1. The favour of God has been on Calvary Church…..I’m experiencing growth.
(Comment: Presumably he meant the church is experiencing growth but everyone in Calvary Church and many in the Christian community in Malaysia know that Calvary is not growing. The attendance has dropped much from the peak of more than 3,000 to less than 2,000 now since the church crisis started. Their Ampang satellite church has closed down since early this year and attendance at the main Damansara church continue to drop, so much so that they have resorted to closing the rear portion of the sanctuary and spacing out the pews.)
2. I’m seeing God do some very marvelous things in Malaysia.
(Comment: This is admittedly true. Other than Calvary Church, God is certainly moving among the churches in this land. Many are experiencing tremendous growth both numerically and spiritually.)
3. God has confirmed through prophesies and as visitors come, they have confirmed those prophesies.
(Comment: He failed to mention that these prophesies regarding Calvary were given some 15 to 20 years ago and they were in respect of another site in Sri Hartamas which never materialized. PG’s vision and those prophesies came to naught.)
4. They (presumably he meant invited preachers) have described Calvary Church as a fountain-head church.
(Comment: It was Rev Dick Eastman who said this about Calvary about 20 years ago. Back then, Calvary indeed was a growing church. Back then, PG was still a reasonably good shepherd who had not succumbed to pride, ambition and living a lavish lifestyle. Back then, he wasn’t a Datuk or a Tan Sri. Today, he is not the same person and today he cannot continue to declare or imply that Calvary is a fountain-head church as it is untruthful.)
5. To look for a piece of land between 4 to 5 acres in the city was almost an impossible task but when we put our faith and trust in God, God is able to do the impossible.
(Comment: PG made the above statements to imply that the hand of God was on the search for the CCC land. In so doing, he gave the impression that the CCC land is in the city of Kuala Lumpur, which is obviously untrue. The CCC land in Bukit Jalil may be on the fringe of the Federal Territory but it is certainly not in the city of Kuala Lumpur.)
6. God is faithful and men are liars.
(Comment: This is about the most honest statement that he has made and it’s ironical that he said this after telling half-truths and lies.)
Click on the sound clip to listen:
The following biodata on PG was extracted from the conference website : World Assemblies of God Celebrations
Prince Guneratnam
Rev.Tan Sri Datuk (Dr) Prince Guneratnam, Founder & President of Calvary International Ministries, is recognized as an outstanding Christian leader worldwide. Since 1966 he has been in the ministry and has served as the senior pastor of Calvary Church in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. He is the vice chairman of WAGF, the secretary of the Pentecostal World Fellowship and general superintendent - emeritus of the Assemblies of God, Malaysia.
In spite of Calvary International Ministries (CIM), having been de-registered by NECF, PG continues to promote CIM internationally. When he spoke at a Christian conference in Singapore last year, he was still introduced as the CIM Founder and President. Albeit CIM’s de-registration in Malaysia, it still remains alive and kicking outside the country, probably as an unregistered entity.
Click here to read : CIM to be de-registered
Although CIM’s bank accounts in Malaysia have been closed as a result of the de-registration, its bank accounts in the USA and Singapore probably remains active. The offshore banks would not know of its legal status unless they are informed.
It is therefore, not inconceivable, that his love offerings from his international preaching engagements continue to be banked into CIM’s offshore accounts. The obvious danger is that contributions to the CCC Building fund from unsuspecting overseas churches and donors may be channeled to CIM as CIM carries the “Calvary” name.
Although PG has always represented and promoted CIM in all his introduction biodata in conferences, he has never declared in printed and electronic media like the above that CIM is his personal ministry. Who will then know that CIM has no linkage whatsoever to Calvary Church? Besides carrying the “Calvary” name, remember it also shares the same address as Calvary Church.
Todate, other than Pastor Robert Lim’s church and Pastor Cho-Yonggi’s church and 1 or 2 small churches, no other churches or Christian organizations outside Malaysia have made any contribution towards the CCC Building Fund in spite of Calvary Church, having previously, supported countless other churches worldwide in their building programmes and in spite of PG constantly sharing his vision and burden wherever he preaches. This fact has always puzzled the church members.
47 comments:
"....Although CIM’s bank accounts in Malaysia have been closed as a result of the de-registration, its bank accounts in the USA and Singapore probably remains active. The offshore banks would not know of its legal status unless they are informed...."
Has PG Breached USA Banking Laws and Singapore Banking Laws ? Has separate Police reports been made in US and Singapore yet ?
Fr CT2 @ May 6, 2011 10:57 AM
Perhaps NECF should not tip toe around this issue by working behind the scenes but come out openly in the interest of accountability in the greater body of Christ.
I believe what has been exposed is only the tip of the ice berg.
Fr CT2 @ May 6, 2011 12:33 PM
CC is indeed a fountain head church. The faithful who were sacked and others who chose to move on to other churches have been a real blessing to their new home churches. Those who served faithfully for years in Calvary are continuing to serve in their new congregations. Those who never served in Calvary have started to serve in the new more nurturing environment. One ex-Calvarite who was just a pew warmer is now involved in missions and have been on two foreign missions trips already. Another together with his wife is involved in the marriage ministry. One pastor said that the people who migrated from CC are really good people; willing, enthusiastic, and committed. He even said that Calvary’s loss is his gain. God had allowed the crisis to happen to CC so that the streams of living water can flow out from CC to bless the other churches. For too long CC had been an inward looking church. Even when PG was chairman of NECF he never promoted or participated in NECF national projects. Neither was he willing to work with other churches on joint projects. It was always I, me and mine.
Just go to the CalvaryMen website at http://calvarymen-events.blogspot.com to see the fountain head effect. These men are continuing to bind together in worship and fellowship although they are now attending different churches, as many as six different churches. The bond is so strong that a couple of these men are actually still in CC. Church affiliation is never an issue. Our individual stand on the CC saga never came between us as brothers in Christ. These are Kingdom men with true Kingdom mindset. This fountain head effect may not be what PG has in mind but it is a real blessing to the Kingdom.
The people hurt most by what happened in CC were the big givers. They felt deceived and cheated. They are still giving but in other churches and to other ministries. That is why PG is fretting that money is not coming in for his self-glory project, the CCC.
Fr CT2 @ May 6, 2011 4:23 PM
Dear Anonymous @ May 6,2011 (4.23 pm)
What you said made a lot of sense and found it really uplifting and edifying. I am a testimony of an ex Calvarite ( among the 400 that was sacked) and now worshiping at another non-AOG chhurch. I found my place in the new fellowship and enjoyed the dynamic worship & Spirit-filled services. Yes, I used to give to CCC ( 6 figures) and tithe too but it was all in vain. I heard from a brother that that exCalvarites are truly welcome in some of the new "home" and one non-AOG pastor even request to send more ex Calvarites to their fellowship or cell groups.
Fr CT2 @ May 6, 2011 5:32 PM
God is faithful and men are liars.
Some are better at it than others. Some can do it without blinking their eyes. Others are sheepish when they lie. Some can lie, keep a straight face and pretend they never said it. Others can lie and then rationalize it out such that it is no longer a lie. Yet the one who takes the cake is the one who can lie and when exposed by another can turn around and accuse the one who exposed him as the liar.
Who lied about the CCC project from the very beginning? Talk to those who were previously on various CCC sub-committees and subsequently left those committees and some even left the church. Talk to them personally and they will tell you who lied.
Who was removed from NECF membership when NECF discovered that their membership application was not truthful? Who did the AOG General Council said misrepresented (lied) in CIM’s application for NECF membership? Ask NECF and the AOG General Council who lied.
Fr CT2 @ May 6, 2011 11:04 PM
PG will be able to continue to hoodwink the world because very few outside Malaysia is aware of his conduct or some who knows choose to be in a state of denial e.g. Guynes who chaired the EGM and condones freemasonry and RL who had supposedly gave him and PG2 foreign marque cars. It is unbelievable that these two well-known pastors does not have any knowledge of the saga in CC.
TTG must bring the awareness to more people especially those related to the Christian community such as postings on foreign blogs, leaflets, via e-mail addresses or even place ads in newspapers worded tactfully. The PWC is in 2013 and actions is to be taken to bring awareness to as many participants as possible at the conference.
The cracks are showing. PG uses RL as a high-powered salesman for CCC and committed US$10,000 for a foundation related to Guynes. Remember Guynes received US$10,000 for chairing the EGM. So, what difference does it make to give the money to a foundation or as a personal offering.
Many have commented that messages are often dependent on how the pastor interprets the scripture. Guynes preached a mustard seed message on faith and did not mention an iota about money. While CC had used the mustard seed as the theme in one of the past years fund-raising for CCC.
I wonder what will be the theme for this 2011. Don't worry, PG will come out with an impressive theme with a distorted interpretation.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 12:14 AM
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Lets not “dog bite dog bone” here. I believe “Save Calvary Now” is one of the true concern members.
Personally, I believe the negotiation with NECF does not solve the problem even if PG attend, how much less when we know PG will not attend. Does anyone still believe that CC can be a fountain head church with PG as senior pastor? It is clear that CC need more than just a transparent system. These few years clearly show that it is not the system that is lacking. PG is not lack of talent, he is wicked himself. No point having a good system but a wicked leader, as such leaders will twist the good system again. CC is not a company, it is a church (concern spiritual) and we need not only transparency in the system but also truth in the inner being…in the leaders themselves. Thus the attempt to get NECF and workout peaceful agreement is clearly not a solution. The TTG should tell what they are doing in CT to get opinion, not wasting time on solution that is not solution. Same as the court case. PG has to resign. There is no other way.
And smile? How you can smile when thousand stumbled at the saga? Please be aware that it is not TTG versus PG here. Hearts are broken, faith stumbled, family broken, brothers separated, Christianity scorned among unbelievers, ministry neglected and many more. How can you smile as though as you win something? Why you treat the issue as it is not urgent? Do you not sense God’s heart concerning the matter? If TTG leaders merely see the saga as battle between them and PG, it is great fall short and wrong perspective. No wonder they can smile like the issue is not serious, and linger in own sweet time.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 12:57 AM
But I tell you, many are hurt over the issue. They ask why you all don’t protest? Why PG is still holding the position? Why no actions seen? Even the Christians outside CC concern and pray in urgency over the matter, hoping that PG would resign and go and restoration is quickly brought back to CC; and you all smile? Brothers, you have wrong perspective. We need to see the issue not as personal battle between the 7 TTGs against PG and deacons; but as a more global and spiritual battle. It is the Lord doing house keeping here. Do you not see elsewhere happen similar situation? Do you ask other Christians? How do I know? I ask them and they tell me. There is a AOG pastor preaching demanding a private jet, claiming for mission work, and God send a businessmen to his church and he preach against such idea. The pastor no longer preach jet anymore. There was a pastor of small church who preach God want him to build large building of church, but God raise young people in his church to tell him that he need to focus on ministry (minister unto other with God’s word) and not dreaming for selfish fame. The pastor refuse to listen, and the congregation simply protest and went off. The pastor ask a pastor of a large church to judge the congregation, but a young men write an email to that pastor with such a godly integrity and cannot be denied.
You see, many similar cases happen around AOG churches. The people is rising with godly awareness, and these happen few years before even CT exist, PG’s sin expose, CCC announced or any of CC’s saga. You think CT is pioneer to such awareness? You are boasting, and talk like PG. The lack of eagerness seen in you gives a hint that you are fighting the right battle with the wrong perspective.
And what have been achieved? AOG escape, courtcase failed to be open witness, AGM 2010 held, PG still stand highly honored within AOG, people still being deceived, CCC continue, ministry still neglected etc. Don’t be complacent like king Jehoash, who merely strike the ground with arrows three times and then stopped (2 Kings 13:18). Do you not know what the supporters of PG is saying? TTG is quiet because they are subdued by the prayers of the Datin. They believe God bound the hand and mouth of TTG so much so that they could only confine their word in CT. If we wait merely for the courtcase, then we are foolish indeed. We can give out leaflet, make T-shirt, make power point and distribute via email, write to churches for prayer, tell the guest speaker who come to preach in CC about PG’s corruption, tell the African brothers in CC about the issue etc. It is not we who should be shamed, it is PG who should be ashamed for his corruption. He should be ashamed of still asking for money. Bring greater awareness!!
“Save Calvary Now” is right. He or she must have felt the same hurt others are feeling and thus he/she know the need of urgency. I do not know “Save Calvary Now”, the 7 TTGS or anyone, but I believe every concern Christians express the same feeling and perspective I have. All my friends from other churches sense the need of urgency too. I am a happy funny person, but everytime I walk to CC, I felt the sense that we have failed to change the situation by doing too little. In fact, many times when it is announced to shake hand and smile to your neighbor, I felt I neglected the hurt and stumbled in my lack of action. Lord, you know the pain of those in hurt and you concern. Forgive us for our idleness and our happy go lucky attitude that fail to recognize the urgency of the matter.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 12:57 AM
PG will continue to use Calvary International Ministries (CIM) because it is beneficial to his personal interest.
If you do a google search, you will see that there are many bodies carrying this name. For example,
Calvary International Ministries (Birmngham),
Calvary International (Manchester),
Calvary International Ministries (Abu Dhabi)
and others.
So, wherever and whenever he speaks of CIM, many in the audience will possibly think of the CIM that they know of and may not be aware that it is PG's personal CIM. So, they give, little knowing that it will end up in his personal ministry. There you go again - another case of hoodwinking the world.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 12:46 PM
RSPONSE TO
"One ex-Calvarite who was just a pew warmer is now involved in missions and have been on two foreign missions trips already. Another together with his wife is involved in the marriage ministry."
There are many giftings among Gods people but some churches will not allow these gifted people any place in the church as they may be a threat to the leadership.CC has always disapproved its members from going to seminars conducted by other churches although Godly people were in town.The notion that CC is an inward looking church is not true- IT IS A VERY VERY INWARD LOOKING CHURCH. The reason is obvious- if members go to other churches-they spend money there- and CC does not like that.The money trait has been there all along - but they will never admit it.The church is not an all embracing BODY-you got to be a somebody before you can enter the inner circle-even the 10M dollar home is just a facade-and all the AP pastors are privy to it- they just tag along- we cant blame them- after all- their bread and butter comes from church-where else can they go and what can they do?The Associate Pastors should go home and think through these issues seriously.God allows U- Turns.Pas's SK, Richard Yun,Timothy and that forever nice but lost pastor within CC-Rev Jerry Chow-do you really think that you are facing what Noah faced?
TOTT- TAK MASUK AKAL- SUDAH MURTAD KOT??!!
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 1:38 PM
referring to
"Its a great deal- just preach 4 times and the rest of the time I get to hang around the nearby foodstalls chit chatting and call it as ministry and and guess what.....we get paid$$$for it!!!!I am seriously thinking about going full time now.
April 27, 2011 10:14 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The above description fits our Pastor very well.I have sent my children to another independant church- as my wife and i felt he was not a good influence on the younger people. We have never seen him reading a book or going to BCM library to do research. He just hangs around appearing to be working- but everyone knows he is just a plain lazy man with absolutely no drive.Sigh.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 1:48 PM
Addressing Anonymous May 7, 2011 12:57 AM and Anonymous May 7, 2011 12:57 AM (whom we believe are the same person)
We appreciate you sharing your feelings and opinions here. Like many others, who have also posted their opinions here, it remains as opinions of individuals until someone feel led by God to act on it. This morning, a devotional thought shared by the FCCI carried a most appropriate title, “...Responding to the Real God” expresses exactly the spirit behind the TTG brothers and sisters as they carry on their pursuit for TTG in Calvary Church.
The TTG cause is NOT a personal battle between church members and the Senior Pastor. It is God’s battle and anyone associated with the TTG cause have done what each individual have felt God calling them to do and always in God’s timing. People from all walks of life have contributed to the TTG cause as they felt led to do a certain task and once completed, they move on, each responding to the real God of their lives. Every one who has been involved in the TTG cause openly have felt the peace of God and the favour of God is upon them and that is why they carry the joy of God or a smile with them.
The TTG cause is not a task just for the 7 Plaintiffs or the 400 odd axed members. If anyone feels led by God to do something more, then pray to God for peace and assurance from Him and then go ahead, just as the TTG brothers and sisters have done. They never consulted any man but they go to God in prayer and step by step move on to do what they feel is God’s leading for them. CT is here to report what has been done as and when we have news on new developments made.
So CT again reiterate our stand on publishing “advertisement campaigns” by individuals here. We cannot endorse an effort if we do not know what their Real Cause is.
Now do not be anxious of what PG’s supporters are saying. If they are comforted by the prayers of the Datin, then so be it. The voice of TTG and CT will be heard by those whom God wants them to hear and no one’s prayer can stop it. Remember do not underestimate the power of so-called silence when doing God’s bidding.
Dear Anonymous, our advise to you if you feel “hurt and stumbled” each time you enter CC is to pray before each service that God will fill your heart with joy and peace. Then sing a song of praise to worship God for all that He has done for you and for Calvary Church.
Finally, all glory is given to God for He alone is the Real leader of the TTG cause and the Real administrator of Calvary Today Blog. God has designed and led people through this whole saga such that when it finally comes to a close, no human person can claim glory for himself because the TTG cause is not an effort of one individual but the effort of Concerned Members whom God has called and brought together to serve as individual parts of one body in the Kingdom of God.
Journey to Jerusalem 2011
11 days/8 nights (Jerusalem/Jordan)
Package price :
RM8,990/- nett per person (Economy Class air-ticket)
RM15,300/- nett per person (Business Class air-ticket)
Please make deposit payments by cheque payable to Calvary Convention Centre Building Fund.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 3:27 PM
As Malaysians are we allowed to visit Israel? It is clearly stated in our passport that we are forbidden to visit Israel. Are we breaking the law and knowing our Malaysian government is not sympathetic to Israel and the holy land? I do not want our fellow Calvarites to be hauled up by KDN and be jailed for violating the laws of the land.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 3:51 PM
Special approval can be obtained by the church for christians to go like going for pilgrimage. The question that arises is more on the security issue. No one can guarantee the safety of the members going there. If you question about safety or security then you get questioned about your faith. So it's up to the individuals.
Heard that they are making profit of RM3,000-00 from the economy class per pax and RM5,000-00 for the business class pax.
Fr CT2 @ May 7, 2011 10:43 PM
Referring to Latest CCC fund raising exercise on May 7, 3:27pm and Anonymous May 7, 10:43pm, this is a tactical move by CC to channel whatever profits gained on this tour to CCC directly. There is no hassle and need for accountability with this move. If the profits is to be in the main accounts, it will show up as income for the year and difficult to channel it to CCC. Smart move!
My spouse had been to Jerusalem with a tour company. It was organized and categorized as pilgrimage. The tour group did not enter Isreal directly and enter by the backdoor style through Jordan. Hence their passports did not carry any entry chops into Israel. One can imagine the anxiety regarding safety, security and problems with the entry or the local immigration until the participants were home. And the cost was approximately RM6k.
Fr CT2 @ May 8, 2011 12:51 PM
RESPONSE TO
"Dear Anonymous, our advise to you if you feel “hurt and stumbled” each time you enter CC is to pray before each service that God will fill your heart with joy and peace. Then sing a song of praise to worship God for all that He has done for you and for Calvary Church"
....................................
The above advice, though given in good faith, is not being helpful in the face of real hurts and pains.When injustice is being done- it does little good to go on praying and praising. Its like an accident on the road- no point just praying at the scene- something practical must be done about it. From my own experiences I can assure you that the Church is not known for standing up to justice. You know what is the disease in churches these days?... if I may summarize it in one word- it is called INDIFFERENCE!!!
When Abraham Lincoln mooted the idea of equal rights of the slaves in the USA, it was the Christian up north who started quoting bible verses to justify slavery, after all Abraham had slaves,David and Solomon used them and it was a common feature of the OT.Even the NT exhorts slaves to be obedient to their masters.Using this pretext that slavery was not condemned in the Scriptures- the Christians took up the gun TO DEFEND SLAVERY/.Of course, Abraham Lincoln was a man of strong conviction-and God used him to end slavery but it cost him his life by the hands of religious demons.
Closer at home- some time ago- Singapore made a law that nobody should wear the purdah(veil) in public schools.What a senseless provocation. Of course the church voice was silent as usual- its usual trademark. Why should the church get involved? It concerns a different race, religion and a different country, so why get involved?( If it's a flood in China or Bangladesh - thats a different issue) It was Mr.Karpal Singh - a man outside the faith and church systems who stood up against this Goverment provocation on Muslims there when he said-" There are many Sikh Students wearing turbans and attending classes in Singapores public schools-you mean this law only affects Muslim veils? Someone stood up against the oppressed and it wasn't the church.( How I wish some Pastor had said this- but I know it will never happen!!!)
I am never fooled by church talk.We have nice speeches and even nicer PEOPLE- but in the face of injustice- it usually keeps strangely quiet.During Abrahams time- inviting a black into a white church was unheard of- that is the reason for the birth of "Blacks Only" churches.Thats another reason why Blacks turn to Islam- because one of the teachings of the Quran is that slaves can be bought and released for the Atonement of Sins or the feeding of the hungry and clothing the orphans!!! The old generation of church leaders with their mindset will never change- but God is using the new generation who don't suffer from the same sicknesses of our ancestors. Many times its only after the oldies step aside that the God can step in.
NEVER BE FOOLED BY CHURCH TALK.TOO MANY TIMES ITS JUST RELIGIOUS GARBAGE CAMAFLOUGED AS GOD'S WORD.SOMETIMES THOSE WITHIN THE CHURCH ARE WORSE THAN THOSE OUTSIDE THE CHURCH.
BEHOLD I AM COMING SOON AND MY REWARD IS WITH ME-- REV.
CHEER UP TTG-WE IDENTIFY WITH YOUR CAUSE- DONT FALTER. THE CITADEL WILL FALL SOON.
Fr CT2 @ May 8, 2011 2:31 PM
Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
I am like one of you. Calvary Church was my home church. My children enjoyed CW when they were young. Now they are in college.
It is time to move on and not contiue to be bitter about it, continue to be vengeful. Vengence is mine, says the Lord. Let God deal with it. Let's not try to be God.
Let's not continue to incite hatred. It does no one any good.
Just my humble opinion.
ex-Calvarite.
BOYCOTT EGM
If we are really concerned about the wellbeing and welfare of CC, we should all boycott the upcoming EGM. Mass non attendance by members, especially voting members would deny SP the mandate he needed to authorise increasing financial limits he needed. Non voting membders should also avoid turningup for the EGM. If the overall response by all were so bad, it would be a significant indicator of no confidence of his present leadership.
Let us be united in denying him the right to pilfer CC funds for ulterior purposes or personal gains. Let us all confound his evil plans.
He is so money driven and cash centred. The whole world can see that there is only one item in the agenda - money, more money - purportedly for CCC project, or so they claimed. Who knows the money is really for whom, and for what ?
Meanwhile, there is not a sound about adressing the grievances of CC members who dared to ask questions on CC adminstration and related matters. Deafening silence from SP. Why does SP not address these issues during this EGM ?
Why not ? Why not ? Why not ?
If these major items are deleted from the EGM agenda, let us boycott the EGM, period. Let SP and his stooges look like fools when they see rows upon rows of empty seats. Hopefully they do not have any quorum to pass motion (pun intended).
FrCT2 @ May 10, 2011 12:20 PM
CC - NOT A FOUNTAINHEAD CHURCH
We beg to disagree with comments by anonymous may 6, 2011 4.23 pm. CC is NOT a fountainhead church. CC never was and still is NOT a fountainhead church. Beccause the present leadership misguided the whole congregation, wasting precious time, energy and money on so many failed projects (eg. Sri Hartamas CC project, CCDH Horseshoe expansion program, Calvaryland, CCC). That's why CC, Calvaryland and CCC are in such a terrible mess.
The truth of the matter is the term "fountainhead church" is not even found anywhere in the Bible ! It is a new term conveniently coined by an American pastor ! For special effects in our minds' eyes ! Frankly, how much water can a fountain spurt per second ? Why narrow the scope of our faith ? Why not use the term "Niagara Falls" church ? Anyone who have stood next of below Niagara Falls, experiencing the volume of water coming down ? Simply awesome !
Jokes aside, CC has now degenerated into a satanic temple. That's why we really feel the hurt and pain described by Anonymous May 8, 2011 2.31 pm. We are spiritually dry and drained here in CC. Please pray for CC.
Fr CT2 @ May 10, 2011 12:43 PM
Being an axed Calvarite, am interested to find out the agenda for the EGM.
Anyone in CC care to share?
Reason for asking (even though we are axed) is that we do care for those who are left behind and will like you to keep us informed and maybe in some ways we can advise.
Fr CT2 @ May 10, 2011 2:50 PM
I am only assume BOYCOTT EGM has not read the constitution. Even if no one turns up except PG and the deacons he can still pass the resolution. If after 30 minutes there is not quorum those present can by a 2/3 majority vote decide that a proper quorum is present and go ahead with passing resolutions. This means even if just PG himself is present he can after 30 minutes decide that he is the quorum. You see, in 1985, when all of us thought he could do no wrong he cleverly amended the constitution to give himself almost absolute powers. We trusted him so much that we approved the amendments without reading or understanding the implications. Now he is in absolute control.
Don't boycott but go and vote against the resolution. Instead of greater transparency PG has not given any info on the project since Nam Fatt, the previous main-con, defaulted. How was Nam Fatt settled? Any contingent liability? Are they suing CC or can CC sue them? Who are the two contractors already appointed and what are the contract sums and the contract period? Who is acting as the main contractor? Is there any conflict of interest? You need to know the following: Updated total project cost (they will tell you this for the resolution). Amounts committed but not contracted. Value of work done and amounts paid. Amounts to be committed and contracted. How is the church raising the finances? What properties of the church had been charged for the bank loans? How much of the bank loans have been drawn down? When will the project be completed?
Fr CT2 @ May 10, 2011 5:06 PM
FOUNTAINHEAD CHURCH?? IS CC KNOWN FOR HELPING OUT OTHER CHURCHES??THIS IS SOMETHING NEW TO MY EARS.
SAMY VELOO
Fr CT2 @ May 10, 2011 5:18 PM
BORROWED THIS FROM A BLOG.
Will we learn from Pastor Michael Guglielmucci’s fall?
The Christian newswires are abuzz today, because a big earthquake hit Melbourne with its epicentre down at Planetshakers. Michael Guglielmucci confessed that his battle with terminal cancer has all been a lie. Alun Davies immediately suspended his ministerial credentials.
Now begins a long and painful exercise of self-examination. And I’m not talking about Michael… that goes without saying. I’m talking about Planetshakers and about the AOG. The obvious question is this: How could no-one have known? Not even family! What kind of “system” can promote someone to such a place of influence and yet can fail to enforce a regime of accountability and scrutiny?
The thing about the Christian church in general, and Pentecostalism in particular, is that its history is littered with stories of fallen heroes. And this is not something to speak of lightly. It is very very painful stuff from which people never fully recover. People trust religious leaders like they trust very few other people and when one falls, it leaves a deep and very painful wound that will always leave a scar.
GOD HAS DEALT WITH SIMILAR SITUATIONSBEFORE AND GOD CAN SURELY DELA WITH CC LEADERSHIP.-RAGARDS
Fr CT2 @ May 10, 2011 6:31 PM
ABSOLUTE POWER - REALLY DICTATOR !
Thank you for your information, Anonymous May 10, 2011 5.06 pm.
According to him/her, "even if PG himself is present he can after 30 minutes decide that he is the quorum. What absolute power PG has given himself by manipulating the CC constitution.
OMG God help us !
Does this mean that CC would end up owning nothing and owing everything ? What if he manipulated passing resolution to allow the pledging og out mother church and all other church propotries ? (That is, assuming this is not already done).
Perhaps CC congrregation would end up "homeless" - no church building to go to for worship, when foreclosure happens. Would we end up meeting under the coconut trees or the manggo trees ? (Planter of 573 churchs - Rev. RL's definition of "church".) So sad for CC.
Maybe we should abandon CCC project and adopt Rev. RL's church planting or samll churches.
Fr CT2 @ May 11, 2011 7:20 AM
To "....Perhaps CC congrregation would end up "homeless" - no church building to go to for worship, when foreclosure happens..."
Foreclosure is very REAL indeed ! I wrote much earlier but it was not published as it was deemed BAD NEWS, and not edifying I suppose ? SSR has gone up by 100bps and BLR has goes up by 30 bps to 6.6% which will hike the interest costs for CC Loans ! It will get worse very soon !
Fr CT2 @ May 11, 2011 10:06 AM
COMMENT ON
Jokes aside, CC has now degenerated into a satanic temple.
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Please refrain from describing a gathering of Christians as a satanic temple. That is a bit too extreme.They are still Gods people-although CC has lost Gods favour.Christians who look to CC leadership- especially those who literally grew up there and have strong emotional ties with the leadership- what are they to believe and what are they to do? I feel sorry for the youth as I can imagine their silent agony as they sit through this struggle.SP- produce the accounts book for an independent audit- and clear your name.( There is a serious and manifest doubt about your credibililty)
Fr CT2 @ May 11, 2011 11:13 AM
Many years ago I attended a course held by CC - TOWARDS FINANCIAL FREEDOM moderated my Brother Wong Hong Meng. By the way he is one of 7 plantiffs.
The course taught a lot of us adults that we should not have high gearing, live within our means etc.
By RM200,0000.00 divided by 2000 people will give each person a debt of RM100,000 per pax.
How many of us has that type of money to contribute to CCC. Only PG & family with their 10 over houses in both Kuala Lumpur and USA
can bear this burden.
However, instead of tightening their belts, the whole family can afford to have holiday in Hongkong and most recently some went over the USA to attend Azelia's graduation.
For those attending CC, draw on the wisdom the Lord desires each of us o have, do not contribute anymore to fund their "fun at our expense" - we pay them you know. When companies face financial constraints, many employees pay and benefits are cut, starting from MD downwards.
Now, do we need an Executive Director for CC? Is is because JIM is a Guneratname and must draw good pay?
Questions upon questions......pls be a wise and not blind and dumb sheep - remember PG is a hireling, not a pastor......
Of course he can squander away CC properties etc.....he never paid a single cent to the building of our DH Church - go back to earlier blog written by Jalan Sayor immigrant.
Fr CT2 @ May 11, 2011 6:02 PM
PG is asking members to approve the increase in total cost of CCC project. What is the new limit asked for? Or are they asking for a blank cheque? Members must vote against it.
The existing limit of RM150 million was never properly approved by members. No vote was taken. Members were manipulated to stand up in support of board of deacons and then it was minuted as a vote. There was no record of how many voted for and how many voted against because no vote was taken.
What happened to the so called value engineering that Han JK, the deacon in charge, told members about. Total construction cost was supposed to be reduced from RM150 million to RM120 million. Even if cost of material has gone up by 20% the cost should increase to RM144 million. Sill within the illegally obtained approved limit. So no need to increase beyond RM150 million. This time he will make sure that there is a vote. This will cancel out any future contest that the project was never properly approved by the members.
Fr CT2 @ May 11, 2011 10:10 PM
PG's "BS" REACHING CRESCENDO.. .
Who can bear all this 'Bullshit' from PG!
He is a Liar, Con man, & Deceiver rolled in one.
How's that PG did not even mention he is Senior Pastor of Calvary Church Kuala Lumpur? Three key reasons:
1.PG's name in CC KL STINKS
2. Sr. pastor title is not as 'powerful' and impressive
as FOUNDER & PRESIDENT of Calvary
INTERNATIONAL Ministry
3. $$$Millions goes straight into his PERSONAL
BANK ACCOUNT.
PG's "BS" will not stop until God stops him in his track. Be patient--very, very,very patient to see it come to pass. God's timing is always perfect for full blown effect.
Fr CT2 @ May 12, 2011 12:51 AM
CAUGHT HAND IN THE COOKIE JAR ?
Wow ! Wow ! Wow ! We poor poor sheep ! Another attempt to pull wool over our eyes ! Another desparate attempt to fatten their retirement piggy banks (also known as "assets") of whole family before their services are terminated. What mmarketing package are they going to offer this time outwardly "to rescue CCC" ? We all have no reassurance the money will go into CCC building fund, after all we are NOT allowed to ask where the money goes to, right ? We were specifically warned by their assigned lawyer adressing the congregation, not too long ago. Last round of possibly being caught with hand in the cookie jar ?
Seems that the TOTT (Turn Off The Tap) technic really works so well. Praise God.
Watch out for the spiritual tsunami, "Wolves in sheep skins".
You have it coming. And you can't and shan't escape the wages of your sins.
God will see that justice is done.
Fr CT2 @ May 14, 2011 11:52 AM
COMMENT ON
"PG is asking members to approve the increase in total cost of CCC project. What is the new limit asked for? Or are they asking for a blank cheque? Members must vote against it."
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This whole thing sucks!!!
Fr CT2 @ May 14, 2011 12:54 PM
TOTT WORKS ! VOTE AGAINST RESOLUTION
The previous large volume of water (aka money $$$) must have now turned into a trickle, applying great pressure to PG to suddenly call for this EGM, aimed at empowering him to enjoy more freedom to channel/dispense the money by however, to whoever, for whatevver he so wishes - without the members/public having any right to ask such questions regarding the said money. Simultaneously, presumably the EGM would empower him with added "authorisation" to increase the earlier limit.
Let us continue to deny him of such intentions by TOTT and voting against such resolution. Alternatively boycott EGM.
Fr CT2 @ May 14, 2011 6:58 PM
Calling for an EGM right now is definitely a sign that the $$$ river has become a trickle.I think this man wil have no scruples converting the dumb sheep into debtors- your personal savings account,soft loans, money that you have access to...
On the day I see SP on stage wearing a RM19.90 pants and a RM9.90 shirt( my husband only wears this) we have decided to refrain from giving right now. Something is not right somewhere... there is a lot of asking for money these days.. I think even the worship has become polluted.
Maybe as an example SP should start selling his personal properties and make a sacrificial giving.
PC: can anyone tell us what is Rev.Jerry Chow's status at CC since it is plain now that the Jalan Ampang church has closed down for good? He looks so lost and my son said that now his ministry is "pegang lampu & makan gaji buta saja"
On a personal note - we are greatly saddened to see what is before our eyes- so many empty seats-once it was so vibrant- had to come in early to grab a seat- now we can just stroll in 1/2 an hour late and still find a seat.Rev. Richard Yun should cut down on the dry jokes in his preaching. To us it is a deviation tactic.
A SAD & FUMING CHRISTIAN FAMILY
Fr CT2 @ May 15, 2011 1:12 PM
" ...SP should start selling his personal properties and make a sacrificial giving...
PGs and all Associate Pastors, BOD have NOT SACRIFICED and have NOT SOLD their Bungalows and Double- Storey houses to FUND CCC yet ever since 2008 ?
Do not have GOD's callings to sell their earthly Bungalows and HOUSES to finance CCC ? Very shocking indeed ?
Fr CT2 @ May 16, 2011 9:08 AM
I think all the AP's should go into the world for a "de-programming".They should be employed by a real foul mouthed secular boss- this will surely jolt them into reality/.Christian should be war of this leadership right now- they have got a spirit of religion in them.
Fr CT2 @ May 16, 2011 2:09 PM
The EGM is to ask members to approve an additional RM50m for CCC. Where is the money coming from? As it is the church does not have the money to complete the project. Will CC sell the Damansara church? High possibility of this happening.
A huge portion of this additional expenditure other than inflation may be due to the debacle of having Nam Fatt as the contractor. This is the consequence of not practising due care and checks before the tender was awarded. Who awarded the tender then? Was there a tender board or was it a closed tender or only PG's decision? Until today the church has not satisfactorily explained to the members the cause of this debacle, only skeleton updates by SK and asking for money and more money. Without addressing the many questions that are left unanswered.
Using the pretext of an EGM, PG has now thrown the ball into the members' court! When the finance problem escalates, PG will absolve himself saying it's the members who approved the extra expenditure. Also the cunning fox being a master of deceit may present a disguised agenda to sell the Damansara property to the members. Hence members must tread very carefully when debating any proposals put forth by the church at the EGM. Do not be misled or misguided by the eloquent twister.
Fr CT2 @ May 17, 2011 10:57 AM
THE VICTORY OF CALVARY CHURCH IS IN THE HANDS OF HER UNITED MEMBERS & NOT THE COURT.
This is a call to members of Calvary Church who choose to be bystanders and permit SIN (Evil) within the church.
WAKE UP! LEARN FROM HISTORY!
1. The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for GOOD people to do NOTHING. (Edmund Burke 1729-1797)
2. In Germany, they came first for the communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then one day they came for me and by that time there was nobody left to speak up! (Pastor Martin Niemoller 1892-1984).
3. Let us not forget that evil and deception cannot flourish by itself, it is inevitably intertwined with LYING! Sadly, many accept the lies. Where are the courages men who will not accept the lies nor support it? Let the lie come into the world, even dominate the world, but not through ME! (Alexander Solzhenitsyn (1918-2008).
4. The world is too dangerous to live in - not because of people who do evil, but because of people who sit and LET IT HAPPEN! (Albert Einstein 1879-1955).
There is a urgent challenge to rethink evil that exist with the church and its leadership.
There is evidence to support the fact that the scale and scope of evil has increased in the modern church.
In the Rwandan bloodbath, the church watched as 800,000 Tutsis where slaughtered by the Hutus. Even the West who had stated 'never again' will the civilized world accept another genocide such as the Holocaust respond to the evil in Rwanda. Many chose to be bystanders.
It was only the courage of individuals (not an organisation) that eventually turned the world to see the evil and than the world responded.
I wonder how many of you are BYSTANDERS in the present EVIL within your church?
Perhaps some of you think the Court will settle the matter. I don't think so because whatever the Court says will not resolve the present divide within the congregation. It is a divided church that has given power to the present leaders.
Furthermore, I don't think the Lord will allow a Court judge to usurp His Glory. Otherwise history will say it was the Court (and NOT GOD) that resolved the Calvary saga.
God will not allow man to rob Him of His glory. The Holy Spirit is right now at work in the hearts of many members so that their minds are renewed and they see the Truth.
Only members whose hearts and minds that have been renewed by the Holy Spirit can decide the final outcome of the Calvary saga. Otherwise, even if the Court decides favourably, the church is still divided in hearts and minds.
Let those who have discerned the Truth now pray and intercede that the congregation will take the right course of action to finally resolve the Calvary saga.
Vijay
Fr CT2 @ May 17, 2011 5:24 PM
I sincerely request all members to pray and seek God for guidance and wisdom in making the correct decision this coming EGM. What Anonymous May 17, 2011 10:57am said is true. If we are not careful, PG and the BOD would point their fingers at the members when everything is GONE.
We can no longer depend on any APs, BODs and TTG members to help us this time. The APs and BODs have all sold out their souls to this one man. The majority of the TTG members are not allowed to be there during the EGM. We have to stand up once and for all to ask for more information and transparency with regards to the CCC.
What YAB Mr. Lim Guan Eng quoted in his Wesak Day message is worth pondering:
"Remember the famous quotation by the anti-Nazi and prominent Protestant pastor Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) who said:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out -- Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me -- and there was no one left to speak for me"
The TTG brothers and sisters have done what they needed to do by highlighting and bringing forward the issues of inconsistency, lies, non-transparency in the accounts of the church. Now, it is time for us to take up the cross.
Let us unite our spirit in asking PG and gang to give us the real truth this Saturday.
"WE WANT TRUTH! WE WANT TRANSPARENCY! ENOUGH IS ENOUGH! NO MORE LIES!
Fr CT2 @ May 17, 2011 5:27 PM
EGM 2011 - another blockbuster ?
Will EGM 2011 be a sequel of Dr Guiness in action - an action packed blockbuster PART 2 ? We wait with bated breath the much abnticipated exciting episodes how white man mistreated his native servants, while saving his Prince.
Fr CT2 @ May 17, 2011 10:20 PM
COMMENT ON
PC: can anyone tell us what is Rev.Jerry Chow's status at CC since it is plain now that the Jalan Ampang church has closed down for good? He looks so lost and my son said that now his ministry is "pegang lampu & makan gaji buta saja"
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I think this is a most unfair comment to single this Rev.out alone. Anyway he was never given a chance to take the pulpit since his graduation in 1987- 24 years ago.Yes- our family agrees that he is a lost man at CC and "pegangs lampu-and maybe gaji buta too" but its CC that made him this way.Not once has he ever been appreciated or affirmed by the leadership in CC any way- It was always Rev. Richard Yun,SK or Peter Ong but Jerry was sidelined for whatever reason.Maybe we should vote him in as the future Pastor of CC.Just a compassionate thought.Bye (By the way I know of other city Pastors who are "gaji buta" too.Voice for the Underdog.
Fr CT2 @ May 18, 2011 2:30 PM
Anonymous may 17, 10:57am has indeed raised pertinent to the likelihood that PG may endeavour to sell the Damansara property and thrust the ongoing construction of CCC back to the members.
PG is likely to make an earnest attempt to sell the Damansara property because he did not sweat and toiled for the construction of this church. He was only employed when the church was n solid footing. Furthermore, after 30 years at this church, his misdeeds and wrongdoings were exposed. So, ask yourself this question - has he got any love for CC Damansara?
Btw on Sunday, PG2 repeated many times "your life is your legacy". How true! He leaves a legacy as a senior pastor who had brought many miseries to the church, acts which are contrary to good governance and also one who is hanging on for dear life even though he has lost the love of his sheep.
Fr CT2 @ May 18, 2011 10:28 PM
The above description fits our I have sent my children to another independant church- as my wife and i felt he was not a good influence on the younger people. We have never seen him reading a book or going to BCM library to do research. He just hangs around appearing to be working- but everyone knows he is just a plain lazy man with absolutely no drive.Sigh.
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I think you did the right thing.Better be safe than to be sorry.
Adios
Fr CT2 @ May 19, 2011 1:57 PM
I ALSO MARRIED A PRINCE, YUNO
Last Sunday, PG2 was delivering a message, during which she commented briefly on the Royal Wedding of HRH Prince William (Duke of Cambridge) and Kate Middleton (Duchess of Cambridge). She said Kate was really lucky to cherish the dream of every single girl - that is, to marry a prince.
Then, without being unabashed, ever so proudly PG2 announced the congregation: "I also married a prince!"
may we remind PG2 that it is not fair to HRH Prince William to be in the same light as her husband. For example, Prince William works hard for his money. Being a helicoptor pilot in the Search and Rescue team, he is really exposed to the danger of being killed at the war fronts like Afghanistan. PG1 on the other hand has a very cushy job. Prince William must cut short his honeymoon plans to coincide with restrictions imposed by the military on his annual leave application dates. PG2 does not have such restrictions. Even though he is a member of the British Royalty, Prince William actively involves himself in many charitable activities and othe social commitments, visiting orphanages, homes for the elderlies, etc. Can we say much of this for your "prince" ? We suspect not.
Fr CT2 @ May 19, 2011 10:13 PM
Further points to I ALSO MARRIED A PRINCE, may we add that HRH Prince William earns very great respect from countries all over the world, especially those within the Commonweealth as well as those outside this group of nations - because of his humility, willingness to help others, beside other noble qualities. Quite a galaxy of differences apart from your "prince", PG2 ! Like comparing the frog to the prince. Try swallowing some humble pie first, PG1 and PG2. Your arrogance will bring your downfall, fastest.
Fr CT2 @ May 20, 2011 1:11 PM
Hey Anonymous May 11, 6.02pm
OFF COURSE SP & FAMILY can go Hong Kong for holiday. They are even RICHER THAN ANYONE OF US BY NOW.
BELIEVED THEIR PERSONAL ACCOUNTS HAS MILLION $$$$$ AND NOT JUST IN MALAYSIA. NO SURPRISE in USA and other countries as well. From Day 1, there ISNT CHECK AND BALANCE. He is the Director and Dictatorship.
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