over certain members of CC leaders and congregation is being broken and destroyed, as testimony of God's glorious victory over the Evil one, Satan. Let the spirit of despair depart from CC, to be replaced by a refreshing spirit of
Hope, in Almighty God and his Goodnesss.
Let the CC sinful leaders tremble in fear of tribulation from the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
Dear Bro Kevin,
With all due respects to you ,I do believe that you have a reconciling heart ..a heart that seeks forgiveness at Calvary church. You have sentimental attachments to Calvary Church and I respect that as you have encountered the Lord and grew and matured there. I can understand how you feel but I must caution you that you also need to think critically and look at what had happened to the church.
You must not allow your sentimental attachment to the church to cloud your judgment and see the reality of what has happened to Calvary church. You are now a matured Christian and you must exercise matured biblical thinking and use them to see the reality of Calvary church today. You have in your own statements agreed or to a certain extent acknowledge that the senior Pastor and his present deacons have fallen short in their walk with the lord. The positions that these people hold are position of authority and they must be men and women who walk with the Lord with humility. As they have not been doing that than they must be resign and let others who are obedient to the Lord take over their position as this is the house of the Lord. You do realize that they refuse to do that and as such as a matured Christian you have to the right thing that the Lord requires of you to do and that is to remove them and not continue to encourage them to stay on.
There are many Christians like you who to a certain extent blindly follow leaderships in churches who believe that they are anointed and can do no wrong and are not seduced into having worldly ambition. God have given you a mind to think and to think logically and biblically and that you must do with a clear conscious. The bible is very simple in many things and it is people who try and make and add things to make it difficult. What is black remains black and does not become grey. It is MAN that says it is grey using twisted and convincing words and that is what the senior pastor and his deacons have done.
So Bro Kevin I would suggest that you have some time to yourself away from the hustle and bustle and clear your mind of all things and simply go back to the BASICS of the teachings of the Lord and I can confidently say that you will come to the real TRUTH and God will enlighten you.
WE shall continue to pray and believe God to work miracles in our midst to rid CC leaders and their deceitful and corrupt ways.
God is seated on the throne and we certainly will not feel discouraged or negative even when humanly speaking there seems to be little progress presently.
God hears our prayers for truth and righteouesness to be restored in Calvary Church.
Eventhough PG, BOD and Associate pastors may try to deny the true circumstances in CC BUT in the end their sins will catch up on them and the truth shall prevail.
WE shall remain faithful to God and stay positive, even when we have to face trials and difficulties in the church and live among the people whom we used to love to worship together with.
I believe God is delaying judgment for a purpose. He is probably letting the Deacons and Associate Pastors have an opportunity to repent and stop grieving the Holy Spirit.
If any of the Deacons or Associate Pastors is reading this, take heed. You have been spoken to by the concerned members and the TTG, and are fully aware that you are to serve God and not man. If you choose not to repent but continue hurting CC members, remember you have to bear responsibility for your own actions and cannot plead ignorance because you have been made fully aware. When the time comes, pleading on the excuse that you have been misled or that you have no choice but to follow the so-called “spiritual leader’s “ instructions, simply will not cut it. And time is running out…
As for PG and family, we can only pray for them. Our role is to let the truth be known, take the steps as prompted by the Holy Spirit and leave the rest to God.
This is an article in "Today God is First":
Passing the Test
When God anoints a person, a pattern of testing appears to take place at specific times in the leader's life. God often takes each leader through four major tests to determine if that person will achieve God's ultimate call on his or her life. The person's response to these tests is the deciding factor in whether they can advance to the next level of responsibility in God's Kingdom.
Control - Control is one of the first tests. Saul spent most of his time as king trying to prevent others from getting what he had. Saul never got to the place with God in which he was a grateful recipient of God's goodness to him. Saul was a religious controller. This control led to disobedience and ultimately being rejected by God because Saul no longer was a vessel God could use.
Bitterness - Every major character in the Bible was hurt by another person at one time or another. Jesus was hurt deeply when Judas, a trusted follower, betrayed Him. Despite knowing this was going to happen, Jesus responded by washing Judas' feet. Every anointed leader will have a Judas experience at one time or another. God watches us to see how we will respond to this test. Will we take up an offense? Will we retaliate? It is one of the most difficult tests to pass.
Power - Power is the opposite of servanthood. Jesus had all authority in Heaven and earth, so satan tempted Jesus at the top of the mountain to use His power to remove Himself from a difficult circumstance. How will we use the power and influence God has entrusted to use? Do we seek to gain more power? There is a common phrase in the investment community, "He who has the gold rules." Jesus modeled the opposite. He was the ultimate servant leader.
Greed - This is a difficult one. Money has the ability to have great influence for either good or bad. When it is a focus in our life, it becomes a tool of destruction. When it is a by-product, it can become a great blessing. Many leaders started out well - only to be derailed once prosperity became a part of their life. There are thousands who can blossom spiritually in adversity; only a few can thrive spiritually under prosperity.
As leaders, we must be aware when we are being tested. You can be confident that each one of these tests will be thrown your way if God calls you for His purpose. Will you pass these tests? Ask for God's grace today to walk through these tests victoriously.
1st thing 1st...have any one do any aydit on calavary convention centre and a title search . what about the loans agreement, spa ?
To genesispassion,
This question you asked have been addressed by ppl here in calvary today many times. You will have to log in to the church website to read their report - Calvary Connect, in one last year's issue.
Of course, you may not get the answer you asking. The report is more like their testimony on "God's providence" for the ccc, not a report to what is actually happening.
So for the real answer, you must go ask Jim Guneratnam, the man in charge but then he won't be able to answer you. So go ask the project man himself, Han JK but then, he will have no authority to tell you anything more because no clearance from the top man himself, PG.
So friend, when you get the real answer to your question, please let us know also because we too want to know the truth. We have been asking the same questions since the beginning of this saga, asked at EGMs, asked at AGMs and until now, what we hear from those in charge are not the same as what we see at the ccc site.
Oh to answer your question on " any audit on calvary convention centre". Friend only the appointed church auditors have the authority to do audit and look at the docs for ccc project. Come to think of it, no report have been given by any auditors on ccc. You will have to ask Edward R, the church treasurer about this.
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